Dave's Stupid Rule -Current MBR Discussion

[x After Dawn x]

someone PLEASE tell me why you guys decided that the winner of round 1 should NOT be able to repick that NEUTRAL stage that was decided on by BOTH players as the most fair stage for the first round to be played on should a set go to r3???

it makes no sense to apply DSR there and i heard that the MBR decided that this rule should be tournament standard

so if anyone has a good argument for why this should be then i'd love to hear it

otherwise i argue that the winner should 100% absolutely be allowed to repick the stage that was picked by striking for a multitude of reasons, primarily because DSR is only a rule because it stops people from repicking a stage that was unfair or biased towards the winner because they got lucky in the random

What stops a stage from being unfair or biased even with stage striking?

Stage striking is arguably a smarter and more effective means of picking a neutral for the first round, but it's not perfect and some first round matchups will still be biased towards a character.

Let's take Falco vs Marth for example. Falco bans YS, Marth bans DL and then probably Final D (depending on the Marth, of course- some Marths like M2K will proceed to **** Falco on FD and despite the lack of platforms that gives Falco the advantage for lasering, Falco won't be able to escape Marth's combos, which only reinforces my argument; read dr peepee's Falco guide, it mentions something like this. but let's just say Marth bans it). Falco's then left with Battlefield and FoD, none of which are good against Marth. And if the Marth's like M2K where he knows how to cg and combo properly, he may not even ban FD because he may prefer it, and then Falco might want to ban FD over FoD / BF (whichever one Marth doesn't ban).

There's probably better examples to use where the first stage isn't exactly completely fair, but you get my point. Just because each player has found "the most fair" stage to play on at first, doesn't necessarily make it completely fair and should void DSR.

This.
I never liked stage striking.
You either play against a character where you want a big stage, or one you want a small stage, so either way, they strike the opposites, and you end up playing on BF since it's usually the most medium stage.

Yeah this happens sometimes, although it personally hasn't happened with me all too much. And in some cases (read my Falco vs Marth thing above), it doesn't end up being completely fair.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

How does DSR1 sound for Bo5? You can only pick a stage you've won on 1 other time in the set. Or the modified DSR where it says "you cannot counter pick the last stage you won on"?

I was playing some Bo5 sets last night and its really difficult to find a decent stage late in the set.

 

[pockyD]

hypothetically, all stages are decent stages

if a stage isn't a decent stage, then we should discuss removing it from the list altogether

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

stop trolling pocky

you know what i meant

 

[Dark Hart]

Guys, if you won on the stage, you shouldn't be allowed to pick it again. Duh.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Well if you do the modified DSR (can't pick the last stage you won on) then you can't double pick any CP stages, only neutrals.

i think thats pretty fair.

 

[SuperRad]

Well if you do the modified DSR (can't pick the last stage you won on) then you can't double pick any CP stages, only neutrals.

i think thats pretty fair.

thats not true
lose first game
win on your counterpick
win on their counterpick
lose on their second counterpick

 

[pockyD]

stop trolling pocky

you know what i meant

nope, not at all

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

thats not true
lose first game
win on your counterpick
win on their counterpick
lose on their second counterpick

true, then you could pick the same first CP you had, which could be non-neutral.

Would "You can't CP the last stage you choose (and won)" work or would that be biased for the player who won the first game?

p1 win
p2 win CP
p2 win (on P1 CP)
p1 can't pick game 1 stage
p2 can pick any but game 2 stage

p1 win
p2 win CP
p1 win CP
p2 win diff CP
p1 can pick any stage but game 3 stage

p1 win
p1 win on p2 CP
p2 win CP
p1 can't pick game 1 stage
p2 can't pick game 3 stage

i think its pretty fair



edit:: actually by the wording p1 could CP to the first (struck) stage, but i think the struck stage should count as a choosen stage. that would probably be the most fair

 

[Scamp]

I don't believe the original purpose of DSR was to counter the imbalance from the random stage. I was always under the impression DSR was intended to prevent people from CPing to the same stage in order to obtain multiple wins from the same stage imbalance.

This is basically correct. What used to happen a lot was the first stage would be random and then in the third game the player would CP whatever the first stage was simply because they won on that stage.

So what if you were only bad on one stage and that stage happened to be the one randomly selected? Well you just lost the set. Personally, I was more offended by the lack of strategy than any stage imbalance issues.

Also, the line of thinking was not so much for obtaining multiple wins as obtaining multiple losses from something that's out of your control. It was much more extreme when tournies had all the stages on, but the logic still applies even if there are just two stages. (Though in that case it'd have to be adjusted.)


The intent was to protect the loser but also to keep it as simple as possible. I thought "You can't CP the stage you last won on unless your opponent agrees" was simple, but over practice it was confusing for a lot of people. I think it's a lot better now, previously I've had to explain the double-elimination system countless times.


Anyway the reality here in my opinion is that no one really cares about this argument. Even the people in favor of removing DSR say it doesn't really matter. Unless multiple top players have a problem with this (which won't happen) then it really doesn't need to be argued any further.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Dsr with last stage won on is perfect in bo3. You have two win on two diff stages. Whatever the mumbo jumbo its fair. And you get a stage you agreed to play on first stage.

bo5 is good as well. It only sucks when they try to use brinstar or something twice. If they tried to use FD twice that should be ok. the second list of stages should be limited so you cant use any of them twice no matter what.

 

[jugfingers]

wait....


whos dave?


is it DA Dave?


or some other less known Dave?

 

[pockyD]

it's the guy two posts above you

 

[PokemonMasterIRL]

I thought Scamp died in a car accident?

 

[KAOSTAR]

It would have had to have been in the last 6 days if this is true.

The only recently deceased I know of is NES noob.

R.I.P.

 

[unknown522]

Sorry for late replys:

how did you end up on battlefield each time.

I would never get that. Its my first strike-also who is your main

I main fox. It pretty much goes like this:

- if I choose first, I strike FD
- they choose and strike Yoshi's or DL
- I strike FoD
- They Strike the remaining stage that's not battlefield.

- If they choose first, They strike yoshi's
- I strike FD
- they strike DL
- I strike FoD

Whether I strike FD or DL first is interchangeable. Depends if I can get CG'd there, or if they play falco. either way, If I can help it, I get to pick battlefield or FoD. If not, they will pick battlefield no matter what.

This really depends on what characters are matched up, I think. Also, since I play sheik, a lot of space animals strike battlefield. I'd usually strike it against marth. Last tournament, I played on Yoshi's first 3 times, dreamland twice and battlefield once, if I'm remembering correctly.

I'd rather play against sheik on BF, than DL, FD, or YS. Just personal preference I guess.

Also, I don't really understand what the problem is. If Battlefield is the "most neutral" stage for that match up, then there it should be played first. I understand wanting variety, but in a tournament setting we shouldn't sacrifice fairness strictly for variety. (Also, you seem to not 'mind [Battlefield] too much', so I'm not sure why it even matters if you play it every set.)

I don't like the level. It's my safest bet from getting CG'd by a lot of characters, without the randomness of yoshi's.

This makes no sense to me.
Under the Pound 4 rules (for singles) there are 9 legal stages. You make it sound like if you win game 1 and lose game 2, you are forced to pick a stage you hate. That sounds like a personal problem, as at that point you can pick one of 7 stages (the stage from game 1 is banned and your opponent bans one).

So, assume I win game 1. They ban stadium, I ban FD. They win on some CP stage. I now have to pick DL, a CP that I don't like, FoD, or YS. And I guess FD, but it's banned for a reason.

 

[KAOSTAR]

haha oh lol.

Yea, I happen to like dream land. So I never strike that and FOD Battlefield and FD depend on the matchup. DReamland I feel really comfortable with all of my characters because I play better when I dont feel crowded. I have space to move around etc.

I would prob go battlefield against a spacy instead of FoD.

 

[`DNS`]

haha oh lol.

Yea, I happen to like dream land. So I never strike that and FOD Battlefield and FD depend on the matchup. DReamland I feel really comfortable with all of my characters because I play better when I dont feel crowded. I have space to move around etc.

I would prob go battlefield against a spacy instead of FoD.

Battlefield is one of my favorite levels as falco.. platform combos and illusion cancels all day

 

[pockyD]

This makes no sense to me.
Under the Pound 4 rules (for singles) there are 9 legal stages. You make it sound like if you win game 1 and lose game 2, you are forced to pick a stage you hate. That sounds like a personal problem, as at that point you can pick one of 7 stages (the stage from game 1 is banned and your opponent bans one).

So, assume I win game 1. They ban stadium, I ban FD. They win on some CP stage. I now have to pick DL, a CP that I don't like, FoD, or YS. And I guess FD, but it's banned for a reason.

You make it sound like if you win game 1 and lose game 2, you are forced to pick a stage you hate. That sounds like a personal problem, as at that point you can pick one of 7 stages (the stage from game 1 is banned and your opponent bans one).

definitely a you problem

 

[KAOSTAR]

Battlefield is one of my favorite levels as falco.. platform combos and illusion cancels all day

Yea thats kinda the part where its not always matchups. I love taking foxes to dreamland with marth or m2.

Its just where you feel comfortable really. You cant always kno.

 

[unknown522]

definitely a you problem

lol, I'm sure it is

 

[Roneblaster]

I like pockyD's idea of having all 9 stages be in the striking. If we're going to let players dictate what stage Game 1 is on, why can't they include CP's? I'd be interested to hear what people smarter than I have to say say about DSR's effect then.

I have to say I'm with Scar. People are pointing Scar's assumptions, but it seems that most everyone who is Pro-DSR is assuming the Game 3 result will be the same as Game 1. What if Game 1 was close, or decided by an SD by the loser. Now the loser (who could actually have the advantage, but we cant be sure because of an SD or some other random factor) can choose whether or not that stage is played again. Not to mention the fact that no 2 melee matches are ever the same.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

- if I choose first, I strike FD
- they choose and strike Yoshi's or DL
- I strike FoD
- They Strike the remaining stage that's not battlefield.

- If they choose first, They strike yoshi's
- I strike FD
- they strike DL
- I strike FoD

I thought you said you got BF because one person stikes big stages and the other strikes small stages. By that logic, why would they strike the smallest and the biggest stages?

Against fox, i would strike DL first and then every other stage is favorable for me, and we would probably end up on FD or Yoshi's.

BF comes up about as often as other stages, its really match-up dependent.

 

[unknown522]

I thought you said you got BF because one person stikes big stages and the other strikes small stages. By that logic, why would they strike the smallest and the biggest stages?

Against fox, i would strike DL first and then every other stage is favorable for me, and we would probably end up on FD or Yoshi's.

BF comes up about as often as other stages, its really match-up dependent.

that's a good question. Stage preference I guess?

 

[TheManaLord]

There shouldn't even be counterpicks.

There should be a stagelist.

Stagelist
FD
Battlefield
Yoshi's Story
FoD
DL64
Pokemon Stadium
KJ64

This game has always been played with the most ridiculous amounts of counterpicking ability. Ridiculous stages, character changes possible literally every match from both players... causes huge inconsistency in what we're actually trying to measure.

0. Character and port selection, can follow traditional methods (double blinds, RPS, whatever)
1. First stage is selected by stage strike or RANDOM if agreed by players
2. Both players get a stage ban after the first match
3. Then the loser can counterpick from the stagelist
4. Winner changes character
5. Loser CANNOT change character if they pick the stage they last won on

continue.

This removes DSR and a lot of other filler information from the ruleset... leaving it clean, concise, and easy to understand. It removes DSR yet keeps an idea from it.

Seems fair enough, but honestly I feel there should never be any form of counterpicking or character changes within sets. But that's just me liking 2d fighters and all the levels being the same.

 

[Scar]

you guys are n00bs

it's not that i'm forced to pick a stage i hate

it's a stage that i'm forced to pick WHEN THERE EXISTS a stage that both players prefer more

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

at any time, two players can agree to any stage. If they really prefer it more, they would agree to go back to it.

 

[KAOSTAR]

I think there should be a cp list. Theres no way ppl are gonna want to go to brinstar or even kong 64 on a regular basis. Unless you are choosing it for a character advantage/disadvantage, most ppl would agree that some of the uneven terrain or obstacles take alot away from the set. Ppl just arent use to it and I the current stage list is pretty good.

@lso- I agree with sveet

 

[Spife]

I'm still reading (read all the MBR discussion, 10/10, would read again, etc etc) but I wanted to say that it seems like, if you make a mistake on stage striking with DSR, your punishment is that match, but without DSR your punishment may very well be the set.

I just think DSR should be in effect but maybe a step in the process of banning a stage and picking a stage for r3 could also be asking the player who lost in r1 if they want that stage banned...which sounds weird now that I think about it, it's basically asking them how many stages do they want to be potentially counter picked to...
Or I guess if you wanted to go back there you can ask them if they want to go back.

On the other hand there is the issue of wasting a ban if DSR isn't in play because you don't want to go back to the r1 stage.

I'm pretty sure all of this has been said, I'm just echoing.

 

[SOLAR]

If a stage has been won on, and a player that "agreed" on the stage regrets their decision, they should not have to pay for their mistake twice.

Furthermore, the player doesn't always agree on the stage that ends up being played, it's not usually their first or second choice.

The only time a player should be allowed to re-pick a stage in which they won on, is if the opponent doesn't mind. This is noted on the pound 4 rules thread.

 

[john!]

If a tourney uses stage striking, why bother having neutrals? Striking should include all 9 stages, and things would still be fair.

 

[Rian]

Quoting the first post of this thread.

otherwise i argue that the winner should 100% absolutely be allowed to repick the stage that was picked by striking for a multitude of reasons, primarily because DSR is only a rule because it stops people from repicking a stage that was unfair or biased towards the winner because they got lucky in the random

it made sense when we used random, now it doesn't

I agree with Scar here. The whole point of striking is to make the first stage as fair as possible, you both ban the stages you dislike the most or think you have the disadvantage on. If the first match shows you that you might have been wrong about this descision. I believe it is fair to let the victor abuse this major error in stage striking.

However it might be fairer (as a mid-way solution) that if you are able to win the second match you can switch up your stage striking descisions. Meaning you can remove a ban from a neutral you striked earlier and switch to the first played stage. This way you are be able to force a ban upon the first stage, but gives the victor of the first game a chance to try out a stage where his opponent felt he had the disadvantage before the set started. This of course means that if the loser of the first match decides not to switch, the first stage is free to choose.

The issue is kind of opinionized. And I'm maybe searching for a possible mid-way. It's what you feel is fair, and it's what you believe is a hard enough punishment for earlier stage strikes. A matter of what most agree on should be forced on? Of course I mean the MBR-members by this.

I don't know if this idea was posted before. I've read the whole thing through but can't recall if it was mentioned earlier. Kind off hard to step into an already 11 page long thread.

 

[KAOSTAR]

WTF are u talking about. Stage striking is on the first round. Its to determine the first stage and thats it.

you usually only ban after your first lost, but I believe some situations ppl ban before the first round.

Stage striking and banning are different things.

 

[Rian]

WTF are u talking about. Stage striking is on the first round. Its to determine the first stage and thats it.

you usually only ban after your first lost, but I believe some situations ppl ban before the first round.

Stage striking and banning are different things.

Wow, kind off feel ******** now :\.

This means you have 6 stages to choose from if they choose without DSR and 5 with DSR, right?

I can't seem to find the commenly used stage list.

- BF
- FD
- FoD
- DL64
- YS

- KJ64
- Corneria
- PF

 

[Pink Reaper]

its BF, FD, FoD, DL64 and YS for neutrals and PS, Brinstar and KJ 64 for CP

And rainbow cruise.

 

[x After Dawn x]

its BF, FD, FoD, DL64 and YS for neutrals and PS, Brinstar and KJ 64 for CP

and rainbow cruise too, don't forget it!

 

[KAOSTAR]

Wow, kind off feel ******** now :\.

This means you have 6 stages to choose from if they choose without DSR and 5 with DSR, right?

I can't seem to find the commenly used stage list.

- BF
- FD
- FoD
- DL64
- YS

- KJ64
- Corneria
- PF

Pretty much, the first round there are 5 neutrals to choose from. With DSR and a ban, if you lose the second round, you have 6/9 minimum(including CPs). You cant go back to the one you won on and each player gets a ban.

You shouldnt ban neutrals b4 striking, if its allowed. Just strike it and save your ban for another stage.

 

[Wschl]

i totally agree with scar, he sure got a point there.
However, mute city should be allowed to be counterpick as well.

 

[x After Dawn x]

Mute City is just shenanigans and deserves no place in the list along with Green Greens.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

???
May I ask why or rather what caused Mute City to not be legal in singles?

It's not like the cars or road kill you like in Port Town.

The only issue I see with the stage is the HUGE KO walls and HIGH KO ceiling on the first stop.