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Dancing Blade Info Dump

Nike.

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Dancing Blade Info Dump



Probably a thread that should have been created a year ago. Dancing Blade is one of the last major things unexplored to it's fullest potential. With 18 different variations, we should know the strengths and weaknesses of every single one.

For now, this thread will serve as an info dump. Anybody can come in here and post any facts or discoveries about DB. Exact frame data on all versions would be amazing.

When the thread has served it's purpose, I (or anybody else that wants to) can make a legit guide with all of the information gathered from here.

Emblem Lords DB Thread (oh, the nostalgia): http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=172466

Discuss.
 

clowsui

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UDB2 to prevent DI'ing out

completing aerial DBs while falling is a legitimate, underused + unexplored mixup

often times if you are losing an even matchup you are trying to grab too much and you're ignoring DB. DB more

DB1 -> other things is getting less and less effective because people are understanding that mixup more. still useful
 

Shaya

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db3 down is very useful to use within the string for various means. DB2 forward into db3 downward are both similar strikes that if they are able to combo don't necessarily lead to db4 but sets up great zoning for read follow ups.
It also happens to be marth's most disjointed (I believe.. I've beaten MK tilts and smashes cleanly with it) and longest ranged move (when including the step back).
 

Orion*

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DB2 forward into db3 downward are both similar strikes that if they are able to combo don't necessarily lead to db4 but sets up great zoning for read follow ups.
I do this if I start to see people DI out or if I notice some bad habits incoming... Pretty gay positioning tbh for most characters to be in
 

Reizilla

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Subscribing.


Mix up your timing on block if you're getting punished anyway.
 

phi1ny3

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long post, most of this is already known, but if this is going to be a guide, it's good to reiterate.

I love doing downward db3 to strutterstep fsmash if I've connected w/ DB/they're close on the ledge and can't afford to get the punish oos as easily (usually if they're conditioned to expect just the regular full sideB), dtilt (really safe), ftilt/jab (if they jump/try to go upwards), or neutral B (long range, sometimes for shielding people) at really low percents if I am more familiar with how they would react out of it, many times I get a tipper right off the bat, which is especially nice w/ fsmash for getting a good chunk of damage. Higher percents, you just shield or jump and see what the opponent does, and you usually get some good hits in regardless.

As usual, DB1 has some good use outside of its traditional use while in the air. It helps w/ recovery a little by getting that boost, mixing up your recovery, or slowing your fall (at the cost of horizontal movement iirc), which can mean the difference between your upB getting stopped by invincibility and it knocking them just when they are all out. It's also a decent preemptive mixup against tornado in the MK MU while wavebouncing it in the air. Sadly, DB1 as a gimmicky stringing move is not so useful as it used to be as more people are familiar with it, but still works sometimes for landing strings.

upB's entire upward variation is great for certain characters that have good recoveries that aren't worth doing much for edgeguarding, but are prime for juggling (snake and ROB come to mind, although both are still fairly exploitable in edgeguarding).

Extremely gimmicky, but something I've noticed: Funny thing when you've got a pocket marth, everyone recognizes the "novice marth"/stressed or choked failed upB (the accidental, super rushed db1 + upward 2nd hit, then a panicked shield/upB after), I've gotten a couple of good opportunities from the opponent expecting something like upB or shield, when in fact you can just retreat nair or whatnot and get away, or even grab them or something. Really situational and probably not too useful at a higher level of play, but don't be surprised when the opponent shields or spotdodges that variation after you do it expecting an upB, especially oos. Ignore this, falls under mindgames more than mixups and isn't steadily reliable for something like this lol

DB1 -> grab still works sometimes, it's more useful for landing the grab while chasing down after a throw or something to abuse that minute landing lag and create the trap w/o them having as many options to escape as when they are on the ground. Also works pretty well if you've gotten a successful crossup, because unless they have a good upB oos, they'll often act really predictably to that poke because they can't just grab you when you're behind them.

clowsui is right, a lot of people don't expect any more of a full DB string coming down from the air, they often drop shield for some odd reason. It's kinda something I played around with, you definitely need to do it at a certain height or it's really obvious as you're coming down.

DB's general purposes are still very undervalued by some imo, just because even getting a full DB at low percents immediately does several things:
-refreshes your moveset
-covers options like airdodge and spotdodge if it hasn't hit them yet
-because the initial knockback is actually fairly strong on the last hit, it puts them offstage a lot. Opponent being offstage = good for Marth period, even if it means only securing control of the stage and putting your opponent in a bad spot.
 

B.A.M.

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DB1 dtilt is still amazing in my eyes. DB1 is so bomb when spaced on shield, people just want to roll or sit there. screw buffering some other mix up just watch the damn player. Also phi1ny3 DB3> stutter step fsmash should never work cuz they can grab you out of DB3 ALWAYS except in rare spacing cases. Also i love using DB up variants as Anti Airs; you sometimes get dumb landing traps from it.

Aerial DB is WAAAAY underrated.
 

phi1ny3

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Not on shield, just if you think you want to get greedy (usually a loaded word that's bad, it's pretty safe to get lots more damage doing this, esp. when they're backed near the edge), tacking on more damage while they've been hit by the rest of DB (or a real scare) at the beginning from a frame 4 setup is pretty nice, db 3rd down in general helps set up for that because of the large back step, mostly dtilt/ftilt is the better alternative anyways (but getting tipper fsmash afterwards on occasion is so boss).

I should stress that this is the downward hit of DB3, not the regular. anything other than DB1 and downward DB3 really doesn't have too much application for mixup on its own because they're too laggy.
 

C.J.

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If you want to DI out of it, hold completely away from Marth and remain holding that way through the 1st three hits. The 4th hit will miss.

However, DB2up makes DIing out of it -almost- impossible so w/e.

If you hold into Marth then a really fast aerial MIGHT work sometimes (MK's nair/uair, Diddy's uair)
 

tekkie

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If you want to DI out of it, hold completely away from Marth and remain holding that way through the 1st three hits. The 4th hit will miss.

However, DB2up makes DIing out of it -almost- impossible so w/e.

If you hold into Marth then a really fast aerial MIGHT work sometimes (MK's nair/uair, Diddy's uair)
that's what i was curious about, if there was a certain frame window
 

C.J.

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In my experience as Marth/vs them, it seems completely random. Probably some combination of staleness/what part of the sword they hit you with/the speed of which they DB/what part of the previous swing they hit you with.

TL;DR: mash
 

Sky Pirate

The best defense is a lot of frigging healing
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Are any smash researchers willing to do frame data on this?
Not a researcher, but will a bored, curious guy do?

From his character PAC:

S1================================================
Frame 4-6: Hitbox
Frame 5-26: Can input second DB
Frame 7: Earliest second DB animation can start
FAF: Frame 30

S2================================================
Up
Frame 7-10: Hitbox
Frame 11-31: Can input third DB
Frame 12: Earliest third DB animation can start
FAF: Frame 41

Down/Side
Frame 9-10: Hitbox
Frame 11-32: Can input third DB
Frame 13: Earliest third DB animation can start
FAF: Frame 41

S3================================================
Up
Frame 8-10: Hitbox
Frame 11-37: Can input last DB
Frame 17: Earliest fourth DB animation can start
FAF: Frame 47

Side
Frame 6-8: Hitbox
Frame 9-36: Can input last DB
Frame 12: Earliest fourth DB animation can start
FAF: Frame 47

Down
Frame 8-10: Hitbox
Frame 11-34: Can input last DB
Frame 13: Earliest fourth DB animation can start
FAF: Frame 47

S4================================================
Up
Frame 11-15: Hitbox
FAF: Frame 51

Side
Frame 13-15: Hitbox
FAF: Frame 56

Down
Frame 13-14: Hitbox
Frame 19-20: Hitbox
Frame 25-26: Hitbox
Frame 31-32: Hitbox
Frame 37-38: Final Hitbox
FAF: Frame 66

  • All hitbox ranges are inclusive. If it says "Frame 13-14", the hitbox is out only on frames 13 and 14.
  • For "Earliest X DB animation can start", the frame given would be the first frame of the next attack.
    Example: If you input DB1 then DB2Up on frame 5 of DB1, the second DB hitbox would come out on frame 13 of the total attack.
    I hope this makes sense. ^^;
  • The most important thing this list is missing right now is hitlag. It really affects the timing.
  • I've already verified them once myself with frame advance, but it'd be appreciated if anyone feels like checking them again.
 

C.J.

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That's incredible. Very good to know.

Now if we could just annoy someone else to do hitlag/advantage of each hit on shield.
 

Nike.

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I just came.

EDIT:
S4================================================
Up
Frame 11-15: Hitbox
FAF: Frame 51

Side
Frame 13-15: Hitbox
FAF: Frame 56
Up version of DB4 looks way better from a frame standpoint. Hitbox comes out 2 frames faster (though lasts longer, wonder how SDI affects it) and ends 5 frames earlier.
Could make a huge difference if you choked on a shield or something.
 

C.J.

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Actually, I was recently told that DB4up can shield poke similarly to MK's nado. I haven't tested this at all. But it it's true 4th hit up on shield is by far the best option available in that situation.
 

Sky Pirate

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Apparently DB3 Side-version does extra shield damage. Never knew that.

EDIT: Never mind, Marth himself doesn't seem to go through hitlag for his non-DB4 attacks. Finding hitlag would be annoying.

Advantage on block would take about the same amount of effort.
 

Sky Pirate

The best defense is a lot of frigging healing
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Then Nike is a terrible person for tying me down and forcing me to do it with his tantalizing questions.

Is this what you're talking about?
As far as I can tell, the only thing my list has that yours doesn't is the animation start points.
You also might want to recheck some/all of your "input" frame ranges. ^^;

If you've obtained updated data since then or I'm incorrect in some way, I apologize for my insolence.
 

Sky Pirate

The best defense is a lot of frigging healing
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Incorrect. Go play with it in frame advance.

As you know, DB4Down has a very easily-recognized starting animation so we can use this as a reference.
I'll also refer to this information from my DB3Side frame data:
Frame 9-36: Can input last DB
Frame 12: Earliest fourth DB animation can start

  • Do DBSide up through DB2 in frame advance.
  • Freeze before the third input.
  • Enter DB3Side and advance to frame 6 of the move. You will hear a sound on that frame. (just a reference point to ensure that we're on the same page)
  • Advance to frame 8. Hold Down+B and advance one frame. This will enter DB4Down on frame 9.
  • Release it before advancing again to ensure that it is ONLY input on frame 9. DB4Down will have been entered on frame nine, but you will notice as you advance that the animation will not be started until frame 12. You'll notice that Marth suddenly "jumps" into a defensive-looking position on that frame.

Not coincidentally, frame 12 is when RA-Bit 20 is set to "True".
Was there a miscommunication of some sort?
 

Reizilla

The Old Lapras and the Sea
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DB4 up won me a set once. Those 5 frames let me buffer DS when I should have gotten grabbed :embarrass:

But it also tends to whiff on short/low opponents.
 

KirbyIRL

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I very occasionally use db(all)up as anti-air for people who approach you diagonally (yoshi, kirby, dk, etc) to great effect, since they're all fairly disjointed and I feel like nobody uses it as anti air, especially since when those characters see you starting a db and they're away from you, they get greedy for a punish.

Also I don't know of anyone else that does this purposely but I've found that db1>db1-4 works surprisingly often, especially if they're only di-ing away. It's only like 4 extra percent but it helps, and it's a psychological thing, too.

And I've always wanted to test this, but I've never gotten around to it; it's known that if you're crouching when you get hit, there's less hitstun...well if someone crouch-di's db1 is it possible for them to ps db2 and punish with grab? It seems plausible and I've never actually tried it, and it'd be really important if it did work...
 

C.J.

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There's less hitlag, not less hitstun. So no, there wouldn't. (unless you SDI it down so you hit the ground quicker so you don't have to land after hitstun letting you PS... but that just sounds silly.)
 

M@v

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I know everyone knows a lot of characters can di out of db4 down, but especially don't do it to wario. He can di into you and clap you out of it.

I usually use the side db since its hard to get of. If I'm facing light characters that try to DI in, I end with a s4 up slash.
 

M@v

Subarashii!
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Forgive my double post here, but I want to get some input.

I'd be willing to make a dancing blades damage guide for every character for all possible DB combinations. I only did snake for now. I want to know if everyone here would find this useful, or changes I could make to improve it. I want to find this out know before I go and do this on 30+ more characters, lol.



Dancing Blades Damage info.

Variables: Character weight/DI makes them go into tippers.

All DB’s were started right next to character

Test character used: Snake

Stage: FD

S-S-S-S: 16%

S-S-S-D: 23%

S-S-S-U: 16%*

S-S-D-D: 21%

S-S-U-U: 16%

S-S-D-U: 16%*

S-S-U-D: 21%

S-U-U-U: 16%

S-D-D-D: 21%

S-U-U-D: 21%

S-U-D-D: 21%

S-U-D-U: 16%*

S-D-D-U: 16%*

S-D-U-D: 21%

S-D-S-U: 16%*

S-D-S-D: 23%

S-D-S-S: 16%

S-U-S-U: 16*

S-U-S-D: 21%

S-U-S-S: 16%

*NOTE: It should be noted that any S-U or D-U endings can result in a tipper on the last U by waiting a slight amount of time. This increases the damage output by 2%.
 

Nike.

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Was this done in practice mode?
All dancing blade moves fall under the same stale counter.
It's also a move we constantly use to unstale the rest of our moveset.
 

C.J.

Smash Master
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Probably the most under appreciated aspect of this move unfortunately =(

Also, those definitely seem wrong. I know from *a LOT* of exp that D-D-D-S only does 18%
 

Nike.

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I remember in 08 that it was like the biggest deal ever lol.
Everytime the opponent is in the 120-140% range, I force myself to do 1-2 to refresh everything x)
 

M@v

Subarashii!
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Yeah, did it in practice mode. I mean I could see some value in it, but at the same time there are so many variables involved with the move, the biggest ones being how far away you start it from your opponent, which influences what tippers, and the opponents di once caught in it. Both those factors can result in drastically different damage percents.
 

C.J.

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Well, why you no share then?

Granted, it's not particularly useful info, but still interesting.
 
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