Custom Specials: Misconceptions and Publicizing

[Raijinken]

I dont, but my sparring buddy does with Sheik. I pick one costume per character and stick with it. Unless its Bowser Jr

edit: Okay, without customs I use Diddy and Bowser, with some Falcon thrown in now. Given my love for those characters, who do you guys suggest I pick up in a new meta with customs on?

Seeing as we have no clue how the meta'll pan out, I'd suggest grabbing someone who benefits more from customs than those three. Ganondorf might be a good one, since you already play some Falcon. He's also a hard hitter, which the rest of yours are as well (bar Hoohah).

 

[MrGame&Rock]

Seeing as we have no clue how the meta'll pan out, I'd suggest grabbing someone who benefits more from customs than those three. Ganondorf might be a good one, since you already play some Falcon. He's also a hard hitter, which the rest of yours are as well (bar Hoohah).

YES. I love playing Ganondorf, mained him in Balanced Brawl, sure as hell I'll be using him with WizDropkick and Dark Fists. I'm also considering Palutena (the customs hype) and Donkey Kong (though idk what to use outside the Kong Cyclone)

 

[Thinkaman]

YES. I love playing Ganondorf, mained him in Balanced Brawl, sure as hell I'll be using him with WizDropkick and Dark Fists. I'm also considering Palutena (the customs hype) and Donkey Kong (though idk what to use outside the Kong Cyclone)

Imo DK's defaults are otherwise best. His customs aren't bad, but his defaults are just plain better.

 

[T0MMY]

I would love to see someone here with an actual highly critical post arguing FOR having them banned.
At this point most, if not all, of the analyst people back here agree that Customs should be allowed.

Wouldn't this be attempting to shift the burden of proof in a way? The way I see it is Custom Fighters: OFF is the standard. Any deviation or change in standard needs to be the side of argument that needs reason for a change.
Consider also that Customs are not "banned", but the Custom Fighters setting is set to "OFF" as a standard game setting and can be switched "ON" when given compelling reason to do so - it is set to "OFF" as a default, and just like Time and Items needed compelling reason to be changed so would Custom Fighters, criteria for changing rules should reasonably be across the board for every matter.
If it's good, it will change with due process.

T0MMY arguing that depth doesn't matter.

I strongly refute such allegations.
As a reminder making up fabrications about people to push an agenda will not only make the one using an ad hominem look bad but causes the side of their argument to look bad (whether that side is a valuable one or not), so you're putting a lot at risk here with this claim.
Go ahead and post a link to where the quote from me saying depth doesn't matter can be found :^p

I'm just gonna throw this out there - there's a reason we play Smash instead of Rock Paper Scissors. It may have something to do with, um... Depth. That there's more to the game than rock paper scissors

There is something to be said about the quality of depth though.
There's a reason Rock, Paper, and Scissors is the standard and not Rock, Paper, Scissors, X, Y, Z, N... ;^)

 

[Raijinken]

Wouldn't this be attempting to shift the burden of proof in a way? The way I see it is Custom Fighters: OFF is the standard. Any deviation or change in standard needs to be the side of argument that needs reason for a change.
Consider also that Customs are not "banned", but the Custom Fighters setting is set to "OFF" as a standard game setting and can be switched "ON" when given compelling reason to do so - it is set to "OFF" as a default, and just like Time and Items needed compelling reason to be changed so would Custom Fighters, criteria for changing rules should reasonably be across the board for every matter.
If it's good, it will change with due process.

The same can be argued of stock vs time, stage selection, and many other details. Stock and time was settled ages ago, as was team attack for team matches. Stage Selection, though, is one in which the burden of proof is very often put onto people to prove that a stage isn't unfair, compared to the typical "We like Smashville and things similar to Smashville." stance.

But even if the burden of proof is on the pro-custom camp, I feel, as a biased pro-custom analyst, that proof has been provided. Logistics have been solved, demonstrations have been given, and the claims have been made. On the other hand, anti-customs arguments that aren't logistics-related can generally be generalized as "I'm lazy and don't want to unlock them" or "I think they're overpowered because I haven't used them." Neither side is really able to say anything directly that can convince the other side outright (and objectively), but the pro-customs camp has managed to convince a lot of people that no custom is singularly overpowered and they benefit weaker characters more than stronger, while the anti-customs camp still more or less just says "We think we're right but we can't prove it because we've not even bothered unlocking them to test."

 

[T0MMY]

The same can be argued of stock vs time, stage selection, and many other details.

Yeah, I addressed that. Those game settings went through the due process like any game change should. The point was that Custom Fighters setting cannot reasonably be 'above the law' in such regards.

But even if the burden of proof is on the pro-custom camp, I feel, as a biased pro-custom analyst, that proof has been provided. Logistics have been solved, demonstrations have been given, and the claims have been made.

I do not refute the claims that back up how you feel regarding the change of settings, but that's not the end, it's just groundwork. Next up is actually putting it to work in acceptable tournaments - the best way to do that is run side events in tournaments that have customs "banned" to remove the stigma that they are not actually "banned", just a setting that has not been adjusted yet. When this stigma is removed then the next step is to point to the popularity. Once it is accepted by a vast majority who has seen that no major issues exist (or have been reasonably resolved) then a major event will gladly accept it as a standard ruling and thus a paradigm shift occurs.

However, the way most are proceeding with things from what I've seen online, is a hard push of now-or-never utilizing such undesirable tactics as vocal minority and Mii ransoming. If this kind of behavior doesn't end then it's essentially sealing the fate of the movement before it gets its footing as well as risks bringing the entire Smash Wii U competitive scene's image crashing with it.

On the other hand, anti-customs arguments that aren't logistics-related can generally be generalized as "I'm lazy and don't want to unlock them" or "I think they're overpowered because I haven't used them."

Pigeon-holing those who could otherwise be allies is making matters worse. Lazy people exist and no need to worry about them - if they are lazy they will do nothing good for progression. Pigeon-holing just creates "sides" where people insult each other; compare that result to working together to see where both sides of the camp can do what's best for the community.

 

[popsofctown]

Normally a default setting on a competitive game is considered a default suggestion for how the game should be played, and a burden of proof does indeed go towards changing that setting. Customs on, however, is not a "default rules setting", it's an "advanced expert play on?" setting. It adds complexity to the game rather than fundamentally changing the rules or how winning is defined, like stock vs. time does, where burden of proof was necessary to switch to stock.

"advanced expert play on?" type settings are always defaulted to on in competitive play because they increase the difficulty or complexity of the game and unless something unusual is going on, they consistently improve the competitivity of the game by enhancing skill testing. Competitive puzzle games are played on the hardest difficulty head to head. Many RTS's have a default setting that encourages players to start out playing the RTS at a slower, more manageable speed, but in competitive play the standard is always to max out the speed setting for expert play and increase the difficulty and time management mechanics. Many games have characters with more complex, difficult mechanics locked by default, but once those characters are unlocked, the difficulty and complexity they bring to the game is welcomed into competitive play.

 

[Conda]

There is something to be said about the quality of depth though.
There's a reason Rock, Paper, and Scissors is the standard and not Rock, Paper, Scissors, X, Y, Z, N... ;^)

RPS is 'the standard' as much as dice is 'the standard'. There is no standard, there's social convention. Rock Paper Scissors is catchy and goofy and can be played by kids for fun due to the silly theme and brainlessness. Attributing Rock Paper Scissors's popularity to its 'quality of depth', and using that as an actual argument for something, is probably reaching.

 

[Thinkaman]

RPS is 'the standard' as much as dice is 'the standard'. There is no standard, there's social convention. Rock Paper Scissors is catchy and goofy and can be played by kids for fun due to the silly theme and brainlessness. Attributing Rock Paper Scissors's popularity to its 'quality of depth', and using that as an actual argument for something, is probably reaching.

I mean, I think his point was not of the value of RPS (it's an unorientable yomi-state, aka terrible, useless, and random) but that RPS is strictly superior to rock-paper-scissors-lizard-spock, in which complexity is added to no meaningful gain whatsoever.

In game designer hell, you have to play RPSLS to see who goes first in Candyland.

 

[thehard]

Normally a default setting on a competitive game is considered a default suggestion for how the game should be played, and a burden of proof does indeed go towards changing that setting. Customs on, however, is not a "default rules setting", it's an "advanced expert play on?" setting. It adds complexity to the game rather than fundamentally changing the rules or how winning is defined, like stock vs. time does, where burden of proof was necessary to switch to stock.

"advanced expert play on?" type settings are always defaulted to on in competitive play because they increase the difficulty or complexity of the game and unless something unusual is going on, they consistently improve the competitivity of the game by enhancing skill testing. Competitive puzzle games are played on the hardest difficulty head to head. Many RTS's have a default setting that encourages players to start out playing the RTS at a slower, more manageable speed, but in competitive play the standard is always to max out the speed setting for expert play and increase the difficulty and time management mechanics. Many games have characters with more complex, difficult mechanics locked by default, but once those characters are unlocked, the difficulty and complexity they bring to the game is welcomed into competitive play.

You know, I really want Sakurai and co. to implement a stage hazard toggle just so they can label "Off" as "Easy Mode"

 

[ParanoidDrone]

You know, I really want Sakurai and co. to implement a stage hazard toggle just so they can label "Off" as "Easy Mode"

That actually sounds like something they'd do. Huh.

 

[popsofctown]

I mean, I think his point was not of the value of RPS (it's an unorientable yomi-state, aka terrible, useless, and random) but that RPS is strictly superior to rock-paper-scissors-lizard-spock, in which complexity is added to no meaningful gain whatsoever.

In game designer hell, you have to play RPSLS to see who goes first in Candyland.

It's rarely possible to add complexity without gaining something in games that had any value to begin with. The application to smash is extrapolation beyond the range of the data.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Super Turbo has speed settings that increase the pace of the game; people always put it at the maximum in tournament play.

 

[Thinkaman]

It's rarely possible to add complexity without gaining something in games that had any value to begin with. The application to smash is extrapolation beyond the range of the data.

This isn't true.

If you add a random made up unit or rule to Chess, I would bet 1000:1 odds it would be a worse game with inferior depth.

The same is true of Starcarft, LoL, physical sports, and Smash.

Adding random ingredients to a curated recipe is almost always a bad idea, and this is just a subset of that notion.

Complexity is neither good nor evil. It is a budget--and all game mechanisms have a complexity cost.

Super Turbo has speed settings that increase the pace of the game; people always put it at the maximum in tournament play.

Starcraft does the same.

 

[popsofctown]

A random unit or rule always adds something, it just usually takes away even more. I was speaking gross income, not net income.

 

[Raijinken]

This isn't true.

If you add a random made up unit or rule to Chess, I would bet 1000:1 odds it would be a worse game with inferior depth.

The same is true of Starcarft, LoL, physical sports, and Smash.

Adding random ingredients to a curated recipe is almost always a bad idea, and this is just a subset of that notion.

Complexity is neither good nor evil. It is a budget--and all game mechanisms have a complexity cost.



Starcraft does the same.

In a lot of cases, it depends on the rule being added. For instance, take basically any Chess variant. I'll use Shogi as an example since I play and enjoy that one. It's fundamentally Chess, but with a small handful of changes: Units have specific promotions (and almost all promote), the grid is 9x9, and you can drop any captured piece in place of a turn, using it as your own unit. There are other rules in play, mostly resembling Chess, but the end result is a unique flavor of game that's pretty impossible to analyze simply as "Deeper" or "less deep" than Chess, and also impossible to label as better or worse objectively. It changes and adds certain kinds of depth with other tradeoffs. Of course, the combined result of Shogi's changes make it a bit more like playing Smash in Stamina Mode (or even Time Mode) versus Stock, rather than playing with or without 102 additional moves available, so the analogy weakens in that regard. But the idea is that haphazard rule changing for the sake of rule changing is much like haphazard hero balance for the sake of making a change. It should only be done with intent and direction, and if that intent is in line with the action itself.

Adding customs increases variety and matchup potential, which many players desire in Smash as a colorful crossover fighting game. The change isn't so drastic as to alter the rules of engagement, but more notably, it also doesn't (at least not how I can see it) remove any depth from any angle.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I dont, but my sparring buddy does with Sheik. I pick one costume per character and stick with it. Unless its Bowser Jr

edit: Okay, without customs I use Diddy and Bowser, with some Falcon thrown in now. Given my love for those characters, who do you guys suggest I pick up in a new meta with customs on?

There's nothing wrong with those characters with customs on. Diddy is still Diddy; he gets nothing but... he's still Diddy. Bowser's new side specials are actually a huge upgrade for the character (either one, both very good in different ways), and the more I see it in action, the more I really like Fire Roar (I've seen some love for Sliding Fortress and the down special variants too, but they're more niche). Falcon turns his neutral special into a kinda real move with Dashing Falcon Punch, and while none of his other options are "solid", Lightning Falcon Kick can true combo into knee (landing hitbox has a stun hit, SH knee after you get it) which is the most awesome thing that's definitely worth at least toying with.

 

[MajorMajora]

I made a thread for people to post any videos or streamers featuring custom moves, in order to help spread awareness. If you guys would like to add to it to raise awareness, I'll just drop it here.

http://smashboards.com/threads/competitive-custom-move-tournaments-matches-wanted.391143/

 

[MrGame&Rock]

There's nothing wrong with those characters with customs on. Diddy is still Diddy; he gets nothing but... he's still Diddy. Bowser's new side specials are actually a huge upgrade for the character (either one, both very good in different ways), and the more I see it in action, the more I really like Fire Roar (I've seen some love for Sliding Fortress and the down special variants too, but they're more niche). Falcon turns his neutral special into a kinda real move with Dashing Falcon Punch, and while none of his other options are "solid", Lightning Falcon Kick can true combo into knee (landing hitbox has a stun hit, SH knee after you get it) which is the most awesome thing that's definitely worth at least toying with.

I'll give Lightning Kick a whirl, thanks. And I know they're still good, but having customs makes me want to use someone who REALLY benefits from them, you feel me?

 

[Thinkaman]

Yeah, anyone expecting customs to make Diddy and Sheik lose their position as the best characters are in for a disappointment.

The custom specials we have make the game significantly more balanced, but better != perfect, and the benefits are on the conservative side. (No overshooting)

So for better or for worse, players who main Diddy, Sheik, or other top tiers get the best of both worlds--they still have SOME tier advantage, but also no longer have to feel like they are wasting their time exploring other characters.

 

[rosetta_stoned]

So what are some examples of characters and custom moves that change either for the better or bring a different play style?

I'm not against it and I don't have any experience with it. I would be completely down with custom moves as a mode on FG and a spot in tourneys - though i think custom moves should be its own niche and be kept segregated.

 

[popsofctown]

So what are some examples of characters and custom moves that change either for the better or bring a different play style?

I'm not against it and I don't have any experience with it. I would be completely down with custom moves as a mode on FG and a spot in tourneys - though i think custom moves should be its own niche and be kept segregated.

There's actually a lot more characters that get a raw power boost and play in mostly the same way than there are characters that gain alternate, viable playstyles. Which is kind of disappointing, but almost all the characters getting the raw power boost were on the lower end of the spectrum to begin with, and the lack of total playstyle changes means you should fear the transition less than you might think.

Ganon is one of the best examples or raw power boost without much style change
I've been experimenting with Pacman's Freaky Fruit projectile, and the low charge fruits tend to be powerful compared to the high charge fruits, which allows you to totally shift how campy you play Pacman since it becomes a Samus Missile sort of projectile instead of a Samus Charge shot sort of projectile, to some extent. That's one of the promising alternate playstyles.

It's subjective so I'll stick with those two.

As for keeping them separate.. once you get a taste I doubt you'll want to go back. Custom banned tournaments are essentially low tier tournament subsets of Customs legal tournaments.

 

[Thinkaman]

Custom banned tournaments are essentially low tier tournament subsets of Customs legal tournaments.

With Diddy, Sheik, and Rosalina thrown in for giggles.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

People over-estimate wizard dropkick and underestimate regular old wizkick. Ganon doesn't turn into a monster suddenly with customs on, because his normal attacks and aerials are already so rewarding that they remain a staple of his game.

The only thing he has that is genuinely awful is his grab and jab, so he's got no great options out of shield. You could argue warlock punch is pretty bad, but he doesn't get any magic bullets to cure that problem, either. That said, what's important is that customs provide more utility to deal with a broader spectrum of options and matchups, which adds depth to the game. I just don't see how that can ever be a bad thing.

 

[B.A.M.]

@ John12346 @ Amazing Ampharos Something that may help your cause ( acutually thought that was the point of this thread) is the have an analytical break down of customs. Most importantly particular customs that seem overbearing at this point in time. A lot of people are convinced Kong Cyclone is absolutely absurd; however it seems there are some viable counter options that dont really require some extensive execution. Things like that imo would be a good thing. ESPECIALLY with EVO around the corner. I mean Im all for testing custom play out ( although I dont concur with a major reason behind doing so a.k.a Smash 4's metagame is stale and Smash 4 is gonna die (which is completely bypassing the ACTUAL issue; the community)), however EVO is around the corner and honestly the last thing you would want to have as avid custom supporters is a whole debacle of lesser players defeating high to top players because of them being misinformed. This is really a short window for this kind of change, and quite honestly I think its a horrific one made by Mr. Wizard given the time line. It can be very doable though; but given this community lack of dedication ( they really need to bring Smash Lab back) and influx of casual mentality ( which was already somewhat present in Brawl due to the absence of the experience Melee community) it makes for a daunting task. Thats why I really feel thats one of the best things that can be done at this point in time.

I myself would like to see where this goes, and just recently joined a team with a production company that will allow me to help out with this sort of thing. But yeah having a thread where people can come to learn about particular nuances of the stronger custom moves would be ideal for taking this to the next level. We ran a custom tournament over in So Cal and while people did enjoy the welcome change, many of the more seasoned players inevitably went default. Some were also "janked" out by some customs and were clearly frustrated. I bring that up because,while many casuals will test the waters with competitive play, many will eventually leave. And while we want to keep the stream monsters happy, we also need to have a community that loves what they play otherwise theres no one for the monster to view. So yeah, definitely got to have some breakdowns of these customs.

 

[John12346]

At the moment there is this playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLHBCQLRFbEEP9K9N470s96ocjd-JOJoDo

But it is true that the functions of each move should be delved into a little further. Through no prompting on my end, though, NinjaLink did inform me(and actually just posted on Facebook) that he plans on making a playlist that more deeply explores the functions of each characters' custom specials.

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

Of course, if tournaments let customs be a part of high-level play, where does that leave the Miis? Would they become legal in tournaments as long as there's no copyright-infringing Miis in use or do they stay banned to prevent the issue from even occuring? Would there be custom Miis for each person in the tournament or would they have preset Miis for tournament use?

But if TO's keep customs off, we have the issue of Fox, Diddy and Shiek dominating the meta as usual, which would eventually get boring to watch even if it is the safer option. So either way is going to lead to some issues; but I think that experimenting with customs in friendlies could be a vital chance to see how they operate in a tournament-styled ruleset, which could be what we need to see if customs should be legal or not. If they prove to be beneficial, then that's that. If they prove to be OP, than that's that.

I don't see why we should go one way or the other untill we get a firm grasp on how they work competetively.

 

[LimitCrown]

How would enabling custom moves prevent those characters from being the best? None of those characters have terrible custom moves.

 

[popsofctown]

How would enabling custom moves prevent those characters from being the best? None of those characters have terrible custom moves.

Fox is an unusual inclusion in the list because he's not that dominant and his customs are not that bad, but Diddy and Sheik have weaker custom-granted-improvement than the average character. They might not be why-would-I-ever-use-this downgrades like Link's Giant Bomb, but switching over to them only ever grants a modest improvement.

 

[DunnoBro]

The main improvements to sheik and diddy are mostly situational and outlier. (Penetrating needles are good, but overhyped, they should only break an ignorant players shield.)

As the two already best characters though, these slight improvements should at least help them retain their viability. (Especially when their normal attacks alone are bonkers)

Customs like dropkick, zigzag, kong cyclone, and lightweight/super speed fundamentally change the core playstyle and overall options for characters as a whole.

Fox however, while the same in the neutral, receives some absurdly potent pressure potential. Air dodge reads become death around 50, combo and follow-up potential is overall higher and stronger (downthrow > wolf flash, jab > wolf flash, dash attack > wolf slash > tech chase upair/upsmash) And I wouldn't be surprised to see him achieve top tier status if it weren't for the dumbest combos working on him while also being able to kill him.

 

[Raijinken]

Fox however, while the same in the neutral, receives some absurdly potent pressure potential. Air dodge reads become death around 50, combo and follow-up potential is overall higher and stronger (downthrow > wolf flash, jab > wolf flash, dash attack > wolf slash > tech chase upair/upsmash) And I wouldn't be surprised to see him achieve top tier status if it weren't for the dumbest combos working on him while also being able to kill him.

Isn't that more or less the goal of high-level play? Everyone's absurd enough that who wins will boil down to better execution of absurdity?

 

[DunnoBro]

Isn't that more or less the goal of high-level play? Everyone's absurd enough that who wins will boil down to better execution of absurdity?

Of course, I was just noting fox as a "top character" gets helped out more by customs than others. (Though diddy/sheik are definitely on higher tier than fox)

 

[Octagon]

Customs like dropkick, zigzag, kong cyclone, and lightweight/super speed fundamentally change the core playstyle and overall options for characters as a whole.

Amen, i can speak for the dropkick and zigzag when i say it changes up your options greatly that can throw off your opponent very well