Day, Night, and Dusk - Lycanroc for Smash Bros. Ultimate

[Joinallthreacs.smash]

Since there has been a lot of discussion about getting a Dragon Quest Character into smash, namely Erdrick (something that would go along with Vergeben's claims of another Square Enix rep), i decided to look more into the character and what i found out was how much i underestimated Dragon Quest's popularity in japan. Namely how the release of the earlier dragon quest games were just as big if not bigger than pokemon itself at launch. And a lot of adults would recognise dragon quest before other gaming characters or franchises. So much so that Erdrick, from what i've seen, has more right to be in smash than Cloud, especially since it was the first 3 Dragon Quest games that made that huge impact in Japan and was basically the birth of the rpg genre, before Final Fantasy existed. And of course because Cloud isn't related to nintendo directly.

And Erdrick is the icon of the 3 dragon quest games: being a legend in the first 2 games and then the main protagonist in the 3rd. So Erdrick is to Japan what Simon Belmont is to us.

Hmm, then that warannts him a spot, so he would generate some sales.

Now something i want to talk about

Every fighter will most likely come with a few spirits, so for Joker, Ederick and Steve i will lay out what Spirits they could bring (assuming Steve and Ederick make it)

Joker would come with Yu and Jack Frost Spirits (along with others)

Ederick would come with Lumminary, Slime and Bianca (and maybe more)

Steve would come with (not according to leak details), Banjo, Creeper and Joana Dark spirits (along with others)

Who do think would come with Lycanroc

 

[Guynamednelson]

Who do think would come with Lycanroc

Given the lack of USUM content besides the 8th Pokemon Trainer being based off the Ultra female trainer, I would assume Lycanroc would come with spirits for things like Poipole, Dusk/Dawn/Ultra Necrozma, Zeraora.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Who do think would come with Lycanroc

Given the lack of USUM content besides the 8th Pokemon Trainer being based off the Ultra female trainer, I would assume Lycanroc would come with spirits for things like Poipole, Dusk/Dawn/Ultra Necrozma, Zeraora.

Also, how did I double post? I don't know if this is my mouse or Smashboards screwing up.

 

[RandomAce]

Who do think would come with Lycanroc

Along with the USUM spirits that G Guynamednelson mentioned, I think some of the dog Pokémon that we mentioned a while back could also work if they aren’t in Smash already.

So stuff like Houndoom, Arcanine, and Manetric.

 

[Joinallthreacs.smash]

Given the lack of USUM content besides the 8th Pokemon Trainer being based off the Ultra female trainer, I would assume Lycanroc would come with spirits for things like Poipole, Dusk/Dawn/Ultra Necrozma, Zeraora.

Also, how did I double post? I don't know if this is my mouse or Smashboards screwing up.

This happens sometimes to me, i just ignore it.

Also pretty much what i was thinking, along with Midday and Midnight Spirits to go with Lycanroc

 

[Delzethin]

Along with the USUM spirits that G Guynamednelson mentioned, I think some of the dog Pokémon that we mentioned a while back could also work if they aren’t in Smash already.

So stuff like Houndoom, Arcanine, and Manetric.

Interestingly enough, we already have Houndoom and Arcanine spirits. There're actually a decent amount of quadrupeds who had to awkwardly use a bipedal character that may not have fit them the best because the only quadrupeds right now (Duck Hunt and Ivysaur) fit even less.

 

[Garteam]

Hmm, then that warannts him a spot, so he would generate some sales.

Now something i want to talk about

Every fighter will most likely come with a few spirits, so for Joker, Ederick and Steve i will lay out what Spirits they could bring (assuming Steve and Ederick make it)

Joker would come with Yu and Jack Frost Spirits (along with others)

Ederick would come with Lumminary, Slime and Bianca (and maybe more)

Steve would come with (not according to leak details), Banjo, Creeper and Joana Dark spirits (along with others)

Who do think would come with Lycanroc

I'd generally say that the Lycanroc spirit would focus on popular Pokemon that currently don't have spirits, such as Weavile, Sceptile, and Talonflame.

Also, we'd have to get a Wolf Link Spirit Battle with Lycanroc.

 

[Cosmic77]

Personally, I'd just add more Spirits of Pokemon from Gen VII and maybe a few from Gen VIII. There's honestly not many new Pokemon Spirits you could add at this point that would work well as a "theme" for Lycanroc.

Well, unless you added mainly rock types, but I'd prefer adding popular/new promotional Pokemon over sticking to a theme.

 

[Luigifan18]

Pokémon's Spirit representation is kinda strange. I get that not every individual Pokémon could be a Spirit, so some omissions make sense, but a lot of the Pokémon — namely the pseudo-legendaries and some of the legendaries — feel like their rank should be higher. The pseudo-legendaries (Dragonite, Tyranitar, Metagross, Salamence, Garchomp, and Hydreigon (yes, Goodra and Kommo-o got the shaft — again, not every Pokémon could be included)), as well as Groudon and Kyogre, all should have been Aces (though the pseudo-legendary Pokémon shouldn’t be quite as strong as the likes of the cover legendary Pokémon), and the Mega and Primal forms of legendary Pokémon (Mega Mewtwo Y, Primal Groudon, and Primal Kyogre) all should have been Legends. It's also weird that Lugia's an Ace while Ho-Oh is a Legend, but then again, Ho-Oh’s a Support Spirit with a Skill so powerful that it wasn't even allowed to be a thing in Smash 4’s equipment system (only serving as a temporary boost in Smash Tour and Smash Run), and Lugia's rank is consistent with the other cover legendaries; the real oddity is the Mega/Primal cover legends, with their BSTs surpassing Arceus in their home franchise, are mere Ace-rank Spirits while Arceus is a Legend (Arceus does deserve that rank, mind you, I just think the Mega/Primal Legendary Pokémon deserve it as well).

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Pokémon's Spirit representation is kinda strange. I get that not every individual Pokémon could be a Spirit, so some omissions make sense, but a lot of the Pokémon — namely the pseudo-legendaries and some of the legendaries — feel like their rank should be higher. The pseudo-legendaries (Dragonite, Tyranitar, Metagross, Salamence, Garchomp, and Hydreigon (yes, Goodra and Kommo-o got the shaft — again, not every Pokémon could be included)), as well as Groudon and Kyogre, all should have been Aces (though the pseudo-legendary Pokémon shouldn’t be quite as strong as the likes of the cover legendary Pokémon), and the Mega and Primal forms of legendary Pokémon (Mega Mewtwo Y, Primal Groudon, and Primal Kyogre) all should have been Legends. It's also weird that Lugia's an Ace while Ho-Oh is a Legend, but then again, Ho-Oh’s a Support Spirit with a Skill so powerful that it wasn't even allowed to be a thing in Smash 4’s equipment system (only serving as a temporary boost in Smash Tour and Smash Run), and Lugia's rank is consistent with the other cover legendaries; the real oddity is the Mega/Primal cover legends, with their BSTs surpassing Arceus in their home franchise, are mere Ace-rank Spirits while Arceus is a Legend (Arceus does deserve that rank, mind you, I just think the Mega/Primal Legendary Pokémon deserve it as well).

Aside from a handful of Pokémon, the majority of Pokémon artwork has been picked wholesale from the Pokémon global link. In all probability, some random staffer looked at the current total list of Pokémon, went "lel, nope!", yanked from the PGL and called it a day.

https://www.ssbwiki.com/List_of_spirits_(Pokémon_series)

Didn't even think about putting in trainers or anything (besides PT, and even then they got the Cloud treatment), they took the lazy way out.

 

[Guynamednelson]

They probably weren't allowed to use the Ken Sugimori art. The same thing happened in Brawl, where the Pokemon stickers all use Brawl renders.

 

[Luigifan18]

Aside from a handful of Pokémon, the majority of Pokémon artwork has been picked wholesale from the Pokémon global link. In all probability, some random staffer looked at the current total list of Pokémon, went "lel, nope!", yanked from the PGL and called it a day.

https://www.ssbwiki.com/List_of_spirits_(Pokémon_series)

Didn't even think about putting in trainers or anything (besides PT, and even then they got the Cloud treatment), they took the lazy way out.

I actually forgot to mention that... why are there no Spirits for any of the notable human characters in the Pokémon franchise, like rivals, Professors, Gym Leaders, and villain team bosses?

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

I actually forgot to mention that... why are there no Spirits for any of the notable human characters in the Pokémon franchise, like rivals, Professors, Gym Leaders, and villain team bosses?

I know right? As it is we barely get any collectibles of them since Melee (even worse in 4's case, since you'd only see the X/Y trainer and Prof. Secamore on the 3DS version). It makes no sense. As if requesting for any of them to be playable is bad enough, we can't even get that.

 

[Guynamednelson]

I know right? As it is we barely get any collectibles of them since Melee (even worse in 4's case, since you'd only see the X/Y trainer and Prof. Secamore on the 3DS version). It makes no sense. As if requesting for any of them to be playable is bad enough, we can't even get that.

Again, this could be the result of not being able to use Ken Sugimori art, as well as trophies after Melee using recycled models.

 

[Delzethin]

It seems like a lot of spirits were chosen for more practical purposes, namely which ones could easily translate into effects when equipped. Would explain the total lack of spirits of trainers, potentially.

Though we could still stand to gain a few of them...


On a different note, check out Olivia's Lycanroc using Drill Run in the anime:

Would make for good dash attack material with the proper changes to get it working in Smash, don't you think?

 

[Joinallthreacs.smash]

It seems like a lot of spirits were chosen for more practical purposes, namely which ones could easily translate into effects when equipped. Would explain the total lack of spirits of trainers, potentially.

Though we could still stand to gain a few of them...


On a different note, check out Olivia's Lycanroc using Drill Run in the anime:

Would make for good dash attack material with the proper changes to get it working in Smash, don't you think?

Was just watching the Anime, and saw it, yes, would be great

 

[Garteam]

While on the terms of the anime, we had our first foreshadowing of the Alola League: the new opening shows Kukui standing above a construction site, which slowly fades into a stadium.

Could they be timing a Lycanroc reveal to coincide with the Alolan League? People's eyes will be back on the anime, as it should be airing during the hype cycle for Gen 8.

 

[Cosmic77]

While on the terms of the anime, we had our first foreshadowing of the Alola League: the new opening shows Kukui standing above a construction site, which slowly fades into a stadium.

Could they be timing a Lycanroc reveal to coincide with the Alolan League? People's eyes will be back on the anime, as it should be airing during the hype cycle for Gen 8.

I doubt they'll coincide announcements with the anime at all. It would be a cool detail if they did, but it's nothing crucial for Lycanroc.

 

[Delzethin]

While on the terms of the anime, we had our first foreshadowing of the Alola League: the new opening shows Kukui standing above a construction site, which slowly fades into a stadium.

Could they be timing a Lycanroc reveal to coincide with the Alolan League? People's eyes will be back on the anime, as it should be airing during the hype cycle for Gen 8.

I doubt they'll coincide announcements with the anime at all. It would be a cool detail if they did, but it's nothing crucial for Lycanroc.

Yeah, whatever events go on in the immediate future in the anime, they won't be setting up a Smash reveal. They don't cross streams like that.

One of those times where I wish I could be wrong, but I know full well it doesn't work that way. Gotta be consistent about these arguments.

 

[LukeRNG]

Alright, here's something to talk about for a bit.
If Lycanroc is indeed a dlc fighter from the fighter's pass, when do you think would be a good time and place for an announcement? Would it be the 2nd, 3rd, 4th or last dlc character?

 

[Joinallthreacs.smash]

The 3rd or 4th, whichever is at E3, they're going to do this to tie it in to the spotlight Pokemon will have there

 

[Delzethin]

Alright, here's something to talk about for a bit.
If Lycanroc is indeed a dlc fighter from the fighter's pass, when do you think would be a good time and place for an announcement? Would it be the 2nd, 3rd, 4th or last dlc character?

2nd or 3rd, most likely. Unless we get a surprise new form in Gen 8, our odds lie best with a reveal sooner rather than later. I'm not even sure if we'll see a newcomer reveal at E3 this year--remember how they got Roy and Ryu out of the way a couple days beforehand in 2015, so that E3 proper could focus on other games? I could see something similar happen here, with a couple more reveals staggered over the next few months that ensures Ultimate doesn't steal the thunder of whatever Nintendo has planned to be their E3 headliner this year (Metroid?).


Meanwhile, the Ash vs. Gladion episode aired overnight. Haven't seen any clips around, so I've only been able to go off the stills on Serebii.

Spoiler

Turns out Ash ended up losing a close match due to Gladion clutching it out with Devastating Drake. Seems like they're really pushing Gladion to be the tough, insurmountable style of rival, since Ash hasn't won a match against him yet.

Which only raises the odds further of them meeting in the League finals for a winner-take-all finale.

 

[Guynamednelson]

So, Sakurai was going to pick a different Pokemon. And it was...

...Decidueye.

 

[RandomAce]

So, Sakurai was going to pick a different Pokemon. And it was...

...Decidueye.

I’m not really surprised by this.

I made a long lengthy essay all the way back in April that basically had my thoughts on the possibilities that I stuck with this whole ride, and I noted that Decidueye’s moveset potential was always something that Sakurai would’ve been interested in.

A bit ashamed that he didn’t go with Decidueye in the end as he would’ve turned out really cool in Smash and would be someone I would’ve looked forward to.

 

[Garteam]

So, Sakurai was going to pick a different Pokemon. And it was...

...Decidueye.

Is it bad that I think Decidueye would've been a better alternative to Incineroar? Not hating on the big guy, but much of his moveset is based around an archetype rather than what he does in the Pokemon games. Decidueye has the unique combination of being an archer, ghost, bird, and plant-user, he's far more one-of-a-kind than Incineroar.

 

[Delzethin]

So, Sakurai was going to pick a different Pokemon. And it was...

...Decidueye.

So, this means one of two things:

1. We fell victim to timing, with the Dusk form truly being too late to have any sway on the decision process. This seems the more likely explanation, considering the total lack of USUM content in the base game. It also leaves the door open--if only a little--for a shot at DLC now, since it'd mean giving a chance to a very unique character who wasn't looked at before and likely won't get another shot.

But the alternative is...

2. We were snubbed because we didn't have the right status...because Lycanroc is not a starter. That even though it didn't stop Lucario, didn't stop Jigglypuff, wasn't a dealbreaker before, it was for us. Just because. A double standard kneecapping our chances before they ever got to begin. I hope it wasn't this.

That said...expect some backlash headed our way. Expect talk of how we never "deserved" a chance, how we were fools for daring to think otherwise. This kind of talk always brings out the types who only care about being right and kicking down anyone they deem "wrong", so best to have countermeasures ready.

 

[Garteam]

Decidueye's consideration has shown one thing that definitely held us back, Sakurai wasn't looking at the anime for possible choices this time. If the anime was truly was necessary to character selection, there's no way Decidueye would be eligible given he still hasn't had a major anime appearance.

Unless his lack of anime promotion was what made Sakurai have such a hesitation on adding Decidueye? Although, if that was truly the issue, then Incineroar wouldn't really be the next I'd put in line as he's a minor side character.

 

[Guynamednelson]

I think Incineroar being able to have a more human moveset is how it got to win over the end. They could reuse assets from Ganondorf, while Smash's pre-existing winged archer doesn't have the right body to build Decidueye out of.

Granted, Duck Hunt's body is closer to Lycanroc than Pit's is to Decidueye, but Ganondorf's body is even closer to Incineroar's, so who knows.

 

[BluePikmin11]

if it weren't the heavy consideration of playstyle, decidueye could have been picked.

and decidueye had popularity around the time Sakurai was finalizing the Pokemon newcomer to make him a notable candidate.

And yeah, it seems like anime promotion wasn't a big deal this time. It feels more like that Sakurai went solely on the criteria on finding fighters with very unique potential with a design fitting for Smash.

 

[LukeRNG]

I cannot lie, i'm a tad dissapointed that he didn't go with Decidueye in the first place, given i would've been more interested in it's potential moveset rather than what we could've gotten for Incineroar.

But in the end i'm still good with how Incineroar ended up being.

 

[Delzethin]

Decidueye's consideration has shown one thing that definitely held us back, Sakurai wasn't looking at the anime for possible choices this time. If the anime was truly was necessary to character selection, there's no way Decidueye would be eligible given he still hasn't had a major anime appearance.

Unless his lack of anime promotion was what made Sakurai have such a hesitation on adding Decidueye? Although, if that was truly the issue, then Incineroar wouldn't really be the next I'd put in line as he's a minor side character.

Yeah, that's one thing that managed to trip everyone up. Out of the only two Gen 7 'mons we know were considered so far, one has only had a bit role in the anime and the other hasn't made more than a couple cameos. After all the talk around Smash 4's time of how the team looks ahead to who'll have a major presence going forward, combined with Greninja--the poster 'mon of major presence--getting the nod, it was safe to believe something similar would happen.

But, it seems they went in a different direction entirely, and none of us had any way of knowing.

Unless the reason why they took a different direction was because Greninja's successor wasn't ready yet in time for Ultimate's earlier-than-usual cutoff point...but we need evidence of that being why.

I think Incineroar being able to have a more human moveset is how it got to win over the end. They could reuse assets from Ganondorf, while Smash's pre-existing winged archer doesn't have the right body to build Decidueye out of.

Granted, Duck Hunt's body is closer to Lycanroc than Pit's is to Decidueye, but Ganondorf's body is even closer to Incineroar's, so who knows.

Speaking of which...have you all heard the story of how Wolf got into Brawl? The short of it is that the main reason he made it in was because the dev team was able to cobble together code from other characters they'd already mostly finished. Considering we also know that Krystal was strongly considered for Brawl but ultimately missed out, there's reason to believe that Wolf was chosen over her because he was easier to make and fit into their cramped development schedule.

Perhaps the same thing happened again.

 

[Garteam]

Speaking of which...have you all heard the story of how Wolf got into Brawl? The short of it is that the main reason he made it in was because the dev team was able to cobble together code from other characters they'd already mostly finished. Considering we also know that Krystal was strongly considered for Brawl but ultimately missed out, there's reason to believe that Wolf was chosen over her because he was easier to make and fit into their cramped development schedule.

Perhaps the same thing happened again.

I have noticed some similarities between Incineroar's moveset relative to the other heavies. Namely, his down smash and f-air seems to be lifted from King K. Rool, while his d-air seems to be taken from Ganondorf.

Isabelle seems to also fit this trend. Ignoring the obvious lifts from Villager, she also seems to have a modified version of Inkling's down smash. Plus, the way Sakurai discusses Piranha Plant in the article implies that he was actually decided with the rest of the roster and was listed in the project plan. Overall, it seems that Ultimate's development cycle was a lot more condensed than initially thought.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Overall, it seems that Ultimate's development cycle was a lot more condensed than initially thought.

Didn't we find out at some point that the dev team was smaller than 4's?

 

[Garteam]

Didn't we find out at some point that the dev team was smaller than 4's?

Personally, I don't remember anything that would hint towards this. However, I could be wrong.

 

[RandomAce]

With Decidueye being confirmed to have almost been in Smash, I’m not really sure where Lycanroc would stand in this scenario. Were they third, behind Decidueye in Pokémon he was looking for? Not considered at all? Would something differently would have happened if Sakurai chose the Pokémon in time when Lycanroc was more prominent in (like 2017)?

I’m not really sure where to put my finger on it. But I’m left with more questions honestly.

 

[LukeRNG]

Knowing that Decidueye was a contender for a pokemon rep in smash, would sakurai just stick with Incineroar as the only new pokemon rep or would he try to get decidueye in the dlc?
We really don't know what ideas Sakurai would've had for Decidueye's moveset before moving to Incineroar, whether they were really unique or just on a basic level.
And if Sakurai had the intention to add another pokemon in the dlc, would he still stick to Decidueye or have other ideas turn him away from it into other Pokemon.

One thing's for sure: if we have a chance to get another gen 7 rep, the time is within this Fighter's pass. Because if there is a second Fighter's Pass, gen 8 will be a few months old by then and most people will forget about gen 7 altogether. And since i'm expecting the new pokemon to be shown off during may, then that pokemon dlc needs to happen before the attention shifts to the new generation.
It's definitely stressful to think about especially since i'm not expecting any first party characters in the fighter's pass (of course that's just my gut feeling and nothing else).

Also, this month has been very quiet of news from nintendo. Only the smash and splatoon tournaments are noteworthy so far aside from eaks and rumors.
I guess the Joker gameplay could come in the next direct given how close we are to the release of piranha plant.

 

[Delzethin]

With Decidueye being confirmed to have almost been in Smash, I’m not really sure where Lycanroc would stand in this scenario. Were they third, behind Decidueye in Pokémon he was looking for? Not considered at all? Would something differently would have happened if Sakurai chose the Pokémon in time when Lycanroc was more prominent in (like 2017)?

I’m not really sure where to put my finger on it. But I’m left with more questions honestly.

I'm leaning toward "may have been interested, but their hands were tied either way due to the line being planned to reach its peak too far after the cutoff point to where details on the form they've promoted the most may not have even been finalized yet". On one hand, it's frustrating that this all is being held as "proof" of lack of merit or worth rather than being acknowledged as (probably) just bad timing like with Zoroark.

On the other, it'd leave the door open for us to get in right now in this wave, before the torch is passed to Gen 8. The question is whether they'd look at Gen 7 again...but if they did, wouldn't you figure they'd look especially at someone who hadn't been an option before? Particularly such a unique choice that offers things they wouldn't have much chance to work with again for a long time, and when the lighter load of DLC development means ease of development wouldn't be a concern?

Knowing that Decidueye was a contender for a pokemon rep in smash, would sakurai just stick with Incineroar as the only new pokemon rep or would he try to get decidueye in the dlc?
We really don't know what ideas Sakurai would've had for Decidueye's moveset before moving to Incineroar, whether they were really unique or just on a basic level.
And if Sakurai had the intention to add another pokemon in the dlc, would he still stick to Decidueye or have other ideas turn him away from it into other Pokemon.

I figure, Decidueye getting namedropped probably means it is not one of the remaining four. If it was, Sakurai would've waited to elaborate on the circumstances in the base game until after the reveal.

Though it also means only Decidueye would be out of the running far as Pokémon options go, so we still have a fair shot either way. Waiting to talk about Lycanroc until post-reveal wouldn't be weird if Lycanroc's biggest spotlight didn't come until after it was too late for the base roster anyway, right?

Also, this month has been very quiet of news from nintendo. Only the smash and splatoon tournaments are noteworthy so far aside from eaks and rumors.
I guess the Joker gameplay could come in the next direct given how close we are to the release of piranha plant.

Well, we do have a Nindie highlight reel tomorrow, so that's something. All it means for us, though, is that we likely won't see a regular Direct this week. Nothing more than that, I don't think.

Though at this point, considering the spontaneous announcements we've seen this month like release dates, plus things we know need to be talked about like details + an exact release date for Piranha Plant and the data in Super Mario Party's code that suggests several more playable characters will come in updates...I think we'll probably get something soon. Even if it's just a Mini like last year that sets up a big Direct in March.

 

[Joinallthreacs.smash]

So, we have a pokemon that was cut. but unlike what i thought, it was Decidueye, but i was half right (speculating that a cut first party was a Pokemon)(it was even a grass type). i have two possible theroies about how it relates to Lycanroc.

1. We just weren't relevant enough during delevopment process and we were subject to timing

or, the more unlikely option, but still pluasible

2. Isaac was planned to be on the base roster, but was cut for place Decidueye becuase Golden Sun simply wasnt relevant enough and wasn't as popular. And so, he was going to be our earthweilder.

 

[RandomAce]

So, we have a pokemon that was cut. but unlike what i thought, it was Decidueye, but i was half right (speculating that a cut first party was a Pokemon)(it was even a grass type). i have two possible theroies about how it relates to Lycanroc.

1. We just weren't relevant enough during delevopment process and we were subject to timing

or, the more unlikely option, but still pluasible

2. Isaac was planned to be on the base roster, but was cut for place Decidueye becuase Golden Sun simply wasnt relevant enough and wasn't as popular. And so, he was going to be our earthweilder.

Decidueye wasn’t cut from the game. He was heavily considered as the Gen 7 newcomer before they went with Incineroar.

 

[Guynamednelson]

2. Isaac was planned to be on the base roster, but was cut for place Decidueye becuase Golden Sun simply wasnt relevant enough and wasn't as popular. And so, he was going to be our earthweilder.

I think the real reason why Isaac isn't playable is because they didn't have time to make a Golden Sun stage. There were so many stages to remake, 3/4 of the new stages use recycled assets from their base game, and Dracula's Castle has a simple layout and the monsters are just background props. Sure, FE didn't have a stage in Melee and ROB still doesn't have one, but Melee has some FE stage data left and ROB still has NES stages to use.