Meta Competitive Smash Ruleset Discussion

[TheBuzzSaw]

I'm terrified of the idea that For Glory is considered Bread and Butter of the game.

win rate == skill level

^_^

 

[MysteriousSilver]

Oh dear. >.>

 

[allshort17]

I have only encountered a single good argument each, for 2-stock vs. 3-stock.

"I prefer 2-stock games."
and
"I prefer 3-stock games."

All the reasons I've seen for the supposed objective superiority of one or the other are really dubious.

(And now that I've alienated both sides, away I go!)

You're so right. Really, gameplay-wise little to nothing changes. The reason that Brawl players were so hesitant to change stocks was because there were many factors that were radically effected by stock changes. The effectiveness of ZSS's item pieces and IC's chaingrab, Wario's waft timer, and Pokemon Trainer were big arguments. However, all these things have been taken care of in Smash 4 (so far.) Pokemon Trainer is gone, Wario's waft can be filled faster by eating items and projectiles, ZSS no longer has item pieces, and chaingrabs have been solved. One could argue that ZSS and Rosalina infinites are strengthened as the stock count decreases, but both are highly situational. Stocks right now don't effect game play too much except for personal planing and pacing.

So people should be trying to present arguments based on effects outside the game. One plea could be continuity between the smash games. For example, Street Fighter has remained 3 rounds back since the first game. Keeping matches 3 rounds allows for players to jump into all Street Fighters without having to rethink their gameplan too much and retains a tradition. Also, since other fighting games adopted 3 rounds as the standard, it sets a nice and even tone across the community. However in Smash, all the games run at different stock lengths. This doesn't even consider the fact that stock isn't the game's default mode, timed match is. So outside of the competitive community, home rules dedicate what people play with. I recent played a guy in Brawl who liked 6 stock matches. There no real pattern to follow unless you want to go by the rule that stock count should decrease each game. But, that's just absurd. People argue that each game is a different beast and needs to be judged as such, but back to Street Fighter. Street Fighter II, III, and IV all are vastly different save for the fundamentals of the games, yet they all play with 3 rounds. This sort of breaks down the opinion that new games all need to be handled completely separate.

Tournament time and interest is another point to look at. Yet, the game hasn't been out long enough to completely judge the average length of a tournament, especially since many of the main TO's are running different rules. This is good for data collection, but more time needs to pass for this to be a completely relevant topic and because the metagame is still in it's infancy. The game could easily evolve into a quicker or longer game, leaving these current tournaments outdated in terms of timing results. Interest is really hard to gauge because there's no real way to quantify it. Since the game just came out, everyone and there mother is watching Smash 4, so people will put up with most all rulesets just because this is a new game. Let things settle and we'll see how consistent viewership and tournament attendance is. People are scared that game will linger on like Brawl with 3 stocks and want to make it quicker like Melee. However, Melee isn't all that quick as people think. For on the quicker side, yes, the matches are shorter on average than Brawl's quicker matches. On the other hand, matches in both games can technically last the same amount of time due to the timer. At the higher levels of Melee, where players act more calculated, games are slower and easily get around the 10-20 minute length, just like Brawl. But back to a previous argument, people believe this game has to be considered completely separately for other game and thus, no one really knows how to approach the stock count.

The best argument currently for 2-stocks is that it's the for glory standard. This would be one of the Smash community's first attempts at actually retaining default settings of the game and allows newer players to feel as they are playing the same game as us. Also, by going to 3-stocks, we somewhat compare this game to Brawl and as much as Brawl means to me, it gets a lot of hate. Keeping 3-stocks would connect the two games and bring some negative connotation to Smash 4.

Ultimately, the ruleset will be based on what the community wants for Smash as a whole and how they see other Smash games in relation to this one. But, that's the biggest problem. The community doesn't really know the answer to either issue. Do we want to push Smash 4 as the main game to play or let everyone play their own game? Melee is showing no signs of slowing down and frankly, is almost refusing to give up it's spot as the main competitive smash. The community is split between maintaining is grassroot feel and expanding to a mainstream competitive game, although we are leaning towards the latter. When we try to make a central group to decide rules, players still defy it and make their own rules. That problem stems from one of Smash's best design points: it's flexibility and openness. There's little creator's intent on how to play the game, so when we get close to agreeing on an issue, like stage selection, some major TO runs their tournament using different rules and everything is back to a free-for-all. Until the community actually knows what they want the games, tournaments, and community as a whole to reflect, we'll keep getting splits that are pretty much solely based on player preference.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

I'm terrified of the idea that For Glory is considered Bread and Butter of the game.

Non-competitively of course. Should've wrote that in the post but I forgot. What I meant with that is that non-competitive players will be looking for tournament footage to improve themselves for FG. If we don't stray too far from that we can actually get more players trying to learn how to play competitively.

 

[Thinkaman]

Guys, after a lot of careful thought, I think we should standardize around For Glory.

All tourneys should use the following rules:

• 2-stock, 5-minutes
• Blind-pick only
• Random Omega Stages only
• No custom moves
• No Miis
• Play exclusively on TVs with at least 5 frames of input delay
• No speaking to your opponent during or after the match

Creating a unified experience is critical for the competitive future of this game. Thanks.

 

[Terotrous]

Guys, after a lot of careful thought, I think we should standardize around For Glory.

All tourneys should use the following rules:

• 2-stock, 5-minutes
• Blind-pick only
• Random Omega Stages only
• No custom moves
• No Miis
• Play exclusively on TVs with at least 5 frames of input delay
• No speaking to your opponent during or after the match

Creating a unified experience is critical for the competitive future of this game. Thanks.

I was getting ready to tell you off until I got down to the 6th bullet.

 

[LunarWingCloud]

I would say keep it at 3-stock, 8-minute for ease of moving all the Brawl players into the Smash 4 tournaments since the two are very similar in more aspects than any other 2 Smash games are.

As for Stages that depends on the version of the game so I won't go into that.

Customs should be allowed as they don't really detract from the game at all and open up a lot of options. Miis as well on that note. Doesn't harm the experience at all.

 

[Galgatha]

I would say keep it at 3-stock, 8-minute for ease of moving all the Brawl players into the Smash 4 tournaments since the two are very similar in more aspects than any other 2 Smash games are.

As for Stages that depends on the version of the game so I won't go into that.

Customs should be allowed as they don't really detract from the game at all and open up a lot of options. Miis as well on that note. Doesn't harm the experience at all.

The only thing I disagree with you on is the time limit and mii's. From what I have seen Miis are pretty OP, basically the Meta Knight of Smash 4, and I think instead of a long 8min match, matches should be limited to 5min. But thats my personal opinion

 

[Terotrous]

The only thing I disagree with you on is the time limit and mii's. From what I have seen Miis are pretty OP, basically the Meta Knight of Smash 4, and I think instead of a long 8min match, matches should be limited to 5min. But thats my personal opinion

It's really hard to tell if Miis are balanced or not simply because people have so much less experience playing them. Easily one of the stupidest decisions in this game was not to allow Miis to be played online, they should have at least allowed default Miis (middle height and weight, default move customization options) to be used.

 

[JNewton]

A LOT of games I had on For Glory went to time. I support 2 stocks and 6 or 7 minutes.

About customization, I support Custom Moves, but not equipment. The boosts that a character receives from equipment are random, iirc. Also, on the Wii U version, unlocking all equips and then going to a tournament would cost time (the same applies to Custom Moves).

About the omega stages, I suggest them all to be banned, for simplicity sake, and let only the regular FD. I also prefer using stage strike.

 

[Terotrous]

A LOT of games I had on For Glory went to time. I support 2 stocks and 6 or 7 minutes.

Who are you playing? I've only ever had one match go to time in 200-ish matches.

Matches going to time also appear to be uncommon on most of the streams.

 

[Galgatha]

It's really hard to tell if Miis are balanced or not simply because people have so much less experience playing them. Easily one of the stupidest decisions in this game was not to allow Miis to be played online, they should have at least allowed default Miis (middle height and weight, default move customization options) to be used.

I personally have not played the game yet, so I'm just going by what ive seen in videos and heard from friends who own the game on 3ds.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

A LOT of games I had on For Glory went to time. I support 2 stocks and 6 or 7 minutes.

About customization, I support Custom Moves, but not equipment. The boosts that a character receives from equipment are random, iirc. Also, on the Wii U version, unlocking all equips and then going to a tournament would cost time (the same applies to Custom Moves).

About the omega stages, I suggest them all to be banned, for simplicity sake, and let only the regular FD. I also prefer using stage strike.

I've never had a FG match go to time, and I use Rosalina who can be argued is one of the campiest characters in the game. My longest matches have all been against Dedede, but it's still never gone longer than 4-4.5 minutes.

 

[Thinkaman]

The only thing I disagree with you on is the time limit and mii's. From what I have seen Miis are pretty OP, basically the Meta Knight of Smash 4, and I think instead of a long 8min match, matches should be limited to 5min. But thats my personal opinion

Hahaha, sorry, I don't mean to sound condescending, but the Miis are all pretty underwhelming. Gunner is decent and the most interesting, but probably has some matchup polarization that prevents him from ever being better than mid-tier. Brawler is "okay" at best and will probably drop over time, and Swordfighter is probably the worst character in the game.

 

[JNewton]

Who are you playing? I've only ever had one match go to time in 200-ish matches.

Matches going to time also appear to be uncommon on most of the streams.

I play Mario. Maybe it is just my playstyle. Btw, I had most time outs against Duck Hunts and Rosalinas.

 

[Jaxas]

So, Wii U ruleset stuff! What are everyone's thoughts on controller modifications? (Specifically removing the springs from the L/R triggers on a GC controller)

Obviously things like turbo buttons and macros won't be allowed, as they never are. However spring modification was the sole legal controller mod allowed in Brawl, and Smash 4 seems to handle the analog portions of those triggers in much (if not exactly) the same way; namely it completely ignores the analog (depth-sensing) portion and only reads the digital (TRUE or FALSE) signal of "Is this button fully pressed".

I'm one of many who much prefer using a controller without springs in the shoulder buttons (especially as I generally use L as another jump button), so I figure we should start talking about this.

Now obviously the Wii U version has yet to be released, so I propose that we enter this discussion under the assumption that the shielding controls work exactly as it did in the E3 demos (which I believe worked just like Brawl, however only the invitational players can speak to this for sure).
I feel this is a safe bet, as many of the control schemes (Wiimote, for example, to say nothing of 3DS) don't have analog triggers/buttons at all, so implementing anything other than digital triggers seems odd to me.

Anyways, I'm all for it personally, however I'd like to see the community's thoughts on the matter.

Spoiler

I feel like I ramble rather often, sorry about that.

 

[DeLux]

I'm working on a Smash 3DS rulesset for the Kansas Stock Market right now. Does this game need a port priority selection system? Is there port priority? etc.

 

[mimgrim]

So, Wii U ruleset stuff! What are everyone's thoughts on controller modifications? (Specifically removing the springs from the L/R triggers on a GC controller)

Obviously things like turbo buttons and macros won't be allowed, as they never are. However spring modification was the sole legal controller mod allowed in Brawl, and Smash 4 seems to handle the analog portions of those triggers in much (if not exactly) the same way; namely it completely ignores the analog (depth-sensing) portion and only reads the digital (TRUE or FALSE) signal of "Is this button fully pressed".

I'm one of many who much prefer using a controller without springs in the shoulder buttons (especially as I generally use L as another jump button), so I figure we should start talking about this.

Now obviously the Wii U version has yet to be released, so I propose that we enter this discussion under the assumption that the shielding controls work exactly as it did in the E3 demos (which I believe worked just like Brawl, however only the invitational players can speak to this for sure).
I feel this is a safe bet, as many of the control schemes (Wiimote, for example, to say nothing of 3DS) don't have analog triggers/buttons at all, so implementing anything other than digital triggers seems odd to me.

Anyways, I'm all for it personally, however I'd like to see the community's thoughts on the matter.

Spoiler

I feel like I ramble rather often, sorry about that.

As far as I know removing the springs from the GCCs has been allowed since Melee, I believe there were even some well known players who played without the springs in Melee. Don't see it being any different for this game.

 

[DanGR]

I'm working on a Smash 3DS rulesset for the Kansas Stock Market right now. Does this game need a port priority selection system? Is there port priority? etc.

At the very least, there's host priority. I browse quite a bit and haven't seen mention of effects of port priority, really.

 

[DeLux]

At the very least, there's host priority. I browse quite a bit and haven't seen mention of effects of port priority, really.

Me neither and that worries me lol

 

[Pippin (Peregrin Took)]

Just asking a question and throwing in my two cents.

I've gotten hints on the boards but can anybody clearly define for me what the general consensus speedwise is vs. Brawl. Significantly faster but not Melee fast? Brawl+ fast? Or barely even noticeable and it's a great burden on the game's chances as a competitive venue?

Also, there's an interesting discussion going on about battles in 8-player Smash mode and I think it would be worth discussing as we plan rulesets as well. Personally I wouldn't mind seeing a 1v1, 2v2, and EITHER 3v3 or 4v4 but not both. Too many divisions may fragment the community methinks. I do like the idea of teams beyond simply duos though because we see teams in other e-sports all the time, like Halo teams or WoW guilds. It definitely seems like it could mix things up, and all the talk about giant crew battles is exciting. I suppose all we can do at this point is speculate until November 21st.

 

[RWB]

I personally have not played the game yet, so I'm just going by what ive seen in videos and heard from friends who own the game on 3ds.

Brawler is fast and powerful, but has some issues with predictable kill moves. Gunner is a very solid spacer/ranged character.

Swordfighter is looking to be really bad.

I know I'm hardly big name in the community, but I've played them quite a bit, and I'm not seeing anything that would place them in the same tier as Sheik or ZSS.

 

[Jaxas]

As far as I know removing the springs from the GCCs has been allowed since Melee, I believe there were even some well known players who played without the springs in Melee. Don't see it being any different for this game.

I don't believe that to be the case, as there was the Light Shielding mechanic and it was considered to make PowerShielding "Too Easy".

Also, not sure if I just did something wrong, but I actually can't play Melee with my Brawl controller without springs as it registers as them both constantly being held down; constant shield until it pops, with basically only ShieldGrab, Roll, Spotdodge, and jump available as options.

 

[mimgrim]

I don't believe that to be the case, as there was the Light Shielding mechanic and it was considered to make PowerShielding "Too Easy".

No no no. It doesn't make Power Shielding easier, at least not any easier then it would in Brawl (because less resistance). As for Light Shielding, it hardly matter because that only takes away an option from you so you can meet with less resistance from the triggers.

Most TOs allow the springs to be removed from the GCC, and again, even in Melee.

It's hard to find anything concrete on it, as it doesn't come up often but what I could find;
http://smashboards.com/threads/should-i-alter-the-l-r-triggers-on-my-white-gc-controller.361369/

http://smashboards.com/threads/custom-controllers-sticks-at-tournaments.311339/

Spoiler: important posts

I distinctly remember hearing that putting the springs sideways in the shoulders (so that they functioned as buttons not triggers) was banned. I'd therefor assume that modifications to that extent are illegal.

From what I know, controller mods being banned pretty much means things such as macros or turbo buttons. Removing the springs in the shoulder button so that it no longer registers a light press should not be banned. You can get the exact same effect by holding the shoulder button in all the way when plugging in your controller.

I was also under the impression that removing springs from triggers was standard practice among the brawl community, since there's no light shielding anyways, only the button press matters. Any brawlers wanna weigh in?

http://smashboards.com/threads/i-wanna-get-into-melee-but-theres-wavedashing-l-cancel-etc.306592/ (Crtl+F then search for the word "springs" on the first page)

All 3 are Melee threads and the general consensus seems to be that removing the springs are generally aloud. But there is no real defined rule on it.

Also, not sure if I just did something wrong, but I actually can't play Melee with my Brawl controller without springs as it registers as them both constantly being held down; constant shield until it pops, with basically only ShieldGrab, Roll, Spotdodge, and jump available as options.

You had to have done something wrong, cause that shouldn't be happening.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

So, what have we agreed on ruleset-wise?

 

[Thinkaman]

So, what have we agreed on ruleset-wise?

But seriously, we've largely reached a community agreement on:

• Local WiiU play is primary
• 2 or 3 stock
• 5-8 min stock time limit
• Displays should be ideally 1080p wide-viewing angle (IPS) low input lag (sub-1-frame)
• Custom moves should be legal, transparent, and universally labeled between systems ("1322")
• Custom equipment varies randomly and should be reserved for side events
• 4v4 is frickin' great sounding

Otherwise, standard event etiquette and procedures apply as normal.

We are currently debating stage legality and pick procedures, a debate which cannot possibly conclude until after we have all played extensively on the WiiU stages.

 

[Pippin (Peregrin Took)]

But seriously, we've largely reached a community agreement on:

• Local WiiU play is primary
• 2 or 3 stock
• 5-8 min stock time limit
• Displays should be ideally 1080p wide-viewing angle (IPS) low input lag (sub-1-frame)
• Custom moves should be legal, transparent, and universally labeled between systems ("1322")
• Custom equipment varies randomly and should be reserved for side events
• 4v4 is frickin' great sounding

Otherwise, standard event etiquette and procedures apply as normal.

We are currently debating stage legality and pick procedures, a debate which cannot possibly conclude until after we have all played extensively on the WiiU stages.

Loving these rules right now. Was hoping for custom moves but not equipment and really want 4v4 to be a reality.

 

[The_Altrox]

Should there be a rule about team colors, should a player ask if players on both sides color coordinate? I like color options, but even so, I'm one of those guys that responds to color. The outline helps, but it isn't perfect.

 

[M15t3R E]

Should there be a rule about team colors, should a player ask if players on both sides color coordinate? I like color options, but even so, I'm one of those guys that responds to color. The outline helps, but it isn't perfect.

The outline could have been a bit bolder. We'll have to make do with it, won't we?
In Brawl, there were problems such as Pokemon Trainer's pokemon, Lucario, and Sonic on a team and looking like a different team color than they actually are. I suspect the outline was meant to alleviate that issue. Plus, now you can use whichever costume you want with any team color.

 

[The_Altrox]

I know that there are limitations. If everybody picks Pac-Man, not even costume colors can save you. But for what we can control, if somebody on the blue team has the distraction of dealing with a Blue character on the other team, couldn't a request be made to coordinate if need be (and if possible, because Sonic is in a perpetual state of blue)?

 

[ddrt]

As far as unlocking goes: Why not bring a few extra SD cards that are exact copies of your initial WiiU SSB save. Then put them into each WiiU and then you have everything unlocked? Does it not work this way? If it does why didn't anyone think of this before?

Also, does the button that is in the main menu of the 3ds that says WiiU Transfer not transfer your character like the treehouse episode of nintendo direct demonstrated it did? Or am I way off again from what I've come to understand?

 

[Pippin (Peregrin Took)]

As far as unlocking goes: Why not bring a few extra SD cards that are exact copies of your initial WiiU SSB save. Then put them into each WiiU and then you have everything unlocked? Does it not work this way? If it does why didn't anyone think of this before?

Also, does the button that is in the main menu of the 3ds that says WiiU Transfer not transfer your character like the treehouse episode of nintendo direct demonstrated it did? Or am I way off again from what I've come to understand?

The save is directly on the console or an external hard drive rather than an sd card, but that does sound logical using a hard drive

 

[The_Altrox]

Also, I don't know if this has been talked about yet, but should teams be banned? I know that it's bad to rush into banning things, but the fact that Pika can fill the bucket in one thunder, which can then kill people at pathetically low percents is such a broken team. The vids on this are disgusting...

 

[infomon]

There might be other teams that are just as "disgusting". Hm, not to be depended on, but counters/reflectors could make hilarious work of the bucket.

 

[Terotrous]

There might be other teams that are just as "disgusting". Hm, not to be depended on, but counters/reflectors could make hilarious work of the bucket.

You can't reflect Oil Panic as it's technically considered an attack and not a projectile. Counter works though.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

But seriously, we've largely reached a community agreement on:

• Local WiiU play is primary
• 2 or 3 stock
• 5-8 min stock time limit
• Displays should be ideally 1080p wide-viewing angle (IPS) low input lag (sub-1-frame)
• Custom moves should be legal, transparent, and universally labeled between systems ("1322")
• Custom equipment varies randomly and should be reserved for side events
• 4v4 is frickin' great sounding

Otherwise, standard event etiquette and procedures apply as normal.

We are currently debating stage legality and pick procedures, a debate which cannot possibly conclude until after we have all played extensively on the WiiU stages.

Cool. What about 3DS though? 3DS does cover some niches since it can run multiple matches simultaneously, which means 3 Stocks being more than reasonable, Tournaments actually running in a reasonable time frame and stuff like that.
The Wii U is obviously the main event in tournaments, but the 3DS shouldn't be ignored.

And as I feared, no one actually reached an agreement between 2 and 3 stocks.

 

[Terotrous]

Cool. What about 3DS though? 3DS does cover some niches since it can run multiple matches simultaneously, which means 3 Stocks being more than reasonable, Tournaments actually running in a reasonable time frame and stuff like that.
The Wii U is obviously the main event in tournaments, but the 3DS shouldn't be ignored.

And as I feared, no one actually reached an agreement between 2 and 3 stocks.

The biggest problem with 3DS is lag. Even over local wifi, atrocious lag (multiple interruptions of 20+ frames) happens shockingly often. There's also the issue of controls. And you need a special streaming 3DS to record matches, which is an annoyance for TOs. I simply don't see many situations where people would want to play on 3DS over Wii U if given the option.

 

[SonicZeroX]

Cool. What about 3DS though? 3DS does cover some niches since it can run multiple matches simultaneously, which means 3 Stocks being more than reasonable, Tournaments actually running in a reasonable time frame and stuff like that.
The Wii U is obviously the main event in tournaments, but the 3DS shouldn't be ignored.

And as I feared, no one actually reached an agreement between 2 and 3 stocks.

I think the main reason why 2 vs 3 stocks is still an issue is each one can feel better depending on the matchup. Like in a very offensive matchup like Little Mac dittos, 3 stocks feels better because they kill each other so easily. But in a very campy matchup like Duck Hunt dittos 3 stocks can drag on and 2 stocks feels a lot better.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

I think the main reason why 2 vs 3 stocks is still an issue is each one can feel better depending on the matchup. Like in a very offensive matchup like Little Mac dittos, 3 stocks feels better because they kill each other so easily. But in a very campy matchup like Duck Hunt dittos 3 stocks can drag on and 2 stocks feels a lot better.

That's just one of the problems, the main problem is the tournament timeframe. On Major Tournaments time is a very complicated issue. I still vote for 2 stock for early bracket matches and 3 stock for top 16 onwards.

 

[Terotrous]

That's just one of the problems, the main problem is the tournament timeframe. On Major Tournaments time is a very complicated issue. I still vote for 2 stock for early bracket matches and 3 stock for top 16 onwards.

Changing the basic rules based on the position in the tournament seems very undesirable to me. 2 stock to 3 stock is a much bigger difference than best of 3 vs best of 5 because it changes the progression of each individual match.


Honestly, while I sympathize with the tournament time argument to some extent, I think the Rage mechanic basically forces us to 3 stock. Its effect is just too strong and one-sided in a 2 stock match. 2 stock also makes SDs or lucky gimps too impactful as well.