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Competitive Pot Split

nuro

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1st 37%
2nd 33%
3rd 30%

Thoughts?

I hear some people don't like this idea but I don't understand why. I am sure you would still try your hardest in a tournament even with only a 5% increase for 1st. It is tough for 2nd and 3rd to be getting so much less for having close to the skill level as first.

Why not change the pot split? It's too often that tournament hosts go on auto pilot and make some pot split like 70 20 10 without realizing what this means for the actual people who get to get in either 1st 2nd or 3rd. Most people don't even think about this because they never even come close to gettings 1st 2nd or 3rd anyway and its that type of mindset that ruins it for the top 3.
 

AlphaZealot

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The goal is to win. Winning means more than getting second place. By your logic, the 2nd place finisher in survivor should only have a few grand less than the first, since they both made it the same number of days it was very close.

The best players come for the prizes and having the best players increases your competition. In addition to this, if there is a grand finals where the difference between 1st/2nd is $800, and a grand finals between 1st/2nd is only $100, then which of those grand finals do you think will be more epic.

Instead of thinking of it in relation to placement think of it in relation to importance of the last match.

If I do a $1 MM with someone it doesn't mean much.
If I do a $5 MM with someone it means a little bit.
If I do a $20 MM with someone it means a lot.
If I do a $100 MM with someone it means an awful lot.
If I do a $1000 MM with someone it means so much that both players will be practicing their fingers off for weeks before the match even occurs-the actual match will in turn be much more exciting/important than if it was an off the cusp of little importance $1 MM.

That said, I used this payout structure at my last tournament and would advocate others using it as well:
1: 48%
2: 22%
3: 14%
4: 8%
5: 4%
5: 4%

This was the payout structure first used by BOMB 4 in MD (large regional) in 2005. The 2009 Midwest Circuit will be using this payout structure to my knowledge.

The idea is to spread the wealth a little bit. However the gaps between top 3 are still pretty noticeable.
 

nuro

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I know where your coming from. I used to feel the same way. But the difference in pot size doesnt mean much. When I am in the finals of a tournament I always try my hardest. It doesn't matter if the pot difference is 50% or 6% I still try the best I can do. Everyone wants to get 1st, of course.


I don't understand why you think giving a drastically bigger pot to 1st makes it epic. You can have a competitive split in a tournament and it can still be an epic tournament.

All I am saying is it is not necessarily fair for 2nd and 3rd to be getting so much less than first even though they have gone through nearly the same to get there. Of course 1st should get more but some tournaments just give 1st a drastically bigger amount.
 

AlphaZealot

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I think it makes it epic because it isn't just what occurs AT the tournament, but the preparation before the tournament begins. If you know all you have to do is get top 3 to get a large prize will you put in the same time as you would if you knew only 1st would get you a real, meaningful, prize?
 

AvaricePanda

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That said, I used this payout structure at my last tournament and would advocate others using it as well:
1: 48%
2: 22%
3: 14%
4: 8%
5: 4%
5: 4%

This was the payout structure first used by BOMB 4 in MD (large regional) in 2005. The 2009 Midwest Circuit will be using this payout structure to my knowledge.
I really like this payout.

When first is considerably higher than the others, I'd assume the environment's much more competitive. Instead of someone being content with second or third, they strive for first because the payout's better. But when it's 70, 20, 10, people who were 2nd and 3rd get shafted even if they're close.
 

Xiivi

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For even larger events with a very large pot where you want to extend payment to 7th place as well, I would suggest this:

1: 45%
2: 22%
3: 14%
4: 8%
5: 4%
5: 4%
7: 1.5%
7: 1.5%
 

Xiivi

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It's good. 1st place is still getting paid over double of what 2nd is getting, and is still taking nearly half the pot and this is only for very large pots where the 1.5% would actually be a nice amount to those 7th place finishers who worked hard through what was probably a large/national 2-day event.
 

AlphaZealot

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MLG's 2006 Smash payout IIRC was:
1: $2,000
2: $1,200
3: $800
4: $600
5: $400
6: $300
7: $200
8: $100

The 1st 3 spots are definately correct, the 4-8 spots may be off by $50-$100 up or down.

So, people can figure what percentages they use, but its closer to the 48/22/14 method than the 70/20/10 method.

I don't like 70/20/10. Spreading the pot to 5th encourages more attendence.

10 person $10 entry
1. $70
2. $20
3. $10

Now lets say the pot is spread thinner and spread to 4-6th (double the money pay out spots) and the attendence in turn doubles:
20 person $10 entry
1. $96
2. $44
3. $28
4. $16
5. $8
5. $8

So, while the 70/20/10 looks like it gets the winner more money, what isn't taken into account is how a tournament attendance can be effected by how deep the payouts go. I knew many people who went to MLG events in 2006 because the payouts went to 8th place and they felt they had a chance at that but not at 1st place.

Even if only 5 more people show up, so 15, then 1st place STILL gets more money then in the 70/20/10 system (they would get $72).
 

Xiivi

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1: $2,000
2: $1,200
3: $800
4: $600
5: $400
6: $300
7: $200
8: $100

Total = 5,600$$

1: ~38%
2: ~21%
3: ~14%
4: ~11%
5: ~7%
6: ~5%
7: ~4%
8: ~2%


Interesting things of note:
1st place was not payed over double of what 2nd was payed, or even double of it. That's not something I agree with. I believe 1st should always be payed over double of what second is or at least double. It's good for healthy competition.

My extension has:
5th/5th: 8% total
7th/7th: 3% total

MLG's has:
5th/6th: 12% total
7th/8th: 6% total

Looking at this; my system stays fairly true with the 70; 30; 10 system.
In 70; 30; 10:
70% goes to your Alpha player.
30% goes to your Beta player.
10% goes to a Gamma.

In large-scale regional/national tournaments, 3rd place isn't just a random Gamma level player. The bottom 4 of the top 8 are these players. Thus between these 4, they are given around 10% (11% specifically) to split between them. This makes sense.

Your Alpha players, 1st and 2nd place, are given around 70% of the pot (67% actually). And your Beta players, 3rd and 4th place, are given around 20% of the pot (22% actually).

MLG's payout system is far off from this. I do believe that we should keep as close to the 70; 20; 10 model as it works very well in distributing payouts that promotes healthy competition.

If you want to be really picky about things and made the Top 8 payout model follow 70;20;10 exactly, then I'd go with:

1st: 49%
2nd: 21%
3rd: 14%
4th: 6%
5th: 3.5%
5th: 3.5%
7th: 1.5%
7th: 1.5%

This follows the 70;20;10 logic for every subdivision of it.

1st and 2nd: 70% (Of that 70%, 1st makes 70%, 2nd makes 30%)
3rd and 4th: 20% (Of that 20%, 3rd makes 70%, 4th makes 30%)
5ths and 7ths: 10% (Of that 10%, 5ths take 70%, 7ths take 30%)

Also, while your example is nice AZ, you should never extend a prize payout to any player that is lower than the entry fee. If you cannot give them their venue fee back, then either they shouldn't be given a prize or the percentage breakdown you are using is flawed.

EDIT:
Looking more at MLG's system, it's useless to try to pull anything out of it's percentage breakdown. It's obviously not based on percentages and made from simple algebraic patterns.
 

AlphaZealot

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Yea, MLG's system isn't based on percentage, but I thought it would be interesting to look at.

I also disagree, this isn't anything wrong with getting money even if it is less than the entry fee. You get 5th and you can say Smash paid for your next meal.

Regardless, I think the
1. 48%
2. 22%
3. 14%
4. 8%
5. 4%
5. 4%

Is the best payout system. And if you have a large tournament then yea, top 8, take 3% from first and redistribute it to the 7th place positions (1.5% each).

I'm mainly an advocate for this system because, in a lot of regions, the competition for 4/5th is just as much an accomplishment for some people as it is for first. But, the MAIN reason, is I believe it increases attendance and the "happyness" of the tournament attendees. And this increased attendance would actually give MORE to 1st then in the 70/20/10 payout while also making more people happy.
 

Xiivi

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I also disagree, this isn't anything wrong with getting money even if it is less than the entry fee. You get 5th and you can say Smash paid for your next meal.
Everytime I've ever seen a prize given out that is less than the entry free I see an attitude along the lines of: "Wow, I didn't even get my money back? How stupid! *laughs*" Perhaps you've had better experiences with this, but I know this is the train of thought I've seen in any instance where it's happened. Doubles play isn't that popular in my region, and I know I will not enter teams unless I know I will be at least getting my money back if my team gets 3rd. If 3rd place isn't getting their money back due to too few teams, I'm not going to enter, even if I know my team has a high probably at 1st/2nd. I've seen many others with this line of thought. Getting paid an amount that's less than your enterance fee seems insulting. "You say my placement was good; but I wasn't even able to pay for the enterance fee with the prize money, so it obviously mustn't be that impressive."

That's my thinking on that subject.

Regardless, I think the
snip
Is the best payout system. And if you have a large tournament then yea, top 8, take 3% from first and redistribute it to the 7th place positions (1.5% each).
I also agree that it is a wonderful payout system and I also believe that is because of how well it follows the 70;20;10 model. :p
 

AlphaZealot

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1 step back: I only advocate this payout system for singles. Doubles already pays out to 6 people.

Everytime I've ever seen a prize given out that is less than the entry free I see an attitude along the lines of: "Wow, I didn't even get my money back? How stupid! *laughs*" Perhaps you've had better experiences with this, but I know this is the train of thought I've seen in any instance where it's happened. Doubles play isn't that popular in my region, and I know I will not enter teams unless I know I will be at least getting my money back if my team gets 3rd. If 3rd place isn't getting their money back due to too few teams, I'm not going to enter, even if I know my team has a high probably at 1st/2nd. I've seen many others with this line of thought. Getting paid an amount that's less than your enterance fee seems insulting. "You say my placement was good; but I wasn't even able to pay for the enterance fee with the prize money, so it obviously mustn't be that impressive."
Yea, I've seen different sentiments. Usually its "dang, wait, I get $9 for 5th? At least I can get some food, beats getting nothing".

BOMB4 I think was the 1st tournament to use the 48/22/14/8/4/4 system, and I honestly believe attendance was 20-30 players more than it would have been had it been a different system. For the record BOMB4 had 104 entrants and was a $20 entry fee for singles (oh the day's of $20 entry fee and no venue fee tournaments). I believe the people in 5th got around $60 (some of the staff did not pay entry since they were entering the tournament so the pot I think was 3-4 less people then actually entered, if that makes sense). It was the first large tournament to pay out passed top 3 (IIRC, FC3 in summer 2005 may have paid out passed top 3, can't remember).

I mean, I would rather have SOMETHING then NOTHING, but I guess that may just be me. I would especially feel that way if I'm some who consistently places 4th/5th but was just beyond the ability to get into 1-3.
 

Xiivi

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I understand your mindset on the sentiment about having a payout less than the entrance for an individual. However I will never make a payout that is less than entrance for any of my events based on personal experience, although if another TO wishes to do so, that's fine. I think the difference is simply from mindset. If a player has typically made a profit from tournaments, if they are given an amount less than entrance then they'll probably not be too thrilled. However, if someone typically does not make a profit tournaments, they have probably always viewed that entry fee as a payment and not a gamble, and thus getting something back would be something they were grateful for. However it's a trivial thing to argue and up to TO discretion.

But yes, I do agree that for events that can adequately fund it, they should pay out past 3 (or past 6). I wouldn't venture paying out past 12th. I could see paying out those 9ths in very rare cases, but I wouldn't recommend it and definitely not recommend ever paying the 13ths.
 

KoreanDJ111

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Winner takes all.

Or we could just be having a f*cking binkie and cry about our little boo-boo's and blog about it in our emo-journals and facebooks.
 

KoreanDJ111

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I think tournament standings is fine. Splitting the pot 37%/33% etc. is cool if all the players agree. But it shouldn't be a mandatory pot for tournament hosters to decide.
 

Grunt

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nothing is really mandatory, but I agree, the 37/33/30 split is bizarre.
I do like the 48/22 etc. split down to 8 or 9th place if you have a large national thingy, otherwise, 70/20/10 is pretty good.
 

nuro

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The finals of a huge tournament

thousands of dollars on the line

the last round of the set

both at their last stock

player one trips!

player 2 downsmashes!

player 2 just got 2,000 more dollars than player 1

makes sense!

good game!
 

Proverbs

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The finals of a huge tournament

thousands of dollars on the line

the last round of the set

both at their last stock

player one trips!

player 2 downsmashes!

player 2 just got 2,000 more dollars than player 1

makes sense!

good game!
Yeah...there's a reason why I don't play Brawl. That's it--well, that and many other reasons.

But I totally agree with something like 60/30/10. Or even 60/25/15, if you want third place to get a little more. That's why competition is there. By your split, you're only getting 4% more for first place. That means, out of a $400, first place is going to take $148, and second place is going to take $132--that's a difference of how much? $16. Big whoop.

But let's change this up. Let's say you're using the first model I had. That means first place is taking $240, and second place is taking $120. Yeah, you're going to be playing a lot harder to win that match.

And you can't say money isn't a factor in how hard you play. Tell me: If you're in a tournament, are you going to play just as hard if you're only going to get $16 more rather than $120? Or let's raise the stakes even. Are you going to play just as hard if you're going to get $16 more, or if you're either getting $1,000,000 if you win, and nothing if you lose.

Money is a factor. That's why it raises the stakes. It does make matches more epic.

And plus: Even though money's a factor, it's just money. It's not like we need to even the playing field here. No one's going to die if they don't end up winning some cash at a Melee tournament. If they've had the time to put into getting good at Melee, chances are they're fine financially (or at least to the degree that winning a tournament wouldn't really help them much).

Furthermore, we're not children here. We can handle the idea of loss. If five-year olds were entering and the difference was between 5 pieces of candy and 3, sure--even it out and give them four each or whatever. But that's not the case here, we're not kids who need a handicap. Honestly, I'd either be insulted if someone asked me to split the pool (if they're trying to 'cut me a break') or I'd either think they're just scared and know I'll take first anyway. The thing is, it's only when stakes are raised high that people play from their hearts.

Here's an example: My friend and I will play Melee a ton together--we just do friendlies. We go almost even with each other (I'm a little better), but for some reason he'll win a bit more of the matches than me. Why? There are no stakes. I'm not losing anything by losing to him. I don't really care--I just use it as practice and to have fun. So I SD all I want and try the most ridiculous things. But at the end of the night we tend to do a best 3 out of 5. Almost every time I absolutely wreck him (it's not his fault, I just play with better people--he doesn't have anyone near him :( ). Why? Because I started caring--the stakes were raised. To me, that said who was the better player. We both try much harder--and this is without money involved, mind you.

See, if the players at the finals weren't really losing anything--or even if you decreased the stakes at all, they're not going to play as hard. And if you don't believe that stakes determine how hard you play, think about this: Would you play the same way in a friendly as you would if you were playing to save your life?

High stakes=Epic matches.

And plus, this is competition, right? If you're entering, you'd better be prepared for the possibility of losing.
 

AnDaLe

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1: $2,000
2: $1,200
3: $800
4: $600
5: $400
6: $300
7: $200
8: $100

Total = 5,600$$

1: ~38%
2: ~21%
3: ~14%
4: ~11%
5: ~7%
6: ~5%
7: ~4%
8: ~2%


Interesting things of note:
1st place was not payed over double of what 2nd was payed, or even double of it. That's not something I agree with. I believe 1st should always be payed over double of what second is or at least double. It's good for healthy competition.

My extension has:
5th/5th: 8% total
7th/7th: 3% total

MLG's has:
5th/6th: 12% total
7th/8th: 6% total

Looking at this; my system stays fairly true with the 70; 30; 10 system.
In 70; 30; 10:
70% goes to your Alpha player.
30% goes to your Beta player.
10% goes to a Gamma.

In large-scale regional/national tournaments, 3rd place isn't just a random Gamma level player. The bottom 4 of the top 8 are these players. Thus between these 4, they are given around 10% (11% specifically) to split between them. This makes sense.

Your Alpha players, 1st and 2nd place, are given around 70% of the pot (67% actually). And your Beta players, 3rd and 4th place, are given around 20% of the pot (22% actually).

MLG's payout system is far off from this. I do believe that we should keep as close to the 70; 20; 10 model as it works very well in distributing payouts that promotes healthy competition.

If you want to be really picky about things and made the Top 8 payout model follow 70;20;10 exactly, then I'd go with:

1st: 49%
2nd: 21%
3rd: 14%
4th: 6%
5th: 3.5%
5th: 3.5%
7th: 1.5%
7th: 1.5%

This follows the 70;20;10 logic for every subdivision of it.

1st and 2nd: 70% (Of that 70%, 1st makes 70%, 2nd makes 30%)
3rd and 4th: 20% (Of that 20%, 3rd makes 70%, 4th makes 30%)
5ths and 7ths: 10% (Of that 10%, 5ths take 70%, 7ths take 30%)

Also, while your example is nice AZ, you should never extend a prize payout to any player that is lower than the entry fee. If you cannot give them their venue fee back, then either they shouldn't be given a prize or the percentage breakdown you are using is flawed.

EDIT:
Looking more at MLG's system, it's useless to try to pull anything out of it's percentage breakdown. It's obviously not based on percentages and made from simple algebraic patterns.
I like either one.
 

nuro

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I think it is really important that people in 4th 5th and even 7th place can get something. It gives people some satisfaction that they have achieved something and will probably help them to stay competitive.
 

Thinkaman

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I like the idea of each place getting half of the one above it. The cut-off point should be where the value given would be less than the event entry fee. The practical implications of this would be:

3-6 people:
1st- 67%
2nd- 33%

7-14 people:
1st- 57%
2nd- 29%
3rd- 14%

15-31 people:
1st- 53%
2nd- 27%
3rd- 13%
4th- 7%

32-65 people:
1st- 50%
2nd- 25%
3rd- 13%
4th- 6%
5th- 3%
5th- 3%

66-136 people:
1st- 48%
2nd- 24%
3rd- 12%
4th- 6%
5th- 3%
5th- 3%
7th- 1.5%
7th- 1.5%

The math looks nasty, but what you end up handing out ends up being nice and clean since it's all powers of 2. You can also make the large-eight place spread nicer by padding it with an "extra 3%", presumably from the venue fees. That let's you have a nice and clean spread that adds up to 103%:

1st- 50%
2nd- 25%
3rd- 12.5%
4th- 6.25%
5th- 3.125%
5th- 3.125%
7th- 1.5%
7th- 1.5%
 
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