Day, Night, and Dusk - Lycanroc for Smash Bros. Ultimate

Cosmic77

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There's also the slim chance this character is a Gen 8 Pokémon. If not that, then I honestly don't know who else it could besides Amaterasu, Lycanroc, or some other Pokémon. There's just very little reason to choose someone like DH if the character isn't a quad. At the very least, this character isn't a blatant biped.
 

Delzethin

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Let's not get too ahead of ourselves here. The news that Piranha Plant used Bowser Jr. as a base only confirms that Ultimate's DLC is doing so just like Smash 4's did. We still don't know what that means regarding the All-Star Mode glitch. We need further explanation as to whether the glitch is a result of Mii Swordfighter and Duck Hunt also being used as bases for upcoming characters. We don't have an explanation for why Piranha Plant causes the glitch but not Bowser Jr., nor why there isn't any apparent counterpart for Joker. There may be something here, but we must find more evidence.

Anyone have any programmer friends who might be able to explain why the glitch happens?


If this is a sign of things to come, though...then yeah, Duck Hunt being used as a base would make things in-ter-es-ting. None of Piranha Plant's attacks resemble Bowser Jr.'s, hammering in the fact that Bowser Jr. was chosen as a base for the vaguely similar model shape, movement animations, and hurtbox placements. It was easier to use his data as a jumping off point for Plant than it'd have been for anyone else. This means that if Mii Swordfighter and Duck Hunt are indeed being used as bases for DLC characters, then we should expect a midsize swordsman (or other weapon wielder) and a character who relies on quadrupedal movement. Since there're already rumors potentially pointing toward someone who would fit the midsize swordsman mold, that is why this is worth keeping an eye on...as long as we don't go overboard.


But, if this ends up meaning something, there're a few options for quadruped fighters, and all of them have some potential caveats:

Lycanroc - Would the DLC team give Gen 7 another look? The timing of this wave's characters being finalized means it's probably too early for Gen 8, but would they double back?
Amaterasu - Hasn't been active for a while--did she have enough Ballot support to overcome it? Also has to deal with several other Capcom characters like Monster Hunter who could take priority over her.
Poochy - Is the moveset potential even there? Seems to only be brought up in the context of advertising Yoshi's Crafted World or "giving Yoshi another rep", both of which are shaky arguments at best.
Spyro - Unsure if even an option at the moment. His recent revival literally just happened and hasn't made it to the Switch yet. If I remember right, his popularity in Japan is hit-and-miss, especially compared to counterpart Crash.
Eevee - Is currently a Poké Ball summon, and we do not know if summons are an option to become playable. Would be very difficult to implement, as each individual Eeveelution's movepool is on the shallow end of things, with their more unique aspects being tied to each form and unable to transition over.
Someone from Gen 8 - One giant question mark, since we don't even know if Gen 8 is an option right now or if it'll have to wait for a potential Wave 2. Sakurai is known for not jumping the gun on brand new stuff, especially since he regretted doing so with Roy in Melee since he ended up misinterpreting Roy's personality due to changes on Fire Emblem's end that were unable to be accounted for in time by the Melee team. And Roy was just an echo fighter!

Complicated stuff, and that isn't even including the very real possibility that everything surrounding the ASM glitch is all just a red herring.
 
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GlaceonGD

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Eevee - Is currently a Poké Ball summon, and we do not know if summons are an option to become playable. Would be very difficult to implement, as each individual Eeveelution's movepool is on the shallow end of things, with their more unique aspects being tied to each form and unable to transition over.
Being my most wanted character, I have done a lot of research on eevee trying to find a way it could translate to smash. The only thing that trips me up is an up special, there just isn't a good way to make a recovery for eevee without making it quick attack like pikachu/pichu. If the moveset were to be adapted from the let's go games there would be more to work with, given it has a move for every typing of its evolutions and regains access to dig and iron tail. Eevee definitely has the prominence and popularity to be in smash, especially after LGE, but the biggest question is would they do it? Unfortunately, I don't think they will, as it seems that despite all the promotion eevee has received over the past year nintendo has made it clear they don't want it to outshine pikachu. To someone like me seeing eevee as the weakest primary spirit in the entire game is an insult, and the partner eevee spirit only further shows that they do not plan on putting eevee in the game anytime soon. As for the whole eeveelutions as another kind of koopalings thing, I played around with that idea too a while ago, but I think it is far less likely to happen. Sorry for the whole rant here but I just wanted to share my thoughts on the matter.
 
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LukeRNG

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I was about to coment about the posibility of adding the dlc fighters into world of light, but given that piranha plant wasn't added at all, it really lowers the chances of the rest of the dlc to get a special submap in world of light. It could still happen, but it's not a huge necesity.

Anyway, what are other characters you would want from the fighters pass, assuming that Lycanroc is one of them leaving 3 unknown fighters: character Brave and the last 2.
Don't know why but i'm feeling strongly for Sora and Agumon. Maybe kh3 and the fact that i've recently rewatched all digimon seasons. Don't know for the last one.
 
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Graizen

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I was about to coment about the posibility of adding the dlc fighters into world of light, but given that piranha plant wasn't added at all, it really lowers the chances of the rest of the dlc to get a special submap in world of light. It could still happen, but it's not a huge necesity.

Anyway, what are other characters you would want from the fighters pass, assuming that Lycanroc is one of them leaving 3 unknown fighters: character Brave and the last 2.
Don't know why but i'm feeling strongly for Sora and Agumon. Maybe kh3 and the fact that i've recently rewatched all digimon seasons. Don't know for the last one.
Play some Digimon games , you will love it!
 

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I was about to coment about the posibility of adding the dlc fighters into world of light, but given that piranha plant wasn't added at all, it really lowers the chances of the rest of the dlc to get a special submap in world of light. It could still happen, but it's not a huge necesity.

Anyway, what are other characters you would want from the fighters pass, assuming that Lycanroc is one of them leaving 3 unknown fighters: character Brave and the last 2.
Don't know why but i'm feeling strongly for Sora and Agumon. Maybe kh3 and the fact that i've recently rewatched all digimon seasons. Don't know for the last one.
At this point, my other big notables are Geno and...whoever ends up being the frontrunner from Three Houses. The reveal trailer alone hinted at some interesting stuff, though I can't build a concept for anyone until we actually learn more, heh. I wouldn't mind Rex, Isaac, or Krystal, either, though their odds aren't looking too great unless something surprising happens. And who knows, maybe Gen 8 will bring someone interesting, though I stand by believing it was too late for this wave of DLC and needs Wave 2 to be a thing.

And yeah, it's a shame the DLC newcomers aren't being worked into World of Light somehow. It'd have been neat if they had their own separate paralogue dungeons of sorts. Little too much workload for the smaller team left over, I guess.

Being my most wanted character, I have done a lot of research on eevee trying to find a way it could translate to smash. The only thing that trips me up is an up special, there just isn't a good way to make a recovery for eevee without making it quick attack like pikachu/pichu. If the moveset were to be adapted from the let's go games there would be more to work with, given it has a move for every typing of its evolutions and regains access to dig and iron tail. Eevee definitely has the prominence and popularity to be in smash, especially after LGE, but the biggest question is would they do it? Unfortunately, I don't think they will, as it seems that despite all the promotion eevee has received over the past year nintendo has made it clear they don't want it to outshine pikachu. To someone like me seeing eevee as the weakest primary spirit in the entire game is an insult, and the partner eevee spirit only further shows that they do not plan on putting eevee in the game anytime soon. As for the whole eeveelutions as another kind of koopalings thing, I played around with that idea too a while ago, but I think it is far less likely to happen. Sorry for the whole rant here but I just wanted to share my thoughts on the matter.
Would it help if Gen 8 brought a new Eeveelution as prominent as Sylveon was in Gen 6? Worth a shot, right?
 
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Garteam

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I was about to coment about the posibility of adding the dlc fighters into world of light, but given that piranha plant wasn't added at all, it really lowers the chances of the rest of the dlc to get a special submap in world of light. It could still happen, but it's not a huge necesity.

Anyway, what are other characters you would want from the fighters pass, assuming that Lycanroc is one of them leaving 3 unknown fighters: character Brave and the last 2.
Don't know why but i'm feeling strongly for Sora and Agumon. Maybe kh3 and the fact that i've recently rewatched all digimon seasons. Don't know for the last one.
My personal wants are Erdrick, Bandana Dee, and Jill Valentine. I'm also a fan of the idea of Doom Marine, but I really don't know how likely he is at this point.
 
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Cosmic77

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Honestly, I just want some first-parties.

Third-party characters are exciting, but depending on the character and their franchise, I feel like the scope for appealing to hardcore Nintendo fans like myself is much more narrow than adding someone blatantly popular and highly requested like BWD, Waluigi, or Dixie Kong. In other words, Joker is cool, but I've never played Persona 5, nor am I familiar with the series.

Honestly, out of all the rumored DLC charcaters, Steve is the one I'm most excited about, and that's mainly because he hails from a franchise that almost everyone who's picked up a controller would know of.
 
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osby

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iirc, while Duck Hunt mostly moves on his fours, he stands up and uses his front paws in a number of animations, and even his "T-pose" is like of a humanoid, unlike Ivysaur.

It doesn't necessarily have to be a base for a quadrupedal character, though I may be wrong.
 

Cosmic77

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iirc, while Duck Hunt mostly moves on his fours, he stands up and uses his front paws in a number of animations, and even his "T-pose" is like of a humanoid, unlike Ivysaur.

It doesn't necessarily have to be a base for a quadrupedal character, though I may be wrong.
The only thing that I feel comfortable assuming is that this mystery character isn't a true biped like a human. If it was, then I see no reason why the development team would've chosen DH over one of the dozens of other humanoid characters as a reference. It just doesn't make sense.
 

RandomAce

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The only thing that I feel comfortable assuming is that this mystery character isn't a true biped like a human. If it was, then I see no reason why the development team would've chosen DH over one of the dozens of other humanoid characters as a reference. It just doesn't make sense.
Speaking of which.

I heard Bowser Jr. was apparently used for Pirahna Plant. Was there any proof of this?
 
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Delzethin

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iirc, while Duck Hunt mostly moves on his fours, he stands up and uses his front paws in a number of animations, and even his "T-pose" is like of a humanoid, unlike Ivysaur.

It doesn't necessarily have to be a base for a quadrupedal character, though I may be wrong.
On the other hand, they borrow more than just T-poses for these things, if Smash 4 DLC and Piranha Plant are any indication. I think we can safely guess that Plant's T-pose is nothing like Bowser Jr.'s, considering how much lower the former's leaves are to the latter's arms. It seems to be more the overall build and shape of the hurtboxes, and a few very basic animations that they use as a point of reference.

In such a situation, a more typical--albeit toony--quadruped design would be better to reference than Ivysaur's more unusual build/basic animations.

The only thing that I feel comfortable assuming is that this mystery character isn't a true biped like a human. If it was, then I see no reason why the development team would've chosen DH over one of the dozens of other humanoid characters as a reference. It just doesn't make sense.
Right. If they truly are using Duck Hunt as a reference point for a DLC newcomer. We need to remember, this is all still just a theory and we need to seek out potential evidence rather than rest on our laurels. We've seen seemingly airtight theories be ripped to shreds in the past, so it'd pay for us to ensure we know what we're talking about here...and have contingency plans if it ends up just a red herring.

That, and this gives us both a potential lead and something to do, haha.
 
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Garteam

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The Duck Hunt thing is probably a red herring.

Allegedly, the corruptions have something to do with counterfeit SD cards. Apparently, people buying counterfeit SD cards that can't actually contain the data they claim to be able to hold are what causes the glitch. Additionally, someone using one of the cards reported that using Pikachu online caused the glitch.

The only thing going against this is a handful of people who claimed to experience the glitch when the data was on their system memory.
 

LukeRNG

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It seems that the rumors regarding Erdrick being the character brave may be true.

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bta15lBFa00/?utm_source=ig_embed
The game superviser for super smash bros ultimate posted this on his instagram and he has a rather interesting quote: ''The brave's shield''.

This can only be one of two things: he's either toying us with the brave rumor or it's an actual teaser for Erdrick joining the battle.
The question is if the reveal will come in the next direct or a later date and when would the third dlc be revealed.
 
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It seems that the rumors regarding Erdrick being the character brave may be true.

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bta15lBFa00/?utm_source=ig_embed
The game superviser for super smash bros ultimate posted this on his instagram and he has a rather interesting quote: ''The brave's shield''.

This can only be one of two things: he's either toying us with the brave rumor or it's an actual teaser for Erdrick joining the battle.
The question is if the reveal will come in the next direct or a later date and when would the third dlc be revealed.
Except Shinya Kumazaki is a HAL employee, not Sora or Namco. They only work they've done with Smash after Melee is give the okay to make new ones and have Kirby characters in them.
 

RandomAce

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The Duck Hunt thing is probably a red herring.

Allegedly, the corruptions have something to do with counterfeit SD cards. Apparently, people buying counterfeit SD cards that can't actually contain the data they claim to be able to hold are what causes the glitch. Additionally, someone using one of the cards reported that using Pikachu online caused the glitch.

The only thing going against this is a handful of people who claimed to experience the glitch when the data was on their system memory.
So we’re back to Square one?

Kinda sucks that we could potentially loose a lead. I was going to suggest that since Duck Hunt can be seen to be both bipedal and quadrupedal that technically all the forms could be based on it. Although Midnight would probably work better if it was based off of Wolf, but I guess if the team managed to use Bowser Jr. as a base for PP, idk.

Anyways, some rumors are going around that a direct is coming soon from Jon himself. Any thoughts on this?
 

Delzethin

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As it turns out, the talk of the corruption being caused by counterfeit SD cards may itself be a red herring.

https://www.reddit.com/r/NintendoSw...ant_save_corruption_likely_caused_by/efu5tpx/

We have proof of it occurring on a verified legitimate SD card, meaning either the SD cards aren't the cause or there're multiple potential causes. Seems like GameXplain and other places jumped the gun.

So, everyone seeking out answers is back to square one. Further complicating matters is how varied the circumstances are that've randomly caused the corruption:
- Playing as Piranha Plant in All-Star Mode or Classic Mode.
- Playing as Mii Swordfighter or Duck Hunt in Century Smash (the new 100-man mode), which is the part we in particular are interested in.
- And apparently now we have a case where a Pikachu set it off while messing around on the Training stage waiting for Quickplay to find an opponent.

This...is far beyond my area of expertise. Anyone have any idea what could be going on here? Anything that helps or harms or kills the theory? Could there be more than one thing that causes the bug? Either way, it seems we're back at "we don't know if this means anything" for now.

Except Shinya Kumazaki is a HAL employee, not Sora or Namco. They only work they've done with Smash after Melee is give the okay to make new ones and have Kirby characters in them.
Yeah, apparently that tweet really is a red herring, heh. Goes to show what presence Dragon Quest has in Japan, at least, though it seems that post in particular has nothing to do with Ultimate whatsoever. For what it's worth, apparently "Brave" is the title used for the recurring Hero class in the original Japanese versions, which is why talk started up after word got out of what the dataminers uncovered.

Anyways, some rumors are going around that a direct is coming soon from Jon himself. Any thoughts on this?
What did he say? We know he has insider connections, so if he's dropping hints then some kind of Direct is probably in the works, but are you sure he actually said something? You know how easily hearsay spreads around this community, and all.
 
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Delzethin

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Well, at some point this month we'll probably witness the official reveal of Pokémon's 8th generation. Is there anything you've ever wanted to see them take a crack at? Inspiration for a region? An animal or concept that'd make a really good 'mon? A new gameplay mechanic? Let's see your imaginations run wild!

I like how you did not mention Xbox live on Nintendo switch
For one, it was way off topic and there were other things to discuss at the moment.

For two, Xbox Live isn't coming to the Switch in full. Apparently they're just planning on making it so accomplishing things in Nintendo versions of Microsoft games can count toward XBL achievements.

Let's keep things focused, alright?
 
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Well, at some point this month we'll probably witness the official reveal of Pokémon's 8th generation. Is there anything you've ever wanted to see them take a crack at? Inspiration for a region? An animal or concept that'd make a really good 'mon? A new gameplay mechanic? Let's see your imaginations run wild!
Personally I loved the addition of Alola versions and I really hope they do that with every region, adding exclusive versions of Pokemon.

Otherwise is there a robot Pokemon? There are several metal Pokemon and ghosts inhabiting things but I'd be curious about a more traditionally robotic looking Pokemon.
 

MasteRMerF

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I'm really hoping we get Mega Evolutions for more of the starters (specifically Gen 2 since it's my favorite). I loved the addition of the Alolan forms and would love to see them do something similar for Gen 8. I would also really love to see them bring back and improve on some of the mechanics/interactions between you and your starter. For example, in Sun and Moon, we got that cute little ceremony where your starter Pokemon had to "choose" you after deciding which one you wanted. Then, in Let's Go P&E, we got something similar with how they would accompany you out of their Pokeballs and how you could interact with them and see their expressions/dress them up, etc. Lastly, as strange as it may sound, my biggest hope for Gen 8 is a fire horse starter. Ponyta and Rapidash are two of my all-time favorites :077::078: and if the Fire Starter Zodiac Theory has any substance behind it (which, honestly, it probably doesn't), a horse is one of the unused animals at this point. I think a four-legged fire starter would be a nice change, since I don't believe we have one at this time.
 
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For one, it was way off topic and there were other things to discuss at the moment.

For two, Xbox Live isn't coming to the Switch in full. Apparently they're just planning on making it so accomplishing things in Nintendo versions of Microsoft games can count toward XBL achievements.

Let's keep things focused, alright?
I think its plenty topical (for a greater discussion on crossplay and console intigration), but i see it may be too big for you to swallow (even though it's just one small thing (from your veiwpoint), one small thing can be not so small at all), though it is not my place to condone other opinons.

Well, at some point this month we'll probably witness the official reveal of Pokémon's 8th generation. Is there anything you've ever wanted to see them take a crack at? Inspiration for a region? An animal or concept that'd make a really good 'mon? A new gameplay mechanic? Let's see your imaginations run wild!
ASKING ME FOR MY IDEAS, NO ONES EVER BEEN THIS KIND (and i aint being sarcastic, no one wants to hear my ideas)

For one, i think regional varaints bring diversity and new designs without needing to make entirely nee mons, keep doing that, it would be a welcome addition.

Also, i love Mega Evultions, some Pokemon need new Mega Evolutions because they need to stand out.

Also, a big Pokdex would be beneficial to increase intrest becuase NEW Pokemon drive sales.

As for inspiration, well.
bookcover (1).jpeg

bookcover.jpeg
download.jpeg

Minotuaros
 
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I think its plenty topical (for a greater discussion on crossplay and console intigration), but i see it may be too big for you to swallow (even though it's just one small thing (from your veiwpoint), one small thing can be not so small at all), though it is not my place to condone other opinons.
Why would anything to do with Xbox live be relevant to the Lycanroc thread? Sure you could make the very thin argument that it's related to Nintendo which effects Smash or if you think it somehow means a Microsoft character is coming that effects Lycanroc's chances, but if you accept that then whats the point of having individual threads for characters because every thread would just talk about any character because they would be "relevant" as competition.

If you want to talk about the Xbox Live and how that would effect the chances of a Microsoft character take it to a Microsoft character's thread or the general newcomer thread, I'm sure people would be happy to discuss it there.

If you don't feel like doing that feel free to direct message me, I'm always up for a good debate and I don't mind talking about Xbox live.
 

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Even if it may be unlikey given that they didn't put Piranha PLant in world of light, it would still be interesting to talk about a potential world of ight submap for the dlc newcomers from the fighter's pass.
My ideal submap for Lycanroc would start in vast poni canyon, the go to the altar of the sunne/moone and then end in ultra space; it's location would be in the Light Realm near the desert south of the cloud area. It would feature more ultra beast spirits, zeraora and rockruff spirits and even if it's very unlikely, the boss of the submap would be ultra necrozma. If they did add bosses to some of the submaps it would be really great if they were also added to the Galeem/Dharkon final stage.
 
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RandomAce

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Even if it may be unlikey given that they didn't put Piranha PLant in world of light, it would still be interesting to talk about a potential world of ight submap for the dlc newcomers from the fighter's pass.
My ideal submap for Lycanroc would start in vast poni canyon, the go to the altar of the sunne/moone and then end in ultra space; it's location would be in the Light Realm near the desert south of the cloud area. It would feature more ultra beast spirits, zeraora and rockruff spirits and even if it's very unlikely, the boss of the submap would be ultra necrozma. If they did add bosses to some of the submaps it would be really great if they were also added to the Galeem/Dharkon final stage.
I would’ve liked it if each form belong to each of the different maps.

Like Midday for Galeem. Midnight for Dharkon. And Dusk for the last world.

It’s kinda funny how that fits.
 

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So, there're rumors that a Direct may be happening next week.

https://www.resetera.com/threads/ni...to-those-who-wait.98257/page-24#post-17704098

A guy with a history of knowing such things is hinting at the 13th, this coming Wednesday.

Would there be any DLC news if a Direct does happen? Hard to say. Depends on a lot of factors that we've no way of knowing. If this was all originally planned for January but was delayed, then I doubt we'll get anything more. If it's new...I don't know. We might get details/a release date for Joker?

If we end up getting a newcomer reveal, though, you figure it'd be something lower key, a palate cleanser of sorts after Joker. Would be a good spot for a first party newcomer...and, well, who knows, right?


Meanwhile, the Pokémon Twitter account posted this yesterday:


The odds of it meaning anything Smash-related are...pretty much zero, but it's nice to see the line acknowledged amidst all the Kanto talk coming from Let's Go.
 
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So, there're rumors that a Direct may be happening next week.

https://www.resetera.com/threads/ni...to-those-who-wait.98257/page-24#post-17704098

A guy with a history of knowing such things is hinting at the 13th, this coming Wednesday.

Would there be any DLC news if a Direct does happen? Hard to say. Depends on a lot of factors that we've no way of knowing. If this was all originally planned for January but was delayed, then I doubt we'll get anything more. If it's new...I don't know. We might get details/a release date for Joker?

If we end up getting a newcomer reveal, though, you figure it'd be something lower key, a palate cleanser of sorts after Joker. Would be a good spot for a first party newcomer...and, well, who knows, right?


Meanwhile, the Pokémon Twitter account posted this yesterday:


The odds of it meaning anything Smash-related are...pretty much zero, but it's nice to see the line acknowledged amidst all the Kanto talk coming from Let's Go.
I didn't know you were here on Smashboards. Can you make a concept video on Porky please. I don't know whether you think he is likely or not, but can you at least make a video for him?
 
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Delzethin

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So, with the talk shifted to this potential Direct this week, there's something that was brought up elsewhere that has flown under the radar, and it may give us an idea of which characters are available for DLC.

As you guys know, Roy was picked out back in Melee mid-development to add as essentially an echo fighter before the term was invented. His debut game, Fire Emblem: The Binding Blade, was itself in development at the same time, meaning Sakurai had to work off design notes and the like. Then things got further complicated when Roy's game, which was originally planned to be out a few months before Melee, went through delays, eventually not hitting shelves until after Melee.

But what doesn't get talked about much, and something our own Garteam Garteam pointed out a couple weeks ago, is that some major details on Roy as a character were changed in that timespan. To where Roy is actually portrayed wrong in Melee--the loud, hot-blooded fare you're probably used to is actually nothing like he is in his actual game, where he's more calm and intelligent yet thrown into a leadership position he has no experience with due to circumstance. Roy's entire personality changed while his game was still in development, but Melee was not able to adjust in time. Sakurai has even expressed regret over getting Roy wrong back then.

Why does that matter? Because this perfectly explains why Sakurai prefers not to pull the trigger on brand new characters. He wants to wait and ensure everything about them has been finalized so he doesn't interpret them wrong in Smash! Before now, I'd figured he just wanted to make sure their source games didn't flop and that people would recognize the characters, but this make so much more sense from a developer standpoint! It also ties neatly into Rex not making Ultimate's base roster due to the cutoff point being so early this time around...and potentially why Lycanroc may have also been stuck waiting.

"But wait", you may think, "what about Corrin?" That's the thing: remember how we found data after the fact that suggested development on Corrin began later than the rest of Smash 4's DLC, starting only around Spring 2015? Remember how Fire Emblem Fates debuted in Japan in June 2015, just a few months later? In other words, when dev work started on Corrin for Smash, Fates was either wrapping up development or had already gone gold. Everything about Corrin would have been finalized by then.

So how does that matter at all for Ultimate's DLC?

Well...remember how Sakurai said back in November that this wave's characters were officially locked in? If he isn't lying--and, well, he's not the type to outright lie--then these characters were chosen circa November 2018.

So if he doesn't want to jump the gun and end up portraying another character wrong like he did with Roy in Melee, and this wave's DLC picks were finalized three months ago...then how likely is it that we'll be seeing anyone from games debuting in 2019? Even the Three Houses crew could be on shakier ground than I initially thought, and any games set for the end of the year would be at risk of the same types of changes that the Smash team would not be able to take into account.

Wouldn't you say they'd be more likely to look at 2017 and 2018 for first party characters then?

I don't know if it means anything for us, but it's potentially a very big deal, and yet it seems like most speculators are already convinced any first party newcomers must be advertising ploys for games not yet released. Remember when the common narrative was that the likes of Rex and Spring Man would be too late for the base roster? Why has the community done a complete 180 now despite their original theory ending up true?
 
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So, with the talk shifted to this potential Direct this week, there's something that was brought up elsewhere that has flown under the radar, and it may give us an idea of which characters are available for DLC.

As you guys know, Roy was picked out back in Melee mid-development to add as essentially an echo fighter before the term was invented. His debut game, Fire Emblem: The Binding Blade, was itself in development at the same time, meaning Sakurai had to work off design notes and the like. Then things got further complicated when Roy's game, which was originally planned to be out a few months before Melee, went through delays, eventually not hitting shelves until after Melee.

But what doesn't get talked about much, and something our own Garteam Garteam pointed out a couple weeks ago, is that some major details on Roy as a character were changed in that timespan. To where Roy is actually portrayed wrong in Melee--the loud, hot-blooded fare you're probably used to is actually nothing like he is in his actual game, where he's more calm and intelligent yet thrown into a leadership position he has no experience with due to circumstance. Roy's entire personality changed while his game was still in development, but Melee was not able to adjust in time. Sakurai has even expressed regret over getting Roy wrong back then.

Why does that matter? Because this perfectly explains why Sakurai prefers not to pull the trigger on brand new characters. He wants to wait and ensure everything about them has been finalized so he doesn't interpret them wrong in Smash! Before now, I'd figured he just wanted to make sure their source games didn't flop and that people would recognize the characters, but this make so much more sense from a developer standpoint! It also ties neatly into Rex not making Ultimate's base roster due to the cutoff point being so early this time around...and potentially why Lycanroc may have also been stuck waiting.

"But wait", you may think, "what about Corrin?" That's the thing: remember how we found data after the fact that suggested development on Corrin began later than the rest of Smash 4's DLC, starting only around Spring 2015? Remember how Fire Emblem Fates debuted in Japan in June 2015, just a few months later? In other words, when dev work started on Corrin for Smash, Fates was either wrapping up development or had already gone gold. Everything about Corrin would have been finalized by then.

So how does that matter at all for Ultimate's DLC?

Well...remember how Sakurai said back in November that this wave's characters were officially locked in? If he isn't lying--and, well, he's not the type to outright lie--then these characters were chosen circa November 2018.

So if he doesn't want to jump the gun and end up portraying another character wrong like he did with Roy in Melee, and this wave's DLC picks were finalized three months ago...then how likely is it that we'll be seeing anyone from games debuting in 2019? Even the Three Houses crew could be on shakier ground than I initially thought, and any games set for the end of the year would be at risk of the same types of changes that the Smash team would not be able to take into account.

Wouldn't you say they'd be more likely to look at 2017 and 2018 for first party characters then?

I don't know if it means anything for us, but it's potentially a very big deal, and yet it seems like most speculators are already convinced any first party newcomers must be advertising ploys for games not yet released. Remember when the common narrative was that the likes of Rex and Spring Man would be too late for the base roster? Why has the community done a complete 180 now despite their original theory ending up true?
I think you bring up some good points but I think it could still go both ways. Either,
  1. Sakurai, not wanting to make the same mistake, avoids planning around any character who hasn't been released yet. This means any character who isn't already in a game before even possibly as early as 2016 could be safely assumed to be too late. However this wouldn't eliminate characters like Sylux who have been in games before but could still be added as promotion for his supposed expanded role in MP4.
  2. Sakurai, not wanting to make the same mistake, decides to reach out to the developers and works closely with them to make sure he has a good idea of how the character would work. This would be further aided by the fact that with the way DLC appears to be working, with them not starting work on the DLC until the game is out, they would be able to wait and start working on the character until after they have made their debut or at least soon will.
Personally I think that I could see either being possible. However I will add that while he may feel remorse for Roy's portrayal he did after that design Greninja using pre-production designs of the character without knowing how his final design would work, this is why he uses water kunai and his water shuriken doesn't work exactly like it does in game.

Also when looking at the case of Rex, I've said it elsewhere but I think XC2 caught everyone off guard and that no one expected the game to do that well so they wouldn't have considered saving a DLC slot for someone from that game like they might for games they anticipate to do well like Fire Emblem/Metroid/Pokemon.
 

RandomAce

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 29, 2017
Messages
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So, with the talk shifted to this potential Direct this week, there's something that was brought up elsewhere that has flown under the radar, and it may give us an idea of which characters are available for DLC.

As you guys know, Roy was picked out back in Melee mid-development to add as essentially an echo fighter before the term was invented. His debut game, Fire Emblem: The Binding Blade, was itself in development at the same time, meaning Sakurai had to work off design notes and the like. Then things got further complicated when Roy's game, which was originally planned to be out a few months before Melee, went through delays, eventually not hitting shelves until after Melee.

But what doesn't get talked about much, and something our own Garteam Garteam pointed out a couple weeks ago, is that some major details on Roy as a character were changed in that timespan. To where Roy is actually portrayed wrong in Melee--the loud, hot-blooded fare you're probably used to is actually nothing like he is in his actual game, where he's more calm and intelligent yet thrown into a leadership position he has no experience with due to circumstance. Roy's entire personality changed while his game was still in development, but Melee was not able to adjust in time. Sakurai has even expressed regret over getting Roy wrong back then.

Why does that matter? Because this perfectly explains why Sakurai prefers not to pull the trigger on brand new characters. He wants to wait and ensure everything about them has been finalized so he doesn't interpret them wrong in Smash! Before now, I'd figured he just wanted to make sure their source games didn't flop and that people would recognize the characters, but this make so much more sense from a developer standpoint! It also ties neatly into Rex not making Ultimate's base roster due to the cutoff point being so early this time around...and potentially why Lycanroc may have also been stuck waiting.

"But wait", you may think, "what about Corrin?" That's the thing: remember how we found data after the fact that suggested development on Corrin began later than the rest of Smash 4's DLC, starting only around Spring 2015? Remember how Fire Emblem Fates debuted in Japan in June 2015, just a few months later? In other words, when dev work started on Corrin for Smash, Fates was either wrapping up development or had already gone gold. Everything about Corrin would have been finalized by then.

So how does that matter at all for Ultimate's DLC?

Well...remember how Sakurai said back in November that this wave's characters were officially locked in? If he isn't lying--and, well, he's not the type to outright lie--then these characters were chosen circa November 2018.

So if he doesn't want to jump the gun and end up portraying another character wrong like he did with Roy in Melee, and this wave's DLC picks were finalized three months ago...then how likely is it that we'll be seeing anyone from games debuting in 2019? Even the Three Houses crew could be on shakier ground than I initially thought, and any games set for the end of the year would be at risk of the same types of changes that the Smash team would not be able to take into account.

Wouldn't you say they'd be more likely to look at 2017 and 2018 for first party characters then?

I don't know if it means anything for us, but it's potentially a very big deal, and yet it seems like most speculators are already convinced any first party newcomers must be advertising ploys for games not yet released. Remember when the common narrative was that the likes of Rex and Spring Man would be too late for the base roster? Why has the community done a complete 180 now despite their original theory ending up true?
I found that to always be the case. And it’s why I started doubting FE: Three Houses and Gen 8, it feels like they would’ve been too early to consider this time around and especially since this time Incineroar was decided upon around the time SM got released rather than a year ahead like Greninja. It’s also why I think Lycanroc still has a shot.

By the way, I started seeing stuff like PlantGang, and recently ElmaGang (and ElmoGang). How about for us we can do...

LYCANGANG!

And for any specific forms you can have DayGang, NightGang, and DuskGang. This sounds corny as I’m typing it, but it’s official...

I hereby call us, the LycanGang.
 
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LYCANGANG!

And for any specific forms you can have DayGang, NightGang, and DuskGang. This sounds corny as I’m typing it, but it’s official...

I hereby call us, the LycanGang.
If anything we should be a pack rather than a gang.
 

LukeRNG

Smash Apprentice
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I know that the whole Mii swordfighter and Duck Hunt crashing thing is up in the air as to whether or not they were used for newcomers, but i can't believe i didn't see it before: if this was all true and the rumors about Erdrick were true, then why did they pick mii swordfighter instead of someone with a shield like Young Link or regular Link. It's just a thought.

If we want to get international, then Lugarugang would work out well.
I really ''dig'' that one.
 
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