Day, Night, and Dusk - Lycanroc for Smash Bros. Ultimate

[Delzethin]

While it's nice that we have multiple topics to discuss at once, remember to give feedback for our moveset project if you feel you have something worth saying.

If you ask me, I feel like stone edge should present in the moveset in some form considering it's the move that triggers splintered storm shards in the games. While it's by no means a "signature move" of the line it is one of the most powerful in their arsenal, maybe it can be used as an up/forward smash instead of a special? Of course this is only if you plan on making a jab, smash attacks, aerials, etc. which technically are part of the moveset (there are so many different moves you have to come up with stuff for it's almost painful, I still have yet to finish the last few empty slots on the eevee moveset I was working on a while back) but I can understand if you don't think the move fits in in any way, just a suggestion.

My current concept has variants of Stone Edge worked in as up and down smashes, so it's present. That said, could a purer version of the move work as an alternate down special? What could we do to ensure it stood out and felt unique?

I was thinking of having Thrash as mix of Accelerock and Counter Stone, ala Palutena and Joker, where you can hold B to do your counter move and holding it can also allow you absorb multi hitting attacks to increase it’s “fury state” longer, where as without holding it would give you Accelerock, or something similar to it. This way, Down B can be Rock Tomb. As for Stealth Rock I also thought of you being able to release multiple similar to Shiek Neutral B works, I could see where it floats in the air similar to how it does in the anime.

I only really have two complaints. My main problem is Up B. I think it’s fine, but I’m not really a fan of it. I feel like you can do something more interesting with Lycanroc’s recovery other than “it jumps off a rock”. Although, this is something I’ve been thinking about. Other than that, I feel like Counter Stone also feels a bit hashed in? With all of the other moves being able to unlock Dusk’s “fury state” I feel that it sorta of loses Counter Stone’s purpose. Joker’s Rebel’s Guard was what I always sort of depicted Counter Stone, where Lycanroc would absorb attacks and go into his “fury” state depending on how much damage he took, while sacrificing some damage. But unlike Joker’s, it’s once per use. It was also something I saw Midnight doing when I originally saw the idea, where Midnight would be in a state where he would absorb any attacks and unleash his counter move. I feel like Lycanroc getting beat up only to come back stronger is something that they would do.

I’ve actually seen it in some of your video’s comments, “No Guard”, which is an ability Midnight and Dusk have. Although, it’s kinda funny how the name is similar to Joker’s move to.

Combining Counter into Accelerock? The way you described it reminds me of how Suicune's counterattack works in Pokkén, which is intriguing. What does everyone else think, is there something worth looking into here? Would it run the risk of feeling too similar to Rebel's Guard?

The idea of multiple smaller Stealth Rocks could also be interesting, though we need to be absolutely sure such a thing would be balanced. Being able to place multiple trapping/stunning tools at once can get out of hand if it's not handled carefully--just ask anyone who fought against Diddy in Brawl, where he could do some not-all-that-fair stuff with two banana peels.

(Also, only Midnight has access to No Guard. All Dusk Lycanrocs have Tough Claws as their ability.)

There was a little discussion about fighters from already represented series being released separately from the FP without stages or music in the social thread. Now that I think about it, Sakurai might think Lycanroc wouldn't need a home stage and would be one of these separate fighters. We have Pokemon Stadium 1 with its rock-type form plus since Incineroar's home stage is from Punch-Out, they could use Wuhu Island as a stand-in for Alola in general or Gerudo Valley for Vast Poni Canyon.

Eh...I dunno about that, honestly. Both ideas, in fact--I'm not sure they'd add full-fledged newcomers separately from this Fighter Pass or any that come after, and by no means does the content we saw accompany Joker mean the rest of the newcomers must also be from new series. It's easy to feel it must be true, but we've already proved there's more than enough stage and spirit ideas remaining from Gen 7 alone to work with. Statistically speaking, it's never a good idea to rely on a sample size of one to prove anything.

One last thing, would anyone say that e3 is our final chance to get lycanroc announced? Because after e3 sword and shield would gain a lot more traction and gen 7 will be a thing of the past.

I wouldn't say it's our final chance--Sakurai has shown he isn't the type to tailor reveals to fit other games' hype cycles, and considering Gen 8 probably wasn't an option when they picked characters out last November anyway, any news we get regarding Sword and Shield is irrelevant for our chances.

I figure our best bet is sooner rather than later, but we're not out of this until this entire wave is accounted for.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Lycanroc needs to be able to create a wall. What's a rock-type worth if he can't do that?

Some other ideas:

-You know the rock platform Lycanroc summons during his Z-move? He could use that as Up B. A platform where the ground moves can be used on the air, as it were.
-If you're onto this Fury thing, you could have a leaping Up B where, if he has fury, he slams the opponent to the ground after that as a command grab. I think the Pokémon move's name for this is Take Down and it removes the flying-type of those struck by it?
-A counter isn't that unique however you shake it. While it's fine for the actual Smash moveset, it's a tough sell to woo a crowd with, which is what the purpose of this project is, isn't it?

 

[GlaceonGD]

While it's nice that we have multiple topics to discuss at once, remember to give feedback for our moveset project if you feel you have something worth saying.


My current concept has variants of Stone Edge worked in as up and down smashes, so it's present. That said, could a purer version of the move work as an alternate down special? What could we do to ensure it stood out and felt unique?


Combining Counter into Accelerock? The way you described it reminds me of how Suicune's counterattack works in Pokkén, which is intriguing. What does everyone else think, is there something worth looking into here? Would it run the risk of feeling too similar to Rebel's Guard?

The idea of multiple smaller Stealth Rocks could also be interesting, though we need to be absolutely sure such a thing would be balanced. Being able to place multiple trapping/stunning tools at once can get out of hand if it's not handled carefully--just ask anyone who fought against Diddy in Brawl, where he could do some not-all-that-fair stuff with two banana peels.

(Also, only Midnight has access to No Guard. All Dusk Lycanrocs have Tough Claws as their ability.)


Eh...I dunno about that, honestly. Both ideas, in fact--I'm not sure they'd add full-fledged newcomers separately from this Fighter Pass or any that come after, and by no means does the content we saw accompany Joker mean the rest of the newcomers must also be from new series. It's easy to feel it must be true, but we've already proved there's more than enough stage and spirit ideas remaining from Gen 7 alone to work with. Statistically speaking, it's never a good idea to rely on a sample size of one to prove anything.


I wouldn't say it's our final chance--Sakurai has shown he isn't the type to tailor reveals to fit other games' hype cycles, and considering Gen 8 probably wasn't an option when they picked characters out last November anyway, any news we get regarding Sword and Shield is irrelevant for our chances.

I figure our best bet is sooner rather than later, but we're not out of this until this entire wave is accounted for.

Hm, I think it's best to keep stone edge as a smash attack considering the upped damage output of them over special moves, fitting of the strong move title if you ask me. Which smash attack it is, well, I'm not entirely sure. Down doesn't quite sound right to me, and it might have too much range to be a forward, but we seem to agree somewhat on the up smash idea. There was that old idea I had a few weeks back about the animation start up for splintered stormshards, perhaps it could work in a similar way to that?

 

[Cosmic77]

One last thing, would anyone say that e3 is our final chance to get lycanroc announced? Because after e3 sword and shield would gain a lot more traction and gen 7 will be a thing of the past.

It really just depends on how Lycanroc moves forward in the anime and how it's represented in Gen VIII. I really wouldn't be able to give you my definite answer until then, because for all I know, Lycanroc could be one of the Pokémon receiving those alleged "Armored forms".

 

[RandomAce]

Combining Counter into Accelerock? The way you described it reminds me of how Suicune's counterattack works in Pokkén, which is intriguing. What does everyone else think, is there something worth looking into here? Would it run the risk of feeling too similar to Rebel's Guard?

The idea of multiple smaller Stealth Rocks could also be interesting, though we need to be absolutely sure such a thing would be balanced. Being able to place multiple trapping/stunning tools at once can get out of hand if it's not handled carefully--just ask anyone who fought against Diddy in Brawl, where he could do some not-all-that-fair stuff with two banana peels.

(Also, only Midnight has access to No Guard. All Dusk Lycanrocs have Tough Claws as their ability.)

Oh, I didn’t know Dusk didn’t have it.

I realized that I didn’t word what I wanted to say properly. What I really meant was that some aspects of Stealth Rock can function similarly to Shiek’s Needle Attack. Lycanroc is able to charge the move up to 3-4 different shards at the same time that shoot very fast at a downward angle to hit a platform. Rather than have the opponent be attacked by a single spire, the opponent can hit by multiple spires at once. The shards only go in one area, with the only difference being that the range of the trap may be slightly bigger.

A neat little idea I had for an animation is that the shards on Dusk’s neck mane (or whatever Midday has) will glow for every shard Lycanroc charges up, which then fly off from Lycanroc to do the attack. The shards then regrew when Lycanroc is able to perform the move again.

 

[LukeRNG]

I'm not very good with fully understanding movesets mainly because i don't really have a full technical grasp on the gameplay and the mechanics to properly critique the moveset even from a general standpoint (also college is getting very time consuming right now), but in general i like it as is.

 

[Delzethin]

I realized that I didn’t word what I wanted to say properly. What I really meant was that some aspects of Stealth Rock can function similarly to Shiek’s Needle Attack. Lycanroc is able to charge the move up to 3-4 different shards at the same time that shoot very fast at a downward angle to hit a platform. Rather than have the opponent be attacked by a single spire, the opponent can hit by multiple spires at once. The shards only go in one area, with the only difference being that the range of the trap may be slightly bigger.

A neat little idea I had for an animation is that the shards on Dusk’s neck mane (or whatever Midday has) will glow for every shard Lycanroc charges up, which then fly off from Lycanroc to do the attack. The shards then regrew when Lycanroc is able to perform the move again.

Ah, I get it. So you'd be able to prep multiple Stealth Rocks, then set them all at on the same spot? And the more are there, the more hits they deal once they're activated?

Okay, that has potential. But there're also some hangups that we should address. How easy or difficult would it be to prep them? We still want only one stack to be able to be placed at a time (since multiple would be broken, lol), but can we justify being unable to prepare another set while one is active? And would it be overcomplicating a move that already has some complicated details because of how the fury mechanic works?

Lycanroc needs to be able to create a wall. What's a rock-type worth if he can't do that?

Some other ideas:

-You know the rock platform Lycanroc summons during his Z-move? He could use that as Up B. A platform where the ground moves can be used on the air, as it were.
-If you're onto this Fury thing, you could have a leaping Up B where, if he has fury, he slams the opponent to the ground after that as a command grab. I think the Pokémon move's name for this is Take Down and it removes the flying-type of those struck by it?
-A counter isn't that unique however you shake it. While it's fine for the actual Smash moveset, it's a tough sell to woo a crowd with, which is what the purpose of this project is, isn't it?

Summoning a platform to reset your jumps? Kragg's up special does that in Rivals of Aether, among other things. I'm not sure how feasible that is in Smash, though, where recoveries are better overall and ledges can be grabbed, and Kragg's moveset is basically built around using his pillar whereas we have other stuff we want to put more focus on...

What does everyone else think?

Also, you're thinking of Smack Down, which is usually depicted as throwing a weighted stone to knock targets out of the sky, not actually grabbing them. That move was partial inspiration for the down air in my original concept, actually.

It really just depends on how Lycanroc moves forward in the anime and how it's represented in Gen VIII. I really wouldn't be able to give you my definite answer until then, because for all I know, Lycanroc could be one of the Pokémon receiving those alleged "Armored forms".

About that "Armored Forms" rumor...

Serebii Update: This month's CoroCoro states that Armored Mewtwo is an appearance that only appears in the movie, Mewtwo Strikes Back EVOLUTION. Details @ https://t.co/gDbXkHSvkT pic.twitter.com/fbIJPJH9fK

— Serebii.net (@SerebiiNet) May 14, 2019

It's looking increasingly shaky.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Ah, I get it. So you'd be able to prep multiple Stealth Rocks, then set them all at on the same spot? And the more are there, the more hits they deal once they're activated?

Okay, that has potential. But there're also some hangups that we should address. How easy or difficult would it be to prep them? We still want only one stack to be able to be placed at a time (since multiple would be broken, lol), but can we justify being unable to prepare another set while one is active? And would it be overcomplicating a move that already has some complicated details because of how the fury mechanic works?


Summoning a platform to reset your jumps? Kragg's up special does that in Rivals of Aether, among other things. I'm not sure how feasible that is in Smash, though, where recoveries are better overall and ledges can be grabbed, and Kragg's moveset is basically built around using his pillar whereas we have other stuff we want to put more focus on...

What does everyone else think?

Also, you're thinking of Smack Down, which is usually depicted as throwing a weighted stone to knock targets out of the sky, not actually grabbing them. That move was partial inspiration for the down air in my original concept, actually.


About that "Armored Forms" rumor...

Serebii Update: This month's CoroCoro states that Armored Mewtwo is an appearance that only appears in the movie, Mewtwo Strikes Back EVOLUTION. Details @ https://t.co/gDbXkHSvkT pic.twitter.com/fbIJPJH9fK

— Serebii.net (@SerebiiNet) May 14, 2019

It's looking increasingly shaky.

I can see how a Kragg Up Special could take away from the other elements in Lycanroc's moveset, although a pillar could work as an Up Smash instead as to not implement a brand-new type of recovery moves while still paying homage to Lycanroc's territorial fighting style and affinity with the earth, although summoning a rock to Smack Down aerial opponents in a strong meteor smash move could work as an Up Smash too, with the opponent bouncing back on the floor ensuring the move eventualy knocks them upwards. Stuff like that could make Lycanroc's connection to the earth and by extension, rocks, more than a visual quirk. As for Lycanroc's normal moves, I could see the rock mane playing a big part since it stands out in Lycanroc's design. Some Leaf Shield-like move where he moves the rocks on his mane around for a spin could work there.

 

[RandomAce]

Ah, I get it. So you'd be able to prep multiple Stealth Rocks, then set them all at on the same spot? And the more are there, the more hits they deal once they're activated?

Okay, that has potential. But there're also some hangups that we should address. How easy or difficult would it be to prep them? We still want only one stack to be able to be placed at a time (since multiple would be broken, lol), but can we justify being unable to prepare another set while one is active? And would it be overcomplicating a move that already has some complicated details because of how the fury mechanic works?

I would assume it would act like any other chargeable special move. It was would take maybe about some time (1.5 - 2 seconds per shard, maximum of 4.5 - 6 for 3) to be able to charge for more shards, and you’d be able to charge for once after one set is already active, but you wouldn’t be able to send it out yet. As for the fury mechanic. Eh, I doubt it would be over complicated. The fury mechanic is simply meant to be a speed/power comeback boost, and your version has it activated by simply using a special move, which regardless of how much you charge the move, the fury boost will remain the same.

I do have a question about it though. How long does this boost last after activating it using your special move? Is there a cool time? One of the reasons why I had the “Fury” boost only be activated with a counter special is because some of the other specials like Accelerock, Stealth Rock, or even Rock Tomb would be moves that I would assume players would use a lot, and having them constantly be using Lycanroc’s “fury” state even when they don’t want to may be a move set flaw. Unless I’m missing something here.

 

[Delzethin]

I do have a question about it though. How long does this boost last after activating it using your special move? Is there a cool time? One of the reasons why I had the “Fury” boost only be activated with a counter special is because some of the other specials like Accelerock, Stealth Rock, or even Rock Tomb would be moves that I would assume players would use a lot, and having them constantly be using Lycanroc’s “fury” state even when they don’t want to may be a move set flaw. Unless I’m missing something here.

It'd be shorter-lasting than you probably think under most circumstances, at least based on my original build for the concept. Accelerock would only grant about 3-4 seconds normally, Stealth Rock about 5-7, and Rock Climb around...probably also 3-4? Enough to convert a combo on the victim and maybe also pressure their landing (or recover more easily).

So compared to other super modes, as-is it'd be:

Lucario's Aura: Sliding scale based on current %, boosts damage and knockback of attacks
Cloud's Limit Break: Meter-based, charged by dealing/taking damage and by manually charging, boosts mobility stats and enhances the first special you use
Joker's Arsene: Meter-based, charged passively and by taking damage/tanking with Rebel's Guard, adds a simultaneous second hitbox to attacks for greater damage/range without changing frame data and enhances specials
Lycanroc's Fury: Activates when landing certain attacks, easier to activate in comparison but normally shorter lasting except when landing one particular attack (Counter Stone), boosts frame data and enhances one special (Rock Climb)

The idea I've been running with is a super mode that is built from the character's lore and behaves differently than any we currently have on other fighters. Since the glowing eyes appear in the games specifically when a Dusk Lycanroc attacks, I chose to have it kick in when landing certain moves instead of being meter-based, but in exchange it lasts shorter than its counterparts and has to be triggered more often to get significant mileage out of it. Choosing to have it boost frame data in particular--and not damage or stats--came from wanting to build off how Dusk Lycanrocs prefer not to pick fights but retaliate with extreme prejudice when threatened, and having attacks become faster and less laggy with fury active lets the moveset shift from being punish-based normally to hardcore pressure-based for short amounts of time. But then landing a counter on something strong--reacting to something overtly and blindly aggressive--releases the shackles and lets you exert that pressure for longer periods of time (anywhere from around 8-20 seconds, depending on your % and the strength of the move you countered), letting you absolutely hammer opponents' shields and giving you a flat out advantage state at nearly all times until the fury wears off, but you still have to execute and make the most of it.

This would create an interesting dynamic where Lycanroc would have truly explosive damage racking abilities, but your strongest combos would all require landing a couple specific moves first, making the character's neutral overly linear and predictable in the hands of someone who only fishes for Accelerock punishes or throws Stealth Rocks around haphazardly. But mix them up with weaker but less predictable punishes (dash grab dthrow -> stuff, falling nair, etc.) along with knowing when to go for a counter, and it all becomes part of an intricate playstyle all about gaining stage control, cornering opponents, and using movement and passive pressure to make them fear leaving themselves open or pressing a button at the wrong time!

Any changes we make should, ideally, still line up with this playstyle or alter it in a way that still feels true to character. Since we have the fury mechanic as an inherent part of each special, we also want to be careful not to add too much more complexity to each of them or we risk overcomplicating the moves to the point where casual players would be scratching their heads. That said, complexity can work--Bayonetta has like three different gimmicks (Bat Within, Bullet Art extensions, that thing where she can cancel the end of one special into another but the end lag stacks and kicks in once she's done), but they all work together and her moveset still feels intuitive.

I would assume it would act like any other chargeable special move. It was would take maybe about some time (1.5 - 2 seconds per shard, maximum of 4.5 - 6 for 3) to be able to charge for more shards, and you’d be able to charge for once after one set is already active, but you wouldn’t be able to send it out yet. As for the fury mechanic. Eh, I doubt it would be over complicated. The fury mechanic is simply meant to be a speed/power comeback boost, and your version has it activated by simply using a special move, which regardless of how much you charge the move, the fury boost will remain the same.

Ah, so each stack would take a while to prepare. That could add a really interesting dynamic to things if you needed to choose whether to advance and pin opponents down or hang back and prep more Stealth Rocks. Especially if you couldn't use it unless you had at least one stack charged so you'd have to think ahead! And maybe the more stacks, the longer opponents are trapped as each rock comes up to hit them, giving you more time to close the gap and take advantage of the fury boost? We should probably also make it so you can't prep another while one is already placed down, for better balancing.

Though with changes like that, it'd probably warrant moving Stealth Rock to neutral and shifting Accelerock to side (something I've been considering, admittedly), and taking away the "toss the rock forward" part to make it more of a prep-and-place trap rather than something you can also throw at midrange to force opponents to move. Could definitely work, though. What does everyone else think?

 

[RandomAce]

It'd be shorter-lasting than you probably think under most circumstances, at least based on my original build for the concept. Accelerock would only grant about 3-4 seconds normally, Stealth Rock about 5-7, and Rock Climb around...probably also 3-4? Enough to convert a combo on the victim and maybe also pressure their landing (or recover more easily).

So compared to other super modes, as-is it'd be:

Lucario's Aura: Sliding scale based on current %, boosts damage and knockback of attacks
Cloud's Limit Break: Meter-based, charged by dealing/taking damage and by manually charging, boosts mobility stats and enhances the first special you use
Joker's Arsene: Meter-based, charged passively and by taking damage/tanking with Rebel's Guard, adds a simultaneous second hitbox to attacks for greater damage/range without changing frame data and enhances specials
Lycanroc's Fury: Activates when landing certain attacks, easier to activate in comparison but normally shorter lasting except when landing one particular attack (Counter Stone), boosts frame data and enhances one special (Rock Climb)

The idea I've been running with is a super mode that is built from the character's lore and behaves differently than any we currently have on other fighters. Since the glowing eyes appear in the games specifically when a Dusk Lycanroc attacks, I chose to have it kick in when landing certain moves instead of being meter-based, but in exchange it lasts shorter than its counterparts and has to be triggered more often to get significant mileage out of it. Choosing to have it boost frame data in particular--and not damage or stats--came from wanting to build off how Dusk Lycanrocs prefer not to pick fights but retaliate with extreme prejudice when threatened, and having attacks become faster and less laggy with fury active lets the moveset shift from being punish-based normally to hardcore pressure-based for short amounts of time. But then landing a counter on something strong--reacting to something overtly and blindly aggressive--releases the shackles and lets you exert that pressure for longer periods of time (anywhere from around 8-20 seconds, depending on your % and the strength of the move you countered), letting you absolutely hammer opponents' shields and giving you a flat out advantage state at nearly all times until the fury wears off, but you still have to execute and make the most of it.

This would create an interesting dynamic where Lycanroc would have truly explosive damage racking abilities, but your strongest combos would all require landing a couple specific moves first, making the character's neutral overly linear and predictable in the hands of someone who only fishes for Accelerock punishes or throws Stealth Rocks around haphazardly. But mix them up with weaker but less predictable punishes (dash grab dthrow -> stuff, falling nair, etc.) along with knowing when to go for a counter, and it all becomes part of an intricate playstyle all about gaining stage control, cornering opponents, and using movement and passive pressure to make them fear leaving themselves open or pressing a button at the wrong time!

Any changes we make should, ideally, still line up with this playstyle or alter it in a way that still feels true to character. Since we have the fury mechanic as an inherent part of each special, we also want to be careful not to add too much more complexity to each of them or we risk overcomplicating the moves to the point where casual players would be scratching their heads. That said, complexity can work--Bayonetta has like three different gimmicks (Bat Within, Bullet Art extensions, that thing where she can cancel the end of one special into another but the end lag stacks and kicks in once she's done), but they all work together and her moveset still feels intuitive.


Ah, so each stack would take a while to prepare. That could add a really interesting dynamic to things if you needed to choose whether to advance and pin opponents down or hang back and prep more Stealth Rocks. Especially if you couldn't use it unless you had at least one stack charged so you'd have to think ahead! And maybe the more stacks, the longer opponents are trapped as each rock comes up to hit them, giving you more time to close the gap and take advantage of the fury boost? We should probably also make it so you can't prep another while one is already placed down, for better balancing.

Though with changes like that, it'd probably warrant moving Stealth Rock to neutral and shifting Accelerock to side (something I've been considering, admittedly), and taking away the "toss the rock forward" part to make it more of a prep-and-place trap rather than something you can also throw at midrange to force opponents to move. Could definitely work, though. What does everyone else think?

Umm... I said that at first, only for you to ask me about it and respond with the same exact thing I said.

I’m starting to understand a bit of your ideas revolving Lycanroc’s “gimmick”. Although I don’t agree 1:1 with how it can be activated, I can see it still work. But aside from that, that’s all of my thoughts.

All I have left is my moveset, which I admittedly put off a couple days back. It’s kinda daunting at times, especially explaining the special moves, but I have an idea on how to finish it now.

 

[Delzethin]

So while we figure out whether to enact any changes to the specials, how about going over some of the rest of the moveset in the meantime? Would help move things along quicker and get the final artwork out sooner.

For grounded moves:

Jab Combo: A straight jab with one forelimb, then a head swing to strike with the stone mane. Two hits, like with DK/Bowser/etc.
Forward Tilt: Vertical claw swipe with one forelimb. Not the strongest, since, y'know, wolves generally don't rely on their claws when fighting.
Up Tilt: A backflip! Anti-air maneuver with a pretty nice-sized hitbox that even kills at high percents.
Down Tilt: A claw swipe along the ground...or rather, at the ground, kicking up a low dusk cloud that does the brunt of the damage. Based on Sand-Attack, the hitbox would last a while but the move would have more end lag than you'd expect from a tilt.
Dash Attack: A running tackle, based on the exact move you'd think. Sets up juggles, and is capable of netting kills at higher percents.

Forward Smash: Rears back, then lunges forward and bites, generating a fanged energy projection in front that also does a biting motion. Based on depictions of Bite in the Alola anime, it'd be slow to come out and pretty laggy but strong and (thanks to the projection) deceptively disjointed. Very useful for predicting that your opponent will mis-space something.
Up Smash: Rises up and summons a stone stalagmite from the ground! Comes from Stone Edge, of course. Similar to the foward smash in not being the fastest but having power to spare.
Down Smash: Strikes the ground with both forelimbs, creating stone spikes on both sides! Another Stone Edge variant, this one's a bit faster than the other smashes but not quite as hard hitting.

I'm open to suggestions for how to make them better. Bear in mind, we cannot have any biting moves in any spot that is not affected by holding an item, since it'd look weird to have any held item suddenly disappear during the animation and then reappear. Not as easy to handwave away compared to other characters holding items in their hands!

----------

Things have been oddly slow around here the past few days. Do you guys not have much input left to give? Or is something else going on, like studying for finals occupying your time at the moment? RandomAce , how close to finished is your concept?

For the time being, here's what I've had for aerials so far:

Neutral Air: Rolls sideways in midair, creating a ring of stones that spins around perpendicular to the stage. A multi-hir nair that carries opponents along and can even drag then out of the air to stage level to start combos with. WeirdChillFever , this is why I kept quiet before regarding your Leaf Shield-like idea, because there was already something similar to it!
Forward Air: Well, I originally had a bite here last August, but after realizing it wouldn't make sense while carrying an item, it has to be changed. Some kind of claw swipe would work, if we can't think of anything more distinct.
Back Air: A simple, no-frills hind kick. Enough knockback on it to be a go-to kill option despite the lack of disjoint.
Up Air: Swings upward to strike with stone mane, based on a particular clip from the anime. More for comboing than ending stocks.
Down Air: Summons a rock directly below, then shoves it straight down for a spike! Reminiscent of Mega Man's in being strong and active but slow to start, though there could also be a weaker hit as the rock comes together (which wouldn't combo into the spike, because that'd be broken, lol).

 

[Guynamednelson]

Although some people say that we’re too obsessive

If anything I think a certain someone who I shall not mention is too obsessed with Del's supposed obsession with Lycanroc.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

So while we figure out whether to enact any changes to the specials, how about going over some of the rest of the moveset in the meantime? Would help move things along quicker and get the final artwork out sooner.

For grounded moves:

Jab Combo: A straight jab with one forelimb, then a head swing to strike with the stone mane. Two hits, like with DK/Bowser/etc.
Forward Tilt: Vertical claw swipe with one forelimb. Not the strongest, since, y'know, wolves generally don't rely on their claws when fighting.
Up Tilt: A backflip! Anti-air maneuver with a pretty nice-sized hitbox that even kills at high percents.
Down Tilt: A claw swipe along the ground...or rather, at the ground, kicking up a low dusk cloud that does the brunt of the damage. Based on Sand-Attack, the hitbox would last a while but the move would have more end lag than you'd expect from a tilt.
Dash Attack: A running tackle, based on the exact move you'd think. Sets up juggles, and is capable of netting kills at higher percents.

Forward Smash: Rears back, then lunges forward and bites, generating a fanged energy projection in front that also does a biting motion. Based on depictions of Bite in the Alola anime, it'd be slow to come out and pretty laggy but strong and (thanks to the projection) deceptively disjointed. Very useful for predicting that your opponent will mis-space something.
Up Smash: Rises up and summons a stone stalagmite from the ground! Comes from Stone Edge, of course. Similar to the foward smash in not being the fastest but having power to spare.
Down Smash: Strikes the ground with both forelimbs, creating stone spikes on both sides! Another Stone Edge variant, this one's a bit faster than the other smashes but not quite as hard hitting.

I'm open to suggestions for how to make them better. Bear in mind, we cannot have any biting moves in any spot that is not affected by holding an item, since it'd look weird to have any held item suddenly disappear during the animation and then reappear. Not as easy to handwave away compared to other characters holding items in their hands!

----------

Things have been oddly slow around here the past few days. Do you guys not have much input left to give? Or is something else going on, like studying for finals occupying your time at the moment? RandomAce , how close to finished is your concept?

For the time being, here's what I've had for aerials so far:

Neutral Air: Rolls sideways in midair, creating a ring of stones that spins around perpendicular to the stage. A multi-hir nair that carries opponents along and can even drag then out of the air to stage level to start combos with. WeirdChillFever , this is why I kept quiet before regarding your Leaf Shield-like idea, because there was already something similar to it!
Forward Air: Well, I originally had a bite here last August, but after realizing it wouldn't make sense while carrying an item, it has to be changed. Some kind of claw swipe would work, if we can't think of anything more distinct.
Back Air: A simple, no-frills hind kick. Enough knockback on it to be a go-to kill option despite the lack of disjoint.
Up Air: Swings upward to strike with stone mane, based on a particular clip from the anime. More for comboing than ending stocks.
Down Air: Summons a rock directly below, then shoves it straight down for a spike! Reminiscent of Mega Man's in being strong and active but slow to start, though there could also be a weaker hit as the rock comes together (which wouldn't combo into the spike, because that'd be broken, lol).

My input would be minimal, since these moves all look good. However, this moveset mainly shows the *limits* of the quadruped nature of Lycanroc, whereas there are moves to be had where you could show the *strenght* of a quadruped Pokémon. Forward Air for example, could be a move where Lycanroc throws the back of his body into the Z-Axis before the entire backside slamming into the opponent in front of him. Lycanroc requires creativity to work and while I believe your moveset does that well, it does so in a way where it shows that there can be a cool moveset despite the limits, instead of making a full-on feral brawler that works *because* of the quadrupedness.
I'm also unsure of the Forward Smash's bite effect. While it appears in the anime, it's still an eerily magical effect that I personally don't think fits Lycanroc's bruising brawler nature. I'd go for a full-on forward jump instead of a lunge, making it more suited for countering and making it less subtle micro-spacing and more unpredictable and feral in nature. It's his turf and while slow, a jumping bite Forward Smash would pay those that tresspass dearly, if Lycanroc baited-and-ounished accordingly. I'm also still a supporter of Up Smash being a stalagmite that rises up Lycanroc, similar to Kragg's pillar. While it's an idea that's most likely not going to make it into Smash, it does show the potential rock-types can bring and if I recall correctly, we're mostly doing this to show that Lycanroc has the potential to make for a fun set. Genuine support isn't based on realism or "something Sakurai could do", it's about potential and I think if we're going a little out of bounds of the current Smash Bros. precedent, we might woo some crowd with an earthbending, quadruped-smasher.

 

[LukeRNG]

Given that i'm not much help with reviewing the moveset and i'm having a hard time thinking of things to talk about, i then thought about the generations that have no representation at all and whether they will ever get a rep. The only instance that we got a character way after their generation debuted was Pokemon Trainer, who coinsided with the Remakes of generation 1 Firered & Leafgreen.

I'll not count gen 2 given that pichu is already in and i feel there's barely any good candidates from that generation aside from Typhlosion and Heracross (although heracross does sound interesting).
Hoenn and Unova have no characters at all, but at least they do have some content in smash: Hoenn has music and Unova has both music and a stage. I know that not all generations need representation but both gens, especially Unova, have a lot of great pokemon who could be unique and fun.

Given that gen 3 already got it's remakes it's very unlikely to get a gen 3 character unless they do another ballot and Blaziken and/or Sceptile get as high as King K. Rool and Simon; or they finally deside to represent Mystery Dungeon with Grovyle.

So, if they decided to add a gen 5 and/or 3 pokemon in the future, who would you personally want even if they aren't that popular? You can pick up to 3 per gen:

Spoiler: My Picks

Gen 3:
-Grovyle (Mystery Dungeon).
-Sceptile.
-Aggron.

Gen 5:
-Samurott.
-Haxorus.
-Krookodile.

Whether we get more than 1 rep for already represented gens other than gen 1 is yet to be seen, but that could change if lycanroc get's announced.
And why not, let's say who we would want from the represented gens (also 3 per gen):

Spoiler: My Other Picks

Gen 1:
-Gengar.
-Alolan Sandslash.
-Alakazam.

Gen 2:
-Typhlosion.
-Ampharos.
-Umbreon.

Gen 4:
-Garchomp.
-Gallade.
-Gliscor.

Gen 6:
-Noivern.
-Hawlucha.
-Aegislash.

Gen 7:
-Lycanroc.
-Silvally.
-Decidueye.

Only 3 weeks for e3!

 

[GlaceonGD]

Given that i'm not much help with reviewing the moveset and i'm having a hard time thinking of things to talk about, i then thought about the generations that have no representation at all and whether they will ever get a rep. The only instance that we got a character way after their generation debuted was Pokemon Trainer, who coinsided with the Remakes of generation 1 Firered & Leafgreen.

I'll not count gen 2 given that pichu is already in and i feel there's barely any good candidates from that generation aside from Typhlosion and Heracross (although heracross does sound interesting).
Hoenn and Unova have no characters at all, but at least they do have some content in smash: Hoenn has music and Unova has both music and a stage. I know that not all generations need representation but both gens, especially Unova, have a lot of great pokemon who could be unique and fun.

Given that gen 3 already got it's remakes it's very unlikely to get a gen 3 character unless they do another ballot and Blaziken and/or Sceptile get as high as King K. Rool and Simon; or they finally deside to represent Mystery Dungeon with Grovyle.

So, if they decided to add a gen 5 and/or 3 pokemon in the future, who would you personally want even if they aren't that popular? You can pick up to 3 per gen:

Spoiler: My Picks

Gen 3:
-Grovyle (Mystery Dungeon).
-Sceptile.
-Aggron.

Gen 5:
-Samurott.
-Haxorus.
-Krookodile.

Whether we get more than 1 rep for already represented gens other than gen 1 is yet to be seen, but that could change if lycanroc get's announced.
And why not, let's say who we would want from the represented gens (also 3 per gen):

Spoiler: My Other Picks

Gen 1:
-Gengar.
-Alolan Sandslash.
-Alakazam.

Gen 2:
-Typhlosion.
-Ampharos.
-Umbreon.

Gen 4:
-Garchomp.
-Gallade.
-Gliscor.

Gen 6:
-Noivern.
-Hawlucha.
-Aegislash.

Gen 7:
-Lycanroc.
-Silvally.
-Decidueye.

Only 3 weeks for e3!

Don't think I actually like enough pokemon to have three for each generation so I'll just put down the ones I like best I guess.

Spoiler: list i guess

Gen 1:
-Eevee (even though it's never happening I can still hope)

Gen 4:
-Gallade

Gen 7:
-Lycanroc
-Kartana

Yeah all my choices kind of suck but those are the pokemon I like so oh well. Back on topic though I'm looking forward to e3, and I'm really hoping we get more news on SS as well as a our second (and maybe third) DLC fighter, those two things and I'm set. The likelihood of someone I actually want getting in for DLC is low but I won't let that get me down, as long as a character I hate doesn't get in over the ones I've been hoping for all should be well, and there are very few characters I hate.

 

[LukeRNG]

Don't think I actually like enough pokemon to have three for each generation so I'll just put down the ones I like best I guess.

Spoiler: list i guess

Gen 1:
-Eevee (even though it's never happening I can still hope)

Gen 4:
-Gallade

Gen 7:
-Lycanroc
-Kartana

Yeah all my choices kind of suck but those are the pokemon I like so oh well. Back on topic though I'm looking forward to e3, and I'm really hoping we get more news on SS as well as a our second (and maybe third) DLC fighter, those two things and I'm set. The likelihood of someone I actually want getting in for DLC is low but I won't let that get me down, as long as a character I hate doesn't get in over the ones I've been hoping for all should be well, and there are very few characters I hate.

Honestly for some reason i can't bring myself to hate a character. I either like them a bit/a lot or i'm neutral/don't care for them.
It's this mentality that has really helped me get excited for characters i know nothing about and actually made me like Incineroar more (cause previously i was neutral on it like with mewtwo, but then smash comes around and fixes my main gripes with the two being their appearances in the games amoung other things).

Of course that doesn't mean i don't have any characters i'd rather not have in the game at all, but i've yet to have that happen to me.

 

[Cosmic77]

Given that i'm not much help with reviewing the moveset and i'm having a hard time thinking of things to talk about, i then thought about the generations that have no representation at all and whether they will ever get a rep. The only instance that we got a character way after their generation debuted was Pokemon Trainer, who coinsided with the Remakes of generation 1 Firered & Leafgreen.

I'll not count gen 2 given that pichu is already in and i feel there's barely any good candidates from that generation aside from Typhlosion and Heracross (although heracross does sound interesting).
Hoenn and Unova have no characters at all, but at least they do have some content in smash: Hoenn has music and Unova has both music and a stage. I know that not all generations need representation but both gens, especially Unova, have a lot of great pokemon who could be unique and fun.

Given that gen 3 already got it's remakes it's very unlikely to get a gen 3 character unless they do another ballot and Blaziken and/or Sceptile get as high as King K. Rool and Simon; or they finally deside to represent Mystery Dungeon with Grovyle.

So, if they decided to add a gen 5 and/or 3 pokemon in the future, who would you personally want even if they aren't that popular? You can pick up to 3 per gen:

Spoiler: My Picks

Gen 3:
-Grovyle (Mystery Dungeon).
-Sceptile.
-Aggron.

Gen 5:
-Samurott.
-Haxorus.
-Krookodile.

Really easy for me. I've always known who've I wanted for each gen.

Choices are ordered from most to least wanted

Spoiler

Gen 3:

Latias and Latios
Blaziken (just because I think it's way more iconic to Pokémon than Sceptile).
Sceptile

Gen 5:

Zoroark (and I'm still bitter about it...)
Serperior
Genesect

 

[Garteam]

Here's my pick of the litter (in no particular order):

Spoiler

Gen 1: Gengar, Meowth, Cubone
Gen 2: Heracross, Scizor, Espeon/Umbreon team
Gen 3: Sceptile, Blakizen, Metagross
Gen 4: Weavile, Garchomp, Croagunk
Gen 5: Zoroark, Krookodile, Scraggy
Gen 6: Chesnaught, Aegislash, Pangoro
Gen 7: Lycanroc, Decidueye, Mimikyu

Also, is anyone concerned about the absolute radio silence on Sword/Shield? I mean, usually we receive some sort of news as a new gen of Pokemon is being developed. However, its been 3 months since the announcement and we've received absolutely nothing. I'm just really hoping Sword/Shield didn't go the way of Metroid Prime 4.

Hopefully we'll see a little bit more of the game at E3.

 

[Delzethin]

My input would be minimal, since these moves all look good. However, this moveset mainly shows the *limits* of the quadruped nature of Lycanroc, whereas there are moves to be had where you could show the *strenght* of a quadruped Pokémon. Forward Air for example, could be a move where Lycanroc throws the back of his body into the Z-Axis before the entire backside slamming into the opponent in front of him. Lycanroc requires creativity to work and while I believe your moveset does that well, it does so in a way where it shows that there can be a cool moveset despite the limits, instead of making a full-on feral brawler that works *because* of the quadrupedness.
I'm also unsure of the Forward Smash's bite effect. While it appears in the anime, it's still an eerily magical effect that I personally don't think fits Lycanroc's bruising brawler nature. I'd go for a full-on forward jump instead of a lunge, making it more suited for countering and making it less subtle micro-spacing and more unpredictable and feral in nature. It's his turf and while slow, a jumping bite Forward Smash would pay those that tresspass dearly, if Lycanroc baited-and-ounished accordingly. I'm also still a supporter of Up Smash being a stalagmite that rises up Lycanroc, similar to Kragg's pillar. While it's an idea that's most likely not going to make it into Smash, it does show the potential rock-types can bring and if I recall correctly, we're mostly doing this to show that Lycanroc has the potential to make for a fun set. Genuine support isn't based on realism or "something Sakurai could do", it's about potential and I think if we're going a little out of bounds of the current Smash Bros. precedent, we might woo some crowd with an earthbending, quadruped-smasher.

While you want a character's moveset to emphasize their abilities, it's also important to know when to rein yourself in. Smash movesets tend to focus on being clean and coherent, and we want to follow suit for our moveset here to feel authentic. The style is markedly different from Rivals of Aether, for example, which tends to go all out on complex mechanics because its target audience is people who've been playing Smash for a while already.

We also want to be careful about trying too hard. I've seen a lot of movesets that fish for strange or gimmicky stuff out of a belief that outlandish = automatically better, and it leads to character concepts that feel cluttered and unpolished in ways Smash movesets simply aren't. Instead of forcing something in for the sake of being more eye-catching, sometimes it's better to let the moveset speak for itself. I've seen people be turned off by concepts that tried too many gimmicky things at once, and it was because it came off like the creator couldn't make the moveset interesting otherwise and had to rely on gimmicks!

Which is why I'm skeptical of the notion, if that makes any sense. Besides, trying to win the crowd with unrealistically crazy ideas would feel...dishonest.

And for what it's worth, I did work some flash in where it fit. That was one reason why I've been pushing for the forward smash to use the energy projection from the anime--it gives the move a bigger hitbox, has a disjoint on it that allows for punishing mis-spaced attacks even if they have range on them, and alludes to Lycanroc having supernatural powers you wouldn't find in the real world!

So, if they decided to add a gen 5 and/or 3 pokemon in the future, who would you personally want even if they aren't that popular? You can pick up to 3 per gen:

Well, for Gen 3, I was low key pulling for Sceptile back during Smash 4. We didn't have anyone with plant powers on the roster, so the niche was wide open to do unique stuff with. I had this idea of a speedy zone breaker who could also apply traps with Grass Knot, kept in check by being fairly big for its light weight and having mediocre damage output. I've also been floating the idea of Blaziken as an echo fighter of Captain Falcon, with a more berserker-like rushdown playstyle complete with borrowing Flare Blitz from Charizard to use as a side special. Then if we're talking pipe dreams, I have a partial concept for all time favorite Absol built around Forewarn as a neutral special, which would let you foresee one of a few different weather-based disasters that'd then happen a few seconds later!

Gen 5's a little trickier. Main one that comes to mind there is Zoroark, who was itself a victim of bad timing. I've seen people suggest Zoroark would "transform into other fighters", but that misses the point of the whole illusionist deal. Instead, I'd put a focus on deception and keeping opponents guessing, complete with the ability to throw out fake attacks! I also messed around with the of Mienshao as a semi-clone of Lucario once, but in hindsight it wouldn't work very well.


I'll list the grab game stuff later. Need to be careful not to try to do too much at once...

 

[Guynamednelson]

My list would go something like this:

Spoiler

1. Eevee
2. Furret, Ampharos, Marill
3. Plusle/Minun team, Blaziken, Flygon
4. Croagunk, Piplup
5. Osha/Dewott, Whimsicott, Cinccino
6. Hawlucha (if Sakurai had wanted to make a wrestler this whole time, why not this Pokemon? Did he not have access to its concept art?)
7. Mimikyu, Lycanroc, Bewear

 

[LukeRNG]

My list would go something like this:

Spoiler

1. Eevee
2. Furret, Ampharos, Marill
3. Plusle/Minun team, Blaziken, Flygon
4. Croagunk, Piplup
5. Osha/Dewott, Whimsicott, Cinccino
6. Hawlucha (if Sakurai had wanted to make a wrestler this whole time, why not this Pokemon? Did he not have access to its concept art?)
7. Mimikyu, Lycanroc, Bewear

Maybe the wrestler idea came way after smash 4 released. And very likely Hawlucha wasn't fully idealized yet (would've been an awesome addition though).

Here's my pick of the litter (in no particular order):

Spoiler

Gen 1: Gengar, Meowth, Cubone
Gen 2: Heracross, Scizor, Espeon/Umbreon team
Gen 3: Sceptile, Blakizen, Metagross
Gen 4: Weavile, Garchomp, Croagunk
Gen 5: Zoroark, Krookodile, Scraggy
Gen 6: Chesnaught, Aegislash, Pangoro
Gen 7: Lycanroc, Decidueye, Mimikyu

Also, is anyone concerned about the absolute radio silence on Sword/Shield? I mean, usually we receive some sort of news as a new gen of Pokemon is being developed. However, its been 3 months since the announcement and we've received absolutely nothing. I'm just really hoping Sword/Shield didn't go the way of Metroid Prime 4.

Hopefully we'll see a little bit more of the game at E3.

To me they will either give us news next week or at e3. Given that Sun & Moon had no gameplay footage when it was announced in February they might've thought that waiting til e3 was too much and so they showed it in May. Maybe because we already have Sword & Shield Footage they would rather wait till e3, but it wouldn't suprise me if they gave us another trailer right before e3.

 

[Delzethin]

Okay, grab game. Here's what I have currently:

Pummel: Bites down harder on opponent. Pretty high damage but longer than average animation. Graphical effects similar to Charizard's pummel would appear.
F-Throw: Flings opponent forward. Would have a low-ish angle but only moderate knockback. Would be mostly for positioning, or throwing people offstage.
B-Throw: Rears back and dramatically flings opponent backward. More damage and knockback than its forward counterpart, befitting the more exaggerated animation. Possible kill throw?
U-Throw: Lobs opponent up and slightly forward, then summons a rock out of the ground that strikes them from below. Highest damage of the throws. Possible kill throw as well? Though only one of the two should be a kill option, ideally.
D-Throw: Short hops and dramatically flings opponent against the ground, ricocheting them off the stage or platform. Combo throw that leads into various stuff at low-mid percents.

Anyone have any alternative ideas worth talking about?

To me they will either give us news next week or at e3. Given that Sun & Moon had no gameplay footage when it was announced in February they might've thought that waiting til e3 was too much and so they showed it in May. Maybe because we already have Sword & Shield Footage they would rather wait till e3, but it wouldn't suprise me if they gave us another trailer right before e3.

It is weird that we've gone this long without anything so far. The prior two generations started rolling out news around the start of May, so why so quiet now?

I'm not sure we can trust a big blowout to happen at E3, even. Pokémon has traditionally done its own thing for the most part, independent from the rest of Nintendo's news cycles aside from revealing single things during Directs (the Fairy type at E3 2013, Alolan Rattata in the September 2016 Direct, etc). While there's a chance Sword & Shield could be their feature titles this year, I don't think we can pencil that in based on past precedent. Especially since there're other titles that could easily headline instead, like the Link's Awakening remake or the Animal Crossing game we know they're working on.

It's a weird situation.

 

[Cosmic77]

Okay, grab game. Here's what I have currently:

Pummel: Bites down harder on opponent. Pretty high damage but longer than average animation. Graphical effects similar to Charizard's pummel would appear.
F-Throw: Flings opponent forward. Would have a low-ish angle but only moderate knockback. Would be mostly for positioning, or throwing people offstage.
B-Throw: Rears back and dramatically flings opponent backward. More damage and knockback than its forward counterpart, befitting the more exaggerated animation. Possible kill throw?
U-Throw: Lobs opponent up and slightly forward, then summons a rock out of the ground that strikes them from below. Highest damage of the throws. Possible kill throw as well? Though only one of the two should be a kill option, ideally.
D-Throw: Short hops and dramatically flings opponent against the ground, ricocheting them off the stage or platform. Combo throw that leads into various stuff at low-mid percents.

Anyone have any alternative ideas worth talking about?

Seems appropriate. Not overly complicated and still very fitting for Lycanroc, especially his up-throw.

As another possibility, we could also incorporate the other forms through throws if we wanted to. Something akin to Toad and Peach.

It is weird that we've gone this long without anything so far. The prior two generations started rolling out news around the start of May, so why so quiet now?

I'm not sure we can trust a big blowout to happen at E3, even. Pokémon has traditionally done its own thing for the most part, independent from the rest of Nintendo's news cycles aside from revealing single things during Directs (the Fairy type at E3 2013, Alolan Rattata in the September 2016 Direct, etc). While there's a chance Sword & Shield could be their feature titles this year, I don't think we can pencil that in based on past precedent. Especially since there're other titles that could easily headline instead, like the Link's Awakening remake or the Animal Crossing game we know they're working on.

It's a weird situation.

I think Sword and Shield will be one of their headline titles; I doubt it'll be the only game they put a heavy emphasis on. Unless AC gets delayed, I'd imagine that would be something they'd really be pushing at E3.

As far as the silence we've been getting lately, I wouldn't be too concerned. TPC is usually really spontaneous and random when it comes to these Directs. I'm pretty sure SM didn't get it's Direct until less than a week before Nintendo's.

 

[Delzethin]

Okay, so...

Now that most of the moveset has been covered, or at least had the floor open to them, now I think we should double back to the specials to figure out what changes--if any--would work for the concept's benefit.

The main thing is regarding Stealth Rock, with RandomAce 's proposal from last week to change how it functions to be more charge-based and setup...-y.

Current Stealth Rock: Single rock is tossed forward about the distance of a capsule thrown with a tilt input. Embeds in the stage floor or platform if it comes in contact with either. Once placed, activates when an opponent gets too close, rising up and impaling them for a brief moment before then knocking them away. Also sets off a few seconds of fury for you to capitalize on.

Proposed Changes: Stealth Rock would become a charge-and-release move with storable charges. Charging for ~90-120 frames uninterrupted (exact numbers would depend on balance) would prepare one level of charge, for a maximum of four "stacks" prepared at once. Releasing the charge would place all stacks in the ground/platform immediately at your feet, which would activate when opponents get close and proc a few seconds of fury as in the current version. The more stacks are placed, the more hits are dealt when the trap is sprung and the more time the opponent is stuck in place allowing for more of a chance to follow up, and the trap may also gain a larger activation range. This version is not able to unseat midrange walls or create stage control from a distance, but offers more strategic depth due to rewarding planning ahead and is easier to capitalize on when it activates.

I'm intrigued by the potential here, but what does everyone else think? Note that this would probably entail moving Stealth Rock to neutral and Acclerock to side.

Aside from this, another potential change entails reworking Accelerock to also be charge-based and go further the longer you charge (so it'd go from moving like Fox Illusion to moving like Quick Draw, basically) while maintaining the whole "multi-hit whiff punish tool that leads into big combos but is easily punished on block" thing it's already doing. Another possible option is removing Counter Stone entirely and placing something like Rock Tomb at down, re-adding more stage control elements if Stealth Rock is reworked--though then there'd be no move that grants long fury states, and having both Stealth Rock and Rock Tomb controlling stage space could easily get out of hand...

 

[LukeRNG]

I find the new statements from Sakurai to be interesting:
https://smashboards.com/threads/newcomer-dlc-speculation-discussion.453424/page-195#post-23349070

Mainly these points:

Spoiler: Quotes

-DLC is quite risky and quite hard for staff to gather given that DLC always sells less than the base game. And also Nintendo decided ultimate's dlc without the developers knowing. He also dislikes season passes (and to me this says another fighter's pass won't happen).

-It's better to start making a new game than continue updating a finished game.

-He won't do another smash ballot and he doesn't follow most smash reactions/predictions from the fans. (The ballot was basically the only feasible way to know who we wanted).

"- Smash tends to have characters from older series. But just old characters wouldn't make Smash worthy. If there is no new series, then the selection of the characters will be from the old series."

-There were characters above Bayonetta, including Snake, who were negotiated but ultimately rejected. (Don't know if Snake also counts).

-He still wants for smash to be a casual party game with non-competitive tournaments but he knows it's not for him to decide.

And here's one i don't really understand, which could be an odd translation issue (this could be key to Lycanroc's likelyhood):
"- He treats character's individuality as its own game itself. All the unique systems certain characters has are all newly built just for him/her."

I see that, while he doesn't hate dlc practices, he just doesn't want to stay glued to a finished game for too long. Also very interesting point regarding newcomers and how more recent charatcters and franchises are just as important as legacy characters/franchises.
Very bumbed that another ballot won't happen but i can see why. And seeing that he really isn't well informed about which characters we want in the game really makes me wonder how sakurai picks characters other than potential moveset.
Given that he finds dlc to be risky, i can see why 3rd party characters would be more feasible given that they are a bigger deal than first party but i still think we will get at least 1 nintendo owned character in the fighters pass.

 

[Guynamednelson]

I find the new statements from Sakurai to be interesting:
https://smashboards.com/threads/newcomer-dlc-speculation-discussion.453424/page-195#post-23349070

Mainly these points:

Spoiler: Quotes

-DLC is quite risky and quite hard for staff to gather given that DLC always sells less than the base game. And also Nintendo decided ultimate's dlc without the developers knowing. He also dislikes season passes (and to me this says another fighter's pass won't happen).

-It's better to start making a new game than continue updating a finished game.

-He won't do another smash ballot and he doesn't follow most smash reactions/predictions from the fans. (The ballot was basically the only feasible way to know who we wanted).

"- Smash tends to have characters from older series. But just old characters wouldn't make Smash worthy. If there is no new series, then the selection of the characters will be from the old series."

-There were characters above Bayonetta, including Snake, who were negotiated but ultimately rejected. (Don't know if Snake also counts).

-He still wants for smash to be a casual party game with non-competitive tournaments but he knows it's not for him to decide.

And here's one i don't really understand, which could be an odd translation issue (this could be key to Lycanroc's likelyhood):
"- He treats character's individuality as its own game itself. All the unique systems certain characters has are all newly built just for him/her."

I see that, while he doesn't hate dlc practices, he just doesn't want to stay glued to a finished game for too long. Also very interesting point regarding newcomers and how more recent charatcters and franchises are just as important as legacy characters/franchises.
Very bumbed that another ballot won't happen but i can see why. And seeing that he really isn't well informed about which characters we want in the game really makes me wonder how sakurai picks characters other than potential moveset.
Given that he finds dlc to be risky, i can see why 3rd party characters would be more feasible given that they are a bigger deal than first party but i still think we will get at least 1 nintendo owned character in the fighters pass.

It's odd to me that he would think some of these things. Continuing to work on DLC instead of a whole new game means he doesn't need hourly IV drips and is less likely to have his arms stop working, and Corrin, arguably the most "risky" of the DLC characters, was still a decent seller.

 

[RandomAce]

I find the new statements from Sakurai to be interesting:
https://smashboards.com/threads/newcomer-dlc-speculation-discussion.453424/page-195#post-23349070

Mainly these points:

Spoiler: Quotes

-DLC is quite risky and quite hard for staff to gather given that DLC always sells less than the base game. And also Nintendo decided ultimate's dlc without the developers knowing. He also dislikes season passes (and to me this says another fighter's pass won't happen).

-It's better to start making a new game than continue updating a finished game.

-He won't do another smash ballot and he doesn't follow most smash reactions/predictions from the fans. (The ballot was basically the only feasible way to know who we wanted).

"- Smash tends to have characters from older series. But just old characters wouldn't make Smash worthy. If there is no new series, then the selection of the characters will be from the old series."

-There were characters above Bayonetta, including Snake, who were negotiated but ultimately rejected. (Don't know if Snake also counts).

-He still wants for smash to be a casual party game with non-competitive tournaments but he knows it's not for him to decide.

And here's one i don't really understand, which could be an odd translation issue (this could be key to Lycanroc's likelyhood):
"- He treats character's individuality as its own game itself. All the unique systems certain characters has are all newly built just for him/her."

I see that, while he doesn't hate dlc practices, he just doesn't want to stay glued to a finished game for too long. Also very interesting point regarding newcomers and how more recent charatcters and franchises are just as important as legacy characters/franchises.
Very bumbed that another ballot won't happen but i can see why. And seeing that he really isn't well informed about which characters we want in the game really makes me wonder how sakurai picks characters other than potential moveset.
Given that he finds dlc to be risky, i can see why 3rd party characters would be more feasible given that they are a bigger deal than first party but i still think we will get at least 1 nintendo owned character in the fighters pass.

A lot of interesting things to note here. It’s interesting to see how DLC was decided without letting the team know, and that really sucks. I can see why Sakurai doesn’t like season passes either. If he ultimately decided on the DLC plan, I can see him not going for a season pass.

There are a bunch of other things I want to say, but those were off the top of my head, aside from the ballot and how some newcomers were rejected, who they are and why they were turned out is a mystery.

Also, PushDustin seems to have some contradictions with the translations and are doing some himself so I’m look forward to what he has to say.

 

[Delzethin]

Seems like Push is working on translating the original lines, so we'll have more accurate takes on them later.

Given that he finds dlc to be risky, i can see why 3rd party characters would be more feasible given that they are a bigger deal than first party but i still think we will get at least 1 nintendo owned character in the fighters pass.

I don't know, though, you guys know how wary I am of the idea that only the most monumentous of choices have a chance now. I think people are extrapolating too far from Joker (while ignoring Plant, no less). Sakurai wanting to be careful with DLC choices is understandable, but we don't quite know what that entails--the community is caught up on this "only big name third parties are important enough now" idea, and because it's so prevalent, every bit of speculation gets viewed through that lens.

It's odd to me that he would think some of these things. Continuing to work on DLC instead of a whole new game means he doesn't need hourly IV drips and is less likely to have his arms stop working, and Corrin, arguably the most "risky" of the DLC characters, was still a decent seller.

Yeah, there seems to be a discrepancy between some of this and some of what Sakurai has said in the past. We know he enjoyed Smash 4's DLC development, mentioning specifically how there's less to get done and therefore less to be stressed about. We also know he's the type to try and cram as much content into a game as possible. So where does that put us now and what are the odds we get a "Season 2"?

We'll probably have to wait for the re-translation to have a better idea. Especially since Push says some of the translated lines come from articles Sakurai wrote during Smash 4's development, meaning they could be outdated now.

A lot of interesting things to note here. It’s interesting to see how DLC was decided without letting the team know, and that really sucks. I can see why Sakurai doesn’t like season passes either. If he ultimately decided on the DLC plan, I can see him not going for a season pass.

Another example of how the vague wording of the current translation leaves a lot of questions. What did that line about DLC being decided without the dev team mean? Did Nintendo go over Sakurai's head and greenlight DLC before telling him? Did Sakurai himself decide to go forward with DLC without having the chance to talk it over with his inner circle? Were the characters themselves chosen without that extra input, or was it just the decision to have DLC be a thing? We can't tell based on the current translation because there isn't enough to narrow it down.

--------------------------------------------------

Meanwhile, does anyone have any input they want to give toward the specials for the commissioned moveset? Anything you want to say? What about the potential changes to Stealth Rock? RandomAce , how close to done is your own concept?

In addition to those, there's another possible change I want to bring up, this one to the forward tilt:

Currently: A simple forward claw swipe. Not particularly strong, since wolves don't rely on their claws.

Proposed Change: A bite. Reaches forward a ways during it, but doesn't outright lunge. Doesn't have the energy projection the fsmash does, so it lacks a disjoint, but the hitbox would still be decent.

This change would serve two purposes. For one, it'd put a little more focus on Lycanroc's feral side (something WeirdChillFever was worried was getting underutilized, I remember). For two, it'd let us justify making it a kill option at mid-late percents since it'd look strong enough to do so. This was one reason why Kirby's dash attack was changed back to the fireball--the Break Spin from Brawl and 4 doesn't look as strong and so it would've been harder to justify cranking up its knockback values!

The current kill options were feeling kind of sparse (smashes if you get a good read, bair, one of the throws, utilt and uair at high percents), so having a moderate-strength one on a different tilt would give a concept that is supposed to be pretty good at ending stocks further means to do so.

Thoughts, everyone?

 

[LukeRNG]

This suddenly popped up in my searching and no one has made any videos as of me finding this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osoPtXbAUUc
This is legitimately the first time this has happened to me. But it seems we're not getting the big pokemon news at e3.

And it seems we're getting a pokemon press conference tomorrow.
https://twitter.com/Pokemon/status/1133000046381752321

That was quite sudden.

 

[Delzethin]

This suddenly popped up in my searching and no one has made any videos as of me finding this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osoPtXbAUUc
This is legitimately the first time this has happened to me. But it seems we're not getting the big pokemon news at e3.

And it seems we're getting a pokemon press conference tomorrow.
https://twitter.com/Pokemon/status/1133000046381752321

That was quite sudden.

Here's an embedded version of the tweet, for easier reference:

Tune in on June 5 at 6 a.m. PT for roughly 15 minutes of new information on #PokemonSwordShield for #NintendoSwitch in a livestreamed Pokémon Direct presentation.https://t.co/d1Xx3bDbhq pic.twitter.com/sNypwrc09d

— Nintendo of America (@NintendoAmerica) May 27, 2019

In all honesty, I'm not surprised. Well, I'm surprised we went this long without any news, but not surprised that they're doing this separate from E3. Pokémon has always done its own thing when it comes to revealing stuff, usually only showing something minor during Nintendo's main Directs (I think E3 2016 revealed Grubbin? Or was it someone else?). Getting Gen 8 news out of the way before E3 falls right in line with their usual fare.

That said, should be interesting to see what new things we learn! Anything any of you are hoping to see, like new features or new 'mons based on specific animals/concepts?


Meanwhile, this also happened:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Apparently Ultimate's getting updated to v3.1 within the next week. Replays will be invalidated, meaning this is a balance patch.

The big question is whether a new character is coming with it. Considering 2.0 added Piranha Plant and 3.0 accompanied Joker, they seem to be updating to whole numbers when new characters are available. So, odds are...probably not. However, we're working with a small sample size, so it's not out of the question.

This does make me wonder when a potential Smash Direct would be happening, though. If this patch does include a character, it'll have to be beforehand. If it doesn't, you'd figure it won't happen until after the patch has dropped in order to prevent confusion.

Hm...

 

[LukeRNG]

What i'm currently wondering is what's going down with tomorrow's pokemon conference?
If we're getting a direct next week what is there to announce tomorrow?

Here's an embedded version of the tweet, for easier reference:

Tune in on June 5 at 6 a.m. PT for roughly 15 minutes of new information on #PokemonSwordShield for #NintendoSwitch in a livestreamed Pokémon Direct presentation.https://t.co/d1Xx3bDbhq pic.twitter.com/sNypwrc09d

— Nintendo of America (@NintendoAmerica) May 27, 2019

In all honesty, I'm not surprised. Well, I'm surprised we went this long without any news, but not surprised that they're doing this separate from E3. Pokémon has always done its own thing when it comes to revealing stuff, usually only showing something minor during Nintendo's main Directs (I think E3 2016 revealed Grubbin? Or was it someone else?). Getting Gen 8 news out of the way before E3 falls right in line with their usual fare.

That said, should be interesting to see what new things we learn! Anything any of you are hoping to see, like new features or new 'mons based on specific animals/concepts?


Meanwhile, this also happened:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Apparently Ultimate's getting updated to v3.1 within the next week. Replays will be invalidated, meaning this is a balance patch.

The big question is whether a new character is coming with it. Considering 2.0 added Piranha Plant and 3.0 accompanied Joker, they seem to be updating to whole numbers when new characters are available. So, odds are...probably not. However, we're working with a small sample size, so it's not out of the question.

This does make me wonder when a potential Smash Direct would be happening, though. If this patch does include a character, it'll have to be beforehand. If it doesn't, you'd figure it won't happen until after the patch has dropped in order to prevent confusion.

Hm...

And yeah i don't think a character will come with the 3.1 patch. Given that it would be odd for me for them to have a smash direct so close to the pokemon direct.

 

[RileyXY1]

What i'm currently wondering is what's going down with tomorrow's pokemon conference?
If we're getting a direct next week what is there to announce tomorrow?


And yeah i don't think a character will come with the 3.1 patch. Given that it would be odd for me for them to have a smash direct so close to the pokemon direct.

E3 is in a couple weeks. We'll probably get an announcement there. Also, the conference will most likely be about spinoffs, including the mobile game they're licensing out to DeNA.

 

[GlaceonGD]

What i'm currently wondering is what's going down with tomorrow's pokemon conference?
If we're getting a direct next week what is there to announce tomorrow?

One simple answer: probably spin off games. Personally I'd like to see a new mystery dungeon if we are to have some sort of new game revealed tomorrow, but I'm pretty sure almost everyone else wants that too. Remember, the direct said info on sword and shiled not upcoming games in general, that's probably what the press conference is for.

 

[LukeRNG]

One simple answer: probably spin off games. Personally I'd like to see a new mystery dungeon if we are to have some sort of new game revealed tomorrow, but I'm pretty sure almost everyone else wants that too. Remember, the direct said info on sword and shiled not upcoming games in general, that's probably what the press conference is for.

I am a bit concerned with the possibility for a Mystery Dungeon mobile game. They've done quite a bunch as of late along with unnanounced games, and given Mystery Dungeon's popularity it's a thought i wish i didn't have.

 

[Delzethin]

A mix of statistics and spinoff announcements is a pretty safe bet. The way they immediately announced the Sword & Shield Direct certainly seemed like they wanted to get out ahead and say "hey, there's more news about Gen 8 coming on the 5th" specifically because today's press conference won't have any news of the like.

The question then is...what will we see? TPC has been big on mobile spinoffs so we'll probably see one here, but will there be a console spinoff or the like? We haven't had one of those since Pokkén, and it'd be nice to see more of them again.

Maybe that Pokémon x Fire Emblem crossover could happen for real one of these days...

 

[LukeRNG]

After watching the whole thing (which i thought would be 1 hour long) it was more or less what i expected: mobile, business and merch stuff.
Detective pikachu seems to be getting a sequel on switch.
They finally announced pokemon bank's succesor which i'm exited for now that it's no longer limited to a console.
And pokemon masters looks cool i guess (though it's technically the first pokemon game featuring characters from main series with some semblance of voice acting).

 

[Delzethin]

Some notifications for the upcoming patch have been datamined, and there's some...unusual stuff in there.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

There was a problem fetching the tweet

It seems a new amiibo arena mode and VR support are coming, of all things. This is definitely more than I expected from a tenths-place update like 3.1.

So what does this mean for us? It's clear now that no character is coming with this patch, but there's always a chance the devs slipped up and left something in the data that accidentally alludes to someone. Granted, less of a chance since it's already happened once and they'll be taking care not to let it repeat, but the possibility is there. Also, considering the timing of this patch, I'm starting to wonder if monthly-ish updates are going to be a thing now. Perhaps 4.0 will be coming at the end of June or early July?

--------------------------------------------------

I've noticed there haven't been many responses to the moveset overview. Are you okay with the last few updates? Anything you want to bring up?

 

[LukeRNG]

Some notifications for the upcoming patch have been datamined, and there's some...unusual stuff in there.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

There was a problem fetching the tweet

It seems a new amiibo arena mode and VR support are coming, of all things. This is definitely more than I expected from a tenths-place update like 3.1.

So what does this mean for us? It's clear now that no character is coming with this patch, but there's always a chance the devs slipped up and left something in the data that accidentally alludes to someone. Granted, less of a chance since it's already happened once and they'll be taking care not to let it repeat, but the possibility is there. Also, considering the timing of this patch, I'm starting to wonder if monthly-ish updates are going to be a thing now. Perhaps 4.0 will be coming at the end of June or early July?

--------------------------------------------------

I've noticed there haven't been many responses to the moveset overview. Are you okay with the last few updates? Anything you want to bring up?

Give me some time, i'll definitely say something as soon as i finish watching the whole moveset.
And umm... on what page was it again? Kinda lost track, this week was really heavy from college.

 

[Delzethin]

So, while you guys slept and I failed once again to reorient my sleep schedule, some interesting news dropped regarding the anime. Specifically, a Japanese TV guide provided episode names and summaries for the three set for June 16th, 23rd, and 30th:

Episode 1069: Pikachu's Exciting Expedition!
Episode 1070: Gladion & Lillie! Chasing a Father's Phantom!!
Episode 1071: The Curtain Rises! The Alola Pokémon League!!

Seems like the Alola League's opening ceremony is set for the end of this month. We're reaching the endgame, so to speak, and Ash's Lycanroc is still the team ace.

But not only that, the synopsis for the first of these episodes tells us something interesting. You know how there's a time travel episode set for the 9th where Ash meets a younger Kukui, and how some were speculating his Torracat was going to evolve there to inspire Kukui's then-Litten to train harder? Well, according to the news...that doesn't happen.

It really does seem like the apparent Pokémon choice for Ultimate came down to two who are only side characters in the anime (and that's assuming Hau's Dartrix actually evolves, which it probably will) despite Sakurai playing up how important having prominent roles in media and such is back during Smash 4's development. So did his mindset shift in the time since, deciding that being a starter matter more than all else? Or did something else happen?

Like, say, not being able to pick the character who held the same role as Greninja before it and offered unique abilities and a completely untapped element...because the form that was going to get the most focus was still almost a year away from being revealed, its design could still get changed up before then, and they couldn't afford to delay development in order to wait until it was set in stone?

Sure, it's just a theory, but it would line up with what we know of the development process now. And it raises another question: Would they jump at the chance to revisit a concept they were forced to shelve before once DLC rolled around if the window of opportunity was still there?

Give me some time, i'll definitely say something as soon as i finish watching the whole moveset.
And umm... on what page was it again? Kinda lost track, this week was really heavy from college.

Discussion started about 2/3 of the way down the previous page, with post #2,232. It's been scattershot from then on, so you're best off reading up from then to now.