Counters, Reflectors and Absorbs - WIP

[Masonomace]

After some Training Mode labbing, Mii Swordfighter's Reversal Rainbow Slash deals 6% base damage, & the reflected projectiles deal 1.5x more damage(?). (Tested with Samus' Missiles)

 

[Zodiacx10]

where is G&W's bucket? (oil panic)

 

[Thinkaman]

@ KuroganeHammer please update op with full reflector data:

Note: Reflectors generally fail to reflect any projectile that does 50.0% or more.

• 2.1x Fox Amplifying Reflector
• 2.0x (Dark) Pit Amplifying Orbitars (safe on break; reflects projectile without changing ownership, but move becomes unusable for a period)
• 2.0x Ness F-Smash
• 1.9x Villager Pocket (resets any previous reflect multipliers)
• 1.8x R.O.B. Reflector Arm
• 1.5x (Dark) Pit Guardian Orbitars (safe on break; reflects projectile without changing ownership, but move becomes unusable for a period)
• 1.5x (Dr.) Mario Cape (default or Gust)
• 1.5x R.O.B. Rotor Arm (default or Backwards)
• 1.5x Mii Swordfighter Rainbow Slash
• 1.4x Fox Reflector (default or Big)
• 1.4x Mii Gunner Echo Reflector
• 1.4x Mewtwo Confusion
• 1.3x Villager Pocket Plus (resets any previous reflect multipliers)
• 1.25x Nayru's Love (default or Rejection)
• 1.2x Falco Reflector
• 1.2x Mega Man Skull Barrier (can only reflect up to 25% instead of 50%)
• 1.17x Palutena Reflect Barrier
• 1.0x Falco Accele-Reflector (increases projectile speed significantly)
• 1.0x Villager Garden (resets any previous reflect multipliers)
• 0.75 Falco Reflector Void (physical projectiles only; energy projectiles are absorbed)

 

[ParanoidDrone]

@ Thinkaman Two small questions:

How are the Orbitars safe on break if the projectile doesn't change ownership?

Does Pocket's "reset multiplier" effect let Villager catch projectiles that have been amplified to do more than 50%?

 

[Thinkaman]

How are the Orbitars safe on break if the projectile doesn't change ownership?

It's like Perfect Shielding, or Melee Mewtwo Confusion: It changes the trajectory of the projectile (and avoids being hit by it), but doesn't actually change ownership of the article. It still belongs to the creator, they will still get KO and damage credit for it if it hits someone else, and they cannot be hit by it themselves.

Does Pocket's "reset multiplier" effect let Villager catch projectiles that have been amplified to do more than 50%?

Yes.[/quote]

 

[ParanoidDrone]

It's like Perfect Shielding, or Melee Mewtwo Confusion: It changes the trajectory of the projectile (and avoids being hit by it), but doesn't actually change ownership of the article. It still belongs to the creator, they will still get KO and damage credit for it if it hits someone else, and they cannot be hit by it themselves.

I guess I should have clarified. I thought if the Orbitars were broken then Pit/Pittoo were stuck in a vaguely laggy animation while they recovered. Was I mistaken?

 

[Kurogal]

I guess I should have clarified. I thought if the Orbitars were broken then Pit/Pittoo were stuck in a vaguely laggy animation while they recovered. Was I mistaken?

I just quickly checked this, Pit's normal Orbitars, it at least when it's broken by stuff like Ganon's Warlock Punch and Home-Run Bat Smash Attacks, actually seems to suffer no real lag, and might even actually even recover slightly faster than normal when they're broken.

 

[ぱみゅ]

So, uhm, relevant: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gorRcgaxQ-4&feature=youtu.be

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Not relevant actually.

Every reflector has a 50% threshold to break except Ness and Lucas' forward smash. They both have an 80% threshold to break.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Well, a visual example never is too much :¨P

btw, in that video, Nayru's Love reflected 4 times and break for the 5th one, that would mean that the 4th one resisted 61% damage (assuming they all were the "falling" hitbox that deals 25% damage).

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I dunno. Nayru's is 50% though.

 

[Kofu]

It's possible Timber was stale, too.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Yeah, we don't really know because the creators of that video were MORONIC enough to hide damage percents.

 

[cFive]

Yeah, we don't really know because the creators of that video were MORONIC enough to hide damage percents.

yeeah.. sorry bout that
we realized midway in that it might have been better showing the %... too lazy to redo it tho^^

nice thread tho, its gonna help me out a bit for our next vid :D

 

[divade]

Appreciate the work guys!

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Mr. Game & Watch's Oil Panic has a 2.8x damage multiplier, with a maximum damage output of 60%. Oil Panic 2 is 2.0x with maximum of 24%. Oil Panic 3 is 2.5x with maximum of 45%. Also, Ness' PSI magnet 2 does not absorb, and Magnet 3 has 1.2x heal multiplier.

 

[Masonomace]

So at this point, I've tested Shulk's Vision counter variants enough to know that they're super weird. After I get home, I wanna see if other counters act the same way like Shulk's counters or not because again, super weird.

If Vision counters a move that deals ~6.1666665% or more, then that damage becomes Vision's damage & applies the 1.3x multiplier. A move that deals less than that ^ will apply the regular 10% or forwarded 13% sweetspot hitbox of the Vision counterattack. If the damage is higher than (let's just say 6.2% to humor it), then not only does it apply the 1.3x multiplier but the forwarded damage becomes the same damage as the regular counter. Forwarded has more KBG though, so cool.

If any other counters work like this, then that'd be interesting. Unless they do & I never knew all along since Melee, then I'm dip n slip (dumb).

 

[Masonomace]

Okay so, I've come to realize that a character's counter move has a damage threshold. This threshold signifies when a character's counter no longer deals the base damage & then applies that countered move's damage & the counter's multiplier. So. . .

DISCLAIMER: Not 100% correct, but pretty close.

Both Lucina & Marth's Counter deal 8% base damage normally, but if the move deals ~7.5% damage or higher, then their 1.2x multiplier applies.

Ike's Counter deals 10% base damage normally, but if the move deals ~9.166666664% or higher, then the 1.2x multiplier applies.

Shulk's Vision counter deals 10% base damage with the regular attack or 13% base damage with the Forwarded counter, but if the move deals ~6.166666665% or higher, then the 1.3x multiplier applies & both the regular & Forwarded version deal the same damage after passing this threshold.

Both Little Mac's Slip Counter & Palutena's Counter deal 10% base damage normally, but if the move deals ~8.466666664% or higher, then their 1.3x multiplier applies.

EDIT: I do not know how I would figure out the threshold for Mii Swordfighter's Blade Counter due to the weight-dependent factor as of now before testing it. So eh I guess.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

That's why the Base Damage is in the OP.

 

[Masonomace]

I like base damages, but knowing the exact threshold helps it become clear when & why the counter's multiplier gets applied to the counter's damage calculations. It finally makes sense to me now why Shulk's Vision countering basic jabs or a weak tilt with a 13% base Forwarded Vision was devastating, yet when you counter a move dealing a damage in the 6.2 - 9.5% range, your Forwarded Vision you thought would kill ends up with the opponent surviving since the damage became less than 13%.

Basically I'd like to see threshold percents for the counters in the table, but it could just be me. Some are useful to know while others are just "lol not really", but eh your call. Oh & could there be some sort of "max reflected damage" column for Reflectors?

 

[Masonomace]

So from some item-testing, I realized that Home-Run Bat has a reflect ability. The frame window in question after my testing tells me that the window is frame 51-62, & the reflect multiplier is ~2.0x. So yeah, that's educational.

Corrin's patched Counter Surge now can be properly tested in Training Mode. Pre-patch I thought that I recall not being able to test it, but now it noticeably takes a move that deals ~9.2% damage or higher to have Corrin's Counter Surge apply the multiplier to the countered move's damage (similar to Shulk). It could be lower, but I can't find anything noticeable. 9.2 x 1.2 = 11.04, so it would show up on the damage counter as 11% dealt. Otherwise, Corrin's Counter Surge deals 10% base damage & apparently the counter multiplier is 1.2x.

 

[Darkpit54]

I might have just missed it, but what about Roy?

 

[Masonomace]

I might have just missed it, but what about Roy?

Roy's counter in Training Mode apparently deals ~8% base damage. When I checked the counter scaling, I used Lucario's Aura mechanic to help find a closer damage value that causes his Counter base damage to change into the countered move's damage while applying the multiplier (1.35x). By watching the damages in Training Mode, the move has to be dealing around ~6.7% for Roy's Counter to apply that move's damage including the multiplier. Otherwise, any weak attack countered deals the ~8% base damage.

Spoiler: math

If the move dealt ~5.92%, then it wouldn't deal ~8% if we applied the 1.35x multiplier. A move has to deal at least ~5.93% or higher if the counter is to visually deal ~8%. But even then, the damage could be higher & Roy's Counter could still be dealing the base ~8%.

That said, a move that deals 6% or higher could be under suspicion, but I cannot think of a way for it to be proven otherwise with Training Mode. Although, using Lucario's Aura mechanic & Roy's 1.35x multiplier, I have Lucario at 101% doing a DTilt. At this percent, Lucario's DTilt deals ~5.904166667%, so multiply that by 1.35x & you get ~7.970625%. So by this, at least we know that a weak move dealing anything from 0 - 5.92% is going to apply Roy's Counter base damage. It could be higher, but like I said, I can't prove or disprove it until Lucario's at 90% Aura using FAir.

90% Lucario using FAir on Roy's counter window, this move deals ~6.7%. 6.7 x 1.35 = 9.045%. So at least that's a noticeable change.

 

[Darkpit54]

Ok. Thank you!