Competitive Impressions | MLG Finals

[Spinosaurus]

Nairo didn't even play Doc with what he actually can do the best. Hardly abused OoS up b.

 

[Zannabluke]

What was that combo?! Is d-throw to fair true?!

if they di in, yes

 

[TTTTTsd]

Nairo didn't even play Doc with what he actually can do the best. Hardly abused OoS up b.

I'd like to point this out as well. He really missed a few OoS and USmash antiairs but he played really well otherwise. Here's some pretty good evidence lol.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Guys, doing work in one set doesn't suddenly prove a character is not bottom 10.

At most, it means they might be a valid counter pick option for that one MU. Except Nairo still lost the set. Now if he had made that far using Dr.Mario only or at least very frequently? Then we could talk.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Guys, doing work in one set doesn't suddenly prove a character is not bottom 10.

At most, it means they might be a valid counter pick option for that one MU. Except Nairo still lost the set. Now if he had made that far using Dr.Mario only or at least very frequently? Then we could talk.

Oh this set didn't just suddenly change my mind. I always figured he wasn't, I don't know how far out of that range he is but my major point is that he's super underrated and downplayed and this is what happens when you generally underestimate a character greatly, people get all shocked.

Also Doc > Pika is not a valid CP at all, unless Nairo thinks it is? That'd be interesting. Maybe I'll ask him.

I've always echoed that Doc is a great secondary/CP character. Nobody in here said Solo viable until you did man. I don't think he is either! But his best role has just been demonstrated live at a giant event, basically.

 

[Zannabluke]

i don't think anyone here wants to prove that doc is solo-viable
instead, we just had a quite solid performance that demonstrates why he works as a strong counterpick character

 

[Gawain]

Guys, doing work in one set doesn't suddenly prove a character is not bottom 10.

At most, it means they might be a valid counter pick option for that one MU. Except Nairo still lost the set. Now if he had made that far using Dr.Mario only or at least very frequently? Then we could talk.

If he's proven he can take games off a top character, then there is no way he is even close to the bottom 5 characters. The idea that Doc is bottom 5 is, frankly, outrageously stupid. He still has good frame data. He still does good damage. He still has setups. It's just the typical bandwagoning that people here love to do. He's not bottom 5. Not even close.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Taking games off of a top character =/= can't be bottom 10. That's a fairly bad logic when realistically anyone outside of the bottom 5 (and maybe even within the bottom 5 if Samus is down there) can win games against certain high or top tier characters. It just strictly a showcase of how the two character's attributes line up. Nothing more, nothing less. Might not even prove that they have the advantage in the MU, just that its doable.

Claiming that a character can't be anywhere near the bottom based off of one losing set by a guy who sometimes sandbags as part of his strategy is silly. Nowhere near enough data to make any assertions that they aren't bottom 10. You can make the claim when the character does work all the way through a tournament, not before.

Let me put it this way: Mewtwo has more proof that he's not bottom 10 than Dr.Mario does thanks to Trela's one tournament run.

 

[Ghostbone]

ESAM's Samus beat Larry's Luigi that one time, and she's the worst or second worst character in the game (debatable between her and zelda)
It's not outside the realm of possibility that a bottom tier character's strengths can really shine in a top tier matchup while their weaknesses don't matter as much. Falcon vs Wario in Brawl was a similarly reasonable matchup for falcon despite falcon being an awful character.

 

[Gawain]

Taking games off of a top character =/= can't be bottom 10. That's a fairly bad logic when realistically anyone outside of the bottom 5 (and maybe even within the bottom 5 if Samus is down there) can win games against certain high or top tier characters. It just strictly a showcase of how the two character's attributes line up. Nothing more, nothing less. Might not even prove that they have the advantage in the MU, just that its doable.

Claiming that a character can't be anywhere near the bottom based off of one losing set by a guy who sometimes sandbags as part of his strategy is silly. Nowhere near enough data to make any assertions that they aren't bottom 10. You can make the claim when the character does work all the way through a tournament, not before.

Let me put it this way: Mewtwo has more proof that he's not bottom 10 than Dr.Mario does thanks to Trela's one tournament run.

I've heard all these arguments here before, and I still don't buy them. I don't normally like using frame data for these types of arguments, since I find it less important than what you see in-practice, but there's no denying it. Doctor Mario isn't even in the same universe as a character like Zelda. He's somewhere in the middle. He has too many good attacks that are fast and link together reasonably well. A ton of characters have attacks that are barely functional, have almost no combo-ability, and have no real kill setups. The only thing these characters even have over Doc is recovery, and even then it's debatable. Until I see something real that tells me Doc is bottom 5, something thats not a bunch of smoke, I'll continue to discount the bandwagon belief.

 

[hypersonicJD]

OH MY GOD NAIRO.

3-0'D MR.R HOLY COW! D:

 

[the king of murder]

There was another tourney where a Doc supposedly did great. I think it was 2ManyCooks placing 7th in a big tourney.

http://tcegcon2015.challonge.com/S4T32TCEG2015

Don't know the details.

 

[TTTTTsd]

There was another tourney where a Doc supposedly did great. I think it was 2ManyCooks placing 7th in a big tourney.

http://tcegcon2015.challonge.com/S4T32TCEG2015

Don't know the details.

I was about to cite the fact that doc has more results than Mewtwo at this point (to my knowledge) and use this as the latest one where he took Top 8 going mostly Doc in a multi-regional that had a lot of Canada's best players and then some. 2Manycooks is the homie.

 

[thehard]

Nairo is on ****ing fire.

 

[Djent]

My internet is once again taking a dump; how are Nairo and ESAM doing?

 

[Pazx]

super cool TOing tip: run winners finals before losers semis so you don't have esam going into losers finals immediately after suffering a mentally draining loss to the best player in the world

 

[Djent]

So he lost? LOL

 

[Nobie]

super cool TOing tip: run winners finals before losers semis so you don't have esam going into losers finals immediately after suffering a mentally draining loss to the best player in the world

Esports often prioritizes what order of matches would be hypest over the condition of the players. Viewers > Players in this case.

 

[Xeze]

Can we just all agree how stupid Sheiks recovery is? Surviving that Pikachu Thunder spike like she was Pit.

 

[Ghostbone]

Sheik's recovery has always been widely considered to be one of the best recoveries in the game (only MK, G&W and Pikachu are really in contention)

 

[wedl!!]

Know that ebola talk? Know who ended it? NAIRO'S DOC.

 

[Ghostbone]

Doc vs Samus in loser's finals
lol smash4

 

[|RK|]

Did I just see Samus vs Dr. Mario in Losers finals?

 

[Djent]

OK, that last set I actually caught. It's so ****ing cool that a got Nairo into Grands. While his records against ESAM and Mr-R are spotty, he is too great a player to have any true "demons" besides ZeRo (who is practically Satan himself).

 

[NotLiquid]

Did I just see Samus vs Dr. Mario in Losers finals?

Low tiers ain't dead yet baby!
Doc moving up!

 

[Xeze]

Samus baby. And Nairo proving that Doc isn't bottom tier.

 

[TTTTTsd]

So like....the first time Nairo's beaten ESam in a set and guess who?

That was pretty cool.

 

[Blobface]

So let's look at this again.

Nairo uses ZSS against Esam, loses. Uses Doc, wins.
Esam uses Pika against Dr. Nairio, loses. Uses Samus, does way better.

Tires don exits.

 

[Ghostbone]

Have Zero and Nairo played on this patch before?
Interesting to see how the shield changes affect the matchup.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I think Pikachu is susceptible to Doc's best throw setups. D-Throw Fair was working CONSISTENTLY on him.

ALRIGHTTTT

 

[Xeze]

So let's look at this again.

Nairo uses ZSS against Esam, loses. Uses Doc, wins.
Esam uses Pika against Dr. Nairio, loses. Uses Samus, does way better.

Tires don exits.

That's probably called MU inexperience

 

[wedl!!]

The king, oh how he bleeds!

...

And then Nario gets two-stocked by Diddy.

 

[TTTTTsd]

FYI Doc D-Throw > Fair is a true combo on Pika at the right percents.

 

[Apeirohaon]

I think Nairo and ESAM would really benefit from having a top-tier seconadary. Honestly ZeRo has been saved by the ability to switch to Diddy many times

 

[Pazx]

Cool fun vsing diddy tip: if he uthrows you at highish percents, airdodge. If he reads the airdodge, you eat like... 6-10% and live. This obviously doesn't apply if there's a platform right below you. Nairo dying to Zero's somewhat stale uair in game 4 (?) doesn't quite look right to me, even accounting for staling, freshness bonuses and rage it is very very rare for uthrow uair to kill on a normal stage with optimal DI and buffered airdodges.

Also, Diddy beats ZSS and I'm glad ZeRo is finally using him in this matchup.

 

[Gawain]

Are we about to witness the combo breaker?

EDIT: C-C-C-C-C-COMBO BREAKER!

 

[Bribery]

HE DID IT !!!!

 

[wedl!!]

The old king is dead! Long live the king.

 

[|RK|]

And now, there are two gods.

 

[Gunla]

OH.

MY.

GOD.

Nairo, you are truly balling. Such a damn beautiful second set. He went on FIRE, not even going to game 5, 2 stocked the last game. I am amazed.