Counters, Reflectors and Absorbs - WIP

[-RedX-]

Woah, Ike's counter is x1.2 now? Does that mean the counter frames kick in faster now? Or was that just a rumor?

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

Woah, Ike's counter is x1.2 now? Does that mean the counter frames kick in faster now? Or was that just a rumor?

Ike's Counter was always 1.2x. What changed is that Marth's also became 1.2x, so I wouldn't be surprised if Ike's Counter was buffed in other ways to keep up.

 

[Chiroz]

So... Greninja's counter doesn't scale, and Lucario's scaling is only aura-dependent?



I don't know the specifics of how Greninja's Hydro Pump would work, but I think only one hitbox would be applied at a time; either the damaging hitbox or the pushing hitbox. So it might be, say, a damaging hitbox first, and the KB launches the opponent into the pushing hitbox. Also, pushing hitboxes seem to have weight-dependent set knockback. Villager's watering can applies 22 units of KB to a character with a weight value of 98 at 0% and 300%, and Mario's fully charged FLUDD applies 38 units of KB to a character with a weight value of 98 at 0% and 300%. I don't remember any pushing hitboxes in Brawl being different.

So whether or not Hydro Pump's pushing hitbox applies more knockback than FLUDD on any one weight value is wholly dependent on the move's BKB.

Edit: for reference, the watering can applies 24 KB to Pikachu, 22 KB to Mario, and 21 KB to Link, with all characters at 0%. Pushing hitboxes don't stale since they have set knockback so

Greninja's Up-B is only a pushing hitbox at all times but it also deals damage.



Edit: Aerodome you better not say his Up-B sucks. His Up-B is awesome, lol.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Ike's counter is still really slow. Not sure why it was nerfed since it's probably the worst counter in the game.

 

[san.]

Ike's Counter 2 stuns and always deals 1%, but I am not certain if the stun scales based on the damage it is countering.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Actually, it's entirely possible to have a pushing hitbox deal damage. Example: Mii Gunner's Neutral Special 2, Laser Blaze. It does non-flinching damage like Fox's Blaster, but also very slightly pushes the opponent back.

Ah whoops. I really misread Raykz's post then. I thought he meant Hydro Pump had both pushing hitboxes and normal hitboxes. But yeah you're totally right, a pushing hitbox isn't necessarily unable to deal damage.

Edit: I can confirm that Villager's Pocket does not add a multiplier to pushing hitboxes. Then again I probably should have expected this considering pushing hitboxes nearly always have set knockback

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Counters are done.

Will finish reflectors and maybe absorbs tomorrow. Depends on how mean the custom moves want to be at being found. Literally just spent 45 minutes looking for Greninja's 3rd substitute.

 

[SonicZeroX]

How does Shulk's counter work exactly? Does it get stronger/weaker the more it's used, or does the attack vary by holding different directions?

 

[Rakurai]

It does more damage and knockback but has less range if you hold forward prior to the counter triggering.

The version of the counter that's performed without any additional inputs also has a sweetspot on it, which I believe is the source of the 10% damage hit.

 

[Chiroz]

How does Shulk's counter work exactly? Does it get stronger/weaker the more it's used, or does the attack vary by holding different directions?

Both.

It gets weaker the more it's used on a per stock basis (will only reset when you die). It also deals more knockback when you hold certain directions.

 

[Thinkaman]

Ike's Counter 2 stuns and always deals 1%, but I am not certain if the stun scales based on the damage it is countering.

Based strictly on NinjaLink's video, I'm pretty confident it does.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Both.

It gets weaker the more it's used on a per stock basis (will only reset when you die). It also deals more knockback when you hold certain directions.

It doesn't get weaker

Apparently the counter duration gets shorter but who knows.

Based strictly on NinjaLink's video, I'm pretty confident it does.

status effects works like they do in Brawl/Melee/64

The more knockback you'd take from an attack, the longer the duration. So really you can counter Warlock Punch or Fox Laser at 30% and deal the same stun time since the attack doesn't scale at all.

edit: derp warlock punch does more kb than fox laser

I COULD be wrong, but I'm fairly certain this is how it actually works

Edit: Let me test it rather than make theories, what I said above is utterly terribly wrong

im tired

 

[Chiroz]

It doesn't get weaker

Apparently the counter duration gets shorter but who knows.

That's what I thought initially from Saurai's POTD comment as the words he used was that it "gets harder", but many people on streams have said it deals less damage/knockback the more you counter.

I will say thought that I haven't in fact tested it myself so I cannot be 100% sure it hits less hard the more you counter. You have provided a lot of good info thus far so I will believe your word over the streamers I guess.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

**** me, i realised i already played with this in training mode

a falco laser at 999% stuns for longer than it does at 0%

 

[Chiroz]

**** me, i realised i already played with this in training mode

a falco laser at 999% stuns for longer than it does at 0%

Is that only for electric hitboxes or is that for all no-knockback hitstun moves?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Well the idea is that Falco laser has set knockback, so the stun duration wouldn't change at 999% if it didn't scale off victim %

 

[Chiroz]

Well the idea is that Falco laser has set knockback, so the stun duration wouldn't change at 999% if it didn't scale off victim %

Yea, I meant isn't Falco's laser an electric hitbox? And so is Ike's new counter from what I understand.

Let me rephrase my question:

Is this a property for all electric hitboxes? Or is it a property for all "set knockback" moves?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

All I'd assume.

Also Ikes counter is a paralysis hitbox, not electric.

 

[-RedX-]

The paralysis also lasts longer on opponents with high percentages. The attack Ike counters does not matter at all.

 

[Thani]

I just realized you are missing another Reflector. The Mii Swordfighter has a Down Special, Reversal Slash, that works like Mario/Doc's Cape, as it turns people around and reflect projectiles.

 

[Shadow Blitz]

I know that it's "no items, fox only, final destination," but would you care to test the Franklin Badge?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I know that it's "no items, fox only, final destination," but would you care to test the Franklin Badge?

1.3x

I just realized you are missing another Reflector. The Mii Swordfighter has a Down Special, Reversal Slash, that works like Mario/Doc's Cape, as it turns people around and reflect projectiles.

It's probably like the Mii Counter/Absorb where it's weight and height dependent. I don't know how I will test these.

 

[Khao]

I just realized that I never even questioned how counters work.

What exactly does the "base damage" mean? Is it the minimum damage the move can deal? Is it added to multiplied damage of the move it's countering? Or does the damage calculation work in a completely different way entirely?

 

[Starbound]

I just realized that I never even questioned how counters work.

What exactly does the "base damage" mean? Is it the minimum damage the move can deal? Is it added to multiplied damage of the move it's countering? Or does the damage calculation work in a completely different way entirely?

When you counter attack, you multiply the damage you would've taken by the multiplier (0.7, 1.2, 1.3, etc). However, if the multiplied damage is less than the base damage (7%, 10%, 13%, etc), then it will default to the base.

 

[SonicZeroX]

1.3x

It's probably like the Mii Counter/Absorb where it's weight and height dependent. I don't know how I will test these.

Maybe just test the biggest and smallest possible Miis and report the range (like 1.1-1.3x for instance)

 

[Thani]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x60Rvt4kjXg&feature=youtu.be&t=28s

Maybe it is worth doing research into Game&Watch's Oil Panic, after all. Despite the changes to the bucket, it seems even more crazy, with just one Thunder being enough to fill it up for an Instant KO move with heavy range and quick speed. Match was literally over in under 20 seconds.

 

[Lenus Altair]

Counters are done.

Does Pits Side B 2 count as a counter? (Intercept Arm)

 

[Thinkaman]

Falco Void Reflector (#3) is actually a 0.6x reflector on non-energy projectiles.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

i heard shaya say something about how the description of it was completely wrong and that it did reflect projectiles but hadnt gotten around to looking into it, so thanks for this info

Does Pits Side B 2 count as a counter? (Intercept Arm)

idk what's it do?

 

[Thinkaman]

Reflected gunmen bullets OHKO gunmen.

Void Reflector also negates certain lifespan-based entities, including Pac-Mac hydrant, Villager tree, and DHD discus.

However it does not negate Phantom, DHD can, or DHD gunman.

Thanks to Ampharos for helping me test all this.

Edit:

Void reflect also explodes Yoshi eggs (non-energy) and does not void stars (energy). WTF.

It also voids Gordos on the early part of the move, and the rest reflects them like any other hitbox.

 

[Lenus Altair]

i
idk what's it do?

Pit Readies his Upperdash Arm and stays in place waiting to be hit, then retaliates with it. Though with what little practiced I did with it, sometimes it would trigger even without an attack striking Pit, like if he was just brushed by a hitbox. It was weird.

 

[BBC7]

You forgot Mega Man's Side B 2, Skull Barrier. It reflects.

 

[Thinkaman]

As of patch 1.0.4, Falco Void Reflector no longer voids Villager tree. (any)

It still voids PAC-MAN hydrant and DHD discus.

 

[yoshi8984]

Apologies for the bump, but I would like to know - are Counters now unable to be shielded in this game?

I remember hitting a Shulk with a charge PK Flash but he used Vision. I held my Shield quickly after and apparently my shield got ignored. o.o
Don't know if it was due to PK Flash being too strong, or if that was something unique to Shulk.

 

[infomon]

I think that's specific to Shulk's counter, and maybe only while it's grounded... or something like that.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Apologies for the bump, but I would like to know - are Counters now unable to be shielded in this game?

I remember hitting a Shulk with a charge PK Flash but he used Vision. I held my Shield quickly after and apparently my shield got ignored. o.o
Don't know if it was due to PK Flash being too strong, or if that was something unique to Shulk.

I think Power Vision is unshieldable, iunno, ask @ Berserker.

 

[Berserker.]

Vision, Power vision, and Dash vision are all unblockable (Including the forward variations when you hold the control stick forward)

1. Vision (fast hit)
2. Frame 21-21: 13% 70b/94g (KO@ 112%) 50° 2.0-Hitlag Slash Unblockable
3. Frame 21-21: 10% 70b/94g (KO@ 147%) 50° 2.0-Hitlag Slash Unblockable
4. Max Damage: 13%
5. Dash Vision (fast hit)
6. Frame 13-13: 11% 70b/94g (KO@ 108%) 35° 2.0-Hitlag Slash Unblockable
7. Frame 13-13: 8% 70b/94g (KO@ 147%) 35° 2.0-Hitlag Slash Unblockable
8. Max Damage: 11%
9. Power Vision (fast hit)
10. Frame 41-44: 20% 70b/100g (KO@ 60%) 50° 2.0-Hitlag Slash Unblockable
11. Frame 41-44: 17% 70b/100g (KO@ 76%) 50° 2.0-Hitlag Slash Unblockable
12. Max Damage: 20%
13. Vision (normal hit)
14. Frame 8- 9: 10% 70b/84g (KO@ 166%) 50° 2.0-Hitlag Slash Unblockable
15. Frame 8- 9: 7% 70b/84g (KO@ 228%) 50° 2.0-Hitlag Slash Unblockable
16. Max Damage: 10%
17. Dash Vision (normal hit
18. Frame 8-11: 8% 70b/84g (KO@ 166%) 35° 2.0-Hitlag Slash Unblockable
19. Frame 8-11: 5% 70b/84g (KO@ 244%) 35° 2.0-Hitlag Slash Unblockable
20. Max Damage: 8%
21. Power Vision (normal hit)
22. Frame 12-17: 17% 70b/100g (KO@ 76%) 50° 2.0-Hitlag Slash Unblockable
23. Frame 12-17: 14% 70b/100g (KO@ 96%) 50° 2.0-Hitlag Slash Unblockable
24. Max Damage: 17%

 

[TriTails]

Um.... Rosalina's Down-b (Gravitational Pull)?

Can it count as an absorber?

 

[Masonomace]

Um.... Rosalina's Down-b (Gravitational Pull)?

Can it count as an absorber?

I would say no because her Gravitational Pull at most nullifies projectiles rather than absorbing them. As for physical items that can be picked up, GP gains ownership of those items but yeah.
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EDIT: I forgot to mention that when Gravitational Pull is "nullifying" the projectile, there's a portion of time that the projectile spun around her can damage nearby opponents around her, so it's technically a reflector I guess(?), but it deals the same damage regardless.

 

[LimitCrown]

Falco's Reflector Void custom move can reflect certain projectiles like Samus's Missiles and Villager's Lloid Rocket. The reflected projectiles deal 0.7x the damage.