[Competitive Discussion] Let's learn together

[StripedNinja]

I know this has been touched on here and there but thought it was worth bringing up again, I've been becoming pretty consistent with my whisle armor and as I do I'm realizing how important it is. It makes landing much easier in some matchups and can really add another creative level to your punish game. Anyone not using it should start.

 

[koken]

I know this has been touched on here and there but thought it was worth bringing up again, I've been becoming pretty consistent with my whisle armor and as I do I'm realizing how important it is. It makes landing much easier in some matchups and can really add another creative level to your punish game. Anyone not using it should start.

Now that you are mastering the whistle, rate the difficulty please from 1 to 10.
I'm still having issues with it. I always do it late or too early, just can't find the exact time yet.
I prefer air dodge because it gives me more security but I would love to be able to whistle.

 

[StripedNinja]

Now that you are mastering the whistle, rate the difficulty please from 1 to 10.
I'm still having issues with it. I always do it late or too early, just can't find the exact time yet.
I prefer air dodge because it gives me more security but I would love to be able to whistle.

Mm, I guess like a 6. One thing to note is it doesn't really work against multihit moves, so you have to think about your opponents options when you whisle. I think the best way to learn is just to spend a decent amount of matches trying to whistle any move you see coming that you can, even if it's like dumb for the situation. I am still learning this though but I've gotten solid enough that I feel I can use it in tornaments.

 

[AncientBaby]

Now that you are mastering the whistle, rate the difficulty please from 1 to 10.
I'm still having issues with it. I always do it late or too early, just can't find the exact time yet.
I prefer air dodge because it gives me more security but I would love to be able to whistle.

Whistle armor is active on frames 6-12. In other words, it's up the second 10th of a second (the first 1/10 is prep, the 2nd 1/10 has armor, after that is endlag). If you need a visual cue to help, that's about when Olimar's hand just gets to the whistle.

It's tough at first, but once you get the rhythm, as long as you can read your opponent's timing, it can be pretty helpful.

 

[koken]

Thank you StripedNinja and AncientBaby .
I will keep working on mastering this :3.

 

[Blue Banana]

New patch has dropped today. Any noticeable changes on Olimar?

 

[StripedNinja]

New patch has dropped today. Any noticeable changes on Olimar?

Been testing on 3DS, nothing appears different.

 

[koken]

Kon said the throws where affected by a nerf of 1% each one.
Looking for the post to link it.

 

[Blue Banana]

Kon said the throws where affected by a nerf of 1% each one.
Looking for the post to link it.

Getting conflicting results with Dthrow. Testing on 1.1.1 3DS in training mode:
R: 6%
Y: 8%
B: 12%
W: 7%
P: 8%
In other words, Dthrow damage seems to be completely unchanged.

 

[Myran]

Yeah I just checked recently, everything is unchanged for me as well. I did find out a nice fact though. So the first small hit of dthrow actually is affected by the Pikmin's attack multiplier. So white will do 0.8, while purple does 1.4, but the following damage is multiplied by the throw multiplier.

 

[koken]

Yeah I just checked recently, everything is unchanged for me as well. I did find out a nice fact though. So the first small hit of dthrow actually is affected by the Pikmin's attack multiplier. So white will do 0.8, while purple does 1.4, but the following damage is multiplied by the throw multiplier.

Could we consider this as a buff?

 

[Myran]

No, it was always in the game I'm pretty sure. It just happened to be figured out now, it doesn't really change anything since dthrow still does the same overall damage as always.

Except red's apparently don't do this, they just do the normal 1 damage it seems.

 

[Flawlessh]

in dan's datadump http://opensa.dantarion.com/s4/mastercore3/diff/144-to-160/pikmin
it has this for fair and bair

-?SetBit(0x2000007a)
+?SetBit(0x2000007c)

basically that "a" turned into a "c". no idea what it means, any1 know?

 

[Myran]

in dan's datadump http://opensa.dantarion.com/s4/mastercore3/diff/144-to-160/pikmin
it has this for fair and bair

-?SetBit(0x2000007a)
+?SetBit(0x2000007c)

basically that "a" turned into a "c". no idea what it means, any1 know?

I have no idea what that means, could someone tag him or someone who could explain?

 

[Freezie KO]

Worth noting is that shield stun has been universally altered. It's complicated, but looks to be about 3 extra frames on average. Also, rolls and air dodges may have gotten an extra frame of vulnerability.

Olimar mains, how does shield stun affect your game? I can't tell if this is going to be good for Olimar since pivots are often used instead of standing still and shielding, or if it's bad because, well, shield is a good option when we get abused by rushdown.

 

[StripedNinja]

Worth noting is that shield stun has been universally altered. It's complicated, but looks to be about 3 extra frames on average. Also, rolls and air dodges may have gotten an extra frame of vulnerability.

Olimar mains, how does shield stun affect your game? I can't tell if this is going to be good for Olimar since pivots are often used instead of standing still and shielding, or if it's bad because, well, shield is a good option when we get abused by rushdown.

Olimar mains should really learn how to powershield anyway, I would think this would generally help us more but I'll need to test it for a while to see

 

[koken]

This could be beneficial in order to landing with Nair against a shielding opponent.
But is really too soon to conclude something.

 

[Blue Banana]

Might be too early to ask about it since it's been only a day, but is there anything noticeably different in how Oli plays with the altered shieldstun mechanics? I played for about 3 hours in a Smashfest last night, but I didn't really find anything noteworthy, though it's probably because nobody's really using shield against me.

Going off from the competitive discussion forum, it seems like yellows and purples benefit a lot from the mechanics. Since apparently attacks with hitlag modifiers, i.e. electric attacks, are factored into shieldstun, yellow smashes should be safer on shield, as well as purple smashes just because they hit hard. Not sure how it'd affect Side-B because only purples would really benefit from it; other colors don't have the same benefit because people would ignore them or kill them rather than shield.

I'm really thinking about the possible benefit to double purple Dsmash on shield since it does a lot of shield damage.

 

[StripedNinja]

Might be too early to ask about it since it's been only a day, but is there anything noticeably different in how Oli plays with the altered shieldstun mechanics? I played for about 3 hours in a Smashfest last night, but I didn't really find anything noteworthy, though it's probably because nobody's really using shield against me.

Going off from the competitive discussion forum, it seems like yellows and purples benefit a lot from the mechanics. Since apparently attacks with hitlag modifiers, i.e. electric attacks, are factored into shieldstun, yellow smashes should be safer on shield, as well as purple smashes just because they hit hard. Not sure how it'd affect Side-B because only purples would really benefit from it; other colors don't have the same benefit because people would ignore them or kill them rather than shield.

I'm really thinking about the possible benefit to double purple Dsmash on shield since it does a lot of shield damage.

Doesn't feel real significant from what Ive played. Some things are a little safer but all in all its the same Olimar.

 

[Myran]

I have been theorycrafting some shield break setups. White, yellow, and purple could be a dangerous lineup if that's the case. It's pretty easy to hit with both Pikmin of a dsmash if you use purple/yellow, and if you tack a white on before hand it can make shielding dangerous.

 

[koken]

It would be interesting to see that coming out Myran, because seems hard to commit.

About my theory of the landing Nair, it's already rejected, there aren't enough changes to benefit highly from it u.u .

 

[Blue Banana]

Does anyone feel like Oli's smashes are less safe on shield than before? According to this thread, apparently the new way of how shieldstun is calculated with projectiles along with some sort of hitlag modifier that Oli's smashes have results in them being less safe.

 

[koken]

Does anyone feel like Oli's smashes are less safe on shield than before? According to this thread, apparently the new way of how shieldstun is calculated with projectiles along with some sort of hitlag modifier that Oli's smashes have results in them being less safe.

I haven't played as before and I did notice something like that, but I supposed to be just my imagination or something else.
I feel like Olimar react slower against a shield than before, but I can confirm we inflict more shield damage.

Maybe some kind of trade-off: slower reaction against hitting a shield but doing more shield damage.

Can someone confirm or express his opinion?

To be honest, I have not broken any shield anyway so ... seems like a nerf to me :/.

 

[Angbad]

running jab jab grab is so good.

2 pikmin or less do a run then let go do neutral b to cancel stop animation then cancel neutral b into jab jab so good

 

[koken]

running jab jab grab is so good.

2 pikmin or less do a run then let go do neutral b to cancel stop animation then cancel neutral b into jab jab so good

I gave it a try as soon as you posted and seems a magnificent trap/set-up/bait.

Also I have been messing around with the B-Reversal and I'm surprised. Its uses are so damn good as a bait too!
I haven't been able to use it as a landing option yet so I'm working on that.

How?
Just run to your enemy, short hop, B-Reversal and act accordingly to your enemy's decision. May be a Fsmash, may be a pivot grab or even a re-run without the B-reversal.

Can someone else confirm this information :D?

 

[AncientBaby]

I gave it a try as soon as you posted and seems a magnificent trap/set-up/bait.

Also I have been messing around with the B-Reversal and I'm surprised. Its uses are so damn good as a bait too!
I haven't been able to use it as a landing option yet so I'm working on that.

How?
Just run to your enemy, short hop, B-Reversal and act accordingly to your enemy's decision. May be a Fsmash, may be a pivot grab or even a re-run without the B-reversal.

Can someone else confirm this information :D?

B-reverse pluck is a really good tool because the pluck autocancels on landing, so you can do whatever you need after. Like you were saying, b-reverse pluck after a short hop is a good way to recognize what they would do if they think you're coming at them with an aerial so you can act accordingly later.

If they recognize that you like to do the b-reverse pluck often, they can punish it because in a shorthop, you won't have time to use an aerial after the pluck (or the timing is just very strict and I haven't gotten it), then you should start mixing it up with different aerials, empty landings (also called tomahawks), or even do a pluck without b-reversing just to mess with them and potentially make them panic so you will know what they do in situations like that.

B-reversed plucks are also helpful when you're trying to get back to the ground from up high because they will not always be able to catch up to you after you boomerang around. Mix those in with aerials and airdodges so you aren't too predictable while you return to stage.

 

[koken]

B-reverse pluck is a really good tool because the pluck autocancels on landing, so you can do whatever you need after. Like you were saying, b-reverse pluck after a short hop is a good way to recognize what they would do if they think you're coming at them with an aerial so you can act accordingly later.

If they recognize that you like to do the b-reverse pluck often, they can punish it because in a shorthop, you won't have time to use an aerial after the pluck (or the timing is just very strict and I haven't gotten it), then you should start mixing it up with different aerials, empty landings (also called tomahawks), or even do a pluck without b-reversing just to mess with them and potentially make them panic so you will know what they do in situations like that.

B-reversed plucks are also helpful when you're trying to get back to the ground from up high because they will not always be able to catch up to you after you boomerang around. Mix those in with aerials and airdodges so you aren't too predictable while you return to stage.

Thank you a lot for this, actually you give me quite more thoughts on how to apply the move. Thank you so much :D.

About the shorthop b-reversal you can do Up-B. Helps against dash attacks.

 

[The Green Lanyard]

Mm, I guess like a 6. One thing to note is it doesn't really work against multihit moves, so you have to think about your opponents options when you whisle. I think the best way to learn is just to spend a decent amount of matches trying to whistle any move you see coming that you can, even if it's like dumb for the situation. I am still learning this though but I've gotten solid enough that I feel I can use it in tornaments.

There are some multihit moves where it could work. In training mode, I've been able to whistle through Sheik's shorthopped up-air. It won't work in the down-throw -> immediate up-air kill setup (since it comes out slower than air-dodging), but maybe it could work if they do a delayed up-air one expecting an airdodge and punish? I haven't tested the delayed up-air setup.

I've also whistled through Little Mac's up-B in match. Whistle also works through Palutena's auto-reticule. There may be some other multihit moves where it's useful, too.

 

[koken]

There are some multihit moves where it could work. In training mode, I've been able to whistle through Sheik's shorthopped up-air. It won't work in the down-throw -> immediate up-air kill setup (since it comes out slower than air-dodging), but maybe it could work if they do a delayed up-air one expecting an airdodge and punish? I haven't tested the delayed up-air setup.

I've also whistled through Little Mac's up-B in match. Whistle also works through Palutena's auto-reticule. There may be some other multihit moves where it's useful, too.

It seems pretty odd what you are saying.

The maths are conclusive: if the hitboxes move are active during the 6 frames (there are 6 frames right?) of the immunity of whistle, will work.

Or is there something new in the recent patch and I'm the last to know...

 

[Myran]

I won't go into to much detail currently since I'm still experimenting heavily with practical applications, but you guys should toy around with desync smashes more often. I'm brainstorming ways to allow it to punish some things in ways we normally couldn't. I'll let you know more as I work on it.

P.S. if you do decide to test it, it can be very difficult to consistently perform.

 

[Blue Banana]

I won't go into to much detail currently since I'm still experimenting heavily with practical applications, but you guys should toy around with desync smashes more often. I'm brainstorming ways to allow it to punish some things in ways we normally couldn't. I'll let you know more as I work on it.

P.S. if you do decide to test it, it can be very difficult to consistently perform.

I've played and seen enough of how useful desync smashes are that the only challenge with using them is making them as practical as possible.

Also you double posted.

 

[Myran]

Thanks for letting me know, my mouse double clicks sometimes.

 

[The Green Lanyard]

It seems pretty odd what you are saying.

The maths are conclusive: if the hitboxes move are active during the 6 frames (there are 6 frames right?) of the immunity of whistle, will work.

Or is there something new in the recent patch and I'm the last to know...

I've had it happen with Sheik and Little Mac before 1.1.1. I will say that I fast-fall through the aerial moves, so maybe that helps with it?

Regardless, here's a video demoing it with Palutena's auto-reticule:

Notice that when he's hit normally, he's pushed back a bit. When I use the whistle-armor, he isn't pushed back at all, and the actual whistle doesn't come out 'til the auto-reticule ends.

I don't have enough hands to demo it in real-time for Sheik's up-air and Little Mac's up-B, nor the video-capture equipment to record training mode, but if any of you do, feel free to try it with them and show it off.

 

[StripedNinja]

There are some multihit moves where it could work. In training mode, I've been able to whistle through Sheik's shorthopped up-air. It won't work in the down-throw -> immediate up-air kill setup (since it comes out slower than air-dodging), but maybe it could work if they do a delayed up-air one expecting an airdodge and punish? I haven't tested the delayed up-air setup.

I've also whistled through Little Mac's up-B in match. Whistle also works through Palutena's auto-reticule. There may be some other multihit moves where it's useful, too.

Yah well that's when its best used imo, to get out of what would be 50 50 situations

 

[Blue Banana]

Notice that when he's hit normally, he's pushed back a bit. When I use the whistle-armor, he isn't pushed back at all, and the actual whistle doesn't come out 'til the auto-reticule ends.

Super armor causes the character to not flinch, so that's why if Olimar gets hit during whistle during the super armor frames, he does not get pushed back.
That said, it looks like the projectiles induce enough hitstun on Olimar and come fast enough such that the armor frames are "extended" enough to last through the whole attack.


Is anyone testing out red Uthrow to double jump purple Uair? I've been messing around with it on Training mode, and I was able to get it to register as a true combo. I think it might have potential as a somewhat reliable KO confirm. It may be more useful than red Dthrow to purple Uair because:
1) It KOes around 15-20% earlier than the Dthrow combo because Uthrow launches the opponent vertically higher than Dthrow does. As a comparison, with the training dummy set to Mega Man, the Uthrow combo can KO around 105-110% compared to Dthrow, which KOes around 125-145%. Dthrow probably has a wider KO percentage range since pulling off the Uthrow combo is somewhat strict.

2) Uthrow launches the opponent more vertically than Dthrow; I think it launches straight up with no DI. If I'm right, then it's harder for the opponent to DI away from the followup Uair unlike Dthrow, which launches at a more horizontal angle that allows for horizontal vectoring. This means that Olimar doesn't need to move around too much to get the followup, which is good considering his mobility.

That being said, there were a few problems that I found with this that make me feel like it's only somewhat reliable.
1) Just like with the Dthrow combo, it's somewhat dependent on character size, fall speed, and weight. Some characters are easy enough to get the game to register the Uthrow combo as true, while others are impossible. A character like R.O.B. is easier to followup with Uair--KO'ing at ~99-100%--because of his large frame. A fast faller like Fox can KO'ed starting around 82% despite his small frame. A tall person like Lucina can be reliably comboed around 90-95%. Captain Falcon can be KOed around 105-110%

Some characters seem impossible to register the combo as true, like Peach (too floaty), Kirby (too small and floaty), Rosalina/Mewtwo (too floaty despite their tall frames), and Mario (small frame, also Nair), but this could be remedied by making Uthrow stale. Uthrow can still be used in the same way as Dthrow at low percents since you can Fair out of it, so there are multiple chances to stale it. This brings up the next point.

2) Using Uthrow as a combo starter/KO confirm weakens its potential as a KO throw. Make Uthrow stale makes it easier to combo into Uair, but it also may weaken blue Uthrow enough that it'd KO later than it usually does.

3) Doing the combo correctly is a bit strict. You need to double jump at the right time so that Uair will barely hit the opponent. In my testing, I sometimes followup with the Uair a little too late, and it doesn't register as a true combo. This point ties in with point 1 due to how character traits influence combo reliability, but it also ties in with the next point.

4) The purple Pikmin won't always follow up with you as you jump. I'd say this is the most important thing to consider when using this combo because it makes the whole combo a bit unreliable in the first place. Sometimes, after you use Uthrow and jump, the Pikmin will still stay on the ground for a moment before they follow up with you. Thus, when you use Uair, Olimar might be just swinging empty air instead of a purple in his hand. When it occurs is random, but it happens often enough that it hurts the viability of the combo. I don't know how to exactly fix this problem, as it's a problem with how Pikmin are programmed in the game, but it may be because I'm testing on the 3DS version.

EDIT: It seems that doing pivot grabs seems to make the chance of the Pikmin not following you less likely. I've been able to almost constantly get the Pikmin to follow me for the Uair with pivot grabs.

Despite it's potential problems, I think the Uthrow combo is useful enough to start using Uthrow as a combo throw, because it gives Olimar another semi-reliable KO confirm. I haven't really thought about the potential of this because I brushed away the idea of using Uthrow as a combo throw.

Any thoughts/tests is appreciated since this is still mostly theory.

 

[Slashster]

I don't know if this has been talked about before, but in a match I just had I threw pikmin on R.O.B's gyro, and when he picked it up the rob got flinched from the Pikmin's attack which normally doesn't happen. I don't know of it works on pacman and his fruits, but I assume it would. It's a neat thing to do as it helps setup for a kill, though I've found it doesn't normally hit unless they turn around, I haven't tested this a lot though but I guess it's good to know.
Though if I may ask a question, I haven't seen anything on this browsing through here, do pikmin buds/flowers get ANY benefit at all? Or are they only for looks?

 

[-The Gucci Fairy-]

I don't know if this has been talked about before, but in a match I just had I threw pikmin on R.O.B's gyro, and when he picked it up the rob got flinched from the Pikmin's attack which normally doesn't happen. I don't know of it works on pacman and his fruits, but I assume it would. It's a neat thing to do as it helps setup for a kill, though I've found it doesn't normally hit unless they turn around, I haven't tested this a lot though but I guess it's good to know.
Though if I may ask a question, I haven't seen anything on this browsing through here, do pikmin buds/flowers get ANY benefit at all? Or are they only for looks?

The flowers and buds on pikmin is purely asthetic. If ROB picks up the gyro whe the pikmin is hitting it and creating a hitbox onto the gyro, it will put him in a short hitstun, which is what you are talking about, I suppose the same would apply to pacman's fruit.

 

[Slashster]

The flowers and buds on pikmin is purely asthetic. If ROB picks up the gyro whe the pikmin is hitting it and creating a hitbox onto the gyro, it will put him in a short hitstun, which is what you are talking about, I suppose the same would apply to pacman's fruit.

Thanks fo clearing that up ^^
At least there isn't much of a drawback for slapping a pikmin on there then, it could lead to a free grab or usmash which is nice. I still find this match up a pain though, but personally I just struggle against robs.

 

[The Green Lanyard]

I won't go into to much detail currently since I'm still experimenting heavily with practical applications, but you guys should toy around with desync smashes more often. I'm brainstorming ways to allow it to punish some things in ways we normally couldn't. I'll let you know more as I work on it.

P.S. if you do decide to test it, it can be very difficult to consistently perform.

Any tips on the timing if I'm using training in 1/4 speed (Hold L)? I'm trying to do the face away from opponent -> down-smash -> opponent hits pikmin -> pivot f-smash setup you had in the megaman video, but the f-smash pikmin keeps snapping back to me.

 

[Myran]

Any tips on the timing if I'm using training in 1/4 speed (Hold L)? I'm trying to do the face away from opponent -> down-smash -> opponent hits pikmin -> pivot f-smash setup you had in the megaman video, but the f-smash pikmin keeps snapping back to me.

The best way to get used to how it works is to do it off a pluck. Try having a Sheik nair above you while falling, then pluck a Pikmin and wait just a little bit for it to travel some vertical distance. Then once it's gotten near the Sheik's nair use a smash and it'll do it from that spot since the nair hit's it. I'm still experimenting with this tech to find more consistent ways to get it.