Counters, Reflectors and Absorbs - WIP

KuroganeHammer · Sep 21, 2014

As many of you know a counterattack is a move in which the user retaliates after being struck.

And a reflector is using a certain move to deflect incoming projectiles. The projectile then becomes property of the reflector's user and is often redirected to hit the original attacker. Most reflectors increase the damage done by projectiles, while some also increase their speed.

Those paragraphs were stolen/rephrased from SSBWiki.

Anyway, the point of this thread is to list every standard counter and reflector along with counter damage multipliers and base damages and reflector damage multipliers and speed multipliers if I can eyeball it (but no promises).

Some of these multipliers are better described as 1.199...× but for simplicities sake I'm just gonna round up because trying to justify 0.00000000001 is not feasible and looks ugly.

COUNTERS

REFLECTORS

ABSORBS

Bedoop · Sep 21, 2014

Pocket?

KuroganeHammer · Sep 21, 2014

SmashRiver64 said:
Pocket?

Is not really an absorb or a reflector, kinda an amalgamation of both. I theorize that Villager can pocket any attack that is either reflectable OR absorbable.

Boy Jordan · Sep 21, 2014

Fox Reflector 2: 1.2x (Source)
ROB Rotor Arm 1: 1.5x (Source)
ROB Rotor Arm 2: 1.8x
ROB Rotor Arm 3: 1.5x
Dark Pit Orbiters 1: 1.5x (Source)
Dark Pit Orbiters 2: No reflection property
Dark Pit Orbiters 3: 2x
Mario Cape 1: 1.5x (Source)
Mario Cape 2: No reflection property
Mario Cape 3: 1.5x
Villager Pocket 1: 1.9x (Source)
Villager Pocket 2: 1.0x
Villager Pocket 3: 1.3x

Helping however much I can. Thanks for assembling this list. Credit for the above information goes to JoeInky, who's been doing God's work where cataloging custom moves are concerned.

ParanoidDrone · Sep 21, 2014

Aerodrome said:
Is not really an absorb or a reflector, kinda an amalgamation of both. I theorize that Villager can pocket any attack that is either reflectable OR absorbable.

It may (probably?) has damage and knockback multipliers on attacks Villager throws back out though. (Plus custom variants yay.) Rosalina's Gravitational Pull, although it can't send anything back, does transfer ownership of projectiles to her as they orbit her, which can damage the person who originally fired it. That's probably also worth verifying.

EDIT: I also recall on the Villager subforum someone having trouble pocketing PK Flash, so there may be special rules in play there.

Ganreizu · Sep 21, 2014

You forgot absorbs.

KuroganeHammer · Sep 21, 2014

Boy Jordan said:
Fox Reflector 2: 1.2x (Source)
ROB Rotor Arm 1: 1.5x (Source)
ROB Rotor Arm 2: 1.8x
ROB Rotor Arm 3: 1.5x
Dark Pit Orbiters 1: 1.5x (Source)
Dark Pit Orbiters 2: No reflection property
Dark Pit Orbiters 3: 2x
Mario Cape 1: 1.5x (Source)
Mario Cape 2: No reflection property
Mario Cape 3: 1.5x
Villager Pocket 1: 1.9x (Source)
Villager Pocket 2: No reflection property
Villager Pocket 3: 1.3x

Helping however much I can. Thanks for assembling this list. Credit for the above information goes to JoeInky, who's been doing God's work where cataloging custom moves are concerned.

Thanks for this! This will help a lot. I'll edit into the OP later.

ParanoidDrone said:
It may (probably?) has damage and knockback multipliers on attacks Villager throws back out though. (Plus custom variants yay.) Rosalina's Gravitational Pull, although it can't send anything back, does transfer ownership of projectiles to her as they orbit her, which can damage the person who originally fired it. That's probably also worth verifying.

EDIT: I also recall on the Villager subforum someone having trouble pocketing PK Flash, so there may be special rules in play there.

I'll check it all out. Thanks for the info.

Takebacker said:
You forgot absorbs.

WIP

Edit: Oh, ness main. dw I'll work more on it later and stuff.

Ganreizu · Sep 21, 2014

Aerodrome said:
WIP

Edit: Oh, ness main. dw I'll work more on it later and stuff.

I only cared about the lack of a table. I don't really care how long you take getting the information itself, lol.

Indigo Jeans · Sep 21, 2014

Aerodrome said:
Is not really an absorb or a reflector, kinda an amalgamation of both. I theorize that Villager can pocket any attack that is either reflectable OR absorbable.

This is true, though it will only absorb one unit of a multi-unit absorbable attack, like Thunder and Fludd. It also adds a multiplier to KB, though what it is I don't know and am currently testing for. Also, I'm not sure if it affects the KB of pushboxes like Fludd. That's gonna prove a bit of a challenge to test since I'd have to at least find out how much KB a single Fludd unit from Mario applies with no charge

And yeah there has been confusion regarding the Pocketability of PK Flash. I think a good way to test whether it can be pocketed or not would be to test to see if you can pocket Sheik's needles at all, or if you can pocket Din's Fire at all.

Thani · Sep 21, 2014

To be more precise, the Pocket 2 still can grab and then shoot back projectiles that count as him owning them, it just doesn't get a power boost. The multiplier is just 1.0.

KuroganeHammer · Sep 21, 2014

Thanks for the info friends, I'll work on this when I wake up again.

Running a bit low on sleep.

Chiroz · Sep 21, 2014

Aerodrome said:
As many of you know a counterattack is a move in which the user retaliates after being struck.

And a reflector is using a certain move to deflect incoming projectiles. The projectile then becomes property of the reflector's user and is often redirected to hit the original attacker. Most reflectors increase the damage done by projectiles, while some also increase their speed.

Those paragraphs were stolen/rephrased from SSBWiki.

Anyway, the point of this thread is to list every standard counter and reflector along with counter damage multipliers and base damages and reflector damage multipliers and speed multipliers if I can eyeball it (but no promises).

Some of these multipliers are better described as 1.199...× but for simplicities sake I'm just gonna round up because trying to justify 0.00000000001 is not feasible and looks ugly.

COUNTERS

Character | Base Damage | Damage Multiplier
Lucina's Counter | 8% | 1.2×
Lucina's Counter 2 | 4% | 0.7×
Lucina's Counter 3 | 6% | 1.4×
Marth's Counter | 8% | 1.2×
Marth's Counter 2 |
Marth's Counter 3 |
Ike's Counter | 10% | 1.2×
Ike's Counter 2 |
Ike's Counter 3 |
Shulk's Vision | 7%, 10% or 13% | 1.3×
Shulk's Vision 2 |
Shulk's Vision 3 |
Little Mac's Slip Counter | 10% | 1.3×
Little Mac's Slip Counter 2 |
Little Mac's Slip Counter 3 |
Mii Fighter's Blade Counter | Weight Dependent | Weight Dependent
Palutena's Counter | 10% | 1.3×

REFLECTORS

Character | Damage Multiplier | Speed Multiplier
Cape | 1.5× | ×
Cape 2 | × | ×
Cape 3 | × | ×
Nayru's Love | 1.25× | ×
Nayru's Love 2 | × | ×
Pit's Guardian Orbitars | × | ×
Pit's Guardian Orbitars 2 | × | ×
Pit's Guardian Orbitars 3 | × | ×
Reflect Barrier | 1.17× | ×
Fox's Reflector | 1.4× | ×
Fox's Reflector 2 | no ****ing idea× | ×
Fox's Reflector 3 | 2.1× | ×
Falco's Reflector | × | ×
Falco's Reflector 2 | × | ×
Falco's Reflector 3 | × | ×
Rotor Arm | × | ×
Rotor Arm 2 | × | ×
Rotor Arm 3 | × | ×
Ness Forward Smash | × | ×
Super Sheet | × | ×
Super Sheet 2 | × | ×
Super Sheet 3 | × | ×
Dark Pit's Guardian Orbitars | × | ×
Dark Pit's Guardian Orbitars 2 | × | ×
Dark Pit's Guardian Orbitars 3 | × | ×

Why were pokemons forgotten?

(Lucario, Greninja aren't there).

Indigo Jeans · Sep 21, 2014

Raykz said:
Why were pokemons forgotten? (Lucario, Greninja aren't there).

I think its because Greninja and Lucario's "counterattacks" aren't damage-dependent. They have their own set damage, but the hitbox only activates under certain conditions (in this case, being attacked during the counter window).

Meanwhile counters like Lucina's and Little Mac's are damage dependent. They don't have set damage because it scales with the amount that the opponent would have dealt.

tldr Lucario and Greninja's counters' damage outputs are independent of the countered attack's damage output, while everyone else's have direct relationships (correct me if I'm wrong, aerodrome).

Also scratch the thing about finding out the amount of KB applied by 1 Fludd unit, I'm pretty sure they all apply the same amount of KB in a use of the move, but its not additive. That's how the Villager's watering can works anyway.

Chiroz · Sep 21, 2014

Indigo Jeans said:
I think its because Greninja and Lucario's "counterattacks" aren't damage-dependent. They have their own set damage, but the hitbox only activates under certain conditions (in this case, being attacked during the counter window).

Meanwhile counters like Lucina's and Little Mac's are damage dependent. They don't have set damage because it scales with the amount that the opponent would have dealt.

tldr Lucario and Greninja's counters' damage outputs are independent of the countered attack's damage output, while everyone else's have direct relationships (correct me if I'm wrong, aerodrome).

Also scratch the thing about finding out the amount of KB applied by 1 Fludd unit, I'm pretty sure they all apply the same amount of KB in a use of the move, but its not additive. That's how the Villager's watering can works anyway.

Has that been tested for this game though? Has Greninja been tested or was it assumed to work just like Lucario's?

Rakurai · Sep 21, 2014

I believe Greninja's Substitute 3 might get stronger based on the damage of the attack being countered, as it didn't always do 15% in training mode when I saw it being tested on a stream.

The normal version definitely deals fixed damage, though.

Indigo Jeans · Sep 21, 2014

Judging by NinjaLink's showcase video, none of Substitute's variations have scaling damage. I could be wrong, but I think its a relatively safe assumption and would explain the lack of inclusion here.

KuroganeHammer · Sep 21, 2014

...

Actually I forgot Frog and Lucario had counters. :3

Indigo Jeans · Sep 21, 2014

tsk tsk (´･ω･`)

I'm gonna risk a bit of my reputation anyway and say that I still think Lucario and Greninja's default counters have set damage

Chiroz · Sep 21, 2014

Indigo Jeans said:
Judging by NinjaLink's showcase video, none of Substitute's variations have scaling damage. I could be wrong, but I think its a relatively safe assumption and would explain the lack of inclusion here.

Why does the counter deal 17% at 12:55 instead of 15% like the other 13 counter he had done so far? It even blocked the same exact attack (fireball) yet it did an extra 2%.

It also deals 17% at 13:15 but Mario is still using fireball.

There is certainly a way to make it deal more damage but it doesn't seem to be attack based. Is it direction based?

It deals 18% at 13:28 when it blocks a different move.

All of those are using Substitute 3.

KuroganeHammer · Sep 21, 2014

Just playing with Substitute now,

It does 2% less damage when you execute it with a side command and I think the 14% up and down command has a 13% sourspot.

This is for default Substitute.

Chiroz · Sep 21, 2014

Aerodrome said:
Just playing with Substitute now,

It does 2% less damage when you execute it with a side command and I think the 14% up and down command has a 13% sourspot.

This is for default Substitute.

So it deals more damage depending on which direction you do it from basically? Ok, I get it.

Does it also deal more knockback, or is it only damage?

KuroganeHammer · Sep 21, 2014

Knockback's main calculation is damage the move deals, so yes, the 14% hits probably deal more knockback than the other two hits.

Chiroz · Sep 21, 2014

Aerodrome said:
Knockback's main calculation is damage the move deals, so yes, the 14% hits probably deal more knockback than the other two hits.

Thanks for the info.

BTW Greninja Substitute 3 seems to be 15% from sides, 17% diagonal and 18% vertical from what I can tell from NinjaLink's video.

KuroganeHammer · Sep 21, 2014

oh maybe i did a diagonal one and that triggered a 13% hit

doesnt really matter, greninja's counter sucks

Chiroz · Sep 21, 2014

Indigo Jeans said:
I think its because Greninja and Lucario's "counterattacks" aren't damage-dependent. They have their own set damage, but the hitbox only activates under certain conditions (in this case, being attacked during the counter window).

Meanwhile counters like Lucina's and Little Mac's are damage dependent. They don't have set damage because it scales with the amount that the opponent would have dealt.

tldr Lucario and Greninja's counters' damage outputs are independent of the countered attack's damage output, while everyone else's have direct relationships (correct me if I'm wrong, aerodrome).

Also scratch the thing about finding out the amount of KB applied by 1 Fludd unit, I'm pretty sure they all apply the same amount of KB in a use of the move, but its not additive. That's how the Villager's watering can works anyway.

Greninja's Up-B actually deals 2% damage per water "blob" and it throws 4 blobs (2 per direction). It's still a windbox though. Would that make the knockback greater than Mario's FLUDD?

Aerodrome said:
oh maybe i did a diagonal one and that triggered a 13% hit

doesnt really matter, greninja's counter sucks

Substitute 3 can serve as his best kill move. Which is kind of sad, lol.

Wow, Lucario gains almost triple damage with aura? That's insane.

KuroganeHammer · Sep 21, 2014

thats just in training mode, so unless stocks dont affect aura, then its not min/max

its also probably the reason it doesnt scale, getting hit by a 60%counter is lame

Chiroz · Sep 21, 2014

Aerodrome said:
thats just in training mode, so unless stocks dont affect aura, then its not min/max

Just spawn a smash ball, no? Mega Lucario is supposed to just be Lucario on max aura according to Sakurai's POTD description.

KuroganeHammer · Sep 21, 2014

HUH

I'll give it a try.

Thinkaman · Sep 21, 2014

I'm convinced that Aerodrome is currently the single best poster in the Smash community in this pre-release era. You have a complete monopoly on the most interesting threads with the best data.

Chiroz · Sep 21, 2014

Thinkaman said:
I'm convinced that Aerodrome is currently the single best poster in the Smash community in this pre-release era. You have a complete monopoly on the most interesting threads with the best data.

He has basically given us all the numbers in everything we can think of. I really appreciate his effort.

KuroganeHammer · Sep 21, 2014

I AM SACRIFICING THE 3 WEEKS I HAVE TO GET RLY GOOD AND CRUSH MY LOCAL SCENE FOR SCIENCE AND ALL OF YOU <3

On that note I've almost run out of moves to test, I will have to go unlock some more.

Chiroz · Sep 21, 2014

Aerodrome said:
I AM SACRIFICING THE 3 WEEKS I HAVE TO GET RLY GOOD AND CRUSH MY LOCAL SCENE FOR SCIENCE AND ALL OF YOU <3

On that note I've almost run out of moves to test, I will have to go unlock some more.

Was 18.7% Lucario's max aura? Stocks don't matter anymore?

KuroganeHammer · Sep 21, 2014

Raykz said:
Was 18.7% Lucario's max aura? Stocks don't matter anymore?

I just did 19% with mega lucario

Edit: The AI keeps running away from me

SamuraiPanda · Sep 21, 2014

Aerodrome, wonderful data. Love lookin' at numbers.

I heard Dark Pit's side B can reflect projectiles at the startup, if that's worth adding to your list.

Chiroz · Sep 21, 2014

SamuraiPanda said:
Aerodrome, wonderful data. Love lookin' at numbers.

I heard Dark Pit's side B can reflect projectiles at the startup, if that's worth adding to your list.

Can Pit reflect too or is that unique to Dark Pit?

SamuraiPanda · Sep 21, 2014

Raykz said:
Can Pit reflect too or is that unique to Dark Pit?

No idea just going off what I read in another thread.

KuroganeHammer · Sep 21, 2014

Seems to be deflection like Confusion rather than actual reflection.

Meru. · Sep 21, 2014

Peach has a counter too (Toad). I'm not sure whether it's necessary to put in the table though since its damage doesn't scale ~~and it sucks anyway.~~

Indigo Jeans · Sep 21, 2014

Aerodrome said:
Just playing with Substitute now,

It does 2% less damage when you execute it with a side command and I think the 14% up and down command has a 13% sourspot.

This is for default Substitute.

So... Greninja's counter doesn't scale, and Lucario's scaling is only aura-dependent?

Raykz said:
Greninja's Up-B actually deals 2% damage per water "blob" and it throws 4 blobs (2 per direction). It's still a windbox though. Would that make the knockback greater than Mario's FLUDD?

I don't know the specifics of how Greninja's Hydro Pump would work, but I think only one hitbox would be applied at a time; either the damaging hitbox or the pushing hitbox. So it might be, say, a damaging hitbox first, and the KB launches the opponent into the pushing hitbox. Also, pushing hitboxes seem to have weight-dependent set knockback. Villager's watering can applies 22 units of KB to a character with a weight value of 98 at 0% and 300%, and Mario's fully charged FLUDD applies 38 units of KB to a character with a weight value of 98 at 0% and 300%. I don't remember any pushing hitboxes in Brawl being different.

So whether or not Hydro Pump's pushing hitbox applies more knockback than FLUDD on any one weight value is wholly dependent on the move's BKB.

Edit: for reference, the watering can applies 24 KB to Pikachu, 22 KB to Mario, and 21 KB to Link, with all characters at 0%. Pushing hitboxes don't stale since they have set knockback so

JamietheAuraUser · Sep 21, 2014

Indigo Jeans said:
I don't know the specifics of how Greninja's Hydro Pump would work, but I think only one hitbox would be applied at a time; either the damaging hitbox or the pushing hitbox. So it might be, say, a damaging hitbox first, and the KB launches the opponent into the pushing hitbox. Also, pushing hitboxes seem to have weight-dependent set knockback. Villager's watering can applies 22 units of KB to a character with a weight value of 98 at 0% and 300%, and Mario's fully charged FLUDD applies 38 units of KB to a character with a weight value of 98 at 0% and 300%. I don't remember any pushing hitboxes in Brawl being different.

So whether or not Hydro Pump's pushing hitbox applies more knockback than FLUDD on any one weight value is wholly dependent on the move's BKB.

Edit: for reference, the watering can applies 24 KB to Pikachu, 22 KB to Mario, and 21 KB to Link, with all characters at 0%. Pushing hitboxes don't stale since they have set knockback so

Actually, it's entirely possible to have a pushing hitbox deal damage. Example: Mii Gunner's Neutral Special 2, Laser Blaze. It does non-flinching damage like Fox's Blaster, but also very slightly pushes the opponent back.

Counters, Reflectors and Absorbs - WIP

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