Dash Attack vs Up Smash vs Grab

[Villi]

I have to leave soon, but I thought I would open up this discussion. I believe all three of these moves have their place to be used situationally. Dash attack covers a lot of ground in a very short amount of time (7 frames). Up Smash has significantly less range, but has a long duration. Grab will beat shields when dash attack surely will not and upsmash won't unless the shield has taken a good amount of recent damage. Grab is also the slowest option of the three.

It might be a worthwhile discussion to understand when it's best to use each of these options and how connecting with each benefits Zelda.

I'll be back later with mine!

 

[sniperworm]

I'm guessing the context is using these to punish some sort of opening while running? Or are we just comparing these moves in general?

I might contribute later once I know more about how we're supposed to be comparing the moves and if I come up with something useful to say.

 

[rebd121]

What sniperworm said. I'd like to contribute, but can't without knowing exactly how.

 

[goodkid]

up-smash is only really good when your opponent is in the air, ive been punished numerous times 4 trying running up-smah on shield. dash-attack is good oos & similar to up-smash in which it really shines when your opponent is in the air. then we can wait & punish airdodge. grab is good on the ground & after a d-tilt. most zeldas do the boring standard d-tilt > dmash which can be shielded, we need to extend our d-tilt combos w/ a grab/ fitilt, whatever.us Dash attack is hard to punish if u space it right & land right behind their shield

 

[Villi]

Well, you guys tell me how you use the moves and/or theoretically should. The point is to find contexts in which one would be better than the others, the moves can be used interchangably or can be used together as effective mixups (grab shields, up smash sidesteps).

 

[Darkmusician]

As far as reading goes that's up to you. That has a lot to do with how well you know your opponent. Everyone has different tendencies.

If they like to side step then run up and smash. Actually even then you could just run up to them and wait for them to side step and then do w/e you want any way. Running grabs are good if you up smash at 0 percent and they DI away and you read that they will air dodge. Then you can just follow them and grab them again. Half the time if you down throw them they will either air dodge again which you can follow for another grab or they will not want to get grabbed and DI into you so you can charge f-smash or something.

As far as knowing when one is better than the others I think that's straight forward.
Up smash has best kill potential of the 3 so whenever you wanna go for a kill use it.
Grabs are for tempo control and keep the opponent off balance.
Dash attack is for pressure, stopping small approaches, beating start up lag and possible gimping opportunities if they're heavy, fall fast and near the edge. Or if you can intercept them in mid jump over the edge.

And I think grabs are the most underused by Zelda players in general. I have played almost 50 Zelda players (both main and not main) in dittos since Brawl came out and grabs are definitely lacking. I'm not saying that's horribly wrong, but it just becomes very predictable. That's my take based on what I've experienced. You can take it for what it's worth.

 

[Villi]

I had a chance to do some testing, and it seems like Zelda's dash grab outranges dash attack very slightly (her grab range is the same as DDD and Charizard's, and longer if you pivot grab). It comes out on frame 10 for dash grab and 11 for standing, IIRC. Upsmash comes out on 6, and dash attack on 7.

Upsmash oos is a good punisher against aerial approaches. A jump canceled up smash will come out faster than anything she can do that isn't a sidestep/roll or jump.

Dash attacks can be used to punish retreating aerials before they can touch the ground (Marth's fair), since it covers a wide horizontal area.

Shield grab can work defensively, but the starup can be problematic against auto-canceled aerials on characters who have quick ground options (Peach's fair to jab).

Offensively, grab and up smash mixups are the way to go.

Starting off by grabbing will let them know early on that they're not safe in their shields. Down throw can be followed up in a number of ways depending on DI, but aside from an aerial that'll likely be air dodged, a grab, up smash, or shield (if they try to attack) are the best ways to cover their options.

When they start sidestepping to avoid grabs, up smashes will cover you. It's a fast attack so it will cover you at close range if they decide to do something offensive that's slower than your attack, or if they jump.

personally, a lot of my dash attack use would be better off being grabs. Best uses for dash attak off the top of my head is punishing or trading with aerials when it needs to be done as quickly as possible. I feel it's especially useful against Marth since he DIs out of upsmash fairly easily if he's already air born and... the dash attack dash attack spike thing if someone forgets they should shield these things.

 

[Kataefi]

Are you sure it's frame 7? Doesn't the actual hitbox come out on frame 6 for dash attack?

 

[Villi]

I was getting 7 when I tested it.

 

[sniperworm]

I'm going to compare the three moves in the context where I would consider using any of the three of them. This is when your opponent is landing near (but not on) you.

Option A - Dash Attack
This is the safest bet in my opinion. It has a large horizontal range meaning that you can attack people landing at greater distances. It has good speed and a fast moving hitbox so you'll likely trade with or beat out opposing aerials. Plus it has a continuous, lingering hitbox which means that it's easy to hit air dodgers.

The drawback is that it has the lowest reward associated with it since it only kills at very high percents and deals the least amount of damage. It is also easily punished during the lag if they manage to block it. It should also be noted that there are very few viable follow ups after a dash attack (therefore you relinquish your advantageous position).

Option B - Running Usmash
This is a fairly safe bet. It has good speed and seems to beat out most aerials, so it's unlikely they can attack through it. It provides a multi-hit, lingering hitbox which makes it difficult to air dodge through it. It is also the option with the greatest kill power, so it can pick up kills at decent percents. It should also be noted that the Usmash does significant damage and can lead into more of the same at low percents.

Primary drawback is that it has the smallest effective horizontal range, meaning that you can only attempt this if they're landing fairly close to you (which is rare because most people know about Zelda's Usmash). Another drawback is because of the nature of this move, it is possible to air dodge through it and shield. Other drawbacks include that the opponent can escape via smash DI, it is easily punished during cooldown lag, and if it doesn't kill then you're decaying one of your easiest to land kill moves.

Option C - Running Grab
This is by far the riskiest move. However, it does cover good horizontal range and deals good damage (especially if you can get in a pummel). You can also control how your opponent is knocked back (by picking the appropriate throw) so that you can maintain your advantageous position over your opponent. It's also impossible to shield (if you screw up the timing) and harder to punish then the other two options.

The primary disadvantage is that it is the slowest option. This combined with the fact that it's not an attack (so you'll likely lose out if they attack you) makes it even less appealing. The lack of speed also makes it the most difficult to execute correctly and the easiest for your opponent to react to.

So really it depends on the situation for which is the best choice.

 

[MrEh]

Good stuff.

More good stuff.

You forgot about option D though.

Option D - Down Taunt
Screws up the pace of the match and frustrates opponents. Can be buffered OoS to come out on frame 1, and no opponent can predict it. Truly epic.


But in all seriousness, sometimes I approach with a shield. It might work well with Zelda, but what do I know?

 

[Kataefi]

To me it's all about conditioning the opponent into thinking what they can and cannot do.

This is something I'm really trying to work on very carefully. A lot of Zelda's moves can force opponents to hide in their shield. USmash applies a lot of shield pressure and lasts ridiculously long. Using this OoS and making them learn to shield it is when you start grabbing.

What does the opponent think now? They need to take a chance - do they spotdodge against her to avoid her grabs, or do they get punished by USmash? Do they shield against her and avoid the USmash, or do they get grabbed?

This is when a Zelda player can capitalise but only if they make the right options at the right time. It;s no good conditioning someone, and still using what you conditioned them with as a viable method of attack, because it won't work.

Dash attack is something I need to stop doing as much, but it is incredibly quick and useful IMO at stopping a lot of SH approaches, much like her jab, albeit faster and it moves her. I like jab > dash attack for this reason alone, it's a nice anti-aerial option.

 

[goodkid]

I was getting 7 when I tested it.

how do you test the frames? what mode should I use?

 

[Icy-Flood]

usually when people are blocking I go for a grab the first time then when they block again I go for an Up-Smash attack. You can really mind game people by doing the Up-Smash because when your running towards the person you should just quickly do it you should charge it up for a sec then do it because they will be thing block the attack you but if you carge it they will go for an attack then you release with the Up-Smash and besides when doing the Up-Smash with her its hard for people to actually figure out when the move stops hitting or going so why not charge for a sec while you dash to the opponent

 

[mikekleman]

well it all depends on your damage and your oponent's. if yours is low, and theirs is higher, i would recommend an up smash. it will weaken their shield and after they grab you you can retaliate with a sweet spotted kick to punish them more. in my experiences. it works. i also like to grab into an up throw. if their damage is low enough, you can up smash juggle them to a reasonable percentage

 

[Darkmusician]

well it all depends on your damage and your oponent's. if yours is low, and theirs is higher, i would recommend an up smash. it will weaken their shield and after they grab you you can retaliate with a sweet spotted kick to punish them more. in my experiences. it works. i also like to grab into an up throw. if their damage is low enough, you can up smash juggle them to a reasonable percentage

1. Kicking the opponent after they throw you is very rare and I doubt it will work on above average players. Especially those that know it's reach and timing. Zelda will just kick air and hang there open to a follow up. If you up smash and hit shield and get thrown I suggest DIing away to reset yourself. This varies from character to character. If you want to weaken their shield it's better to pressure with spaced attacks because after they grab you and throw you their shield will have started recovering anyway.

2. If you want a free up smash after a throw, I suggest a down throw. This only works on certain chars (and like you said it's only at low damage). If you up throw it's very easy to avoid the up smash anyways. Repeated up smash juggling again only works on beginners. Granted on some characters it's automatic but you usually can't get more than two in.

 

[mikekleman]

you have a really good point. i dont mean to kick right away. i simply mean to kick after you get close enough to you opponent. nothing bad can come out of that. they will either shield, get hit, or dodge. if they shield and you get the spacing correct, they will get knocked back just out of their grab range. if they dodge, it will give you enough time to get out of their way. i've played a level 9 and when they dodge or spotdodge, it worked out fine for me

 

[Darkmusician]

you have a really good point. i dont mean to kick right away. i simply mean to kick after you get close enough to you opponent. nothing bad can come out of that. they will either shield, get hit, or dodge. if they shield and you get the spacing correct, they will get knocked back just out of their grab range. if they dodge, it will give you enough time to get out of their way. i've played a level 9 and when they dodge or spotdodge, it worked out fine for me

I see what you mean now, although comps will make you assume things at times though that won't always be true.

It's fine if you get the kick off one way or another, but there are many dangers of DIing into your opponent after a hit/throw especially from low to mid percents.

 

[mikekleman]

ok. thanks for the advice

 

[Darkmusician]

ok. thanks for the advice

No problem. Thank you for contributing your thoughts as well. :]

 

[mikekleman]

i also like to d-grab into a n-air if there isn't too much knockback. its good for spacing to get a dins fire or something

 

[powuh_of_PIE]

Dthrow into Dthrow rarely works, but when it does it scares the **** out of your opponents if they don't know the Zelda matchup. "OMGWTF ZELDA HAZ CHAINGRABZ NOOOOOOOOOOOOO DON'T GET GRABBED" and then you kick the face out of them when they're at perfect range for EVERYTHING.

 

[mikekleman]

lol yeah i love it! usually its best to grab because most people block into a grab when you tru something else. it works equally as well if you kick just right when they shield, you can space yourself for any attack.

 

[-Mars-]

The best thing you could probably do off of dthrow is dash into a shield. You then have all of your options available including dtilt which opens up a lot of options. You shouldn't just predetermine what you are going to do as you dash over there.......that stuff gets you punished.

Think about it.......after getting thrown not many people are going to try to grab Zelda as she's running at them.

 

[MrEh]

Dthrow into an dash shield?

Bowser mentality! ^^

 

[-Mars-]

Dthrow into an dash shield?

Bowser mentality! ^^

*Shrugs* Actually I feel like due to the nature of Brawl.....dash shields are usually the best approach for most of the cast not named MK, and even then it's pretty good for him.

 

[MrEh]

Dash shields are just too good.

It's a pretty safe approach after a Dthrow, and can potentially set up some mean things if your opponent tries to attack you.

 

[mikekleman]

how do you do a dash shield? do you just stop right next to them and shield?

 

[MrEh]

how do you do a dash shield? do you just stop right next to them and shield?

Yeah, you just run up to them and shield. It's a pretty safe approach, and shielding allows you to counterattack their reaction.

 

[MRTW113]

Ooh, dash shield works well when they're expecting a nair

 

[Rykoshet]

Dash attack from a standing position will throw someone offguard and yes, covers a lot of ground in one motion. Obviously up smash punishes habitual spot dodgers, and your grab will come in handy once people get into the habit of shielding everything zelda does. That said, I'd still hold my shield since dealing with zelda's throws is far less dangerous than getting clipped by the other 2 options. Throw has the most options of follow up but yeah depending on DI the dash in of itself can get you caught with retaliation in the first step, it is the smartest option though. Marsulas is right, predetermining your follow up is what gets you stuffed.

<_< I'm finding that a lot of zeldas still run too much in general, which is troublesome considering how bad her run is in the first place.

 

[Canvasofgrey]

Dash shield is a universal approach since all characters can do it. (Though obviously, faster characters have the bigger benefit since they can pivot a shield much better. It helps since Zelda lacks substantial depth into it. Dash attack should be used when you can be sure it'll hit. Zelda's dash attack is rather powerful, but punishable to no end. I prefer using Dash attack from a standing position, or as a follow up., since it tosses enemies in the air where Zelda wants them.

Zelda's Usmash is good, really good. But it shouldn't be spammed and it should be used as many times as novice Zelda's think it should be used. These days, I'm learning that Utilt is just as good as Usmash. Use sometimes, not all the time.

I don't like Zelda's grab since it's rather short ranged and really slow since it doesn't 'grab' until she holds out her secondhand. (For some reason -_-) Unless I pivot it, I don't use i, since I don't need to force myself on approach with Zelda. I want them to come to me, not the other way around.

 

[goodkid]

<_< I'm finding that a lot of zeldas still run too much in general, which is troublesome considering how bad her run is in the first place.

Your right the only options she can do after a dash is grab, jump, spot dodge/roll, or shield, or dash attack, up-smash, or special(not bad actually). She really loses out on her better moves like jab, & baiting/punishing her opponents for damaging moves(smashes/kicks). Lately, I've been walking everywhere, it takes practice, but if you keep your cool & you don't run in blindly, you'll see a lot more things in which you can punish. Most players rarely walk, & the reason why I started was because of the Keep Losing...Try this article on tactical discussion. I've been able to walk all the way across battlefield for a uptilt KO, so satisfying lol, her walk isn't that slow either, it practically the same thing & when you run up to opponents they tend to tense up so when you walk they aren't really expecting much They think of me as a "noob" which tends to work in my advantage.

Zelda's Usmash is good, really good. But it shouldn't be spammed and it should be used as many times as novice Zelda's think it should be used. These days, I'm learning that Utilt is just as good as Usmash. Use sometimes, not all the time.

I don't like Zelda's grab since it's rather short ranged and really slow since it doesn't 'grab' until she holds out her secondhand. (For some reason -_-) Unless I pivot it, I don't use i, since I don't need to force myself on approach with Zelda. I want them to come to me, not the other way around.

Upsmash is better @ punishing spot dodges/air dodges. Upsmash last longer, but starts faster and utilt starts slower but last shorter than upsmash.

I've read somewhere that Zeldas dash grab is the same length as one of D3s grabs can't remember which, so Zelda's grab may seem like it has a short length but its better than you think, I have to check on that.