Convinced now that Yoshi can be playable against all chars

[PRiDE]

We have had the game for a while now and I just want to quickly post my thoughts on Yoshi. Again these findings are based on playing some of the east coast's top brawl players in OFFLINE real tournaments. NJ, NYC, and PA.

Matches in Yoshi favor - Doesn't mean the match is any easier.. Just that Yoshi has the slight advantage. Also I am basing these solely on which chars I can beat consistently (at real life tournaments) and which chars I lose to consistently.

Marth - Marth loves eggs eats them every match.

Meta Knight - Still extremely hard but definately in our favor now using the right Yoshi play style.

Snake - I think Yoshi is one of Snakes hardest match ups. Yoshi is to heavy to be killed by Snakes tilts and he is way faster then snake is, making combos easier to pull off.

Falco - Easy if you avoid his grabs and forward smashes.. Eggs and bair up smash combos are the best on him.

Matches not in favor of Yoshi

DDD - Chain still destroys any Yoshi game you can bring. You have to play perfectly this match, try not to get hit, and do lots of egg grabs to win. Any full on melee attack will result in a chain grab across the board if your playing a Smart DDD.

Wolf - UGH. Although he is ten times easier off line then he is on, he still gives me so much problems. I can never seem to kill him and I am constantly getting killed by down smash. Egg barages are pointless because he can just reflect them 2x the speed in your face. No getting near him cause his smash attacks have insane range and priority. No edge game cause his recovery has to much priority and is insanely fast.

Zelda - Up smash has the most ******** hit box ever. Egg reflection, camping, not a fun match. Yesterday I beat one and lost to one, and both matches were one of the hardest I ever had to fight.

Game and Watch - THis guy is , so so. He is easy if you play your egg camping pivot grab game correctly. But as soon as he figures out this strat he can evade it easily and things become hard. THe turtle has so much priority. The up a has sooo much priority.


I am torn about DK, Fox, and PT. All my matches seem to be pretty close and if I lost it was because of me messing up. Olimar for some reason, a GOOD Olimar, gave me insane trouble yesterday. I lost 0-2 to a crazy Olimar in my pools, and then almost lost to another one in the tournament. >_> Any help on this guy (and please don't gimp him on recovery, because good olimars avoid being off the edge as much as possible and have ways of forcing u off the edge,) would be great.

I really think Yoshi has a shot now at doing really well in off line tourns. I can finally get Mew 2 Kings DDD down to one stock. m2k by the way has won every brawl singles and team tournament that I have been to with him so he is still godly.

Also I am finally getting myself into the team scene and I want to start thinking of good team strats Yoshi has. woot for summer!

 

[Meta Dude]

i agree with all of that, except i think DDD is more neutral than in his favor. but cg's blow hard, and i've never faced a ddd like m2k.

i've played a good fox and it's not easy, but you have to anticipate what he might do cause he's friggin quick. pivot grabs and bair (defensively or as an approach) work good. i think if both players know their character very well it's again neutral.

 

[PRiDE]

You know I used to think DDD was a neutral battle but I realized I was just playing Average DDD's. A DDD that knows what he is doing is crazy good against Yoshi.. Vex, M2k, and atmosk come to mind..

 

[Miamisportsfan45]

I personally do think that Yoshi is playable against any other character. However, the matchups aren't always good, and it varies on what your opponent does and how you counter, as well as what you do and how they counter. Matchups are never good, but anything can happen and that lies in control of the user. At least this is my philosophy anyway.

 

[doom dragon 105]

i agree exept for marth as an easy match up

 

[DarkLeviathan89]

I don't get to play many tournament players nowadays, but I agree that Zelda is not a matchup in Yoshi's favor. I also agree that Snake is not too bad of a matchup against Yoshi, thanks to as you said, Yoshi's weight and his possible combos against him. I wouldn't say that Yoshi has an advantage over Snake, but I don't think it's one sided.

As for Olimar, his aerials seem to outprioritze me so I hesitate to edgeguard Olimars anyway. Other than that, I would try to use eggs a lot, and if getting him off the edge is a problem, I would guess a fresh up smash/ up air would be best.

 

[Deleted member]

Olimar is rly easy. WTF since when do u think yoshi can beat MK and snake. What has happened to this world. Also falco beats yoshi, SHDL + cgs to DLX cancels and freakin ftilt is really gay. If they just camp, it can force u to approach without a bair, and then he eats u.

 

[Furbs]

Yoshi can be playable against all charcters, but you're putting an unfair bias on some of his worst matchups. Either that or you've been playing some pretty crappy Marth/Falco/Snakes. :/, but please keep in mind the better player is typically the one that wins, not the character alone.



Marth - Marth loves eggs eats them every match.

There is no way the yoshi has a slight advantage over marth. possibly a neutral but nothing HUGE, just because yoshi can spam eggs doesn't mean marth will sit there all match and take it. A smart marth will still be able to approach a yoshi spamming eggs, and they aren't that hard to avoid.

- Marth has better range and priority on his moves
- Marths' tipper can K.O. yoshi at around 80%
- Marth can punish the crap out of yoshi for rolling, his B can punch it, and Side B can put too much pressure on yoshi's shield, forcing yoshi to take the hit and get combo'd


Snake - I think Yoshi is one of Snakes hardest match ups. Yoshi is to heavy to be killed by Snakes tilts and he is way faster then snake is, making combos easier to pull off.

Snakes tilts kill EVERYONE!!

- Snake has way better projectiles than yoshi
- Snake can set up the stage forcing yoshi into awkward approaches.
- Snake is ridiculously heavy, and it's already hard for yoshi to get kills (his smashes are average at best)
- Snake can out camp yoshi, and can edgeguard yoshi very well.

Falco - Easy if you avoid his grabs and forward smashes.. Eggs and bair up smash combos are the best on him.

- Rarely will you be able to pull off an egg on falco, his blaster is faster, and when you put space between falco and his target a good faloc player will start spamming them, forcing you to approach
- Telling someone not to get grabbed in brawl is like telling someone to play jump rope without jumping, it's an unavoidable part of the game. With the importance placed on shielding it's pretty easy to get grabbed.
- falcos lasers and side b can wreck yoshi's approach.

 

[bigman40]

You forgot Pika as a bad matchup....

 

[PRiDE]

lol poor Pika. I totally did. I got to run to work but Furbs I shall be commenting!

 

[PRiDE]

Furbs. Those match ups were my experience with GOOD players using specific chars. And when I say has the advantage (in my opinion) I mean that I do not have to work as hard to beat them. With wolf I have to put 101% into the match to even come close to winning (and I NEVER do) but with Snake and Marth I can actually have fun and still pull off a win not playing as hard.

Marth cant handle eggs and pivot grabs. The only way he can KILL yoshi is by tipping and that rarely happens if you space yoruself correcty. Compared to other characters Martha is a very easy fight.

Snakes tilts are so avoidable and so predictable. Avoid them and hes easy. (again by easy I mean it is a easier battle then verse a wolf or chain grabbing ddd and by chain grabbing ddd I mean m2ks ddd lolol) .


Pika and Kirby need to be added to the disadvantage list.. Kirby is so small and quick I cant egg him or grab him fast enough and pika out prioritizes every move. I hate playing both..

But Wolf is by far the worst. especially online.

 

[Deleted member]

Heres mine:

Good:

Olimar: Olimar is pretty easy, bair approach hits his blindspot, and if he starts up bing, u can just SH air dodge, and hit him in his lag of his up b. Side b eats him as long as ur not approching with it, it destroys pikmen and outpriotizes or clanks with most of his moves. Once hes off the edge, he should be dead, and dtilt can help u set up for a gimp.

Sonic:

Uhh sonic is really annoying, but he cant kill for his life, and u can. The key to this matchup is keeping the pressure on, sonic cant really deal with it, pivot grab him when u can, ur uair outprioritizes his dair. Dont try and do anything fancy while recovering, getting gimped by sonic sucks because he really cant kill u otherwise.

Kirby: Yoshi beats kirby. Lots of grabs and eggs and not getting daired offstage.

C Falcon: Falcon sucks, nuff said. Also, eggs can hurt falcon alot, u can gimp his recovery very easily with dairs, ur bair beats his uair. Watch for dair to knee, that hurts.

Ganny: Play pride with ganny. Nuff said. Cgs + eggs = annoying as hell!

Zelda: She cant camp u, u cant camp her. DIing out of smashes is easier said than done, but u can smash out of both of them (keep tapping out, it works). She can space fairs or bairs, but if u know the sweetspot, its not that hard to dodge them (although i do get occasionally killed by them which sucks cuz they kill at like 80%). Her aerial game is not good, once shes in the air u can do some good damage. Im not sure if this should be an even matchup or advanteous to yoshi.

Even matchups:

Bowser: He's really really powerful. Jab to dtilt is annoying. Lots of eggs, dont attack his shield with nairs, and only with bairs if u can space it well cuz up b outta shield is still too good. U can play defensive and wear down his shield with eggs, then u can bair to shield stab.

DK: I dont really know, ive beaten them in tournies, ive beaten ripples online, i lost to axelol's, but it seems like yoshi has the advantage while playing defensive, but walk to ftilt sorta owns yoshi. Also DK is really good at edgeguarding(or axelol is tooo good, i dunno, probably both).


Shiek: Shiek can combo better than u, plus needles are very good at being annoying and racking up damage, but shiek has more trouble killing than u, and Yoshi's no slouch at comboing either.

Wario: Im still not sure if the infinate exists or not, but u can grab release to uair anyways. His aerial priority is rediculous, and hes very hard to read, but eggs can help limit his movement options and make him easier to hit. Fair to bite is really annoying and yoshi's too slow to shield grab it. Ur bair beats his fair though, which is very useful. Also, PROTECT HIS BIKE. You want it to be on stage so if u hit him off, he cant use it.

Lucas: Cgs are fun.
Bad:

Mk: I dunno, i think its bad.

Snake: Again, he can sorta walk towards u and u cant do anything, but i havent played any good snakes in a while, maybe ill rethink this.

Falco: Alot harder than wolf. Grabs + lasers +falco is a beast at comboing=death.

Wolf: Still hard, shine can interrupt stuff, fsmash is gay (although i predict as we get more used to the game, we'll be better at countering it), bair is rediculous, laser is annoying. Hes good, but if hes not spamming, i dont have as much trouble.

Peach: From melee to brawl, peach is still very good at killing yoshi. Fair autocancels, turnips are still good, dair combos into nair, then they can glide toss up throw a turnip, and if u dodge that u get usmashed by the 4th strongest usmash in the game x_x U get beaten in the air, while on the ground her air game beats u down, and she is decent at camping. I dont like peach at all.

Ness: Ness is really really hard. If u get side bd whille recovering, ur helpless too his spike (i must admit, side b to spike is the coolest thing ever). His fair is very prioritastic, and his bair kills. Ur ground game is a little bit stronger than his, but his dash attack is very good, and unfortunately u cant cg ness like u can lucas.

Uhh that was a little long =/

 

[SOVAman]

wolf gives me alot of trouble

 

[Mr. Escalator]

A fight with Zelda is a fight that you're going to lose ;-;
****it Yoshi!
Well, I have G&W to deal with her.

I find I have a really easy time vs Bowser, though.

 

[ducky285]

A few short comments on matchups based on some good ol' fashioned theory fighter. I'm basing this off of Yoshi's general weaknesses (for example, lack of aerial priority, which is why Wario is listed as a bad matchup) combined with other character's strengths. I don't have the experience to make a detailed matchup list but this is the impression I get from simply assessing each matchup individually.

Mario - Not hard at all
DK - Bad
Link - Annoying
Samus - Not bad
ZSS - A lot worse than Samus
Kirby - Annoying, but not too bad
Fox - Meh
Pikachu - UGH
Marth - DOUBLE UGH
G&W - Pretty bad
Luigi - A bit harder than Mario
Diddy - Bad
Zelda - Terrible
Sheik - Not so bad
Pit - Not terribly hard
Meta Knight - Manageable but can be terrible if you don't know what you're doing or the MK is REALLY good.
Falco - Ridiculously bad
Pokemon Trainer - Squirtle is annoying, the other two are manageable
Ike - A good Ike is a tough match
Snake - BAD
Peach - Not too bad
Yoshi - IT'S LIKE THEY'RE TWINS
Ganondorf - Piece of cake, but don't underestimate him. Ganon can be a beast given a good player.
Ice Climbers - Chaingrabs x_x
Dedede - Really bad
Wolf - Awful
Lucario - Not bad if you kill him quickly
Ness - Really annoying...
Sonic - Easy as pie
Bowser - About even, maybe slightly in Yoshi's favor.
Wario - Pretty freakin' bad
Toon Link - More annoying than Link
R.O.B. - Bad
Olimar - Pretty good as long as you don't let him aerial you to death.
Captain Falcon - Easy
Jigglypuff - Tough because of her air game. Keep her grounded and this is cake.
Lucas - Pretty bad

I welcome intelligent discussion should anyone disagree.

 

[Miamisportsfan45]

A fight with Zelda is a fight that you're going to lose ;-;
****it Yoshi!
Well, I have G&W to deal with her.

I find I have a really easy time vs Bowser, though.

I tend to have realized this myself, although, Yoshi mind games really toys with the timing of Zelda's moves and easily sets up counters from my own experience. Not just that, but if you can time your shield and bypass her projectiles, or get out of range, even, you're set. So I disagree. A smart Yoshi player will find a solution around Zelda, though, no doubt it'll be hard to pull off.

 

[Furbs]

i do agree that marth and snake can be easier than wolf, but they're still really tough :'(

snakes tilts are NOT predictable! they come out insanely fast and have ridiculous range! and tilts although good isnt snakes only means of getting K.O.'s either

marth could MAYBE be an even match-up, yoshi does have eggs but they arc so its pretty easy to roll past them/shield them. also tippers aren't the only thing marth has in terms of K.O. power, up-b kills' dsmash kills, dair and fair kill, and how can anyone honestly ignore the fact that marth can punish yoshi out of his shield? marth is a very pressure oriented character and yoshi's defensive game is rather lackluster

 

[Shiri]

Furbs, I think what people are saying is that Snake's tilts are predictable because of the playstyle.

For example, you can guess with reasonable confidence when Snake will forward tilt or up tilt. Prediction doesn't really entail spotting the move as it's coming out and doing something to counter it; prediction is all about knowing what the given opponent will do in the given circumstances.

Also, I have to agree that the Marth matchup isn't advantaged for Yoshi anymore. Whether it's even or not I haven't decided, but all I care about is that I can't be lazy and forward smash everything and that upsets me.

>_<

That is my pouty face.

 

[Furbs]

lol nvm the snake thing then,
although i found that yoshi's bair can go through mortars and nades, which although isn't game breaking can really help yoshi in this matchup

 

[PRiDE]

I am like 0-51 againt wolf. no lie. something is wrong here.

 

[bigman40]

The spamming wolf is managable to me. I'm like 2-4 against them. All I can say is that the better timing on your spotdodges, the more you'll be able to counter them. Also, A platformed stage is a good counter to the lazer spam.

 

[Depster]

What are you guys thinking? Yoshi owns wario! A good Wario will abuse his Dair, and Yoshi has 4 moves that outprioritize it! Grab, Jab (yes, the AA combo owns wario), Usmash KILLS it, and Bair goes right through it.

 

[Shiri]

I hate to outwardly disagree with you, but I have to disagree.

The problem with those moves you listed is that the way in which Wario utilizes his down air renders those moves worthless against it. The typical air-controlled down air from Wario is spaced such that jabs will not reach it and upsmash could beat it, but isn't really fast enough. The grab would for sure have to be a pivot in order to get it out fast enough and even then, you'd have to run and then turn to pivot, taking up time you might not have. Back air does beat it, but again, you might not always have time to turn, jump, and pull it out.

While Wario does tend to abuse down air, that's not the only weapon he has to fight against Yoshi (although it's all he needs against most characters). His aerial control is crazy and allows for some pretty amazing strings of attacks in the air and if Yoshi can't stop whatever Wario's tossing at him with neutral air or intelligent airdodge spam, then Yoshi's pretty screwed until he gets back onto solid ground. Yoshi does have more KO power for sure, but Wario has so many more ways of employing the fewer options he has.

 

[Gindler]

i think I'm 4-4 against wolfs, the ones I've beaten though tend to spam Fsmash Dsmash and laser though.

As for Wario, I usually rely on them not knowing how to get out of the "infinite" yoshi has on him oh and spiking through the bike pwns major face. But yeah his air spacing pwns and can be quite annoying.

 

[Depster]

Jabs reach it... Warios like to short hop their Dairs. My friend knows Ka (best AZ player and Wario user) and uses Ka's style against me and has hardly Dair chained me since I found that those moves punish him.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Um, isnt there an infinite on Wario?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDFUwOEMKUU
I've heard about this as a CG on MK, but never on Wario.

Does this work, and if so does it change the matchup?

 

[ducky285]

The infinite apparently only works on CPUs. A human can find ways to escape it. Either way, releasing Wario does give you an almost-free u-smash on Wario, though I'm not sure if it's a guaranteed hit. It most certainly works on CPUs hehehehehe.

 

[Gindler]

I did it to a wario at a tourney a few weeks back, i felt like a total jerk but the "crowd" loved it cause the kid did so well in doubles so seeing yoshi make it look so easy was like a godsend apparently. So I guess people can't really escape from it...unless they maybe read a thread on the wario forums that is =P

 

[PhantomX]

You can double jump out of it As both a Wario and Yoshi player though... I would feel bad doing it to my other chara XD

 

[Shiri]

Yeah, the timing has to be precise or Wario can double jump or footstool out of it.

If your timing is spot on, though, then it's a free chain until he can actually escape on his own (somewhere in the lower nineties or lower hundreds, I think).

 

[Gindler]

ah, I'd usually release them after about 80 as to not be too unsportsmanlike.

But yeah his friend was like, c'mon get out of it. and all he said was, what do you think I've been trying to do!? So the timing must be like 1 frame if you're going to escape from it.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Pride: When we talked in person I knew you were an intelligent guy so when I read this thread I have to ask a question.

Are you on drugs?

 

[Gimpyfish62]

yoshi gives sheik some manner of troubles

 

[PRiDE]

Pride: When we talked in person I knew you were an intelligent guy so when I read this thread I have to ask a question.

Are you on drugs?

lol Emblem.. If you are refering to Marth being an easy match for Yoshi, I still agree with it. You are just a really really good player hence you winning slighty over Yoshi.. Marths never give me any issues.

and if ur refering to MK? One round yesterday against diem and I 2 stocked his mk... ;P he tv johns though.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

yoshi gives sheik some manner of troubles

I can see that. Sheik can't CG Yoshi for long here. Her tilts only do about half the damage they did in Melee and in the case of the up tilt, cannot combo as well as in Melee. Her fair and nair lost kill power. Sheik lost so many advantages that were in Melee. Howwever, her needles stun more here and can give Yoshi problems.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Pride: I'm not even refering to that.

I'm more confused about your Snake and Falco match-ups son.

WTF?!

But maybe you never lose to Marth's because you are simply the better player? Straight up man. I know you play Inui's Marth more then any other. Dude...>_> his Marth is generic and you know it. lol.

 

[PRiDE]

i two stocked keitaros falco and i hardly ever lose to snake.. except renos >_>

 

[Ch0zen0ne]

Aye Mr Lord.. he is clearly on drugs..

G&W ***** Yoshi.. as does Falco.. Snake is pretty even.. but DDD is a fricking b*tch.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Keitaro's Falco is not that great man.

And there are NO great Snake's in NJ.

And MY Marth was beating your Yoshi man. You were the first good Yoshi I ever played and I was beating you and you had more experience in the match-up.

What does that tell you?

AND you were the better player at the time.

Now what does THAT tell you about Marth vs Yoshi?

 

[bigman40]

Marth has a little advantage over yoshi (not big though). Just my thoughts.