Day, Night, and Dusk - Lycanroc for Smash Bros. Ultimate

[BluePikmin11]

God dang it Sakurai, reveal the Pokemon newcomer already. ;-;

 

[Cosmic77]

Not sure if anyone remembered, but the vacuum Luigi uses in Luigi's Mansion 3 is the same one we saw in Simon's trailer.

A small detail, but I think this confirms that games coming out in 2019 still have a chance of being represented in Smash somehow. At least now 2017, the year US/UM came out, doesn't look nearly as intimidating at it did before.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Incineroar a lock despite Vergeben saying not to.

Some people never learn.

 

[RandomAce]

Not sure if anyone remembered, but the vacuum Luigi uses in Luigi's Mansion 3 is the same one we saw in Simon's trailer.

A small detail, but I think this confirms that games coming out in 2019 still have a chance of being represented in Smash somehow. At least now 2017, the year US/UM came out, doesn't look nearly as intimidating at it did before.

Hey, you were right after all... I was thinking about you when Luigi’s mansion 3 was revealed.

Some people never learn.

Delzethin pretty much put it perfectly here, Lycanroc is Ultimate’s Robin.

Get’s shunned and “deconfirmed” by the community, or not spoken of at all because another character they thought was the one getting in because of either a leak, or that they just have to get in because it “points to them”. Only to have their expectations crushed when a reveal shows the opposite of what people expected, since they over looked something important, in this case Robin’s potential, which Lycanroc also has.

Oh god, it looks too similar now that I think about it.

 

[Smashoperatingbuddy123]

Well Vergeben doesn’t hurt us too much even though it’s more creditable

No lycanroc and incineroar is not necessary perfect info

Vergeben even said all he knows is we are getting a Pokémon rep

 

[Deleted member]

Lycanroc chances are still good. Still supporting it till the end.

 

[valkiriforce]

Same here, I'm a supporter all the way through. I'd love to see Lycanroc get their chance to shine again.

 

[Delzethin]

So, lot of talk going around at the moment. Based on the current situation, I think we need to consider the now-realistic chance of there not being any new Pokémon in the base roster. As unlikely as it seemed six months ago, now it feels legitimately possible.

However, I think this would actually harm us far less than the rest of the Gen 7 Pokémon. There'll almost surely be DLC, maybe even multiple seasons of it like what the other big fighting games have been doing. Gen 8 is coming at the end of next year, but Gen 7 will still have a window of relevance all the way up until Gen 8's release...and despite the usual talk of adding characters early to "promote" new games, it's never actually happened before. Corrin wasn't a true case of it since Fire Emblem Fates had been out in Japan for 7 months by the time of his/her inclusion, and Roy was due to extenuating circumstances since his game was originally planned to be out before Melee but got delayed!

So if it came down to DLC...I dunno about you guys, but I actually feel pretty confident that if they looked at Gen 7 now, after everything that's happened within the Pokémon franchise in the last couple years, Dusk Lycanroc would be their first choice. We wouldn't be frontrunners on the level of Rex or Spring Man or (if he isn't in the base roster) Bandana Dee, but we'd have a notable chance all the way up until Gen 8 was released. In a way, our greatest obstacle would change from competition within the franchise to a distant deadline.

Thoughts, everyone?

 

[AlphaSSB]

I was about to mention that idea myself, Del. Funny how even though I'm primarily a Decidueye supporter, the Lycanroc support thread became my home for Pokemon speculation. Thanks for taking me in, guys.

On the topic, I think it's very possible. Especially when you take into account that Pokemon received the most fighters going from Smash 4 to now, being three with Pichu, Squirtle, and Ivysaur all returning. Sakurai very well could've thought that the influx of Pokemon veterans made a Pokemon newcomer unnecessary.

Thing is... it's Pokemon. One of Nintendo's largest series, and a series Sakurai has always been sure to include a newcomer with. Counting Pokemon Trainer as one character means that there's seven fighters from the series, just one away from an 8-Player Smash with them all.

I don't know. The only thing going against Incineroar is if he ends up in the Spirits mode as a boss. Skull Kid and Shadow, two other antagonistic figures with a lot going for them, could end up being in the Spirits mode instead of playable as well. We've seen the big bosses such as Dracula and Rathalos, but that's all we've seen. There could be mini-bosses, or boss fighters like that of Metal Mario back in Smash 64. Not to mention the enemies we'll fight along the way, which could be where Decidueye and Lycanroc fell into if Verge's sources were correct.

 

[GlaceonGD]

You do bring up a good point and I have seen the "no newcomers until dlc" theory around quite a bit. Lycanroc as a dlc fighter would still be great and a much better chance for his character to be as unique as possible. And I mean a year is more than enough time for Lycanroc to still be relevant so it is an interesting proposition, and I'm happy no matter which way it gets in.

 

[RandomAce]

So, lot of talk going around at the moment. Based on the current situation, I think we need to consider the now-realistic chance of there not being any new Pokémon in the base roster. As unlikely as it seemed six months ago, now it feels legitimately possible.

However, I think this would actually harm us far less than the rest of the Gen 7 Pokémon. There'll almost surely be DLC, maybe even multiple seasons of it like what the other big fighting games have been doing. Gen 8 is coming at the end of next year, but Gen 7 will still have a window of relevance all the way up until Gen 8's release...and despite the usual talk of adding characters early to "promote" new games, it's never actually happened before. Corrin wasn't a true case of it since Fire Emblem Fates had been out in Japan for 7 months by the time of his/her inclusion, and Roy was due to extenuating circumstances since his game was originally planned to be out before Melee but got delayed!

So if it came down to DLC...I dunno about you guys, but I actually feel pretty confident that if they looked at Gen 7 now, after everything that's happened within the Pokémon franchise in the last couple years, Dusk Lycanroc would be their first choice. We wouldn't be frontrunners on the level of Rex or Spring Man or (if he isn't in the base roster) Bandana Dee, but we'd have a notable chance all the way up until Gen 8 was released. In a way, our greatest obstacle would change from competition within the franchise to a distant deadline.

Thoughts, everyone?

Honestly, I don’t really want to gamble at it.

Yes, Gen 8 would still be a year away from release, but it’s going to be Nintendo’s BIG game for 2019 as it’s going to be the first ever console Core-RPG game. And by the time Sakurai will consider DLC, the game may actually have it’s main Pokémon set in stone, and Sakurai might be more inclined to select a Pokémon from that game instead.

Is it possible we can get a Gen 7 Pokémon as DLC if they don’t get in the base game. It’s possible, but we would face a lot obstacles. It really depends on whether Sakurau would want to go back to Gen 7 and if he wants to spend his time working on Lycanroc as DLC when there is an upcoming game on the horizon. But who knows, maybe he thinks Lycanroc is worth enough to add later as a DLC character while Gen 7 is still running, since he does have that earth motif and all the other things we mentioned with forms, boost mechanics, etc. and since Lycanroc is one of Gen 7’s most popular Pokémon he might be more inclined to have Lycanroc in the game. I’ll be fine with that if he gets Lycanroc in the game as playable, whether as DLC or not. In fact, Lycanroc would be our clear Gen 7 front runner if Sakurai indeed decides to add one for DLC.

Although we can consider the possibility of no Gen 7 being in the base roster, there are a lot of obstacles ahead of us if that happens, not to mention that it’s still very possible we may get a Gen 7 Pokémon in the base roster.

Vergeben and many other sources, although they don’t know who it is, are very confident that a Gen 7 Pokémon is in fact in, not to mention that the moveset potential Lycanroc can bring may be enough for Sakurai to indeed work on him in the intial plan.

We still have a strong chance for the base roster, let’s not give up hope yet.

 

[Cosmic77]

Not to rain on the parade, but I'm not feeling so good about Lycanroc getting in as DLC. Not only would Gen VIII be right around the corner to make Gen VII look like old news, but that would also mean Sakurai would be able to take into account the massive outcry for Decidueye.

I still say it's base game or bust for Lycanroc. That being said, I think we're overreacting a bit. Yes, Isabelle threw a wrench in our predictions, but it's not like we were the only ones effected. Even the more popular characters like Geno and Skull Kid have reason to worry. For me personally, I'm not gonna freak out until we get a Pokemon remix on the official site. The fact that we're still missing one makes me think we're getting a double release of a Gen VII rep and a Su/Mo remix.

 

[SupriceSupplies]

So, lot of talk going around at the moment. Based on the current situation, I think we need to consider the now-realistic chance of there not being any new Pokémon in the base roster. As unlikely as it seemed six months ago, now it feels legitimately possible.

However, I think this would actually harm us far less than the rest of the Gen 7 Pokémon. There'll almost surely be DLC, maybe even multiple seasons of it like what the other big fighting games have been doing. Gen 8 is coming at the end of next year, but Gen 7 will still have a window of relevance all the way up until Gen 8's release...and despite the usual talk of adding characters early to "promote" new games, it's never actually happened before. Corrin wasn't a true case of it since Fire Emblem Fates had been out in Japan for 7 months by the time of his/her inclusion, and Roy was due to extenuating circumstances since his game was originally planned to be out before Melee but got delayed!

So if it came down to DLC...I dunno about you guys, but I actually feel pretty confident that if they looked at Gen 7 now, after everything that's happened within the Pokémon franchise in the last couple years, Dusk Lycanroc would be their first choice. We wouldn't be frontrunners on the level of Rex or Spring Man or (if he isn't in the base roster) Bandana Dee, but we'd have a notable chance all the way up until Gen 8 was released. In a way, our greatest obstacle would change from competition within the franchise to a distant deadline.

Thoughts, everyone?

I'm inclined to agree.
I've personally found it weird that people talked about "promotion" atleast when it comes to Pokémon since I'd think Pokémon is the very last franchise that'd need promotion like that over say, Xenoblade?

As for a potential gen 7 DLC newcomer, as Cosmic77 mentioned, Decidueye does seem to be the biggest fan favourite when it comes to gen 7, and with Ultimate so far having mostly revealed fan favourites, I can see it working against Lycanroc. (Though I recall hearing that Decidueye isn't the most popular starter in Japan so it may not work too much against Lycanroc either I think?) But if Sakurai chooses characters like he did in Smash 4 for Ultimate DLC, then I can see Lycanroc happening outside of the base roster, but if he isn't one of the first DLC newcomers, I'm really not inclined to believe he's got much of a shot. He's got up to the first trailer/name reveal of the gen 8 games to get in, I feel. Same goes for all the other Gen 7 Pokémon.

Of course, this is all assuming we're not getting a gen 7 newcomer in the first place, which I feel like may very well happen, but I'm not entirely convinced it's for certain. I'm primarily a Bandana Dee supporter myself, so I'd be lying if I said there wasn't a part of me who kind of wants it to happen to lessen first party competition to only say, other high requests such as Skull Kid and Isaac (since I feel Bandana Dee, Isaac, Skull Kid, and a new Pokémon character have the highest chances of getting in before DLC, at which point Rex/Pyra and perhaps Spring Man would join as well), but if we are to get a new Pokémon, Lycanroc is most definitely at the top of my wishlist when it comes to that franchise.

To summarize: I think gen 7's got up to the first trailer/name reveal for a playable character announcement. And depending on what Sakurai decides to base his choices off for Ultimate DLC, I can easily see Lycanroc being one of the biggest frontrunners.

 

[DeltaSceptile]

Still holding out for Sceptile from the ballot period, and Lycanroc for being the only memorable gen 7 mon.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Looks like I gotta prepare to swallow a huge pill now:

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/234547-super-smash-bros-ultimate/77008096

I guess Sakurai did find something striking about Incineroar. I am wondering where the Pokemon anime's direction is going with Lycanroc now.

 

[Delzethin]

I imagine you've probably heard by now, with how fast news spreads around the boards. Vergeben is doubling down on Incineroar, claiming he has multiple sources backing him up. This has become as dire as the reign of the Gematsu leak...and...I'm not sure how much we can count on a miracle happening a second time.

After all I've tried, everything I've done to defy that fate...all I've managed to accomplish is putting targets on all of your backs. Some leader I am.

If you have any last hesitations or second thoughts, you may want to leave now...or even change sides. I remember vividly how things were four years ago. Our mere existence is about to become a point of mockery, each one of us who remain are going to be sought out and harassed by those who only care about "winning" and humiliating the "losers". This very thread will probably be invaded by gawkers, come to laugh at us and tell us to "stop lying to yourselves". We may even have the site staff themselves get in on it--I know, it's hard to believe, but all of this happened back then to people who supported anyone who wasn't mentioned in those leaks. If any of you wish to remain, I feel I need to warn you that you'll be exposed to the same fate.

Just because my legacy is one of failure and futility doesn't mean yours should have to be too. Think long and hard about if you're willing to shoulder that burden...for your sake.

 

[Cosmic77]

Geez, what's with the early surrender? Was Gematsu right about Chrom all along?

Yes, Verge's sources are doubling down on Incineroar, but for what reason? Do they know for sure that Incineroar is the next Pokemon, or are they making an educated guess because their luck hasn't run out yet? People can make mistakes, and people can get things wrong. I'd definitely say Incineroar is the most likely choice at this point, but I would never be as bold as to say he's guaranteed.

Point is, have a little more faith in your character. Not saying you have to deny the obvious, but I don't think you should give up so easily either, especially when it's over a character you've been so passionate about. Just wait until an official disconfirmation.

 

[BluePikmin11]

I guess the biggest flaw I made was looking at moveset potential for Pokemon newcomers primarily based on typing and letting the thought of more promotion get the best of me.

I felt there was a good chance that Sakurai might have found potential in other Pokemon, based on character archetype. We had Rosalina with the puppeter, we had Ike as the Burly Swordsman. I better pay attention fighting character archetypes and design more carefully the next time I predict a Pokemon newcomer. Cause even when there was a ninja esque character with Sheik, Sakurai still found potential in Greninja way back in Smash 4's project plan.

I gotta consider everything, even if that Pokemon is less promoted and is of a similar typing to other Pokemon in the roster.

At the least, I was right about Decidueye not getting in. It is a small victory, though Incineroar kinda shatters it, haha!

 

[AlphaSSB]

There could always be a Gematsu situation, where Incineroar being picked is old info and he was replaced later on. But at this point, I've got nothing to lose by just assuming that the last newcomer Incineroar.

If he is, then assuming ahead of time softens the blow, and saves me from disappointment. Hopefully his full potential as a grappler will be realized, since my biggest qualm with Incineroar is its potential of falling flat.

If he isn't, then I'm in for an actual surprise. A pleasant one if the Pokemon actually ends up being Decidueye or Lycanroc.

 

[Garteam]

Figured I'd put in my thoughts regarding Vergeben doubling down on Incineroar:

This stings, there's no way around it. Having Vergeben confirm Incineroar is a huge nail in our coffin, that's true. We're in the 9th round and just took a massive right hook straight to the jaw. However, it is worth noting that Vergeben is far from perfect. He has a bad habit of not properly vetting information such as the Switch port of Soul Caliber VI and Raditz and Zarbon getting into FighterZ. Hell, we're still waiting on that Minecraft content he promised, aren't we? Even though he claims "every source" he has has seen Incineroar, the fault of human error is still a very real thing. One of things that's bothered me about this speculation period is no one is confident to venture outside of what a leaker has said. Even the bread and butter 4Chan leaks have been "ya, whatever Vergeben and Loz said, plus Issac and Banjo, whatever". I think it's part of the reason Isabelle caught people off guard, no one had leaked her as a unique character on the roster.

Besides, we still have practical evidence in our corner. Why would Sakurai choose to include another fiery heavy weight if he prioritizes moveset diversity and uniqueness above all else? Why would the Pokemon Company promote having Incineroar in Smash when he's only been a bit player in the anime and has limited merchandise? The only way I could Incineroar getting around the moveset issue is if he's in an Isabelle situation and is a semi-clone of another fighter (probably Bowser, although maybe Charizard or Ridley may give some influence), which would be... odd. The only reason I could see that happening is if higher powers mandated that Sakurai had to include some Gen 7 'mon, and then took the fastest route to getting the easiest one to make out the door. Also, why would the anime switch gears to make Incineroar Ash's main when they've put so much effort into Lycanroc thus far? Even as their pre-evolved forms, it was clear that previous aces such as Sceptile, Greninja, and Infernape were going to Ash's primary powerhouse for the region, which is something we haven't really seen with Torracat. Even back in season 1, it could be seen that Ash's Charmander was step above his other, non-Pikachu Pokemon. It doesn't make any sense from a writing perspective to abandon a character mid-arc, only to have another, less popular, character take over and have the exact same arch for absolutely no reason.

Thusly I say, let the detractors come. I really don't give a **** about what they have to say at this point. Many of them probably aren't willing to listen to an idea that doesn't have a leaker or the ballot backing it up. I like Lycanroc, I like the potential he brings to the Smash roster, and I also like this community. Lycanroc has slowly grown to be my most wanted over this speculation period, and seeing all the creative ideas and enthusiasm that everyone has for him has made him one of my favourite Pokemon period. The older I get, the more I realize that Smash speculation is much more enjoyable when you discuss what ideas would be interesting and fun rather than trying to be the most "right".

I could care less if this ship sinks straight to the bottom of the sea, I'm staying on it no matter what.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

I imagine you've probably heard by now, with how fast news spreads around the boards. Vergeben is doubling down on Incineroar, claiming he has multiple sources backing him up. This has become as dire as the reign of the Gematsu leak...and...I'm not sure how much we can count on a miracle happening a second time.

After all I've tried, everything I've done to defy that fate...all I've managed to accomplish is putting targets on all of your backs. Some leader I am.

If you have any last hesitations or second thoughts, you may want to leave now...or even change sides. I remember vividly how things were four years ago. Our mere existence is about to become a point of mockery, each one of us who remain are going to be sought out and harassed by those who only care about "winning" and humiliating the "losers". This very thread will probably be invaded by gawkers, come to laugh at us and tell us to "stop lying to yourselves". We may even have the site staff themselves get in on it--I know, it's hard to believe, but all of this happened back then to people who supported anyone who wasn't mentioned in those leaks. If any of you wish to remain, I feel I need to warn you that you'll be exposed to the same fate.

Just because my legacy is one of failure and futility doesn't mean yours should have to be too. Think long and hard about if you're willing to shoulder that burden...for your sake.

I won't give up on you (even if I also make fun of you. Can't help)

I've adored many speculators in my run, including another member of the pack (Thanks to you too, BluePikmin11 this epilogue speculation phase was a blast just as much as Smash 4's main course) and some of the more well-known ones. That said, your dedication to each and every character you set your mind on turns into one of my most wanted. I've seen it with Delphox and you did it again with Lycanroc. Even if Daisy speculation took most of my attention and made me lose interest in what used to be my most wanted, like Bandana Dee, Dixie Kong and K. Rool, your keen eye and natural flair turned every post you made into gold. I didn't get my own clear view on Lycanroc's potential, which is normally an absolute must for characters for me, but your videos and unbridled dedication made this a really nice place and I'm proud to have made this another home for the main deal of speculation.

These words a matter of pride.
Even if people with no powers of retention will barge into the thread, we can hold our head high. In all the meticulous planning, you never get caught unawares about the selection process of Pokémon and the roles in the anime. Of course, you had your phases of denial about other contenders but your eye was always on Lycanroc and on succession of the Alola Ace. Thick as it was, you pay attention. The lights are always on upstairs.
I'm just happy that the ride for this underdog has been with the absolute king of Smash Ultimate speculation, a king that I know will be all-time adored.

Now, in this tenacity-spanning aftermath, I suppose you want to talk about where you will feature in the ranks of Smash speculation. I don't know, but your videos are always informative and the best insight in Smash development I've seen. I know it sounds sordid, but your work has been rewarded. You've got many great subscribers and you deserved them for your digging work and clear-cut analysis. Even though the Lycanroc speculation you did might not be given its dues, it was still great!

Yes, now the fire cat might have pulled the coup of the century in a leak with the murkiest scam.
Less sensational news, I suppose.
But nobody speculated on Cinero as much as you did for Lycanroc. You even mentioned the decades of denial present in Pokémon speculation and now you warmed up a lot of new people to the idea of Smash speculation.

And that, that grassroots digging for a choice many did away for not being the succession to Greninja, is why this thread will always be king. Undisputed.
I respect and salute you and I hope people will see you for the wonder you are.

Now, in the final stretch, teeth and ambitions are bared.
But you know what, Delz?

I know,
You're prepared

 

[Guynamednelson]

Eh, I won't believe it until I get video evidence. I feel like this community is exaggerating how much the Pokemon Company is pushing Incineroar, to the point where if Ash's Lycanroc kicked an Incineroar's ass without getting hit once, that would still be pushing Incineroar somehow.

 

[BluePikmin11]

I thought about Incineroar being a semi-clone of Bowser and Charizard, and it is a possibility I suppose.

Maybe we get a unique newcomer like Lycanroc with Incineroar as a semi-clone, but I think that is just me stretching to the highest degree. lol

Now I gotta wonder what that random tweet of Nintendo of America randomly posting about Lycanroc was about.

God if that possibility happened, I would be stoked as hell. The very last bit of hope turned around with an earned victory, that would be amazing.

 

[Garteam]

I thought about Incineroar being a semi-clone of Bowser and Charizard, and it is a possibility I suppose.

Maybe we get a unique newcomer like Lycanroc with Incineroar as a semi-clone, but I think that is just me stretching to the highest degree. lol

Now I gotta wonder what that random tweet of Nintendo of America randomly posting about Lycanroc was about.

This is kinda the way I think things may have gone down:
-Sakurai finishes the project plan. In his project plan, he details Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Pichu's return. However, he has no Gen 7 Pokemon in the plan.
-Sakurai goes to the Pokemon Company to ask for the rights to use Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Pichu. The Pokemon Company agrees, on the condition that he puts in a Gen 7 Pokemon for promotion. In order to make the whole "everyone is here" thing work, he agrees.
-Sakurai is at a cross-road. He can either rewrite the project plan to compensate for a new Gen 7 Pokemon, or he can make a Gen 7 'mon in a way that is less unique, but would not drastically change the project plan. He opts for the latter.
-Game Freak sends over the design sketches for some Gen 7 Pokemon. Instead of looking for his choice based on who would be unique/who is getting a large amount of promotion, Sakurai makes his choice based on who would be the most easy/least resource intensive of the group.
-Sakurai releases that Incineroar has the most standard body type of the group, and his moveset could be largely drawn from Bowser, K. Rool, and Charizard.
-This ease of development pushes Incineroar to be Sakurai's choice for a gen 7 'mon.
-Incineroar is developed using the assets of other fighters ala Wolf in Brawl.

Obviously, this is all wild theories with no real basis in proof. However, I think it provides a reasonable set of circumstances that would lead to Incineroar becoming the Gen 7 Pokemon.

 

[BluePikmin11]

If that is how things ended up when choosing a single 7th generation Pokemon, I would be pretty disappointed, not gonna lie.

That is a possibility, and it is something that makes me warm up to Incineroar somehow (If that is the reasoning Sakurai states after the Pokemon newcomer is revealed in future interviews), but opting to choose a Pokemon easier for development over a unique choice feels so unlike Sakurai.

 

[False Sense]

I imagine you've probably heard by now, with how fast news spreads around the boards. Vergeben is doubling down on Incineroar, claiming he has multiple sources backing him up. This has become as dire as the reign of the Gematsu leak...and...I'm not sure how much we can count on a miracle happening a second time.

After all I've tried, everything I've done to defy that fate...all I've managed to accomplish is putting targets on all of your backs. Some leader I am.

If you have any last hesitations or second thoughts, you may want to leave now...or even change sides. I remember vividly how things were four years ago. Our mere existence is about to become a point of mockery, each one of us who remain are going to be sought out and harassed by those who only care about "winning" and humiliating the "losers". This very thread will probably be invaded by gawkers, come to laugh at us and tell us to "stop lying to yourselves". We may even have the site staff themselves get in on it--I know, it's hard to believe, but all of this happened back then to people who supported anyone who wasn't mentioned in those leaks. If any of you wish to remain, I feel I need to warn you that you'll be exposed to the same fate.

Just because my legacy is one of failure and futility doesn't mean yours should have to be too. Think long and hard about if you're willing to shoulder that burden...for your sake.

Dude, I was there too.

The world's not gonna end.

Whatever happens, you guys will be fine.

 

[DeltaSceptile]

Whatever happened to push for Lycanroc? Also, I still don't think the newcomer would be Incineroar. He isn't even pushed by the pokemon company in any way, aside from being a starter. Decidueye at least has popularity, but Incineroar is the biggest bandwagon by far, even moreso than Skull Kid. With that said, don't give up on Lycanroc just yet! He's not out of the running, and if Sakurai thought Isabelle would be fun to implement, he probably had the same thought in mind when choosing a pokemon, so I firmly believe that Incineroar is not who he picked for this game! Just look at all the newcomer choices so far: they all bring something new to the table, which is why Lycanroc would be chosen over Incineroar. As much as I hate Isabelle being unique, she just strengthens my point as to what Sakurai's thought process for newcomers in this game is.

 

[valkiriforce]

Eh, I wouldn't really take what Vergeben says as gospel; I still think there's room for more surprises, and there's always room for someone to be wrong. I would like to think Nintendo is far more cautious about any information concerning Smash, and from what I understand they have taken some action to ensure this. It just wouldn't be as fun to know everything before it actually happens, and I was still surprised by both the August Direct and the previous reveal of Isabelle.

Yeah, I'd like to think I'm being cautiously optimistic, and there's a possibility it could be that Incineroar fellow, but honestly it's not over until it's over. It seems odd to me for the same reasons mentioned above for such a well-established character in the anime to go overlooked, and we still haven't seen any Pokeball reveal of them either.

 

[SupriceSupplies]

Well, regardless of what happens, I’ll just repeat what I said from my hyper pessimistic post a few pages back.

I came into this thread of my own free will.
I’m not going to hop off because of some god-damn leaks.
I picked my side and I will go down with it if I have to. I’ve been shown what potential Lycanroc got, I’ve got my personal tastes with me liking canine-like creatures and earth users. I’ll keep rooting. I’m not going to be a bandwagoner who confuses estimated chances and desires. (I’ve seen a handful of them, anyway.)

I can’t deny the possibility of Incineroar happening. But personally, he’d be one of my last choices from what I’ve seen from Gen 7. And if he gets in, then that’s that.

I still stand with the possibility of a Gematsu repeat. Until a Pokémon is revealed, or the last fighter is revealed, I’m not giving up on Lycanroc’s chances.

 

[Cosmic77]

Glad to see some people haven't given up hope yet. I guess that's what separates a follower from a supporter. One cares about being right, while the other cares about the character.

For the record, Incineroar does make sense to me. I know Lycanroc has been hogging the spotlight in the anime, but it shouldn't come as a suprise to anyone that the writers had big plans for Litten from the very beginning. It's gotten some pretty emotional scenes, and it feels like we're slowly building up to a Pokemon league where Incineroar becomes the star of the show, just like Greninja did.

Still think Lycanroc would be the better choice, but at least Incineroar would get some form of anime promotion toward the end to justify his inclusion. Makes it sting a little less than someone like Gothitelle.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Anything and everything is better than Gothitelle.

 

[DeltaSceptile]

I'm still banking on Lycanroc (Well received, heavy push in tcg, anime, AND games) or Tapu Koko (Not gonna lie, this one could be an interesting pick) being the gen 7 rep, OR we could get Sceptile, considering that he would've easily been the most hype during the ballot period, and still people would take him over many other options any day, + gen 3 needs some love. I'm willing to bet all three of these are still in the top 20 most wanted for pokemon newcomers right now.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Anything and everything is better than Gothitelle.

Putting in the ice cream and trash bag Pokemon for those people who think that's all gen V has would be a thousand times better.

 

[GlaceonGD]

I don't care what vergeben says I will always support Lycanroc simply because I do not like incineroar. While yes nearly everyone believes him about it I refuse to believe him until I see it happen, I'm not letting go of my last wanted character because some guy on the internet says it won't happen. I've gotten so much hate worse than what you're talking about by this point in my life that I don't even care about it, I'm a Lycanroc supporter until the end. Just have to keep hoping that vergeben gets something wrong and people take him less seriously.

 

[DeltaSceptile]

I don't care what vergeben says I will always support Lycanroc simply because I do not like incineroar. While yes nearly everyone believes him about it I refuse to believe him until I see it happen, I'm not letting go of my last wanted character because some guy on the internet says it won't happen. I've gotten so much hate worse than what you're talking about by this point in my life that I don't even care about it, I'm a Lycanroc supporter until the end. Just have to keep hoping that vergeben gets something wrong and people take him less seriously.

Nice to see some people not leaving their own wants for a bandwagon.

 

[GlaceonGD]

Nice to see some people not leaving their own wants for a bandwagon.

I've already had to sit through eevee and shovel knight getting deconfirmed (wanting eevee got me more hate than it should have) and I'm not about to give up on my last most wanted left.

 

[DeltaSceptile]

I've already had to sit through eevee and shovel knight getting deconfirmed (wanting eevee got me more hate than it should have) and I'm not about to give up on my last most wanted left.

I've been doing the same for each speculation period. I will admit seeing Ashley and Knuckles deconfirmed stung a bit, but that doesn't mean I'll give up on all the other characters I want.

 

[Questionmark222]

I'll stick by till the end. Not giving up on Lycanroc just yet.

 

[RandomAce]

Well this was an interesting recent set of events that happened.

This is kinda the way I think things may have gone down:
-Sakurai finishes the project plan. In his project plan, he details Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Pichu's return. However, he has no Gen 7 Pokemon in the plan.
-Sakurai goes to the Pokemon Company to ask for the rights to use Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Pichu. The Pokemon Company agrees, on the condition that he puts in a Gen 7 Pokemon for promotion. In order to make the whole "everyone is here" thing work, he agrees.
-Sakurai is at a cross-road. He can either rewrite the project plan to compensate for a new Gen 7 Pokemon, or he can make a Gen 7 'mon in a way that is less unique, but would not drastically change the project plan. He opts for the latter.
-Game Freak sends over the design sketches for some Gen 7 Pokemon. Instead of looking for his choice based on who would be unique/who is getting a large amount of promotion, Sakurai makes his choice based on who would be the most easy/least resource intensive of the group.
-Sakurai releases that Incineroar has the most standard body type of the group, and his moveset could be largely drawn from Bowser, K. Rool, and Charizard.
-This ease of development pushes Incineroar to be Sakurai's choice for a gen 7 'mon.
-Incineroar is developed using the assets of other fighters ala Wolf in Brawl.

Obviously, this is all wild theories with no real basis in proof. However, I think it provides a reasonable set of circumstances that would lead to Incineroar becoming the Gen 7 Pokemon.

Although it seems practical... this isn’t Sakurai.

I doubt the Pokémon Company actually cares about whether they get a Gen 7 Pokémon in Smash or not. If we get a S/M Pokémon, it will be because Sakurai wanted to include a unique character that can provide something unique for the roster and went up to them other than being forced by TPC, that’s a misconception.
—————————————————————
Although we’re now face to face against Vergeben with his claims, I do want to say that I’m still all in for Lycanroc and will support them through and through. This thread is the home to people that have broken down stuff that has been done in the past and converting it to what can happen in the future. We broken down the possibilities and provide a list of reasonings for why Lycanroc can possibly be chosen based on what we have seen. We don’t take the first thing we see, instead we challenge and look at it from a different angle, that is the heart of this thread and that will never change.

It’s why I like discussing with you guys over some of the other support threads. Ones like Incineroar and Decidueye are the epitome of bandwagons. There wasn’t a lot of thought put into them other than, “it has to work” or “this has to happen” because of either an arbitrary reason or because of... well... a leaker. They’re trying to shove Incineroar in as the ace of the anime and overthrow some of the other characters despite Litten only getting development halfway through the anime and forgetting the numerous arcs and buildup Rockruff had with Ash within the same show for over a year, which not only is it not how the anime works... it’s bad writing. The thing I see happening instead is Lycanroc and Incineroar sharing the same role and having their own rivalries and arcs that are seperate from one another. Like Sivally/Midnight against Dusk and Decidueye vs. Incineroar seeing how Ash has a rivalry with both Gladoen and possibly Hau, or the same thing but with Lycanroc still as Ash’s main Pokémon, not getting overthrown by Incineroar.

Now aside from that, what should we do going forward? I think we should be cautiously optimistic. We should be wary that Incineroar might get chosen, which is definitely a possibility, but we shouldn’t drop Lycanroc because all that does is make us the same sheep as the other groups.

I don’t know how likely this is, but this is now becoming a lot more like Gematsu, in the sense that just like Chrom, Incineroar is being pegged as the character from Sun and Moon to get in by a legitimate leaker and now every other character doesn’t seem likely anymore. Robin shared the same fate and was thought that he may not get in, but then everything turned when Robin was actually the one to get in instead. This is a little different, seeing how Verge has multiple sources this time, but since Nintendo has been amping up the security this time, maybe... just maybe Lycanroc can follow suit.

It may be a long shot, but with what we have so far, I’d rather us keep pushing for Lycanroc while we still can than be sitting ducks. Robin fans went through the same thing and things turned out well, why can’t we?

 

[Delzethin]

Everyone...thank you. For staying, and for reminding me that I may have overreacted. I'm so used to sudden, crushing defeats that at times they feel inevitable...but we're not down for the count just yet. And even so, there's still something here worth talking about, something worth making our voices heard for. Even though we may still fail, even if this ends up little more than a black mark held over our heads for as long as others see fit, we can still fight.

We've already spent the entire past six months on the back foot, rarely given more than a scoff and a roll of eyes. How is this all that different?

Besides, we still have practical evidence in our corner. Why would Sakurai choose to include another fiery heavy weight if he prioritizes moveset diversity and uniqueness above all else? Why would the Pokemon Company promote having Incineroar in Smash when he's only been a bit player in the anime and has limited merchandise? The only way I could Incineroar getting around the moveset issue is if he's in an Isabelle situation and is a semi-clone of another fighter (probably Bowser, although maybe Charizard or Ridley may give some influence), which would be... odd. The only reason I could see that happening is if higher powers mandated that Sakurai had to include some Gen 7 'mon, and then took the fastest route to getting the easiest one to make out the door. Also, why would the anime switch gears to make Incineroar Ash's main when they've put so much effort into Lycanroc thus far? Even as their pre-evolved forms, it was clear that previous aces such as Sceptile, Greninja, and Infernape were going to Ash's primary powerhouse for the region, which is something we haven't really seen with Torracat. Even back in season 1, it could be seen that Ash's Charmander was step above his other, non-Pikachu Pokemon. It doesn't make any sense from a writing perspective to abandon a character mid-arc, only to have another, less popular, character take over and have the exact same arch for absolutely no reason.

And the way so much of it has been flat out ignored by most speculators has been beyond frustrating. As someone who's always sought out the details and how they all connect together, seeing so many people I'd consider peers flat out dismiss anything that doesn't line up with what they already believe without even giving it a serious thought...it's enough to make me question whether I really am seeing something they aren't or are just in denial. Am I really just a fool, hoping that the greater community would look at these details beneath the surface?

But Sakurai...he does see these things. He has many times in the past, and even commented on how fans' presumptions of "the truth" are rarely so simple. It's why I've hoped he would see what we have seen. And if he didn't, or if he too dismissed it offhand and suddenly only cared about a first impression from one sheet of concept art and nothing else...well, it'd feel like a punch to the gut.

Eh, I won't believe it until I get video evidence. I feel like this community is exaggerating how much the Pokemon Company is pushing Incineroar, to the point where if Ash's Lycanroc kicked an Incineroar's *** without getting hit once, that would still be pushing Incineroar somehow.

And that's another thing: Every time Pokémon talk has come up over the past month, it's felt like a double standard weighted in favor of whoever was presumed to already be in. Kukui's Incineroar showing up in 3 episodes is treated as "proof" of a long rivalry arc destined to come to a head, yet when Olivia's Lycanroc appears in 5 episodes so far and Gladion gets built up as a true rival figure, with a moon motif to match Ash's sun, and he and his Lycanroc appear in 16 episodes already, it doesn't count. An Incineroar on the team of a movie villain is treated as "proof" of a future starring role espite the movie being about Ho-oh and Marshadow first and foremost...and despite the same damn villain also having a Lycanroc. One sketch of ambiguous purpose in leaked concept art is deemed a sign of who the main 'mon of the generation must be, and every single goddamn thing that has happened afterward is written off as just a passing fad that'll get shoved aside for the real star.

Seriously, can we talk about the doublethought behind that last one? How can they say that the anime writers and artists couldn't have had it planned out a year and a half ahead of the very start of Ultimate's development for Dusk Lycanroc to have been considered important, yet apparently one sketch that may not even be canon and may be even be depicting Kukui's Incineroar is somehow "proof" of plans for something that hasn't happened yet two and a half years later and still hasn't shown signs of happening in the near future? Why has that argument been so widespread when it's so blatantly inconsistent? And it's just been treated as if it were fact without a second thought!

I admit, there's some emotional investment involved here too. I've personally been on the wrong end of this kind of thing more often than I can count. It'd be nice for all of our work to end up meaning something, and for all of these double standards in speculation to fall apart and cause people to actually question them for the first time in four years.

Although we’re now face to face against Vergeben with his claims, I do want to say that I’m still all in for Lycanroc and will support them through and through. This thread is the home to people that have broken down stuff that has been done in the past and converting it to what can happen in the future. We broken down the possibilities and provide a list of reasonings for why Lycanroc can possibly be chosen based on what we have seen. We don’t take the first thing we see, instead we challenge and look at it from a different angle, that is the heart of this thread and that will never change.

It’s why I like discussing with you guys over some of the other support threads. Ones like Incineroar and Decidueye are the epitome of bandwagons. There wasn’t a lot of thought put into them other than, “it has to work” or “this has to happen” because of either an arbitrary reason or because of... well... a leaker. They’re trying to shove Incineroar in as the ace of the anime and overthrow some of the other characters despite Litten only getting development halfway through the anime and forgetting the numerous arcs and buildup Rockruff had with Ash within the same show for over a year, which not only is it not how the anime works... it’s bad writing.

Yeah...if there's one thing we can pride ourselves on that can't be so easily dismissed, it's how in-depth we've been and how much we've thought these things out. One line posts are the exception here, not the rule.

Now aside from that, what should we do going forward? I think we should be cautiously optimistic. We should be wary that Incineroar might get chosen, which is definitely a possibility, but we shouldn’t drop Lycanroc because all that does is make us the same sheep as the other groups.

I don’t know how likely this is, but this is now becoming a lot more like Gematsu, in the sense that just like Chrom, Incineroar is being pegged as a character from Sun and Moon to get in by a legitimate leaker and now every other charcater doesn’t seem likely anymore. Robin shared the same fate and was thought that he may not get in, but then everything turned when Robin was actually the one to get in instead. This is a little different, seeing how Verge has multiple sources this time, but since Nintendo has been amping up the security this time, maybe... just maybe Lycanroc can follow suit.

It may be a long shot, but with what we have so far, I’d rather us keep pushing for Lycanroc while we still can than be sitting ducks. Robin fans went through the same thing and things turned out well, why can’t we?

Yeah, this won't be easy, and it'll be even harder now just to be given the time of day. And while every fiber of logic tells me I cannot trust lightning to strike twice...maybe, somehow, we can tip the scales a second time.

Oh, and I'm also gonna ease up on the music. It's probably starting to get annoying, I bet.