Day, Night, and Dusk - Lycanroc for Smash Bros. Ultimate

[Delzethin]

I believe it was in a tweet. The director for US/UM stated that Dusk Lycanroc was his favorite Pokemon from Gen VII.

Not sure how impactful that opinion will be though. This was his first time taking the reigns for a Pokemon game.

Yeah, it wouldn't have any effect on Smash whatsoever, but it's interesting to hear.


On a lighter note, a merchandise announcement that you might've missed:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Leading the pack once again within Gen 7. If you're interested, now you'll be able to...either import it or wait for a Western listing, I suppose.

 

[BluePikmin11]

I am very surprised to not see a Mimikyu plushie in that advertisement.

 

[RandomAce]

This is something I haven’t thought about until now and I never saw this being brought up... but who’s going to voice Lycanroc?

Do any of the forms have any voice actors? And who do you think might voice them?

 

[Garteam]

This is something I haven’t thought about until now and I never saw this being brought up... but who’s going to voice Lycanroc?

Do any of the forms have any voice actors? And who do you think might voice them?

In the Japanese anime, Midday Lycanroc is voiced by Yuji Ueda, Midnight Lycanroc is voiced by Shin'ichiro Miki, and Dusk Lycanroc is voiced by Keiichi Nakagawa, so it could be assumed these actors would reprise their roles for whichever form of Lycanroc is in Smash Bros

In English things get a little more tricky, as none of Lycanroc's voice actors are credited. However, it can be assumed whoever voices Olivia's Lycanroc would voice midday, whoever voices Gladion's Lycanroc would voice midnight, and whoever voices Ash's Lycanroc would voice dusk.

 

[Shanoa]

Lycanroc is my most anticipated Pokemon newcomer, Delzethin won me over during the early speculation days. :o

Count me in as a supporter.

 

[Delzethin]

Truth be told...I'm not the right person to ask about the voices. I'm not much a fan of the Poké-speak used in the anime--feels really cheesy and doesn't mesh very well with how the franchise has grown. While I understand the reason behind it--probably to help the kids, a.k.a. the show's main audience, remember all the names more easily--I still prefer the more animal-like noises used in the games and spinoff media. But I also know that won't be changed for Smash so...oh well.

Lycanroc is my most anticipated Pokemon newcomer, Delzethin won me over during the early speculation days. :o

Count me in as a supporter.

Welcome. Nice to have you around on the boards again, even if it took some prodding, heh.

 

[Garteam]

I watched a few clips of Lycanroc from the anime, and it doesn't look like Lycanroc actually has Pokemon speak, he just makes actually dog noises in a gravely voice.

Also, don't quote me on this, but I believe Ash's Lycanroc has the same voice actor in both the Japanese and English dubs.

 

[Chihiro Fujisaki]

That's not true, if I recall. Apparently the actual thing is that Mr. Ohmori was asked which of the Alola starters were his favorite, and he said Litten since he has a cat at home. The evolved forms were never brought up, and Masuda wasn't asked.

Besides, the directors' personal preference hasn't dictated which 'mons end up on the roster yet anyway, far as I know. If I remember right, Masuda's favorite Kalos starter is Delphox, and that amounted to a whole lot of nothing far as Smash goes.


Wait, what? Do you have a source on that?

must've been misinfo i picked up floating on the internet on my part, sorry 'bout that. either way though, looks like developer bias isn't a factor if the latter half of that is true

 

[SmashChu]

That's typical Smash speculation for you: most people seem to gravitate toward whoever they think is a "lock" at any given moment. It's like an inverse sour grapes effect, with them deciding they want who they think they're going to be stuck with.

Though for what it's worth, this has had shades of Chrom four years ago already. I may have overestimated the bandwagoning we'd see--seems like Incineroar's falling under the same situation of "expected, but not really wanted due to feeling too similar to what we already have".

Its a fairly good point. I saw a thread over on GameFAQ asking if you wanted Incinaroar. More people said no.

I always thought that Incinaroar was pushed for by people who didn't like Decidueye. Looking into it, I'm not convinced he's a lock. Pokemon is hard to pin down. No one expected Greninja. In fact, in the "Rate Their Chances" he was the only newcomer to not have been rated previously. It was a complete surprise. So Im a bit dubious that Incinaroar is such a lock as people claim he is. One thing to add is I think Sakurai picks Pokemon for their unique abilities. There is only one fighting Pokemon, Lucario, and I figure he was picked because of his aura abilities rather than for fighting. Incinaroar being a wreastler doesn't help him as the types of attacks he'd do would be too similar to other fights or he wouldn't stand out as much. Grappling and lariats is something DK already does.

The Pokemon newcomer could go anyway as far as I see it. The one thing I have noticed is that the Pokemon they pick tends to appear quite a bit in the anime. With this, it could be Lycanroc. He's in the anime. They promote him a lot. He could probably do some rock attacks. It works. Or it could be Rowlet in the end (since he's so popular). Or maybe they do choose Decidueye (as he was chosen for Pokken which counts for something). Heck, it could be someone completely different. There really is no telling. So I don't like the idea of saying a Pokemon is a lock.

That said, I like Lycanroc and had him in my party in Moon.

 

[Chihiro Fujisaki]

Its a fairly good point. I saw a thread over on GameFAQ asking if you wanted Incinaroar. More people said no.

I always thought that Incinaroar was pushed for by people who didn't like Decidueye. Looking into it, I'm not convinced he's a lock. Pokemon is hard to pin down. No one expected Greninja. In fact, in the "Rate Their Chances" he was the only newcomer to not have been rated previously. It was a complete surprise. So Im a bit dubious that Incinaroar is such a lock as people claim he is. One thing to add is I think Sakurai picks Pokemon for their unique abilities. There is only one fighting Pokemon, Lucario, and I figure he was picked because of his aura abilities rather than for fighting. Incinaroar being a wreastler doesn't help him as the types of attacks he'd do would be too similar to other fights or he wouldn't stand out as much. Grappling and lariats is something DK already does.

The Pokemon newcomer could go anyway as far as I see it. The one thing I have noticed is that the Pokemon they pick tends to appear quite a bit in the anime. With this, it could be Lycanroc. He's in the anime. They promote him a lot. He could probably do some rock attacks. It works. Or it could be Rowlet in the end (since he's so popular). Or maybe they do choose Decidueye (as he was chosen for Pokken which counts for something). Heck, it could be someone completely different. There really is no telling. So I don't like the idea of saying a Pokemon is a lock.

That said, I like Lycanroc and had him in my party in Moon.

also incineroars two types, fire and dark, are already represented by two existing pokemon: charizard and greninja.

 

[SmashChu]

also incineroars two types, fire and dark, are already represented by two existing pokemon: charizard and greninja.

True though I'm not sure how much type overlap really matters. We haven't had a situation where there were two Pokemon of the same type except Melee. We have this for Ultimate now so will being Dark and Fire hurt it. We'll have to see.

Personally, the Pokemon I'd like would be Rowlet or Decidueye. Still, I think it could be anyone. Del does make a good case for Lycanroc and I didn't realize how much they've pushed that Pokemon.

 

[Chihiro Fujisaki]

True though I'm not sure how much type overlap really matters. We haven't had a situation where there were two Pokemon of the same type except Melee. We have this for Ultimate now so will being Dark and Fire hurt it. We'll have to see.

Personally, the Pokemon I'd like would be Rowlet or Decidueye. Still, I think it could be anyone. Del does make a good case for Lycanroc and I didn't realize how much they've pushed that Pokemon.

mm, yeah. pichu was added in as mostly a joke in melee though and mostly came back for the sake of everyone coming back in ultimate. he's also a clone, though he's not listed as an echo in ultimate so his differences are likely more significant than in melee, it still stands that his circumstances are different than a full blown new pokemon rep.

edit: squirtle i totally forgot about actually... i'd bring up the "he's mostly just back because everyone is here" argument for this one, but he is a completely unique fighter. either way, i don't think type overlap is a major issue but for individual pokemon i feel like it's at least somewhat of a factor, just because i know sakurai would want a more diverse selection of pokemon.

i think decidueye has the most unique moveset potential but personally? i want lycanroc more.

 

[Maikou]

Truth be told...I'm not the right person to ask about the voices. I'm not much a fan of the Poké-speak used in the anime--feels really cheesy and doesn't mesh very well with how the franchise has grown. While I understand the reason behind it--probably to help the kids, a.k.a. the show's main audience, remember all the names more easily--I still prefer the more animal-like noises used in the games and spinoff media. But I also know that won't be changed for Smash so...oh well.

You DO realize that A: not every Pokemon in the anime says their name (Ponyta and Rapidash, for example, simply neigh) and B: Charizard's roars were changed a little for Smash, correct? In the anime his grunts (which go undubbed even in the 4Kids era) vaguely resemble "lizardon" (his JP name) but in Smash, he just roars, not even the slightest hint of his name in any language. Lucario and Riolu also just sort of bark or growl. It's mostly cute or non-threatening Pokemon that say their names.

But that's a little beside the point. I have come to show my support for Lycanroc, mostly Dusk form. Ever since it was revealed, I've loved the entire idea of Lycanroc. While Rock and Ground types aren't my favorite sorts of Pokemon most of the time, I absolutely adore wolves, and an earthbending wolf is pretty unique, on type of Lycanroc being faster than I'd expect from a Rock-type. I did wind up overlooking Lycanroc as an option for Smash, but that's almost entirely because I haven't been in a Pokemon mood, so I've missed a lot, not to mention I haven't been watching the anime lately, and I've been mostly focused on the Bandana Dee thread with a bit of activity in Celica's thread. I stumbled upon Delzethin's character concept for Dusk Lycanroc thanks to someone in the Bandana Brigade posting his concept for Bandana Dee's moveset, and as I commented on that video, Delzethin's ideas really sold me on wanting Lycanroc. It wouldn't have taken much anyway, wolves are my favorite animals and Lycanroc is awesome, but the moveset and playstyle Delzethin made is amazingly unique and fun.

It terms of which form I think should get in, definitely Dusk form. I watched the Dusk Lycanroc version of Delzethin's concept video, and while I love Midday form too, I honestly just hate Midnight form. Midnight is just too much a stereotypical bloodthirsty werewolf-- it just has actual fur and for some bizarre reason gets a mohawk. Plus, while a bipedal earthbender is still fun and unique, a quadrupedal earthbender, while harder to implement, is much more fun and unique.

What are some potential matchups do you want so see happen with Lycanroc?

Personally it’s Lycanroc v. Isaac.

Full Pokemon 8-player battle royale! It's obligatory, but you can't deny that it's a pretty fun idea. I also kinda want to see Lycanroc and Isaac team up. I don't know Golden Sun or Isaac very well, but people have said Isaac has some power over earth and it's just kinda cool to imagine two earthbenders teaming up, especially with one being human and the other being a wolf. I could also see Lycanroc fighting alongside Link and/or Cloud, since both of the swordsmen have a wolf motif, or at least LINO has had a wolf companion before.

There's also a lot of canine free-for-alls I could see, or team-ups. It's kinda fun to picture Lycanroc and Duck Hunt on the same team, if only because it's kind of hilarious to see the juxtaposition of Lycanroc as an incredibly serious, independent wolf compared to the dog's constant trolling and traps and reliance on the duck and Gunmen, not to mention how Lycanroc's ironically less cartoonish design makes interacting with items a bit harder compared to Duck Hunt somehow having perfect form with the Home-Run Bat.

Honestly, there's just a lot of fun to be had with the idea of a relatively normal-looking wolf joining the cast.

 

[Delzethin]

You DO realize that A: not every Pokemon in the anime says their name (Ponyta and Rapidash, for example, simply neigh) and B: Charizard's roars were changed a little for Smash, correct? In the anime his grunts (which go undubbed even in the 4Kids era) vaguely resemble "lizardon" (his JP name) but in Smash, he just roars, not even the slightest hint of his name in any language. Lucario and Riolu also just sort of bark or growl. It's mostly cute or non-threatening Pokemon that say their names.

But that's a little beside the point. I have come to show my support for Lycanroc, mostly Dusk form. Ever since it was revealed, I've loved the entire idea of Lycanroc. While Rock and Ground types aren't my favorite sorts of Pokemon most of the time, I absolutely adore wolves, and an earthbending wolf is pretty unique, on type of Lycanroc being faster than I'd expect from a Rock-type. I did wind up overlooking Lycanroc as an option for Smash, but that's almost entirely because I haven't been in a Pokemon mood, so I've missed a lot, not to mention I haven't been watching the anime lately, and I've been mostly focused on the Bandana Dee thread with a bit of activity in Celica's thread. I stumbled upon Delzethin's character concept for Dusk Lycanroc thanks to someone in the Bandana Brigade posting his concept for Bandana Dee's moveset, and as I commented on that video, Delzethin's ideas really sold me on wanting Lycanroc. It wouldn't have taken much anyway, wolves are my favorite animals and Lycanroc is awesome, but the moveset and playstyle Delzethin made is amazingly unique and fun.

Welcome, and thanks for the vote of confidence! I admit, I overgeneralized a few posts up--I know not every 'mon in the anime says their name, and you make a good point with Charizard.


Seems like discussion in here has died down a bit over the last few days. Is everyone worn out? Or is it just because people have had class/work? Either way, let's do what we can to keep up the pace so people don't forget we exist all over again.

By the way, AlphaSSB , can you post those alts you made again? I should add them to the front page.

 

[GlaceonGD]

Welcome, and thanks for the vote of confidence! I admit, I overgeneralized a few posts up--I know not every 'mon in the anime says their name, and you make a good point with Charizard.


Seems like discussion in here has died down a bit over the last few days. Is everyone worn out? Or is it just because people have had class/work? Either way, let's do what we can to keep up the pace so people don't forget we exist all over again.

By the way, AlphaSSB , can you post those alts you made again? I should add them to the front page.

The main reason I've not been active in here lately is because I can't think of any responses to most of the things that are currently being said, and I am also trying to get back into my writing as it's been five months since I last worked on something. I was actually going to say earlier that pokemon saying their names can actually be a lot more helpful in conveying emotion and other things similar to that than just making animal like noises, so I don't see anything wrong with it. Think of it as the English for pokemon, they can understand and talk with each other but trainers can't understand them, in much the same way that English speakers cannot typically understand things said in Japanese unless they take the time to research and learn the language thoroughly. While yes it is more for the kids as it's mainly portrayed in the anime it has quite a bit of significance, and is in place to be more of a foreign language than a "they just say their names because it helps kids remember what they're called" kind of thing. At least, that's just my opinion on the matter, I'm sure others think of it differently.

 

[MasteRMerF]

Alright guys, I know what went down...

Vergeben's sources: *sees red, bipedal Pokemon* "OK, that's Incineroar"
When it was ACTUALLY...

Joking aside, I'd be lying if I said recent events haven't got me worried. As we all know, Vergeben's smash character knowledge has (so far) been pretty accurate. The more I look at it, the more I can see how, while not for EVERYONE, Incineroar's design and potential moveset is appealing, appealing to, say, Sakurai. If Incineroar and Ken are two of the final(ish) characters we're going to get, I can clearly see both of them being revealed in the same trailer, whether it be Ryu fighting Incineroar and Ken steps in or something like that. That said, I still absolutely support Lycanroc 110% and it makes me happy that so many people here haven't given up hope and are still supporting our rock pups even with the recent "confirmation" of Incineroar. I've said it before and I'll say it til the end, I'm damn proud to be apart of this group.

 

[Maikou]

I know just stated I don't like Midnight Form Lycanroc, but I'd like to talk about something bugging me about the concept you created for Midday/Midnight Lycanroc, namely the manner in which they switch. Nobody seems to have brought it up before, so is there any reason you never seemed to consider the idea of the Lycanroc switching by simply being recalled to their Poke Ball with the other coming out? I just watched your concept video for the Midday/Midnight forms, and while you mentioned that the idea of the Solar/Lunar Howl and transforming between the two as the same Pokemon doesn't have a basis in canon, you don't seem to have considered their trainer simply switching them out like the currently playable Trainer does with Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard. It might not seem as justified to some people for a trainer to have the two Lycanroc have almost the exact same moveset, but people also forget the time when they were 10-12 and just picked all the coolest looking moves for their Pokemon with no real variety.

The only real questions I think this brings up pertain to how to handle said Trainer. It's possible they could simply be invisible, with the Poke Balls just sort of appearing and disappearing to put emphasis on the Lycanroc themselves, but I'd see it more as a possible Red/Leaf situation, with the default/advertised trainers hanging out in the background and such. They'd probably be easy to implement, as they could probably share most of their animations with Red or Leaf (depending on gender), though obviously they'd have different victory animations. What do you think?

Alright guys, I know what went down...

Vergeben's sources: *sees red, bipedal Pokemon* "OK, that's Incineroar"
When it was ACTUALLY...
View attachment 165833
Joking aside, I'd be lying if I said recent events haven't got me worried. As we all know, Vergeben's smash character knowledge has (so far) been pretty accurate. The more I look at it, the more I can see how, while not for EVERYONE, Incineroar's design and potential moveset is appealing, appealing to, say, Sakurai. If Incineroar and Ken are two of the final(ish) characters we're going to get, I can clearly see both of them being revealed in the same trailer, whether it be Ryu fighting Incineroar and Ken steps in or something like that. That said, I still absolutely support Lycanroc 110% and it makes me happy that so many people here haven't given up hope and are still supporting our rock pups even with the recent "confirmation" of Incineroar. I've said it before and I'll say it til the end, I'm damn proud to be apart of this group.

It'd be kind of funny it turned out to be true though. Those "sources" mistaking Lycanroc for Incineroar.

That said, I'm going to repeat something I recently stated on the Bandana Dee thread: I don't count a character as disconfirmed until something explicit happens, such as them turning out to be an Assist Trophy/Poke Ball or simply not being in the game at all by the time Sakurai announces that they've shown the last newcomer. Something else I'm going to repeat from that thread, I don't trust leaks at all. Not in the slightest. No matter who the leaker is, how accurately they've predicted things, it doesn't matter in the slightest to me. I simply do not trust any sort of leak or ridiculous "theory", like the so-called "music theory" brought up on the Bandana Dee thread recently.

Basically;

 

[Fell God]

Something else I'm going to repeat from that thread, I don't trust leaks at all. Not in the slightest. No matter who the leaker is, how accurately they've predicted things, it doesn't matter in the slightest to me. I simply do not trust any sort of leak or ridiculous "theory", like the so-called "music theory" brought up on the Bandana Dee thread recently.

Basically;

Good choice of game to reference. Did it once myself in the general thread. Also, Delzethin I think I'd like to join the support list, the past few months of speculation have caused a certain rock wolf that I once didn't care about in the slightest to grow on me. Let's hope Sakurai made the right choice to represent SuMo (if they added a Pokémon at all that is)

 

[AlphaSSB]

Welcome, and thanks for the vote of confidence! I admit, I overgeneralized a few posts up--I know not every 'mon in the anime says their name, and you make a good point with Charizard.


Seems like discussion in here has died down a bit over the last few days. Is everyone worn out? Or is it just because people have had class/work? Either way, let's do what we can to keep up the pace so people don't forget we exist all over again.

By the way, AlphaSSB , can you post those alts you made again? I should add them to the front page.

Sure thing, Del.

Figure I might as well mention this too. I still have the file used for making recolors, along with the files used for the Decidueye and Incineroar recolors I made. For whichever one makes it in Smash, I plan on taking requests from their respective supporters for recolors. Probably make eight or less, depending on how many palette swaps are revealed in photographs.

As for your comment on discussion dying down a bit, I certainly hope things here pick back up. A lot of things seem to be stacked against Lycanroc, and I'd hate to see hope and discussion die. Though there's still no guarantee of it happening, if any character may be the Robin of Smash Ultimate, its Lycanroc. And I'm not giving up on him until its over.

Unfortunately for Decidueye, we don't really have that luxury. And so conversation there is almost completely dead, with most having made their peace. For the most part, I have as well. Which kinda lead to me migrating to this thread for Pokemon discussion. Said it before, but I appreciate being taking in.

 

[RandomAce]

Welcome, and thanks for the vote of confidence! I admit, I overgeneralized a few posts up--I know not every 'mon in the anime says their name, and you make a good point with Charizard.


Seems like discussion in here has died down a bit over the last few days. Is everyone worn out? Or is it just because people have had class/work? Either way, let's do what we can to keep up the pace so people don't forget we exist all over again.

By the way, AlphaSSB , can you post those alts you made again? I should add them to the front page.

Well now that I have school these days, I usually answer a lot later than usual and have to catch up.

However, when I am here, there really doesn’t seem to be a lot to talk about. I guess Verge sort of worned some people out.

Anyways, what else do you guys want to talk about?

 

[Cosmic77]

I simply do not trust any sort of leak or ridiculous "theory", like the so-called "music theory" brought up on the Bandana Dee thread recently.

Not trying to nitpick one sentence from your post, but the music theory being true would actually be a good thing for Lycanroc. For a while, a lot of people thought we might not even get a Pokemon newcomer this time, but as long as Pokemon doesn't get a track on the website, it would still be eligible for a newcomer according to the music theory (Sadly, BWD wouldn't happen if it were true, so I can understand your hesitation).

But I agree. No character should be considered officially disconfirmed until it's seen with a notable role besides a playable character, such as an AT or an interactive stage element.

 

[Chihiro Fujisaki]

idk, this feels like the most active pokemon thread to me. I’ve spectated the other ones so... good job on being stubborn gang lol

 

[RandomAce]

idk, this feels like the most active pokemon thread to me. I’ve spectated the other ones so... good job on being stubborn gang lol

This is in fact the most active Pokémon thread.

So far... this thread has 702 comments and 18 pages. It surpasses Decidueye and Incineroar by a significant amount actually.

 

[valkiriforce]

^ That's really good to know. Glad to hear there are plenty of people on board who also want Lycanroc to make it in as a fighter.

I'm curious about something concerning Vergeben which I'm not sure anyone can really answer; how is it that he knows that neither Lycanroc or Decidueye won't be in the game? I'm aware he communicates with multiple sources, and we know he's predicted characters making it in the game, but what about characters he says won't make it? He didn't know about Richter, Chrom, Dark Samus or K. Rool, and I'm aware he likely didn't say anything against their inclusion this time around, but it does stand that he didn't know about them. Despite everything he has revealed so far I'm fairly certain he doesn't know everything about the game. I can understand being confident in a character's inclusion, but I just don't get it when people say that any character is completely deconfirmed or not going to make it in.

 

[Guynamednelson]

He didn't know about Richter, Chrom, Dark Samus or K. Rool

Notice how most of those are echoes? I'm gonna assume he only knew about the initial plans, like with Gematsu. Sakurai might have picked Incineroar at first, but then went with Midday Lycanroc because it's quadrupedal, rock-type, and not a starter, and Dusk Lycanroc was designed the way it was so whoever's modeling stuff for SSBU can easily turn the midday form into it.

 

[LukeRNG]

Anyways, what else do you guys want to talk about?

I don't think stages have come up yet? Correct me if i'm wrong.

 

[RandomAce]

I don't think stages have come up yet? Correct me if i'm wrong.

Not really...

If a S/M stage does come to fruition, I think Altar of Sunne and Moone are criminally underrated. It’s the perfect stage for S/M seeing how it’s represents the main elements of the game, not mention it can be very unique with having the Altar open up and Ultra beasts can come out.

 

[RandomAce]

I want to say something after seeing what happened with the recent ken leak... consider this as a sort of important announcement of sort.

We are on the line, this person may potentially already know the entire roster and what are fate holds against us. I’m getting really nervous right now... we may know the Pokémon newcomer any day now, and we may know if it’s Lycanroc or not.

Any thoughts?

 

[GlaceonGD]

I want to say something after seeing what happened with the recent ken leak... consider this as a sort of important announcement of sort.

We are on the line, this person may potentially already know the entire roster and what are fate holds against us. I’m getting really nervous right now... we may know the Pokémon newcomer any day now, and we may know if it’s Lycanroc or not.

Any thoughts?

If you are talking about the image leak that I've been seeing around today I'm pretty sure it's already been debunked. If you aren't talking about that one then I don't think I've seen it yet, I don't look for leaks I just watch the videos that interest me about certain ones or talk about the ones people send in one of the discord chats I'm in. That's where I saw the image "leak" and they pretty much spent an hour debunking it or something.

On the subject of discord, have we considered making a lycanroc support discord for another more formal way of communicating? Just something to look into in the future if Delzethin is interested, thought I'd bring it up.

 

[RandomAce]

If you are talking about the image leak that I've been seeing around today I'm pretty sure it's already been debunked. If you aren't talking about that one then I don't think I've seen it yet, I don't look for leaks I just watch the videos that interest me about certain ones or talk about the ones people send in one of the discord chats I'm in. That's where I saw the image "leak" and they pretty much spent an hour debunking it or something.

On the subject of discord, have we considered making a lycanroc support discord for another more formal way of communicating? Just something to look into in the future if Delzethin is interested, thought I'd bring it up.

Spoiler: Potential Leak

Yeah the recent Ken leak that surfaced today.

There’s a full version with Pichu, Ivysaur; and Pac-Man standing beside him on Moray Towers.

Some people tried to debunk it, as well as ArtsyOmny, but there were so many little things, like some graphical glitches, Pichu’s model and the Timer being from either E3/Pre E3, and PAC Man’s feet going through the platform indicating that PAC Man is going through it, and a slew of other things that made it be considered an actual leak.

I would like a Lycanroc Smash Support Discord. Does anyone want to make one? Does Delzethin have one, or plan making one?

 

[GlaceonGD]

Spoiler: Potential Leak

Yeah the recent Ken leak that surfaced today.

There’s a full version with Pichu, Ivysaur; and Pac-Man standing beside him on Moray Towers.

Some people tried to debunk it, as well as ArtsyOmny, but there were so many little things, like some graphical glitches, Pichu’s model and the Timer being from either E3/Pre E3, and PAC Man’s feet going through the platform indicating that PAC Man is going through it, and a slew of other things that made it be considered an actual leak.

I would like a Lycanroc Smash Support Discord. Does anyone want to make one? Does Delzethin have one, or plan making one?

Ah, so not officially debunked yet. I believe it's only a matter of time before it happens, and even if Ken is in the game the leak isn't true unless he looks exactly like the one in the picture. Knowing some people though, they would likely just think it's real regardless and start believing what that guys says.

If we were to have a support discord made I would say that having Delzethin create and own it is the way it should happen as he is the one who made this thread and brought us all together. Just makes sense in my opinion.

 

[LukeRNG]

Not really...

If a S/M stage does come to fruition, I think Altar of Sunne and Moone are criminally underrated. It’s the perfect stage for S/M seeing how it’s represents the main elements of the game, not mention it can be very unique with having the Altar open up and Ultra beasts can come out.

I thought i was the only one to think altar of the sunne/moone was the perfect stage. I was thinking that characters could be pulled into a wormhole and one of the battlefields would be the top of ultra megalopolis, with ultra necrozma in the background.

And while that Ken leak does look convincing, that shouldn't be indicative of confirming Incineroar, since we all expect Ken to be in anyways with or without Incineroar. But it is concerning regardless.

Even if i do like Incineroar, i'm getting tired of hearing people talk about it like it's the only possible pokemon newcomer for smash. A heel wrestler wouldn't be that interesting considering how many characters use fire and/or focus on throwing, punching and kicking.

 

[Garteam]

I want to say something after seeing what happened with the recent ken leak... consider this as a sort of important announcement of sort.

We are on the line, this person may potentially already know the entire roster and what are fate holds against us. I’m getting really nervous right now... we may know the Pokémon newcomer any day now, and we may know if it’s Lycanroc or not.

Any thoughts?

While we are on leak discussion, there's a slight light that may lead to something good.

Recently a leaker named Senjougahara_Hitagi has been making the round for his leaks on fighting games. These include the announcement of King of Fighters 15, the announcement of a Samurai Showdown Reboot, and the announcement of Android 17 (in his ranger uniform) as DBZ Fighters DLC. 10 days ago, he leaked the remaining four newcomers:

>A Square Enix character
>A recent Pokemon
>Isabelle (who has since been confirmed, obviously)
>Steve (from Minecraft)

Even Vergeben, the current king of Smash leaks, has admitted that there may be some legitimacy to his source (although he also admitted there are some differences with his list and Hitagi's). The thing that catches my attention, aside from Steve (obviously), but its the fact he says "a recent Pokemon" rather than Incineroar. While this was before Vergeben doubled down on Incineroar, he was still considered the clear forerunner in as far as Pokemon go (largely due to Vergeben's claims about Decidueye and Lycanroc). If Hitagi does have legitimate information, why would be deliberately vague about a character he knows? There are two explanations I can see: Hitagi either wants to seperate himself from Vergeben, or one of the differences between him and Vergeben is knowledge on who the Pokemon newcomer is.

Granted, I could also be making a whole lot of nothing out of a guy posting lies on the Internet, but we're in the eleventh hour and any possible hint is more than welcome,

 

[RandomAce]

I thought i was the only one to think altar of the sunne/moone was the perfect stage. I was thinking that characters could be pulled into a wormhole and one of the battlefields would be the top of ultra megalopolis, with ultra necrozma in the background.

And while that Ken leak does look convincing, that shouldn't be indicative of confirming Incineroar, since we all expect Ken to be in anyways with or without Incineroar. But it is concerning regardless.

Even if i do like Incineroar, i'm getting tired of hearing people talk about it like it's the only possible pokemon newcomer for smash. A heel wrestler wouldn't be that interesting considering how many characters use fire and/or focus on throwing, punching and kicking.

That’s why I did say that “we may know are fate soon”. I think Lycanroc could very well be our Robin, and my statement wasn’t that I lost hope for them, I still do. I knew Ken was pretty likely when echoes came around anyways.

My point was that, Incineroar or not, the person that took the picture KNOWS who the Pokémon newcomer is for a fact since the person had a build of the game, the person has the entire roster in their hands. And... it’s pretty scary knowing that we may be an image away from what holds for Lycanroc.

Spoiler: Leak

Ah, so not officially debunked yet. I believe it's only a matter of time before it happens, and even if Ken is in the game the leak isn't true unless he looks exactly like the one in the picture. Knowing some people though, they would likely just think it's real regardless and start believing what that guys says.

If we were to have a support discord made I would say that having Delzethin create and own it is the way it should happen as he is the one who made this thread and brought us all together. Just makes sense in my opinion.

I don’t think I would brush of the leak just yet.

Unlike most other people, they’re not specifically following Verge to try to confirm this leak, but the image itself. In fact, the dude that got a hold of this is far more reliable than Vergeben will ever be, or really any leaker that needs to get info from second hand sources. A lot of people are breaking it down, and there a lot of things about that would either be difficult to fake, and/or cause the person to have extensive knowledge of the game.

Yeah, I agree, I think Delzethin should be the one who makes it. He was the one who brought up Lycanroc in the first place after all, it all stems from him.

 

[LukeRNG]

Does anyone know if the Incineroar in the concept sheet belongs to ash?

To me it would be weird to have Ash + Kukui with the same pokemon. And also Incineroar did get backlash on it's announcement. So to me it doesn't make sense to choose Incineroar: there's a lot against it.

 

[LukeRNG]

I'm kind of hoping that there's no leaks regarding the entire roster or t least the pokemon character, it would be awful to have another ESRB type of leak.
How would the reveal trailer go anyway? Who would die?

 

[Guynamednelson]

Who would die?

The belief that Verg is 1000% right is what dies.

 

[Delzethin]

Easy on the double posts, guys. That's generally frowned on if it hasn't been 24 hours. The thread's moving quickly enough tonight that you probably won't have to wait long anyway.

Good choice of game to reference. Did it once myself in the general thread. Also, Delzethin I think I'd like to join the support list, the past few months of speculation have caused a certain rock wolf that I once didn't care about in the slightest to grow on me. Let's hope Sakurai made the right choice to represent SuMo (if they added a Pokémon at all that is)

Welcome. While everyone's a bit uneasy around here for obvious reasons, we're not done yet. After all, you of all people would know most that Anything can change!

Sure thing, Del.

View attachment 165854

Figure I might as well mention this too. I still have the file used for making recolors, along with the files used for the Decidueye and Incineroar recolors I made. For whichever one makes it in Smash, I plan on taking requests from their respective supporters for recolors. Probably make eight or less, depending on how many palette swaps are revealed in photographs.

As for your comment on discussion dying down a bit, I certainly hope things here pick back up. A lot of things seem to be stacked against Lycanroc, and I'd hate to see hope and discussion die. Though there's still no guarantee of it happening, if any character may be the Robin of Smash Ultimate, its Lycanroc. And I'm not giving up on him until its over.

Unfortunately for Decidueye, we don't really have that luxury. And so conversation there is almost completely dead, with most having made their peace. For the most part, I have as well. Which kinda lead to me migrating to this thread for Pokemon discussion. Said it before, but I appreciate being taking in.

Thanks for the refresher. Didn't you also do sets for Midday and Midnight? Or was that someone else?

And it's disappointing to hear the Decidueye thread has fallen so silent. Can't say I blame them, though--seems like roster speculation as a whole has taken a mean-spritied turn in the past week. But for now, we're still here, and it seems like here we'll stay barring anything other than a hard deconfirmation...or the opposite.

I want to say something after seeing what happened with the recent ken leak... consider this as a sort of important announcement of sort.

We are on the line, this person may potentially already know the entire roster and what are fate holds against us. I’m getting really nervous right now... we may know the Pokémon newcomer any day now, and we may know if it’s Lycanroc or not.

Any thoughts?

Spoiler: Regarding the Possible Leak

Everyone, remain calm. I know it's easy to freak out and start cycling through worst case scenarios--you saw one of mine the other day--but we want to look at everything in context. If this is real, the full screenshot appears to be a debug mode of an earlier build than anything that has been publically shown, including the E3 build. Odds are, if it's legitimate, it's not a sign that someone has a current or final build, rather it's probably a photo someone took in-house at least half a year ago at minimum.

Far as Ken himself goes...well, he's been considered a super safe pick ever since Richter was revealed. Up until then, the main reason people were skeptical on him was because we weren't sure whether third party echoes were going to happen. After Richter showed up, consensus became "yeah, we're probably getting Shadow and Ken too".

Of course, there's also the chance that Ken isn't an echo and is a semi-clone like Isabelle. That'd open up a whole other can of worms, but if this leak is real, it tells us nothing about his exact nature as a fighter.

Basically...I don't think this says anything about any character other than Ken himself. He was so likely to get in, based on what we've known as of August, that he doesn't help out any other prospective leaks on his own. Logically, anyway.

While we are on leak discussion, there's a slight light that may lead to something good.

Recently a leaker named Senjougahara_Hitagi has been making the round for his leaks on fighting games. These include the announcement of King of Fighters 15, the announcement of a Samurai Showdown Reboot, and the announcement of Android 17 (in his ranger uniform) as DBZ Fighters DLC. 10 days ago, he leaked the remaining four newcomers:

>A Square Enix character
>A recent Pokemon
>Isabelle (who has since been confirmed, obviously)
>Steve (from Minecraft)

Even Vergeben, the current king of Smash leaks, has admitted that there may be some legitimacy to his source (although he also admitted there are some differences with his list and Hitagi's). The thing that catches my attention, aside from Steve (obviously), but its the fact he says "a recent Pokemon" rather than Incineroar. While this was before Vergeben doubled down on Incineroar, he was still considered the clear forerunner in as far as Pokemon go (largely due to Vergeben's claims about Decidueye and Lycanroc). If Hitagi does have legitimate information, why would be deliberately vague about a character he knows? There are two explanations I can see: Hitagi either wants to seperate himself from Vergeben, or one of the differences between him and Vergeben is knowledge on who the Pokemon newcomer is.

Granted, I could also be making a whole lot of nothing out of a guy posting lies on the Internet, but we're in the eleventh hour and any possible hint is more than welcome,

Yeah, we should keep an eye on this one. While we don't know exactly what could be going on--maybe this guy's sources weren't sure on the newcomer's identity, or maybe he himself isn't into Pokémon enough to pinpoint any--it gives us a potential lead that may be getting overlooked.

Does anyone know if the Incineroar in the concept sheet belongs to ash?

To me it would be weird to have Ash + Kukui with the same pokemon. And also Incineroar did get backlash on it's announcement. So to me it doesn't make sense to choose Incineroar: there's a lot against it.

That's the thing: We don't know. We don't even know if that sketch was meant to be canon in the first place. It's all people jumping to conclusions and deciding it must be proof that Ash is going to have an Incineroar as his ace and ignoring all the evidence to the contrary because...apparently they're utterly convinced the ace has to be a starter, for some reason. Meanwhile, the 'mon that's been doing actual ace things for the last year-plus hardly gets a mention. It's infuriating, getting waved off without anyone actually bothering to look at you, and watching it happen to a character you care about still hurts.

The worst part? Up until a little over a month ago, that concept art was completely ignored because the common thought was that Decidueye was a lock. And now it's suddenly absolute proof? What kind of doublethought is that?

You're also correct about the anime preferring not to have two 'mons of the same species and form both be major characters, at least not at the same time. One notable recent example is how the anime gave Olivia a Midday Lycanroc instead of her Midnight one from the games to avoid doubling up with Gladion's Midnight one, who has shown up more often. Or back in Kalos, Serena's rival figure Aria had a Delphox as her signature Pokémon, and sure enough, Serena's Braixen never evolved. So why does that suddenly not matter now? It sure seems like they just want to be right and "win" and so dismiss anything that could interfere with that.

Would sure be nice to upend the bandwagons a second time. We know it can be done; it happened four years and two months ago.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The idea of a Discord group is...intriguing, and I can see the merits to it. But...right now, I think we're best off keeping everything out in the open for the time being. We stand to gain more from having other people see all of this talk and consider pitching in themselves. Let's keep the idea on the backburner for now.

Facing difficult odds, yet still trying to stand firm and keep moving...what music fits a feeling like that?

Ah. I know.

 

[Maikou]

Remain calm. Remember, leaks are never foolproof. No matter how legitimate it might seem, there's always the possibility it's fake. Even if it's not, can we really say if Ken is an Echo or not based on the image? I would say no, and even if the Ken leak turns out to be true, the question of whether he's an Echo Fighter or unique is important. Ken may be the original moveset clone in fighting games, but he's been Luigified for years, at least enough to be a semiclone if Sakurai so chooses.

That said, assuming we find out early that Lycanroc isn't our Pokemon newcomer......I'd certainly be greatly disappointed. Around as disappointed as I'll be if Bandana Dee isn't in the game, though I think this is a bit worse because Lycanroc has actual rivals who could legitimately be in over our character, unlike Bandana Dee, where there aren't really many other characters who make sense as a new Kirby character. But nothing says for certain we can't see two Pokemon newcomers, or simply none at all. Honestly, if we can't get our canine continent cracker, I'd rather either Braixen/Delphox or no new mons at all.

On a brighter note, I've got some ideas for taunts and win poses, both for Dusk Lycanroc and the Midday/Midnight duo. Few things are as important to conveying a character's personality as their taunts and victory poses, as every single person who overlooked Zelda but now loves her will attest. First, Dusk Form:

Up taunt: A very short but triumphant howl. As Delzethin stated in the concept video, it's obligatory for a wolf to let out a dramatic howl at some point.
Side taunt: Takes a more defensive posture, growling and snarling as Lycanroc's eyes briefly flash red. Sort of a way to convey Dusk Lycanroc's personality, and how it'd prefer not to fight, though with the red flash indicating that it's willing to if need be.
Down taunt: Sits and yawns. I'm sure you can't possibly guess which famous video game wolf this might maybe reference.

Victory pose 1: A more dramatic, extended howl to the sky in an epic pose. After the howl ends, Lycanroc looks at the camera with its tail wagging.
Victory pose 2: Sits and yawns, then lays down.
Victory pose 3: Lycanroc scratches its neck with its eyes closed, then shakes off some pebbles and opens its eyes as the red glow fades.

Midday and Midnight Forms (this kind of assumes we get a Trainer in the background for switching like I suggested in my last post):

Midday Up taunt: A short but somewhat mournful howl. Something a bit truer to the most pacifistic of Lycanroc's forms, a dramatic howl that makes it seem upset that the fight is happening at all.
Midday Side taunt: Briefly takes a defensive posture with a low growl. Mostly a sort of warning, again conveying that Midday really doesn't want to fight.
Midday Down taunt: Sits, conjuring a rock slightly larger than Lycanroc's paw underneath a foreleg. Midday closes its eyes as it quickly smashes the rock with said forepaw, keeping its eyes closed until it gets back into its normal stance.

Midnight Up taunt: A quick, eager howl showing Midnight's battle thirst.
Midnight Side taunt: Raises an arm and does the "bring it" gesture with one claw while barking/growling in a manner as though laughing at the opponent. Partially inspired the animation for the actual move Taunt in the Pokemon games.
Midnight Down taunt: Lycanroc stomps the ground, launching a rock slightly bigger than its forepaws into the air in front of it and catches the rock, then shatters it by punching its other paw into the first, all with a menacing smirk.

Victory pose 1: An extended, victorious howl with the two Lycanroc facing away from each other. After the howl, Midday lies down, while Midnight simply smirks at the camera as their Trainer pets them both.
Victory pose 2: Midday tackle-hugs its Trainer and licks their face in affection.
Victory pose 3: Midnight quickly breaks three small stone pillars in one strike each, then give the "bring it" gesture to the camera with one forepaw.

What do you think? I tried to make sure each form's personality shines through while sort-of adhering to obligatory canine tropes, like howling. Ironically no digging motions despite the rock-typing and them all being canines, but I couldn't resist all the Ammy references with Dusk form, nor could I resist giving Midday an "affection" sort of victory animation, which is based mostly on one of Ivysaur's victory poses.

 

[DeltaSceptile]

Lycanroc is still the only character I don’t see people arguing about or giving up on after Vergeben’s leaks. Good job guys!