Day, Night, and Dusk - Lycanroc for Smash Bros. Ultimate

[PeridotGX]

I have an idea for a Lycanroc echo: 10% Zygarde. Both are quadrupedal ground types with a somewhat similar body type.

 

[Noipoi]

I have an idea for a Lycanroc echo: 10% Zygarde. Both are quadrupedal ground types with a somewhat similar body type.

Lycanroc's a rock type...
It could work though, however I think Zygarde could work as a boss more.

 

[PeridotGX]

Lycanroc's a rock type...
It could work though, however I think Zygarde could work as a boss more.

Stupid me... (But you can't blame me, Rock and Ground types are incredibly interchangeable)

But yeah, Zygarde would be better as a boss. Maybe 50% or complete Zygarde could be a boss, but after beating it and making it 10% form, it realizes the other characters it fought are the good guys and joins them. IDK, it was just a quick Echo idea that makes a little sence.

 

[Hydra of Chaos]

I have an idea for a Lycanroc echo: 10% Zygarde. Both are quadrupedal ground types with a somewhat similar body type.

Its not very propable, but I really like the idea!

 

[Delzethin]

So, Nintendo's been messing around on social media again.

http://instagr.am/p/BmgZuxcAB01/
I'm sure you've all heard the rumors surrounding Skull Kid at this point. So for one branch of Nintendo to seek out that photo in particular is...curious. But is it a tease toward Skull Kid being playable, or is it just Nintendo UK's social media guy seeing a tongue-in-cheek way of getting the account some attention and followers? Or something else entirely?

Of course, it's worth asking because of the other things Nintendo's various social media accounts have highlighted out of nowhere over the last few months. A graphic for Daisy showed up in March and may have been a tease toward her inclusion as an echo fighter. Then Super Mario RPG got namedropped in May-ish for no apparent reason, raising eyebrows for Geno supporters and those who realize Sakurai is a known fan.

And then this, last month:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Could these all be teases for Ultimate's newcomers? Potentially, but as-is we don't have enough evidence to prove or disprove it.

 

[BluePikmin11]

There was a leak in tehponycorn's batch of leaks that caught my eye.

The only information spoken was that the Pokemon newcomer would be revealed during the Pokemon Championships coming this month.

That is an event to pay attention to in the future. The time to wait for the Pokemon newcomer might not be long after all.

 

[RandomAce]

There was a leak in tehponycorn's batch of leaks that caught my eye.

The only information spoken was that the Pokemon newcomer would be revealed during the Pokemon Championships coming this month.

That is an event to pay attention to in the future. The time to wait for the Pokemon newcomer might not be long after all.

I never thought about it.

It does seem like the perfect time to reveal a new mon since, well, it’s Pokémon related.

When does it start?

 

[BluePikmin11]

https://www.pokemon.com/us/play-pokemon/worlds/2018/about/

It starts on August 24th to 26th.

 

[Delzethin]

There was a leak in tehponycorn's batch of leaks that caught my eye.

The only information spoken was that the Pokemon newcomer would be revealed during the Pokemon Championships coming this month.

That is an event to pay attention to in the future. The time to wait for the Pokemon newcomer might not be long after all.

Do you have a link to that? This is the first I've heard of any that suggested such a thing.

Though for what it's worth, I doubt we'll get a Smash reveal at a non-Smash event. Nintendo's always been careful not to cross the streams like that. If anything, worlds will probably show off another trailer for Let's Go and maybe more Pokkén DLC.

 

[Fell God]

I noticed a bit of despair in this thread over Lycanroc's supposed deconfirmation a while back (yes I read through your entire thread) so I thought I'd give some encouragement. All pure text leaks are lies or predictions now and forever, this is an indisputable law of Smash. Never give up, Lycanroc has a chance, even if he's not on the base roster, push for DLC! He's not out of the running until all of the DLC is done! NEVER GIVE UP!

 

[BluePikmin11]

Do you have a link to that? This is the first I've heard of any that suggested such a thing.

Though for what it's worth, I doubt we'll get a Smash reveal at a non-Smash event. Nintendo's always been careful not to cross the streams like that. If anything, worlds will probably show off another trailer for Let's Go and maybe more Pokkén DLC.

You will have to ask DaybreakHorizon for that, he does not provide links for the leak dumps.

 

[RandomAce]

I noticed a bit of despair in this thread over Lycanroc's supposed deconfirmation a while back (yes I read through your entire thread) so I thought I'd give some encouragement. All pure text leaks are lies or predictions now and forever, this is an indisputable law of Smash. Never give up, Lycanroc has a chance, even if he's not on the base roster, push for DLC! He's not out of the running until all of the DLC is done! NEVER GIVE UP!

Well I’m still not giving up yet, a lot of people here didn’t seem to after what Vergeben said.

But recently there isn’t a lot to talk about at the moment, or it seems.

This thread usually has been always about their chances, but I kinda wished there was just some more casual talk about them. This thread ends becoming barren from time to time as seen here.

 

[PeridotGX]

Well I’m still not giving up yet, a lot of people here didn’t seem to after what Vergeben said.

But recently there isn’t a lot to talk about at the moment, or it seems.

This thread usually has been always about their chances, but I kinda wished there was just some more casual talk about them. This thread ends becoming barren from time to time as seen here.

We could talk about that Echo Fighter idea I came up with awhile back (Dog Zygarde) but yeah there's nothing much.

 

[RandomAce]

We could talk about that Echo Fighter idea I came up with awhile back (Dog Zygarde) but yeah there's nothing much.

I’m not sure about Dog Zygrade being an echo, I feel that their usually popular characters and the dog Zygrade may not be as popular as either Dusk or Midday and I’m not sure if it can the things Lycanroc will do. If we’re getting a Lycanroc echo I’m willing to bet it will either be Dusk as a Midday echo or vise versa.

 

[PeridotGX]

I’m not sure about Dog Zygrade being an echo, I feel that their usually popular characters and the dog Zygrade may not be as popular as either Dusk or Midday and I’m not sure if it can the things Lycanroc will do. If we’re getting a Lycanroc echo I’m willing to bet it will either be Dusk as a Midday echo or vise versa.

Yeah, it's unlikely but I wanted something to talk about. But I do think it makes enough sense, Zygarde was somewhat important for the past 2 Generations and had an anime arc about it, so it's not like it's some obscure nobody from an old gen (coughcoughgothitellecoughcough) and it has a similar enough body structure to Lycanroc (Quadupedal Earthbender). The other Lycanroc form seems like Alternate Costume material.

 

[RandomAce]

Yeah, it's unlikely but I wanted something to talk about. But I do think it makes enough sense, Zygarde was somewhat important for the past 2 Generations and had an anime arc about it, so it's not like it's some obscure nobody from an old gen (coughcoughgothitellecoughcough) and it has a similar enough body structure to Lycanroc (Quadupedal Earthbender). The other Lycanroc form seems like Alternate Costume material.

That’s the same consensus I usually have.

It seems like Midday or Dusk will be an alt on each other and if Midnight also ended up playable along side Midday.

When do you guys predict they will reveal the Pokémon newcomer. My hunch is honestly on September.

 

[PeridotGX]

That’s the same consensus I usually have.

It seems like Midday or Dusk will be an alt on each other and if Midnight also ended up playable along side Midday.

When do you guys predict they will reveal the Pokémon newcomer. My hunch is honestly on September.

I'd say either at the World Championships (Later this month) or in October at a special broadcast (like the and reveals)

 

[Cosmic77]

So, Nintendo's been messing around on social media again.

http://instagr.am/p/BmgZuxcAB01/
I'm sure you've all heard the rumors surrounding Skull Kid at this point. So for one branch of Nintendo to seek out that photo in particular is...curious. But is it a tease toward Skull Kid being playable, or is it just Nintendo UK's social media guy seeing a tongue-in-cheek way of getting the account some attention and followers? Or something else entirely?

Of course, it's worth asking because of the other things Nintendo's various social media accounts have highlighted out of nowhere over the last few months. A graphic for Daisy showed up in March and may have been a tease toward her inclusion as an echo fighter. Then Super Mario RPG got namedropped in May-ish for no apparent reason, raising eyebrows for Geno supporters and those who realize Sakurai is a known fan.

And then this, last month:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Could these all be teases for Ultimate's newcomers? Potentially, but as-is we don't have enough evidence to prove or disprove it.

Although this could very well be a hint, I think we should keep expectations in check. As of now, Daisy is the only one of the eight newcomers who had a random tweet to suggest she might be in Smash, and it's not unusual for a recurring Mario character to pop up in a tweet from time to time.

I'll continue to keep an eye on this, but neither Geno nor Skull Kid have been officially confirmed, so I'm not going to assume anything just yet. For now, I'll lower my expectations and say this is all completely coincidental.

 

[Delzethin]

When do you guys predict they will reveal the Pokémon newcomer. My hunch is honestly on September.

I don't know, to be honest. Right now, part of me thinks we won't be next, that either the likely September Direct will reveal someone lower key but still highly requested like Bandana Dee or that these Skull Kid rumors will amount to something.

 

[Cosmic77]

Found this guy on YouTube who gave a pretty thorough analysis on the potential Pokemon reps. Maybe I like it because I'm biased towards Lycanroc, but it's nice to see someone acknowledge other factors like the timing of Ultimate's development and the anime instead of just saying, "Decidueye is probably the most likely".

 

[TCT~Phantom]

Imo I could see us getting two pokemon newcomers, one as advertisement for gen 7 and one for a huge fan favorite. It could happen.

As for lycanroc I still think it’s likely. Verge did not seem as hard on lycanroc as Decidueye, probably to give himself some wiggle room. I still think lycanroc is our gen 7 Rep.

 

[RandomAce]

Imo I could see us getting two pokemon newcomers, one as advertisement for gen 7 and one for a huge fan favorite. It could happen.

As for lycanroc I still think it’s likely. Verge did not seem as hard on lycanroc as Decidueye, probably to give himself some wiggle room. I still think lycanroc is our gen 7 Rep.

Sceptile and Lycanroc?

That would be my dream.

 

[Delzethin]

Imo I could see us getting two pokemon newcomers, one as advertisement for gen 7 and one for a huge fan favorite. It could happen.

The odds of two new 'mons in the base roster are dwindling, with how far we've gone without one being revealed and all the talk of their being fewer newcomers than usual, but it is still possible. After all, who thought we'd get two Fire Emblem characters during Smash 4 DLC?

Though the way they're handling echo fighters does mean one of the two could get in that way. Something like Blaziken as a Falcon echo, or the like.

As for lycanroc I still think it’s likely. Verge did not seem as hard on lycanroc as Decidueye, probably to give himself some wiggle room. I still think lycanroc is our gen 7 Rep.

That's the thing, these leaks are rarely, if ever, as clear-cut as people assume them to be. There're often multiple sources behind this stuff, and we've seen many leaks in the past have a mix of correct and incorrect information.

So from what Vergeben has said, out of the who-knows-how-many sources he has:

- Several, including sources who usually have no Smash information, say Decidueye isn't in but nothing more.
- Two(?) say there's a Gen 7 newcomer who isn't Decidueye, Mimikyu, or Lycanroc.
- One of those two (or is it just the one?) says it's Incineroar, but not even Vergeben himself is sure whether to believe it.

So what circumstances could lead to information like that? What could each of these sources have heard to make these claims, and which sources' intel could have been incorrect (like the Shovel Knight talk during Smash 4 DLC), outdated (like parts of the Gematsu leak), or outright fraudulent?

What complicates matters is that we can't just say "Well, Vergeben has a very mixed track record and tends to vet his sources poorly", because based on other talk in places like GameXplain and elsewhere, he is not the only one to have heard this intel. He went full Leeroy Jenkins and mentioned it first, but apparently it's not just him who's heard of it. For us to still have a chance, we need to debunk the claims of the sources themselves...or at least call them into question.

Which'll be easier said than done since we'll have a lot of people pointing and laughing at us every step of the way, what with how so many people are already assuming everything he's said now must be 100% correct now that Simon is in and Mimikyu is a summon.

This is reopening some old wounds from four years ago...

 

[PeridotGX]

Imo I could see us getting two pokemon newcomers, one as advertisement for gen 7 and one for a huge fan favorite. It could happen.

As for lycanroc I still think it’s likely. Verge did not seem as hard on lycanroc as Decidueye, probably to give himself some wiggle room. I still think lycanroc is our gen 7 Rep.

Yeah, that's what I've been thinking of. Lycanroc and Blaziken (As a Falcon Echo).

Unrelated, but people are really sleeping on Blaziken. He's a very popular Pokémon already, and ORAS had just released when the Ballot happened so he was on people's minds even more. Plus he fits over Falcon like a glove.

 

[Cosmic77]

The odds of two new 'mons in the base roster are dwindling, with how far we've gone without one being revealed and all the talk of their being fewer newcomers than usual, but it is still possible. After all, who thought we'd get two Fire Emblem characters during Smash 4 DLC?

Though the way they're handling echo fighters does mean one of the two could get in that way. Something like Blaziken as a Falcon echo, or the like.


That's the thing, these leaks are rarely, if ever, as clear-cut as people assume them to be. There're often multiple sources behind this stuff, and we've seen many leaks in the past have a mix of correct and incorrect information.

So from what Vergeben has said, out of the who-knows-how-many sources he has:

- Several, including sources who usually have no Smash information, say Decidueye isn't in but nothing more.
- Two(?) say there's a Gen 7 newcomer who isn't Decidueye, Mimikyu, or Lycanroc.
- One of those two (or is it just the one?) says it's Incineroar, but not even Vergeben himself is sure whether to believe it.

So what circumstances could lead to information like that? What could each of these sources have heard to make these claims, and which sources' intel could have been incorrect (like the Shovel Knight talk during Smash 4 DLC), outdated (like parts of the Gematsu leak), or outright fraudulent?

What complicates matters is that we can't just say "Well, Vergeben has a very mixed track record and tends to vet his sources poorly", because based on other talk in places like GameXplain and elsewhere, he is not the only one to have heard this intel. He went full Leeroy Jenkins and mentioned it first, but apparently it's not just him who's heard of it. For us to still have a chance, we need to debunk the claims of the sources themselves...or at least call them into question.

Which'll be easier said than done since we'll have a lot of people pointing and laughing at us every step of the way, what with how so many people are already assuming everything he's said now must be 100% correct now that Simon is in and Mimikyu is a summon.

This is reopening some old wounds from four years ago...

Gamexplain said something on a Pokemon rep? I don't remember hearing about that. Do you remember what was said?


Anyway, on the topic of Verge and his sources, I still don't understand how multiple sources can disconfirm Decidueye but only one can confirm Incineroar. That's not how things work. Unless Decidueye is a Pokeball Pokemon or all of these sources know who the newcomer is and are keeping it secret from Verge, there's not really any explanation for how they could disconfirm a character while not knowing the newcomer.

 

[RandomAce]

The odds of two new 'mons in the base roster are dwindling, with how far we've gone without one being revealed and all the talk of their being fewer newcomers than usual, but it is still possible. After all, who thought we'd get two Fire Emblem characters during Smash 4 DLC?

Though the way they're handling echo fighters does mean one of the two could get in that way. Something like Blaziken as a Falcon echo, or the like.


That's the thing, these leaks are rarely, if ever, as clear-cut as people assume them to be. There're often multiple sources behind this stuff, and we've seen many leaks in the past have a mix of correct and incorrect information.

So from what Vergeben has said, out of the who-knows-how-many sources he has:

- Several, including sources who usually have no Smash information, say Decidueye isn't in but nothing more.
- Two(?) say there's a Gen 7 newcomer who isn't Decidueye, Mimikyu, or Lycanroc.
- One of those two (or is it just the one?) says it's Incineroar, but not even Vergeben himself is sure whether to believe it.

So what circumstances could lead to information like that? What could each of these sources have heard to make these claims, and which sources' intel could have been incorrect (like the Shovel Knight talk during Smash 4 DLC), outdated (like parts of the Gematsu leak), or outright fraudulent?

What complicates matters is that we can't just say "Well, Vergeben has a very mixed track record and tends to vet his sources poorly", because based on other talk in places like GameXplain and elsewhere, he is not the only one to have heard this intel. He went full Leeroy Jenkins and mentioned it first, but apparently it's not just him who's heard of it. For us to still have a chance, we need to debunk the claims of the sources themselves...or at least call them into question.

Which'll be easier said than done since we'll have a lot of people pointing and laughing at us every step of the way, what with how so many people are already assuming everything he's said now must be 100% correct now that Simon is in and Mimikyu is a summon.

This is reopening some old wounds from four years ago...

What do you mean by reopening wounds from four years ago?

Right now, it seems we have it stacked against us, but is there something common from where these leaks come from? We don’t really have enough information to go off of since it seems in terms of the Pokémon newcomer no one is really sure.

Perhaps maybe all of these sources had information but from an earlier build or plan. The first plan was made in 2015 but it wasn’t finalized until sometime in early 2016 (since it was the first proposal after all) where it’s possible Sakurai may have made changes in regarding the newcomers, and it may be possible he originally chose Incineroar or whoever it was and ended up changing his decision since he found someone to have more to offer (I.e Lycanroc).

Now that I think about it... was it the Chrom situation you were referring to? When they originally had him planned and made a moveset for him only to change it to Robin since he provided something more unique I feel this may be the same situation in our hands.

 

[Deleted member]

Dusk Lycanroc, chances are still good, it will hopefully get in.

 

[Delzethin]

What do you mean by reopening wounds from four years ago?

How much have you heard about the Gematsu leaks? Essentially, a series of leaks hung over the community from the spring of 2014 into the summer after it nailed almost every newcomer that had so far been revealed (only missed Rosalina and gave the vague "Pokémon from X & Y" in place of Greninja) and hadn't been wrong about any of its predictions.

After that year's E3 revealed the Miis, Palutena, and Pac-Man, three more characters mentioned in the leaks, all hell broke loose. The three final characters mentioned in the leaks--Shulk, the Chorus Kids from Rhythm Heaven, and Chrom--were treated as inevitable by most of the community. Many even assumed that was all we'd get, despite us already having an example of a newcomer the leaks had missed. Worse yet, it'd invited bandwagoners to jump on board the leak, declare it absolute, unquestionable truth with zealous fury, and harass anyone who dared think otherwise.

All acting in bad faith, out of a desire to be right and to lord it over everyone else. They needed to feel superior, better, and grind their heels into the faces of those who dared not submit to them.

For myself and the other Robin supporters on the boards and elsewhere...things got ugly. We had people routinely coming into the Robin thread telling us to "give up" and mock us for being "idiots" or "denying the truth". Thing is, we'd hadn't been denying anything nor blindly hoping for a miracle to save us. We'd spent the time since E3 scrutinizing the leaks and how they fit into the big picture, and had come to the conclusion that while they were mostly accurate, they weren't airtight and could have missed more details that we didn't yet know about.

Furthermore, Chrom himself felt like...such an uncharacteristic choice for Sakurai. He was likable and pretty well written in Awakening and all, but he didn't have much going on aside from the typical sword lord stuff that we'd already seen on other characters, not without making drastic reaches into alternate classes in ways Sakurai and the Smash devs did not do with movesets. There'd always been such a focus on uniqueness and making sure each newcomer could stand out, and while most of the community had dismissed that offhand, saying "Sakurai will find a way to make him work", we were still skeptical. Especially with the sheer amount of potential Robin had to offer! And having essentially equal billing to Chrom in Awakening--something that got overlooked constantly by people who hadn't played it--meant importance wasn't a concern either!

And yet, we still got mocked, still got treated like the fandom's village idiots for not going along with the bandwagon like the cool kids.

And then...one fateful day that July, we were vindicated. The scales had been tipped, the Gematsu leaks weren't absolute truth after all, and our character had been the one to prove it. Not only that, but it turned out that both Chrom and Robin had been considered early in Smash 4's development...and Chrom had been shelved due to feeling too much like a retread of Marth and Ike, while Robin got the all clear for how much potential he had and how unique of a newcomer he could be. In other words, the exact points we had argued for and been laughed at for suggesting.

And now, here I am, spearheading a situation that has now become the same as that month after E3 four years ago. Just from reading this, you've probably noticed how eerily similar it all is. But can I really count on lightning striking twice?

It's a difficult question...and one with no answer for now.

 

[RandomAce]

How much have you heard about the Gematsu leaks? Essentially, a series of leaks hung over the community from the spring of 2014 into the summer after it nailed almost every newcomer that had so far been revealed (only missed Rosalina and gave the vague "Pokémon from X & Y" in place of Greninja) and hadn't been wrong about any of its predictions.

After that year's E3 revealed the Miis, Palutena, and Pac-Man, three more characters mentioned in the leaks, all hell broke loose. The three final characters mentioned in the leaks--Shulk, the Chorus Kids from Rhythm Heaven, and Chrom--were treated as inevitable by most of the community. Many even assumed that was all we'd get, despite us already having an example of a newcomer the leaks had missed. Worse yet, it'd invited bandwagoners to jump on board the leak, declare it absolute, unquestionable truth with zealous fury, and harass anyone who dared think otherwise.

All acting in bad faith, out of a desire to be right and to lord it over everyone else. They needed to feel superior, better, and grind their heels into the faces of those who dared not submit to them.

For myself and the other Robin supporters on the boards and elsewhere...things got ugly. We had people routinely coming into the Robin thread telling us to "give up" and mock us for being "idiots" or "denying the truth". Thing is, we'd hadn't been denying anything nor blindly hoping for a miracle to save us. We'd spent the time since E3 scrutinizing the leaks and how they fit into the big picture, and had come to the conclusion that while they were mostly accurate, they weren't airtight and could have missed more details that we didn't yet know about.

Furthermore, Chrom himself felt like...such an uncharacteristic choice for Sakurai. He was likable and pretty well written in Awakening and all, but he didn't have much going on aside from the typical sword lord stuff that we'd already seen on other characters, not without making drastic reaches into alternate classes in ways Sakurai and the Smash devs did not do with movesets. There'd always been such a focus on uniqueness and making sure each newcomer could stand out, and while most of the community had dismissed that offhand, saying "Sakurai will find a way to make him work", we were still skeptical. Especially with the sheer amount of potential Robin had to offer! And having essentially equal billing to Chrom in Awakening--something that got overlooked constantly by people who hadn't played it--meant importance wasn't a concern either!

And yet, we still got mocked, still got treated like the fandom's village idiots for not going along with the bandwagon like the cool kids.

And then...one fateful day that July, we were vindicated. The scales had been tipped, the Gematsu leaks weren't absolute truth after all, and our character had been the one to prove it. Not only that, but it turned out that both Chrom and Robin had been considered early in Smash 4's development...and Chrom had been shelved due to feeling too much like a retread of Marth and Ike, while Robin got the all clear for how much potential he had and how unique of a newcomer he could be. In other words, the exact points we had argued for and been laughed at for suggesting.

And now, here I am, spearheading a situation that has now become the same as that month after E3 four years ago. Just from reading this, you've probably noticed how eerily similar it all is. But can I really count on lightning striking twice?

It's a difficult question...and one with no answer for now.

Well is Lycanroc really mocked as a newcomer though? They have began rising in popularity as possible and people have actually shown distaste towards Incineroar due to his potentially samey moveset.

But people have been saying that Incineroar is most likely in right now and there have been people that have shown little interest to them so I see you’re getting at.

Hopefully the tides can turn this time.

 

[Questionmark222]

Furthermore, Chrom himself felt like...such an uncharacteristic choice for Sakurai.

This is exactly why I'm convinced that Incineroar won't get in.

 

[Cosmic77]

Well is Lycanroc really mocked as a newcomer though? They have began rising in popularity as possible and people have actually shown distaste towards Incineroar due to his potentially samey moveset.

But people have been saying that Incineroar is most likely in right now and there have been people that have shown little interest to them so I see you’re getting at.

Hopefully the tides can turn this time.

Even though I try to tell myself to hold off on my opinions until I actually see the character in Smash, I can see why people would be upset. Incineroar has the potential to be unique, but would he be as unique as Lycanroc, Decidueye, or even Mimikyu? Probably not. We have plenty of bipedal fighting characters. We have plenty of characters who utilize fire attacks. We do not, however, have many characters who can manipulate grass and rocks.

I'll understand why Sakurai went with Incineroar, but I'd be very disappointed that he had to settle for something so easy and predictable. Incineroar is a safe pick due to his design and role as a starter, but he'll never come close to being one of those oddball choices who people love because he's so different from everyone else.

 

[SilentSentinel]

Even though I try to tell myself to hold off on my opinions until I actually see the character in Smash, I can see why people would be upset. Incineroar has the potential to be unique, but would he be as unique as Lycanroc, Decidueye, or even Mimikyu? Probably not. We have plenty of bipedal fighting characters. We have plenty of characters who utilize fire attacks. We do not, however, have many characters who can manipulate grass and rocks.

I'll understand why Sakurai went with Incineroar, but I'd be very disappointed that he had to settle for something so easy and predictable. Incineroar is a safe pick due to his design and role as a starter, but he'll never come close to being one of those oddball choices who people love because he's so different from everyone else.

I think you're underselling Incineroar's potential to be unique. If Incineroar were designed as a true grapple heavy wrestler, he'd be extremely unique among the cast. That's a fighting game archetype that is barely explored at all in the Smash roster as of now. Lycanroc has a lot of potential as well, but there's no need to downplay how interesting Incineroar could be.

 

[Cosmic77]

I think you're underselling Incineroar's potential to be unique. If Incineroar were designed as a true grapple heavy wrestler, he'd be extremely unique among the cast. That's a fighting game archetype that is barely explored at all in the Smash roster as of now. Lycanroc has a lot of potential as well, but there's no need to downplay how interesting Incineroar could be.

I'm not saying he wouldn't be unique, and I even mentioned in my post that he has a lot of potential.

I just that think it'd be much harder to make Incineroar unique than it would his competition. Lycanroc and Mimikyu have a design that basically requires some form of creative thinking, and Decidueye is open to grass and arrows - two things which are used sparsely in Smash. While Incineroar could bring a unique grappler wrestler moveset with him, I just don't see how it could stand out nearly as much as the other three, especially when you start comparing their potential aerial attacks.

 

[Delzethin]

I'm not saying he wouldn't be unique, and I even mentioned in my post that he has a lot of potential.

I just that think it'd be much harder to make Incineroar unique than it would his competition. Lycanroc and Mimikyu have a design that basically requires some form of creative thinking, and Decidueye is open to grass and arrows - two things which are used sparsely in Smash. While Incineroar could bring a unique grappler wrestler moveset with him, I just don't see how it could stand out nearly as much as the other three, especially when you start comparing their potential aerial attacks.

That's the thing. I've heard the talk of having a traditional full grappler, and while there's an appeal to that...how far can an archetype carry a concept if everything else about them has already been done by characters already present on the roster? We already have so many big bruiser characters (And just got another a week and a half ago!), more fire users built for up close physical combat than you can count on one hand, and there're even smatterings of wrestling techniques all over the roster already (again, including K. Rool's forward air and up throw).

It's a lot more of a retread than...Corrin, for example. Corrin got a lot of flak for being "another anime swordfighter", yet the core of Corrin's moveset and concept is being a shapeshifter who can turn into a dragon and transform individual body parts at a time. Despite wielding a sword, most of Corrin is built around a thematic idea that Smash had never explored before (seriously, like 2/3 of the moveset uses shapeshifting in some way). And that's why Incineroar sounds so uncharacteristic of Sakurai, because thematically, most of what he has to offer has already been done, especially compared to Decidueye (who is built around archery and plant powers, which have barely been explored) or Lycanroc (built around earthbending, potentially multiple forms, and being a feral quadruped in two of them, which haven't been explored at all).

Based on Sakurai's mindset for Smash, especially the stuff he's explained himself...would he really be willing to stick in a character who doesn't do many new things just for the sake of cramming in an archetype? Based on what we know of his thought process, wouldn't he rather wait for a different character who can do it in a way that is more thematically unique, rather than shoehorn someone in to fill a quota or "represent" an idea?

It feels too much like the fan assumption that newcomers must be chosen for their identity or to "rep" a game or concept, with their moveset figured out afterward as an afterthought. And despite how many people assume that must be how it happens, we know for a fact that it is not, because Sakurai has been very upfront about how important uniqueness is and how integral character concepts are to the decision process. Unless Sakurai and his team found something mind-blowing that we aren't seeing...then I dunno, something seems off. At least to where we should stay skeptical, especially if the leakers themselves aren't sure whether to believe it.

 

[BluePikmin11]

My friend GekkougaLarry on Discord shared some interesting info about the S/M anime. Seems like the Pokemon anime is building up to an arc focused on Lycanroc. It's apparently about a chosen Lycanroc or something:

From what my friend told me, the arc's plot is about 'the ancient Alolans that faced Solgaleo, Lunala, and Ultra Necrozma with the leader having a Lycanroc ( albeit Midday form)'.

The growing focus on Lycanroc is certainly intriguing!

 

[Tuoko]

I was going to register to comment only to find out I made an account two years ago and did nothing with it until now.

Anyway, add me onto the support list. Lycanroc is/are my favorite Pokemon in Gen 7, and is tied for being my favorite Pokemon, so I'd definitely love to see him get into Smash. Having him get an amiibo because of it would be great too.

As for which form, I see it being Dusk, with Midday/Midnight being referenced as an alt, though I wouldn't mind if either Midday or Midnight become the fighter instead. Better than nothing at all imo.

 

[Desdar300]

Wild Desdar appears!
Also known as Unsho on Discord, I'm supporting Lycanroc too!

 

[RandomAce]

My friend GekkougaLarry on Discord shared some interesting info about the S/M anime. Seems like the Pokemon anime is building up to an arc focused on Lycanroc. It's apparently about a chosen Lycanroc or something:

View attachment 158763

From what my friend told me, the arc's plot is about 'the ancient Alolans that faced Solgaleo, Lunala, and Ultra Necrozma with the leader having a Lycanroc ( albeit Midday form)'.

The growing focus on Lycanroc is certainly intriguing!

Was there any other information he told you about? It’s certainly interesting since the upcoming episode is involving Necromza.

About the chosen Lycanroc? Could that be the other form that Delzethin was talking about with the other two Lycanroc files?

 

[SilentSentinel]

That's the thing. I've heard the talk of having a traditional full grappler, and while there's an appeal to that...how far can an archetype carry a concept if everything else about them has already been done by characters already present on the roster? We already have so many big bruiser characters (And just got another a week and a half ago!), more fire users built for up close physical combat than you can count on one hand, and there're even smatterings of wrestling techniques all over the roster already (again, including K. Rool's forward air and up throw).

It's a lot more of a retread than...Corrin, for example. Corrin got a lot of flak for being "another anime swordfighter", yet the core of Corrin's moveset and concept is being a shapeshifter who can turn into a dragon and transform individual body parts at a time. Despite wielding a sword, most of Corrin is built around a thematic idea that Smash had never explored before (seriously, like 2/3 of the moveset uses shapeshifting in some way). And that's why Incineroar sounds so uncharacteristic of Sakurai, because thematically, most of what he has to offer has already been done, especially compared to Decidueye (who is built around archery and plant powers, which have barely been explored) or Lycanroc (built around earthbending, potentially multiple forms, and being a feral quadruped in two of them, which haven't been explored at all).

Based on Sakurai's mindset for Smash, especially the stuff he's explained himself...would he really be willing to stick in a character who doesn't do many new things just for the sake of cramming in an archetype? Based on what we know of his thought process, wouldn't he rather wait for a different character who can do it in a way that is more thematically unique, rather than shoehorn someone in to fill a quota or "represent" an idea?

Wouldn't Incineroar be able to be described in the same way that you just described Corrin though (despite being a fire pokemon is built around the thematic idea of a grapple based kit)? Besides, we know that Corrin wasn't included because of the shapeshifting angle, he was essentially there for advertising, as first stated by Sakurai during his Nintendo dream interview when discussing the DLC characters. Then he starts talking about how the character was built around their unique characteristic of having very high reach and doesn't touch on the shapeshifting stuff much until later.

- "When Corrin enters the fray, you have to pay attention to the distance between the two of you. On the other hand, that’s less of a concern with returning characters like Roy and Lucas with preexisting strategies. In that sense, I feel Corrin is a really important addition."

I think that Sakurai thinks about specific fighting game archtypes more than people think as a fighting game enthusiast himself (he even compared Corrin to Dhalsim in that same interview and discussed Mewtwo being built as a glass cannon in another part). To say that adding a character with deep roots in classic fighting game archetypes is un-Sakurai feels like a stretch. It's not necessarily about "repping" a concept as Delzethin so eloquently put it and not why Sakurai would end up choosing a pokemon like Incineroar over Lycanroc in this hypothetical scenario, but if Sakurai saw Incineroar's admittedly quite good concept art and thought that the Pokemon would be a good fighter in smash, that would be the way he could build it. Many smash characters have ended up fitting archetypes before. The reason I'd find Incineroar a bit boring is more because it would be another starter pokemon and I'd like to see other ones like Lycanroc or even Buzzwole over any of the Alola starters, which are just okay to me in comparison to Kalos's.

If Lycanroc gets in I personally hope that it's just the Dusk form. The stance change ideas feel a little too convoluted and are less true to canon, and Dusk could have a real clean kit while still being interesting. Dusk form can stand on it's own I feel, while the other forms are referenced in alt palattes (although pokemon palattes are real hit or miss in smash sometimes).

 

[RandomAce]

Wouldn't Incineroar be able to be described in the same way that you just described Corrin though (despite being a fire pokemon is built around the thematic idea of a grapple based kit)? Besides, we know that Corrin wasn't included because of the shapeshifting angle, he was essentially there for advertising, as first stated by Sakurai during his Nintendo dream interview when discussing the DLC characters. Then he starts talking about how the character was built around their unique characteristic of having very high reach and doesn't touch on the shapeshifting stuff much until later.

- "When Corrin enters the fray, you have to pay attention to the distance between the two of you. On the other hand, that’s less of a concern with returning characters like Roy and Lucas with preexisting strategies. In that sense, I feel Corrin is a really important addition."

I think that Sakurai thinks about specific fighting game archtypes more than people think as a fighting game enthusiast himself (he even compared Corrin to Dhalsim in that same interview and discussed Mewtwo being built as a glass cannon in another part). To say that adding a character with deep roots in classic fighting game archetypes is un-Sakurai feels like a stretch. It's not necessarily about "repping" a concept as Delzethin so eloquently put it and not why Sakurai would end up choosing a pokemon like Incineroar over Lycanroc in this hypothetical scenario, but if Sakurai saw Incineroar's admittedly quite good concept art and thought that the Pokemon would be a good fighter in smash, that would be the way he could build it. Many smash characters have ended up fitting archetypes before. The reason I'd find Incineroar a bit boring is more because it would be another starter pokemon and I'd like to see other ones like Lycanroc or even Buzzwole over any of the Alola starters, which are just okay to me in comparison to Kalos's.

If Lycanroc gets in I personally hope that it's just the Dusk form. The stance change ideas feel a little too convoluted and are less true to canon, and Dusk could have a real clean kit while still being interesting. Dusk form can stand on it's own I feel, while the other forms are referenced in alt palattes (although pokemon palattes are real hit or miss in smash sometimes).

There’s something wrong with the part I bolded that messed up your statement a bit.

While yes, Sakurai wanted to include a character specifically to promote a new game, he initially didn’t had his eyes on Corrin (some speculate it to be Elma due to how big X was). He stated that he picked Corrin because Intelligent Systems CONVINCED him about how Corrin can use shape shifting first and foremost to easily stand out from the roster, and that is what got him included in the first place.

However, unlike Fire Emblem and Corrin, there are tons of Gen 7 Pokémon to choose from. Compared to other fighters and the potential Pokémon to pick from, Incineroar doesn’t really stand out. Incineroar reuses the Fire motif A TON of fighters in Smash already use. Although he can be made unique with his grappling abilities it will be harder to do so when some characters already exhibit grappling heavy playstyles.

Compare that to Decidueye who can have a full fledged archery moveset with grass attacks that are still barely reminiscent in the game along with super natural ghost attacks. Lycanroc who can be the first fully fledged rock user with a potential unique qudrapedal build, boost mechanic, and even use multiple forms for a stance fighter if Sakurai wanted to (although if he wanted to stay true to lore he can just have them be two seperate Lycanrocs). Heck even Sceptile with fully fledged grass attacks, speedy rush down moveset, arm blades, and even trap movesets can be extremely unique among the roster and can bring more to the table much more easily than Incineroar.

If Incineroar does get in, Sakurai may have found something in Incineroar to be unique, but so far I’m not convinced nor will I agree with since there are many more Pokémon to choose from that can bring something more interesting to the table and so far Incineroar hasn’t done anything to make him stand out yet among the other potential candidates.

It’s always the moveset and uniqueness that is the strict rule Sakurai looks for first and foremost, and that’s why I find Lycanroc likely (along with Sceptile if he wanted to include a fan favorite).