Day, Night, and Dusk - Lycanroc for Smash Bros. Ultimate

[RandomAce]

I think the real reason why Isaac isn't playable is because they didn't have time to make a Golden Sun stage. There were so many stages to remake, 3/4 of the new stages use recycled assets from their base game, and Dracula's Castle has a simple layout and the monsters are just background props. Sure, FE didn't have a stage in Melee and ROB still doesn't have one, but the former wasn't supposed to be true and the latter still has NES stages to use.

That and with how little time there was for new content, and how Isaac would’ve tooken a lot of development time despite being a lesser series, Issac was most likely outprioritized.

I mean, you can tell that the team knew Isaac’s popularity due to the abundant of new spirits for GS, Isaac having a remade AT, AND a Mii Costume. Sadly, it was probably all that they could do and time constraints seems to be what holded him back this time.

At least Lycanroc doesn’t have to worry about another fighter with earth based moves for now.

 

[Guynamednelson]

At least Lycanroc doesn’t have to worry about another fightwr with early based moves for now.

I don't think that would ever be a problem. We believed that Incineroar's gameplay niche was already covered by the likes of Bowser, DK, Ganondorf, and even Ridley, but we still got him.

 

[RandomAce]

I don't think that would ever be a problem. We believed that Incineroar's gameplay niche was already covered by the likes of Bowser, DK, Ganondorf, and even Ridley, but we still got him.

I remember Sakurai made a comment on how some of Incineroar’s moves were already used by other fighters, but Incineroar incorporates them more properly since he’s a wrestler and in a different manner.

Either way, it’s much better in my opinion if a character is the only that can bring something that isn’t seen in Smash. In this case with Isaac being an AT at the moment, Lycanroc is the only one far who can bring anything earth based, so I guess it makes the prospect of adding a Lycanroc much more enticing (along with two of the forms being a quadruped which is something else).

But I agree, other than both having rock moves in their moveset, that’s where their similarities end.

 

[Cosmic77]

I think the real reason why Isaac isn't playable is because they didn't have time to make a Golden Sun stage. There were so many stages to remake, 3/4 of the new stages use recycled assets from their base game, and Dracula's Castle has a simple layout and the monsters are just background props. Sure, FE didn't have a stage in Melee and ROB still doesn't have one, but Melee has some FE stage data left and ROB still has NES stages to use.

The sad truth as to why Isaac isn't playable probably lies closer to the fact that he and Golden Sun itself is rather niche. Even with his popularity, it's hard to prioritize him over other new characters, particularly those who qualify as iconic, relevant, AND popular (Isabelle, Inkling, etc.) Maybe if Sakurai had time to add 15+ characters on the base roster Isaac would fare better.

I remember Sakurai made a comment on how some of Incineroar’s moves were already used by other fighters, but Incineroar incorporates them more properly since he’s a wrestler and in a different manner.

Either way, it’s much better in my opinion if a character is the only that can bring something that isn’t seen in Smash. In this case with Isaac being an AT at the moment, Lycanroc is the only one far who can bring anything earth based, so I guess it makes the prospect of adding a Lycanroc much more enticing (along with two of the forms being a quadruped which is something else).

But I agree, other than both having rock moves in their moveset, that’s where their similarities end.

Even without the emphasis on rocks and earth, Lycanroc has a lot of potential to be unique. His build already sets him apart from virtually every fighter except for Ivy and DH.

Unfortunately, I suppose he was considered a higher risk because of that. I've come to the conclusion that Sakurai would rather choose a safe, highly-promoted Pokemon with an obvious playstyle than someone more unorthodox. In other words, pick the popular bipedal Pokemon who's literally designed to be some type of fighter (martial artist, ninja, wrestler, etc.) over the weird Pokemon with a moveset that can't be coined in 5 minutes.

 

[Guynamednelson]

particularly those who qualify as iconic, relevant, AND popular

You have to remember that the August 8 Direct made people think "irrelevant" was...irrelevant.

• Alucard is a more mainstream Castlevania character, and Simon and Richter appeal to more hardcore fans of the series.
• Chrom was added after Awakening stopped being the latest, most popular FE.
• Dark Samus doesn't matter to any Metroid games besides Prime 2 and 3.
• This is K. Rool's first appearance in a decade.

a safe, highly-promoted Pokemon

While Incineroar was easier to make, we don't think he was the popular, promoted Pokemon. I feel like Smashboards users shill him more than the Pokemon Company.

 

[Cosmic77]

You have to remember that the August 8 Direct made people think "irrelevant" was...irrelevant.

• Alucard is a more mainstream Castlevania character, and Simon and Richter appeal to more hardcore fans of the series.
• Chrom was added after Awakening stopped being the latest, most popular FE.
• Dark Samus doesn't matter to any Metroid games besides Prime 2 and 3.
• This is K. Rool's first appearance in a decade.

I'll concede to DS, but I'd argue Chrom was still very popular and relevant at the time. Though I think Echoes should be viewed differently, as Sakurai doesn't have to spend much time designing them to begin with.

Ridley and K. Rool are a little different though. Despite not being very active, both are extremely iconic characters of a staple Nintendo franchise. Isaac and Golden Sun are peanuts compared to the latter.

While Incineroar was easier to make, we don't think he was the popular, promoted Pokemon. I feel like Smashboards users shill him more than the Pokemon Company.

Compared to Decidueye and Primarina, Incineroar has easily gotten the most promotion of the Gen 7 starters. It's not comparable to Greninja, but still.

 

[RandomAce]

Isaac and Golden Sun are peanuts compared to the latter.



Compared to Decidueye and Primarina, Incineroar has easily gotten the most promotion of the Gen 7 starters. It's not comparable to Greninja, but still.

Apparently the negative reaction to Isaac being an AT was enough to shock Nintendo. I think Isaac’s and GS’s popularity is becoming much more notable.

As for the Gen 7 arguement, that could sadly be true. Honestly, with the lack of develop time and with how Decidueye and Incineroar aren’t really that heavily promoted or stuff that Lycanroc has been, I wonder if if Sakurai’s vision of Lycanroc would’ve tooken a lot more time than the other two and if Lycanroc’s bigger push was also too late to consider, seeing how the line got much more notable in 2017 than in the original release.——————————————————————————————

Something else that came to my mind recently, and it had to do with Decidueye’s and Lycanroc’s “deconfirmation” all the way back in the summer last year.

Unlike Mimikyu who was a pokeball summon, Decidueye and Lycanroc didn’t have anything in the base game to deconfirm them, but yet Vergeben and probably some other insiders were still able to know it wasn’t them. When Sakurai’s statement that Decidueye almost made it came up and was probably in the plans, I think that’s how they figured it out. I heard that some leakers know what happened in the development of Ultimate, and seeing how Lycanroc was deconfirmed in a similar boat to Decidueye...

Could Lycanroc also have been considered and later dropped? I could try to ask a couple of Smash board users here who seem to be in the know if there is anything they know about Lycanroc, but so far this seems to make the most sense for why insiders were able to deconfirm Lycanroc (or maybe something else happened).

 

[Delzethin]

I remember Sakurai made a comment on how some of Incineroar’s moves were already used by other fighters, but Incineroar incorporates them more properly since he’s a wrestler and in a different manner.

Do you have that quote anywhere? That...honestly, reeks of forcing a character in on status and identity alone, and it sounds more like hearsay that'd spread from other fans assuming it must be true.

Unfortunately, I suppose he was considered a higher risk because of that. I've come to the conclusion that Sakurai would rather choose a safe, highly-promoted Pokemon with an obvious playstyle than someone more unorthodox. In other words, pick the popular bipedal Pokemon who's literally designed to be some type of fighter (martial artist, ninja, wrestler, etc.) over the weird Pokemon with a moveset that can't be coined in 5 minutes.

Thing is, we also have several examples where Sakurai chose not to take the safer pick. Like turning down the classic swordsman that people assumed had to be in while giving the all clear to a counterpart chosen specifically because of how many new and interesting things they could do. Or a character from an RPG that, while critically acclaimed, wasn't as mainstream as most of the rest of the roster at the time. Or even having a paid DLC character--albeit one also obtainable for free by early adopters--be specifically a character chosen for how unconventional they are.

Yet we also have a past example of a character less unique than his alternative who got in specifically because he was easier to make. And now we potentially have a second example.

So why such a drastic difference? What causes such opposite outcomes?

To say no less of how fickle and unreliable popularity can be. Case in point, check out Fire Emblem Heroes' yearly Choose Your Legends polls: while a small handful of characters have ranked consistently high, many others vary drastically in position between years due to outside circumstances. Incineroar was and still is as divisive among Pokémon fans as Tharja and Camilla are among Fire Emblem fans, and because of it the whole popularity argument seems more like something spread by people outside the Pokémon fandom attributing it after the fact without being aware of the controversy.

You have to remember that the August 8 Direct made people think "irrelevant" was...irrelevant.

• Alucard is a more mainstream Castlevania character, and Simon and Richter appeal to more hardcore fans of the series.
• Chrom was added after Awakening stopped being the latest, most popular FE.
• Dark Samus doesn't matter to any Metroid games besides Prime 2 and 3.
• This is K. Rool's first appearance in a decade.

For what it's worth, things seem to be a bit different when it comes to third parties (often looking more for iconicness than relevance) and now also echo fighters (chosen for fan appeal since they don't take much dev time). K. Rool is an exception to the rule, but considering he had a mountain of Ballot support, that's probably why.

Something else that came to my mind recently, and it had to do with Decidueye’s and Lycanroc’s “deconfirmation” all the way back in the summer last year.

Unlike Mimikyu who was a pokeball summon, Decidueye and Lycanroc didn’t have anything in the base game to deconfirm them, but yet Vergeben and probably some other insiders were still able to know it wasn’t them. When Sakurai’s statement that Decidueye almost made it came up and was probably in the plans, I think that’s how they figured it out. I heard that some leakers know what happened in the development of Ultimate, and seeing how Lycanroc was deconfirmed in a similar boat to Decidueye...

Could Lycanroc also have been considered and later dropped? I could try to ask a couple of Smash board users here who seem to be in the know if there is anything they know about Lycanroc, but so far this seems to make the most sense for why insiders were able to deconfirm Lycanroc (or maybe something else happened).

Hey, wait a minute. You're right.

According to Vergeben, there were a couple insiders who had ruled out Decidueye and Lycanroc both but were unsure of who actually was in. So how did they know Lycanroc wasn't in...when there isn't a single Lycanroc of any form present in the base game in any way?

Perhaps our theory that Lycanroc was considered early on but had to be dropped because the Dusk form wasn't ready yet may be onto something.

And if that's the case...why not mention Lycanroc when he mentioned Decidueye?

 

[LukeRNG]

Do you have that quote anywhere? That...honestly, reeks of forcing a character in on status and identity alone, and it sounds more like hearsay that'd spread from other fans assuming it must be true.


Thing is, we also have several examples where Sakurai chose not to take the safer pick. Like turning down the classic swordsman that people assumed had to be in while giving the all clear to a counterpart chosen specifically because of how many new and interesting things they could do. Or a character from an RPG that, while critically acclaimed, wasn't as mainstream as most of the rest of the roster at the time. Or even having a paid DLC character--albeit one also obtainable for free by early adopters--be specifically a character chosen for how unconventional they are.

Yet we also have a past example of a character less unique than his alternative who got in specifically because he was easier to make. And now we potentially have a second example.

So why such a drastic difference? What causes such opposite outcomes?

To say no less of how fickle and unreliable popularity can be. Case in point, check out Fire Emblem Heroes' yearly Choose Your Legends polls: while a small handful of characters have ranked consistently high, many others vary drastically in position between years due to outside circumstances. Incineroar was and still is as divisive among Pokémon fans as Tharja and Camilla are among Fire Emblem fans, and because of it the whole popularity argument seems more like something spread by people outside the Pokémon fandom attributing it after the fact without being aware of the controversy.


For what it's worth, things seem to be a bit different when it comes to third parties (often looking more for iconicness than relevance) and now also echo fighters (chosen for fan appeal since they don't take much dev time). K. Rool is an exception to the rule, but considering he had a mountain of Ballot support, that's probably why.


Hey, wait a minute. You're right.

According to Vergeben, there were a couple insiders who had ruled out Decidueye and Lycanroc both but were unsure of who actually was in. So how did they know Lycanroc wasn't in...when there isn't a single Lycanroc of any form present in the base game in any way?

Perhaps our theory that Lycanroc was considered early on but had to be dropped because the Dusk form wasn't ready yet may be onto something.

And if that's the case...why not mention Lycanroc when he mentioned Decidueye?

Speaking of the last part, does anyone know the stats of the fighter Brave. More specifically, does it have data about model size and how it's structured?
Because i remember peope said the character was floaty and to me, Lycanroc could/would seem like the floaty type of character. Of course i don't really see the connection to Brave but perhaps there's something. But if the data is for a bidedal character then nevermind.

Of course i'll try not to get ahead of myself with fake hope. But it is starge Sakurai didn't even mention Lycanroc and people knew that Lycanroc wasn't getting into smash.
But that begs the question: did Nintendo really have a spot for Lycanroc or at least ''Gen 7 Pokemon'' on the list they gave to Sakurai?

 

[Joinallthreacs.smash]

Decidueye wasn’t cut from the game. He was heavily considered as the Gen 7 newcomer before they went with Incineroar.

I know, but he might as well be, because considered is same as cut, kind off, of course they didn't program him, so he wasn't cut

 

[Deleted member]

Do you have that quote anywhere? That...honestly, reeks of forcing a character in on status and identity alone, and it sounds more like hearsay that'd spread from other fans assuming it must be true.

Del, I mean no offense. But it seems like you're acting a little too bitter about Incineroar.

 

[Deleted member]

I remember Sakurai made a comment on how some of Incineroar’s moves were already used by other fighters, but Incineroar incorporates them more properly since he’s a wrestler and in a different manner.

Would be the first I've heard of this, so it's likely you're mistaken.

 

[Deleted member]

Would be the first I've heard of this, so it's likely you're mistaken.

Would it even be that big a deal if it is true? Even when ignoring Echo Fighters characters using moves similar to those of other characters is something that has been happening in Smash Bros. for a long, long time. Incineroar is still his own unique fighter so what's the issue?

 

[Guynamednelson]

Speaking of the last part, does anyone know the stats of the fighter Brave. More specifically, does it have data about model size and how it's structured?
Because i remember peope said the character was floaty and to me, Lycanroc could/would seem like the floaty type of character. Of course i don't really see the connection to Brave but perhaps there's something. But if the data is for a bidedal character then nevermind.

Brave is already said to have a similar height to Ness and Lucas. I could see Midday/Dusk being similar. However, Brave's weight is 101, which I think is a bit too heavy.

The rumors about Brave being a zoner could go either way. Moves like Rock Throw and Earth Power would be appropriate moves for giving Lycanroc a zoner playstyle, but I think this would mean Accelerock would have to be its up-B.

 

[RandomAce]

Do you have that quote anywhere? That...honestly, reeks of forcing a character in on status and identity alone, and it sounds more like hearsay that'd spread from other fans assuming it must be true.

This is what he said, it was in a NE interview or something made in December.

Sakurai: “Incineroar as a fighter – and this goes without saying – is based on pro wrestling. Even though there are already characters that fight similarly to pro wrestlers, there hasn’t been an explicitly pro wrestler character.”

He does state some other stuff like his Alolan Whip and counter amplifier and his more outthere personality, but otherwise it’s pretty cut and dry.

Hey, wait a minute. You're right.

According to Vergeben, there were a couple insiders who had ruled out Decidueye and Lycanroc both but were unsure of who actually was in. So how did they know Lycanroc wasn't in...when there isn't a single Lycanroc of any form present in the base game in any way?

Perhaps our theory that Lycanroc was considered early on but had to be dropped because the Dusk form wasn't ready yet may be onto something.

And if that's the case...why not mention Lycanroc when he mentioned Decidueye?

This is one thing I questioned. It seemed that Verg didn’t want to mention Lycanroc until someone else did. Makes you wonder what really is happening behind the scenes.

I do feel that Dusk and all the stuff that TPC has planned for Lycanroc has already been decided since Base S/M launched, however, I do feel that they were all going to happen long after Sakurai would’ve chosen the Pokémon, so Lycanroc might’ve had to be held off.

Speaking of the last part, does anyone know the stats of the fighter Brave. More specifically, does it have data about model size and how it's structured?
Because i remember peope said the character was floaty and to me, Lycanroc could/would seem like the floaty type of character. Of course i don't really see the connection to Brave but perhaps there's something. But if the data is for a bidedal character then nevermind.

Of course i'll try not to get ahead of myself with fake hope. But it is starge Sakurai didn't even mention Lycanroc and people knew that Lycanroc wasn't getting into smash.
But that begs the question: did Nintendo really have a spot for Lycanroc or at least ''Gen 7 Pokemon'' on the list they gave to Sakurai?

I did consider this, here’s what we know so far.

-Brave’s Height seem to match Ness/Lucas’s height. This fits with Midday and Dusk, since they are quadrupedal and aren’t that tall.

-Brave’s weight is 101, this character is a heavyweight (Between Cloud and Megaman). I doubt Lycanroc will be that heavy, all the forms weigh the same and are little below average.

-Brave doesn’t have a Rapid Jab and Wall Jump, which are two things I don’t expect Lycanroc to have.

-Brave has a speed of 1.74, so he’s pretty average in terms of speed. The closest I see to this is Midnight, since Midday would be part of the fast bunch followed by Dusk, where as Midnight’s speed is more mediocre.

-Brave’s Airspeed is 1.14, which means Brave would move pretty fast in the air, but I heard Brave is also a fast faster. I’m not sure if Lycanroc fits this or not. They seem like pretty grounded creatures.

I haven’t covered all the stats, but these are the more important ones. These are all subject to change though. I do have my doubts that Lycanroc is Brave, because it isn’t a name I see being coded for Lycanroc (if it was that would be one of the biggest plot twists in Smash speculation), but otherwise, some stats do potentially align with what could be given to Lycanroc, and some don’t.
If by some miracle, the stats for Brave start forming to be more like Lycanroc, and ends up becoming Lycanroc, I’m calling that.

 

[Guynamednelson]

I do have my doubts that Lycanroc is Brave

It represents what we'll have to be when Pokemon is the new Fire Emblem to certain people.

 

[GlaceonGD]

Apologies for a lack of recent posting, haven't had much to say or much time to say something. This possible "Brave could be lycanroc" argument is actually something I brought up a few weeks ago though no one commented on it (likely because I put it in a spoiler and it's far too much of a reach), and I'm not too sure how much validity it holds. As stated by RandomAce earlier in the day, only some of these possible stats hit the mark (size being the most notable to me, as it can be one of the biggest potential indicators), and the name "Brave" doesn't exactly make the most sense for lycanroc (most people believe it to be a dragon quest character as you've also already discussed).
But what if you look deeper, do more research, find alternatives to the "this makes sense so therefore it has to be right" argument? Surely they wouldn't make something that obvious, right? Well, as I stated in my older post, Brave is one of the possible natures your pokemon can have in the pokemon games, which gives an increase to their attack stat and decrease to their speed stat. And of course this is the largest reach here but every form of lycanroc has a higher base attack than base speed, which corresponds to attack winning over speed with the Brave nature. As I've said before this is just the byproduct of me overthinking things and likely will not pan out into anything but it's worth mentioning to get people to look at things from a different angle. That's all I've got for now, will try to post more often as I've said I'd do several times before.

 

[Delzethin]

Del, I mean no offense. But it seems like you're acting a little too bitter about Incineroar.

Poor wording on my part. It's more that the apparent quote comes off as a fan misinterpretation of sorts, with the choice of words used seeming like it was viewed through the lens of things we focus so much on in our communities to our detriment. All the talk of "representing" and who "deserves" to get in most just further sparks all the tribalism and toxic behavior that loves to rear its ugly head at the worst times, you know? And the fact that the quote appears painted through that mindset, and not through the stuff Sakurai is more known for saying, is what makes it seem like a misquote.

Does that clear anything up?

Brave is already said to have a similar height to Ness and Lucas. I could see Midday/Dusk being similar. However, Brave's weight is 101, which I think is a bit too heavy.

That thing about Brave having Ness' height turned out to be a red herring, as it seems. Some people modded in some of Brave's parameters to Ike to see what the result would be, and they ended up with a height that was actually just a hair shorter than Lucina. Though since the data is vague in spots and individual stats are subject to change during development (I change stuff all the time with my character concepts, and those aren't even canon), it's difficult to get a perfect read on what we're looking at.

That said...I don't think Brave could be Lycanroc. Though the main red flag for me is the merely above average run speed. Subject to change and all, but I highly doubt they'd add someone with triple digit base Speed in their home series and not make a point of having them be fast on the ground, you know?

Our odds lie better of being one of the characters who hadn't begun development yet at the time that patch was finished.

 

[Cosmic77]

Would it even be that big a deal if it is true? Even when ignoring Echo Fighters characters using moves similar to those of other characters is something that has been happening in Smash Bros. for a long, long time. Incineroar is still his own unique fighter so what's the issue?

It's not so much him using similar moves as it is his competition being so drastically unique in comparison to the rest of the roster.

I'm not upset Incineroar got in Smash, and honestly, I like him more as a character than Decidueye and Mimikyu. That being said, do I think he brings a lot to the table in terms of uniqueness? No, not really. The wrestler shtick is cool, but I stand by the opinion that virtually every other popular Gen VII Pokemon discussed during speculation would've been more original than Incineroar.

Brave is already said to have a similar height to Ness and Lucas. I could see Midday/Dusk being similar. However, Brave's weight is 101, which I think is a bit too heavy.

In my opinion, Lycanroc's weight (should he be a fighter) could range anywhere from lightweight to heavyweight. Smash has a terrible history with following the official heights and weights of Pokemon, and I doubt Lycanroc would fit his description to a T.

Heck, maybe Sakurai will want to make him heavy if his moveset puts a heavy emphasis on rocks.

 

[Deleted member]

Poor wording on my part. It's more that the apparent quote comes off as a fan misinterpretation of sorts, with the choice of words used seeming like it was viewed through the lens of things we focus so much on in our communities to our detriment. All the talk of "representing" and who "deserves" to get in most just further sparks all the tribalism and toxic behavior that loves to rear its ugly head at the worst times, you know? And the fact that the quote appears painted through that mindset, and not through the stuff Sakurai is more known for saying, is what makes it seem like a misquote.

Does that clear anything up?

OH so that's what you meant. My bad. That does indeed clear things up. Sorry for the misinterpretation.

It's not so much him using similar moves as it is his competition being so drastically unique in comparison to the rest of the roster.

I'm not upset Incineroar got in Smash, and honestly, I like him more as a character than Decidueye and Mimikyu. That being said, do I think he brings a lot to the table in terms of uniqueness? No, not really. The wrestler shtick is cool, but I stand by the opinion that virtually every other popular Gen VII Pokemon discussed during speculation would've been more original than Incineroar.

I can agree that Incineroar isn't what I'd call the pinnacle of uniqueness either. Unique enough to get the job done but I can't find myself able to call him one of the most original fighters in Smash Bros.

 

[LukeRNG]

Since there seems to be a bit of smash drought given that we're getting close to the launch of piranha plant, how about we talk a little about our hopes and expectations for generation 8 given the talk surrounding it.

I'm personally not one that asks too much from pokemon games (difficulty, complex or simple stories, in depth or bland characters i like all the games with some big favorites being Soulsilver, Platinum and all of gen 5 & 7) but there's 2 things i would love to see that don't seem too much to ask:

Spoiler: Hopes for gen 8

1-. I want the story to feel personal to the player character, something that deviates from just being the very best.

2-. I want them to expand on features like Pokemon following you and pokemon amie/refresh. Something that makes me get more attached to my pokemon as i travel the new world before me.

This pic encompasses my idea of connecting with your pokemon:

 

[False Sense]

Since there seems to be a bit of smash drought given that we're getting close to the launch of piranha plant, how about we talk a little about our hopes and expectations for generation 8 given the talk surrounding it.

Some of these ideas echo what you already said, but nonetheless:

Spoiler

1.) I'd want to see more of an emphasis placed on player narrative over embedded narrative.

If you don't know, an embedded narrative is the actual "story" of a game, while the player narrative is the story crafted from the player's own experiences, which is unique to every playthrough of a game. Pokemon as a series is largely focused on player narrative; there's more emphasis on the player setting off on their own journey, pursuing their own goals, and catching and training whatever Pokemon they want rather than the "plot" of the game. Some of the more recent generations have toyed with a more story-driven approach to their games, and while those stories have potential, on a fundamental level they aren't fully compatible with Pokemon's player-driven experience.

So I'd really like to see a game that really lets the player narrative shine through. More freedom in how you play the game, more customization, more ways to interact with your Pokemon, more moments like the one at the end of US/UM where your starter pops out right before you enter the league. And less instances where your own story is interrupted by someone trying to blow up the world for increasingly misanthropic reasons.

2.) Never bring back HMs.

I mean, they already removed them before, but I just want to reiterate it. I mentioned that I love to see expanded freedom and customization for players, and HMs restrict that. It really takes the fun out of things when you're moving along with your favorite mons and suddenly your progress is halted because none of your teammates have the right move. At best you can teach it to a mon right then and there and lose one of your moves until you reach the move deleter. At worst you have to actually remove one of your teammates to make progress. It places pretty arbitrary restrictions on what your team composition can look like at any given time, and at the end of the day, it's just not fun.

3.) A manatee Pokemon.

4.) Expanded character customization (maybe even Pokemon customization?)

5.) Walking Pokemon.

6.) Reduced barrier of entry to being competitive (easier grinding, breeding improvements, etc.)

6.) This is more of a general critique of the series' approach to design rather than an explicit wish for Gen 8, but Pokemon does have a recurring issue of implementing cool ideas in one game that aren't carried over to the next ones. Stuff like walking pokemon and the DexNav were great features that just got retired for no real reason. So I guess I'd like to see a game that takes a hard look at the series' history and tries to incorporate the best elements from each entry, and maintains that going forward.

7.) A manatee Pokemon.

 

[LukeRNG]

Some of these ideas echo what you already said, but nonetheless:

Spoiler

1.) I'd want to see more of an emphasis placed on player narrative over embedded narrative.

If you don't know, an embedded narrative is the actual "story" of a game, while the player narrative is the story crafted from the player's own experiences, which is unique to every playthrough of a game. Pokemon as a series is largely focused on player narrative; there's more emphasis on the player setting off on their own journey, pursuing their own goals, and catching and training whatever Pokemon they want rather than the "plot" of the game. Some of the more recent generations have toyed with a more story-driven approach to their games, and while those stories have potential, on a fundamental level they aren't fully compatible with Pokemon's player-driven experience.

So I'd really like to see a game that really lets the player narrative shine through. More freedom in how you play the game, more customization, more ways to interact with your Pokemon, more moments like the one at the end of US/UM where your starter pops out right before you enter the league. And less instances where your own story is interrupted by someone trying to blow up the world for increasingly misanthropic reasons.

2.) Never bring back HMs.

I mean, they already removed them before, but I just want to reiterate it. I mentioned that I love to see expanded freedom and customization for players, and HMs restrict that. It really takes the fun out of things when you're moving along with your favorite mons and suddenly your progress is halted because none of your teammates have the right move. At best you can teach it to a mon right then and there and lose one of your moves until you reach the move deleter. At worst you have to actually remove one of your teammates to make progress. It places pretty arbitrary restrictions on what your team composition can look like at any given time, and at the end of the day, it's just not fun.

3.) A manatee Pokemon.

4.) Expanded character customization (maybe even Pokemon customization?)

5.) Walking Pokemon.

6.) Reduced barrier of entry to being competitive (easier grinding, breeding improvements, etc.)

6.) This is more of a general critique of the series' approach to design rather than an explicit wish for Gen 8, but Pokemon does have a recurring issue of implementing cool ideas in one game that aren't carried over to the next ones. Stuff like walking pokemon and the DexNav were great features that just got retired for no real reason. So I guess I'd like to see a game that takes a hard look at the series' history and tries to incorporate the best elements from each entry, and maintains that going forward.

7.) A manatee Pokemon.

Now that you said manatee, i really want a dolphin and a griffin pokemon. Very suprised they haven't done any of them given their popularity.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Some people modded in some of Brave's parameters to Ike to see what the result would be, and they ended up with a height that was actually just a hair shorter than Lucina.

In that case, is it possible that the height stat is measuring models from head to toe while T posing? Because the Duck Hunt Dog's unanimated model is doing a T pose, although Ivysaur's is not.

 

[DeltaSceptile]

I haven’t posted in while, tbh I just kinda dropped out after the game released. But now I’m back and I gotta say, confirmation that Decidueye was planned before Incineroar makes me hate the bland cat-wrestler even more than I did in his original games. Of course Sakurai always does what’s easy instead of sticking to original plans. Has he ever heard of the phrase “high-risk, high-reward”? Probably not, considering we got Ridley, K. Rool, Simon, Inkling (all pretty good), and then the damn cast of unoriginality and blandness has to show up and ruin it. Decidueye, even though he isn’t Sceptile, I still would say deserved a spot if it had to be an alolan starter. Just like all grass starters though, he just got completely shafted, because just the thought of including an additional grass type starter (though three of them ended up most popular starters of their generation currently) makes him gag. There we go. Another rant. Also what’s this ‘brave’ y’all are on about?

 

[Guynamednelson]

Also what’s this ‘brave’ y’all are on about?

A couple of fighters codenamed "Jack" and "Brave" were added in one of SSBU's patches. We assume Jack is Joker because of Atlus's mascot Jack Frost, but no one knows for sure who Brave is.

 

[GlaceonGD]

Since there seems to be a bit of smash drought given that we're getting close to the launch of piranha plant, how about we talk a little about our hopes and expectations for generation 8 given the talk surrounding it.

I'm personally not one that asks too much from pokemon games (difficulty, complex or simple stories, in depth or bland characters i like all the games with some big favorites being Soulsilver, Platinum and all of gen 5 & 7) but there's 2 things i would love to see that don't seem too much to ask:

Spoiler: Hopes for gen 8

1-. I want the story to feel personal to the player character, something that deviates from just being the very best.

2-. I want them to expand on features like Pokemon following you and pokemon amie/refresh. Something that makes me get more attached to my pokemon as i travel the new world before me.

This pic encompasses my idea of connecting with your pokemon:

Spoiler: Gen 8 hopes

Well, some of mine definitely won't happen but these are the things I'm interested in seeing most with gen 8.
1. A new eeveelution because I require more
2. A rival that at least acts somewhat like a rival instead of saying "Wow you beat me great job!" while smiling
3. An evil team that's actually a major threat (I hated team skull, so that's an example of what I don't want) and aren't complete pushovers
4. Following pokemon is nice, so I'd like to see them continue to bring it back
and 5. Starter pokemon that I can actually stand the design of, as there are very few that I like currently

Not really a major thing, but I'd like to see a type introduced that is weak against normal at some point, because we have types that normal is weak to and types that are effective against normal already. Won't happen, but it would be cool to see.

 

[DeltaSceptile]

A couple of fighters codenamed "Jack" and "Brave" were added in one of SSBU's patches. We assume Jack is Joker because of Atlus's mascot Jack Frost, but no one knows for sure who Brave is.

Ah, sounds like another fun bunch of tinfoil hats from what I’ve seen on the last page. Also that word could mean literally anyone that ever was a protagonist in any game. Lookin at you Third Parties. I’m just gonna go ahead and say it could be Spyro. He was pretty brave and a classic PlayStation character couldn’t hurt anything. But also a thought I’m kind of unsure about is that there is a certain gen 5 pokemon that one might associate with the word: Braviary

 

[LukeRNG]

Ah, sounds like another fun bunch of tinfoil hats from what I’ve seen on the last page. Also that word could mean literally anyone that ever was a protagonist in any game. Lookin at you Third Parties. I’m just gonna go ahead and say it could be Spyro. He was pretty brave and a classic PlayStation character couldn’t hurt anything. But also a thought I’m kind of unsure about is that there is a certain gen 5 pokemon that one might associate with the word: Braviary

The character i've seen most people say is Brave is Erdrick from the Dragon Quest Series.

 

[DeltaSceptile]

Anyway back on the topic of Lycanroc: I’ve noticed several people putting tinfoil hats on in regards to Lycanroc and why there’s been absolutely zero mention of him from Sakurai, even when leakers say that specifically he (and Decidueye) won’t be in the game. Here’s what I think: if all the things people were saying were actually true, then hey, that’s great. Honestly it could make some sort of sense in the long run, but right now I refuse to get my hopes up with dlc, especially when Sakurai said only those have faith that it will be worth it should purchase the fighter pass, sounding like he himself was not satisfied.

 

[LukeRNG]

Anyway back on the topic of Lycanroc: I’ve noticed several people putting tinfoil hats on in regards to Lycanroc and why there’s been absolutely zero mention of him from Sakurai, even when leakers say that specifically he (and Decidueye) won’t be in the game. Here’s what I think: if all the things people were saying were actually true, then hey, that’s great. Honestly it could make some sort of sense in the long run, but right now I refuse to get my hopes up with dlc, especially when Sakurai said only those have faith that it will be worth it should purchase the fighter pass, sounding like he himself was not satisfied.

Either that or he just said it for people that (don't like/hate) certain characters getting into smash.

 

[DeltaSceptile]

Either that or he just said it for people that (don't like/hate) certain characters getting into smash.

Tbh, we shouldn’t exactly have to be worried about dlc fighters being bad, but after the **** show that was the last 2 dlcs of smash 4, one can only hope that it will get better. And I don’t know how Joker is going to end up leading things off. I just hope they use less anime based franchises for characters later in the cycle. It worries me seeing all these anime looking characters getting so much promotion from Nintendo, especially when smash is in the mix.

 

[Joinallthreacs.smash]

Im back, and have some info on Gen 8
It appears that the region is based on the United Kingdom

 

[Joinallthreacs.smash]

Im back, and have some info on Gen 8
It appears that the region is based on the United Kingdom

HOW THE HELL DID IT QUADRUPLE POST

 

[RandomAce]

Im back, and have some info on Gen 8
It appears that the region is based on the United Kingdom

Do you have any link on where you heard this?

 

[RileyXY1]

Do you have any link on where you heard this?

It's unconfirmed information based on coincidences and fake leaks. Don't buy it.

 

[Garteam]

Since we're saying Gen 8 hopes:
-A New Type, preferably Light or Sound. Really, anything that would balance out Fairies
-More regional variants and Megas. Although, I do hope they get a little bit more creative with the regional variants, it was kinda lame to see so many of them be Dark types. I want crazy ideas like Ice Vulpix and Electric Geodude.
-More creativity in the final forms of the starters. I'm kind of sick of starters based on basic character archetypes. Gen 4 gave us starters based on a North American Indigenous creation myth, a character from a Chinese novel, and a French emperor from the early 19th century.
-Amiibo support. Getting the Pokemon with a moveset based on their Smash incarnation would be nice.
-A Meercat Pokemon
-A Grass/Fire Pokemon (it surprises me that there still isn't one)
-The Villain team just being a crime syndicate, rather than a massive, world-ending threat (I think Team Skull was a good step in this direction)
-Making the structure of the game less linear. I think Gen 1 is actually a good example of this, as you're free to do gyms 4,5,6, and 7 in basically any order that you want. If they really want to shake things up, do what Crystal Clear did and have you do gyms in any order with proper level scaling.

 

[LukeRNG]

Tbh, we shouldn’t exactly have to be worried about dlc fighters being bad, but after the **** show that was the last 2 dlcs of smash 4, one can only hope that it will get better. And I don’t know how Joker is going to end up leading things off. I just hope they use less anime based franchises for characters later in the cycle. It worries me seeing all these anime looking characters getting so much promotion from Nintendo, especially when smash is in the mix.

Well, i mean, it's japan we're talking about. And tbh, i was never a fan of people diminishing characters only for their aesthetic and appearance.
For example, too many anime characters, too many sword users, etc. But i do get that a lot of video games don't really have that japanese aesthetic to it and that there's people that don't give a damn about these characters, but i don't think every dlc will be in that similar aesthetic.
And while i didn't care for Corrin & Bayonetta, i was in a tired state from hearing everyone not shut up about King K Rool, Dixie Kong, Shantae, Shovel Knight, etc. and how i would gladly take anyone else. And thanks to that i did get excited for both characters but i understood the anger many fans had for both picks, especially given that now we know that bayonetta winning the ballot was a total lie.

 

[DeltaSceptile]

And thanks to that i did get excited for both characters but i understood the anger many fans had for both picks, especially given that now we know that bayonetta winning the ballot was a total lie.

We all know the winner of the ballot *not surprisingly enough* was either K. Rool or Ridley. Literally winning that ballot was the thing that ever would’ve convinced anyone from Nintendo to bring Rool back. But I get what you mean. I start despising certain characters too after they get mentioned so often. That’s literally the only reason I hate Incineroar (other than just being a weak starter pick in general).

 

[Joinallthreacs.smash]

That’s literally the only reason I hate Incineroar (other than just being a weak starter pick in general).

AT LEAST HES NOT EMBOAR