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Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

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  • Total voters
    584

Frihetsanka

Smash Champion
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Sonix seems like he has Aegis figured out, he makes that MU look losing for Aegis with how he played versus MkLeo and Sparg0. Sonic is such a strong character, and Sonix is an incredible player.

Anyways, sounds like Sparg0 had to win GOML in order to have a shot at #1 this mid-season, so congratulations to acola for #1! Twitter is going to hate that.

How many Steves in top 32? Just Talking Ben (aka Syrup)?

Tilde had one of the easiest brackets for top 3 at a supermajor in a long time. Don't get me wrong, he's a really skilled player, but those are not the wins you'd expect for someone placing #3 at a supermajor (Kurama being his most notable win).
 

Hippieslayer

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Damn. That was convincing.

Well played by Sonix. Kind of odd seeing Sparg0 falling into the Pyra trap against Sonic of all characters.

Sonix has been having regular brutal, painful, drawn out, sets vs Capitancito ever since the latter moved to vegas, they've been going back and forth on each other. This looked easy for Sonix compared to those sets.

Will be interesting to see what happens now. I'm not convinced that Aegis can't get it done. There were some odd decisions by Sparg0. But if not Aegis, then what?
 
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Cheryl~

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I love seeing Sonix write the storybook on his own character; he's said multiple times before that Sonic is insanely good, has few if none losing matchups if played right and optimized, and just like that he's starting to prove it right every time he plays. Half a year ago I would've said that Sonic beating Aegis isn't realistic and Sonix was just pumping himself up too hard, but now... potentially yeah, damn. He's also done this to the Roy matchup which was considered to be one of Sonic's few losing ones like a year ago... and then he just... didn't lose to top Roys anymore. I feel like the only few sketch matchups left for Sonix are Pikachu and Fox, the latter which has been his major thorn for a while now through Light (and even then he did get one set win at Momocon).
 

NairWizard

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Beating both Leo and sparg0 at the same tournament is incredibly hard. Going on to win the tournament after that is even harder. To do that, you need to be able to deal with patient midrange spacing playstyles (Leo) and aggressive midrange spacing playstyles (sparg0), which are not only hard to master counterplay against but require completely different approaches. You also need to have general consistency on top of that to close the tournament out.

The list of people who have beaten both Leo and sparg0 at a tournament and also won the tournament is vanishingly small... in fact, I believe it's only been Tweek, until now, at LMMM. Gluto (Summit 5) and Jakal (Crown) have had the pleasure of beating both at the same event, but only Tweek went on to win the event.

And now Sonix.

I'll also add that he beat Dabuz here, who is a completely different kind of player too (mid-long-range defensive zoning).
 

NairWizard

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I love seeing Sonix write the storybook on his own character; he's said multiple times before that Sonic is insanely good, has few if none losing matchups if played right and optimized, and just like that he's starting to prove it right every time he plays. Half a year ago I would've said that Sonic beating Aegis isn't realistic and Sonix was just pumping himself up too hard, but now... potentially yeah, damn. He's also done this to the Roy matchup which was considered to be one of Sonic's few losing ones like a year ago... and then he just... didn't lose to top Roys anymore. I feel like the only few sketch matchups left for Sonix are Pikachu and Fox, the latter which has been his major thorn for a while now through Light (and even then he did get one set win at Momocon).
Also double-posting because I just saw this, but the Sonic-Pikachu matchup is abysmal for Pikachu imo. ESAM would not win a match against present-day Sonix. That matchup is actually garbage if the Sonic knows when to jump and how to edgeguard QA.
 

Frihetsanka

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Cosmos is picking up Inkling as a main, Corrin as a secondary, and keeping Aegis around for a few players/MUs. He talked about it on Twitter a little and went more into depth on his stream and in a video with Light and Nairo. It'll be interesting to see how well he'll do, he's been practicing more Corrin than Inkling lately so that one is more likely to come out first, but he seems interested in bringing out the Inkling eventually. He said he'll go Aegis + Corrin for Super Smash Factor so we'll see soon enough!
 

NairWizard

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Let me tell you what Aegis players are doing wrong. It's really simple. When you're in the corner, don't airdodge in, don't stay Pyra. Find a moment to jump back to ledge and switch to Mythra. The threat of Foresight is a really strong tool to get out of the corner. It's really most of the reason to play Aegis, because they don't get trapped at corner like so many others do.
 

Hydreigonfan01

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Results for Smash Factor X, a Supermajor in Mexico.

1. Sparg0 :ultcloud::ultmythra::ultbylethf:
2. Sonix :ultsonic:
3. Shuton :ultolimar: :ultmythra:
4. Glutonny :ultwario:
5. MkLeo :ultjoker::ultbyleth::ultmythra:
5. Sisqui :ultdarksamus::ultsamus:
7. Meme :ultyoshi:
7. Kameme :ultsora: :ultmegaman:
9. Maister :ultgnw:
9. Tweek :ultdiddy:
9. Tea :ultpacman: :ultkazuya:
9. AlanDiss :ultsnake:
13. ShinyMark :ultpikachu:
13. Skyjay :ultincineroar:
13. MKBigBoss :ultrob:
13. Machu :ultrob:
17. LeoN :ultbowser:
17. Sho :ultmetaknight: :ultgnw:
17. AndresFn :ult_terry:
17. SHADIC :ultcorrinf:
17. WaKa :ultluigi:
17. Whisky :ultrobin:
17. MuteAce :ultpeach:
17. BassMage :ultjigglypuff:
25. Rox :ultsheik: :ultkazuya:
25. Chag :ultpalutena:
25. Joker :ultsamus:
25. Many :ultalex:
25. JaZaR :ultdoc: :ultlucas:
25. Suadero :ultsteve: :ultluigi: :ultken: :ultdoc:
25. Zaul :ult_terry:
25. Pollitopio :ultbowser: :ultgnw:

Sparg0 gets the runback over Sonix, beating him twice, as well as getting the runback against MkLeo's :ultjoker: and played against and beaten Kameme for the first time post-quarantine. In addition, Meme is the second :ultyoshi: to make top 8 at a supermajor behind Yoshidora. AlanDiss pops off beating numerous top 15-20 players in Zomba and MuteAce to get 9th, losing to only two of the best in Japan. Sonix, Shuton, Glutonny and Kameme are as consistent as ever.
 
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NairWizard

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Any sets from Smash Factor or GOML people would care to see analyzed? I know I skipped the Skyjay-Riddles set from Collision, but that's because it's a hard set to analyze given the nature of the characters - or rather, what I mean is that looking at just one game won't give you the full picture, since you need to understand the back-and-forth conditioning into reads over the course of the set. I'll get back to it later when I've figured out a condensed way to package up the whole set.
 
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Frihetsanka

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SHADIC was so close to beating ShinyMark, and then he had to face Tweek in losers, rough. Cosmos got upset early and lost to Zomba for 49th, rough. Zomba got upset twice.

Top 8 had Sparg0, MkLeo, and Meme from Mexico, Glutonny and Sisqui from Europe, Shuton and Kameme from Japan, and Sonix from the Dominican Republic. No one from the US. Interesting how that turned out. And only one American in top 16, Tweek (although SHADIC was fairly close, if he had beaten ShinyMark he would've had a decent chance of getting top 16). Sho, BassMage, and MuteAce also got 17th.
 

Hydreigonfan01

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Any sets from Smash Factor or GOML people would care to see analyzed? I know I skipped the Skyjay-Riddles set from Collision, but that's because it's a hard set to analyze given the nature of the characters - or rather, what I mean is that looking at just one game won't give you the full picture, since you need to understand the back-and-forth conditioning into reads over the course of the set. I'll get back to it later when I've figured out a condensed way to package up the whole set.
MkLeo vs Sparg0 at Smash Factor please.
 

NairWizard

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Before I get into the set, some background on Leo vs. sparg0: since Mainstage 2021, Leo has only beaten sparg0 when sparg0 didn't anticipate Leo's character choice in advance. Sets Leo has won since then:

  • SWT 2021 - Leo used Aegis, which sparg0 was very underprepared for (see also his loss to Cosmos)
  • RETA -- used Corrin for the first time and beat sparg0. Note that Gluto also lost to Leo's Corrin here, but Leo never used Corrin against Gluto again because they played friendlies after the tournament and Leo thought the matchup was "impossible" once Gluto learned it
  • Genesis 8 -- Leo used Byleth, after making sparg0 expect the Corrin
  • Major Upset -- Leo used Aegis unexpectedly, but sparg0 learned the MU and won it in Grands.
  • Crown the Third -- Leo used Joker unexpectedly

Sets sparg0 won since then:
  • Mainstage first set - expected the Byleth.
  • Summit 4 - expected the Byleth
  • Collision - expected the Byleth
  • Major Upset - after adjusting to the Aegis
  • Smash Factor X - expected the Joker

So to really understand Leo vs. sparg0, you have to understand that sparg0 is just fundamentally better at studying their games than Leo, and always has extra adaptation reserved in the tank for mid-set compared to Leo.

We'll have to take a look at the Crown set and then dive into their Smash Factor set to really understand how that prep and adaptation came into play.

Here's the link to their Crown set.


Looking at their Crown set, games 3-4, let's go over what won Leo the games vs. Cloud. Of course, you have the two surface-level observations that everyone makes, the edgeguarding on Cloud's high recovery and the Rebel's Guard held firmly in front of sparg0's aggression, but let's go a bit deeper. These are the three things that I saw win the set:

1. Short hop Gun. The first thing you'll notice is that sparg0 is trying to whiff punish Leo's approaches with pivot Cross Slash, as well as space b-airs on Joker's shield. Neither of these tactics work very well. The reason is pretty much Gun. The Gun mixup at 7:58 is the first crack in this strategy, and it proves effective for the duration of the two games. Gun interrupts Cloud during both his jump and Cross Slash animations, and leaves Joker in an advantaged position. At 8:01, it leads to Leo getting a free n-air that almost costs sparg0 the stock from dragdown f-air1 f-smash. At 10:05 you'll see another example of Gun interrupting sparg0's chosen strategy.

2. Joker's insane hurtbox, allowing for precise whiff punishes on Cloud f-air such as 9:15. Joker tucks his legs behind him when he jumps -- with non-retreating jumps, his hurtbox is like a tiny Kirby-sized ball, so he can cleanly whiff punish huge sword aerials with a f-air1 and find kills. Joker's hurtbox also allows Leo to go for plays like the one at 9:23, where he n-airs in response to Cross Slash, lands, shields, and grabs on reaction to the spotdodge.

3. Cloud's difficulty landing against Joker. sparg0 is used to drifting in toward the middle of the stage in most matchups, especially on PS2, but in this MU it's very hard. Regardless of Cloud's aerial mobility, his big lingering hitboxes in up-air and d-air are very vulnerable to Rebel's Guard, so he has to be careful when drifting down. You can see how Leo gets the kill soon after 9:23, abusing this difficulty with quick Joker up-airs and the wait on the platform to Rebel's Guard the Cloud up-air and finish sparg0.

Now let's take a look at their Smash Factor set with these few things in mind.


In game 1, you'll notice a major change in sparg0's gameplay in that he uses more shield; he up-bs Joker n-airs on reaction so that Leo is encouraged to use Joker's dash grab, and then punishes whiffed grabs using Cross Slash or b-air. This overall strategy works pretty well compared to the last attempt. Joker has a hard time punishing up-b out of shield. Even though Leo consistently SDIs the up-b to get out of it, Joker can't land in time to reversal sparg0 because Joker doesn't have the hitboxes that you have with Corrin or Byleth. sparg0 realized this from the last set and so you'll see him mix in quite a bit of shield. In fact, that is his overarching strategy in the set, to dash in and shield against Joker aerials.

But actually, it works even better than it should because of what Leo himself is doing. In game 1, as well as the whole set, Leo is doing something highly unusual, both for the matchup and for the situations they find themselves in: he's using a lot of dash attacks and d-tilts. Right at the beginning of the match, at 0:24, Leo runs in to dash attack a shielding sparg0. This decision is quite strange. Here, Leo might not have expected shield, but even if he didn't, this was a weird moment to dash attack and try to whiff punish a Cloud b-air. sparg0 showed absolutely no indication of vulnerability and the spacing was not quite right for it. Leo seems to be trying to whiff punish Cloud more actively than in the last set as a sort of preemptive counter-adaptation, and to play faster in general, but it has mixed results and clearly loses him the first game. At 3:50, game 1 ends the same way it began -- an overzealous dash attack into a shield.

sparg0's use of shield coupled with Leo's failed, aggressive attempts to whiff punish are costing him the set.

sparg0 maintains his strategy in game 2. At the start, 4:46, Leo starts his short hop Gun strat, but sparg0 doesn't give up the jump and doesn't enter into any Cross Slash animations like he did at the Crown set. Instead, sparg0 patiently waits, charges Limit, and dashes in to shield. Leo once again tries to aerial Cloud's shield, but it doesn't matter how safe Joker's aerials are, Cloud up-b is still quite strong against them. So Leo gets up-b'd and starts off on the back foot yet again.

The overzealous dash attacking into shields is still happening, as you can see at 5:21. You have to use deep sinking, delayed b-airs to really even hope to do something here, and mix in tomahawks, and even then you might get up-bed. If Leo doesn't start mixing up his aerials with other options, he's toast.

You'll also notice sparg0's increased use of up-b in general. He uses it to get to ledge from high since Joker has trouble punishing it, he uses it to interrupt Joker's strings (at 7:08, for example), and he uses it in several scramble situations. This is his answer to Joker's hurtbox. Cloud up-b is quite big, and Joker's hitboxes are quite small.

As we see at 7:40, Joker's hurtbox is still as strong as ever though and combined with some smooth movement it does allow Leo to get the second stock (cool clip).

In this game 2, Leo does some interesting ledge trump into no followup to condition sparg0 into a neutral getup that allows Leo to finish the game using Arsense d-smash, but it isn't particularly noteworthy since it only happens in this one game and doesn't have any conditioning followups in games 3 and 4. It doesn't seem like Leo thought through this particular conditioning situation in advance. It probably happened on the fly and then didn't lead to anything after this game.

The overall pattern of the set continues. sparg0 uses a lot of shield, and Leo uses a lot of d-tilt and dash attack. Leo never really finds a conditioning game though for these two moves to give him a consistent edge. sparg0 has realized that Joker can't punish certain spacings of b-air no matter what, so sparg0 just inputs an option immediately after every b-air in a compromising position based on what Leo is most likely to go for. For example, at 9:57, Leo gets a parry on the b-air and tries to follow it up with dash grab (frame 8), but sparg0 spotdodges immediately and punishes instead.

The main adaptation as the set goes on comes from sparg0 rather than Leo. Once Leo sees that burst options aren't working and that sparg0 isn't jumping, he tries fadebacks with Gun, but sparg0 starts dash attacking, and that basically seals the set. For example, the dash attack kill at 10:13 is in response to Leo trying to keep sparg0 cornered with Gun. It's a reversal out of corner disadvantage that leads to the stock, and its foundation was laid in the beginning with sparg0's use of shield conditioning defensive play from Leo. sparg0 is clearly the one with the conditioning gameplan here, and Leo has nothing.

It's pretty much a wash, even if individual games looked close at times. Leo had no clear answer to sparg0's shielding and was overly reliant on dash attack and d-tilt, and once sparg0 mixed up the shield with burst dash attacks to seal stocks, the set was decided. Incredibly one-sided.
 
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NairWizard

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Thread is pretty quiet, so I'm taking the liberty of double posting freely until someone complains.

Any other sets people want to understand?

I can do everything but Bayonetta sets as I have no clue about the character at all.
 

The_Bookworm

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When it comes to Bayonetta sets in the perspective of the Bayo players, playing reactive of the opponent, both in the moment and reading what they would do next is key imo. Bayo's neutral is very lacking: it has always been her primary weakness since 2016, so in order to compensate for it, Bayo players must keep close attention to what the player does at all times. It is of course important to do playing as any character, but it pivotal for her in particular to do so. It is part of what makes playing as her a mental chore, especially when coupled with reading and reacting how players mix up their DI/SDI on her combos.

It is part of why high level Bayo matches can easier skew very much in either player's favor: if the Bayo player is completely into the player's head (and is not in an unfavorable matchup), the match looks dominate and comfortable. When things go wrong for the Bayo player, it is hard for her to reattain the lead, only really recoverable when the Bayo player has the mental fortitude to pay close attention to what the opponent does at all times (or if the opponent makes a fatal mistake, but that applies with any matchup).

At the very least, that is my viewpoint on it, as someone who has been following Bayo's competitive career extensively for years.
 

NairWizard

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Thanks for your view.

The main thing that I don't understand is the DI routes and optimal percent windows for holding center vs. playing corner vs playing on platform against Bayo. That's why I can't do a play by play of any Bloom set. It looks very cool and flashy, but I can't explain the micro-decisions Bloom or his opponent are making. It would be rough approximations.

Stage positioning is the core of any matchup. After that, it's hitbox placement.
 
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Aligo

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If the traditional discourse has slowed down a fair bit, would it be worthwhile looking at the Amiibo meta? A lot of pretty interesting stuff there, and there should be some new developments with the addition of the new Pyra and Mythra amiibo (hopefully there will be a Sora one some time in the future).

 

Aligo

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I guess I'll wait until smash con. This should be a wild tournament.

I know no one wants to watch Sonix vs. acola so I'll do the dirty work and tell you guys who's better at the matchup and what the key moments were.
I wonder if Sakurai will ever address the state of sonic and Steve on his YouTube channel, both seem to be as far from his recommendations as physically possible.
 

The_Bookworm

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I wonder if Sakurai will ever address the state of sonic and Steve on his YouTube channel, both seem to be as far from his recommendations as physically possible.
Unless he plans to talk about the creation process of the individual DLC characters, I doubt he will touch upon then especially in the competitive sphere, and Sonic has been top tier since SSB4 (granted that it took a very long time for him to be seen as top tier in Ultimate) so I doubt that will he will touch upon that as well.
 

Frihetsanka

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The full LumiRank is out now. Unsurprisingly, acola is #1. Apparently Sparg0 would've been #1 if he had won GOML (although barely). Close season, Sparg0 might still be #1

MkLeo #7 and it doesn't even feel that surprising. It doesn't feel like he has the same drive anymore (and he's pretty much said as much himself), although #7 in the world is still really good. Maybe this #7 will give him the incentive he needed to start practicing harder? Or maybe he's content with his current performance, I don't know. #7 in the world is still incredibly good and nothing to be ashamed of. MkLeo is a busted player.

Something worth mentioning is how strong Japan has become. In the spring 2019 PGRU ranking the top 50 looked like this:
33 USA
12 Japan
2 Europe
2 Canada
1 Mexico

Now it looks like this:
13 USA
5 Mexico
4 Europe
3 Canada
1 Dominican Republic

Top 10 spring 2019 PGRU:
7 USA
1 Japan
1 Mexico
1 Canada

Top 10 now:
4 Japan
2 USA
2 Mexico
1 Canada
1 Dominican Republic

Japan being the #1 region is nearly undeniable right now. Some argue that Japan players have an advantage due to having so many majors and supermajors in a geographically small country, and that's true. It's easier to become a top player in Japan compared to, say, Sweden or Australia. Even so, Japanese players who travel tend to do well, and when players from other countries travel to Japan they often struggle vs strong Japanese players. The region is increidbly strong.
 

Dan Quixote

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Oh I didn't know it changed its name. Exciting to have some real agreeable PR data since the pandemic!

The story of Japan's success is definitely notable and worth talking about, but I do think it's a symptom of a bigger phenomenon: Smash is getting way way more global lately. Every other region is growing in numbers and even talent, too, at their own speeds. I admittedly don't have the numbers to back that up but it's felt like the vibe ever since SSBU released.
 

superjm

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Super Smash Con has been an absolute bloodbath so far, but we've reached a new level with our last two supermajor grand finalists being sent to Losers at the start of Top 128

Sparg0 :ultcloud: 2 - 3 :ultcorrinf: Ly
Sonix :ultsonic: 1 - 3 :ultsamus: IcyMist

This in addition to players like Jakal, Fatality, Sisqui, and Lima among others already being knocked out.
 
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Frihetsanka

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Ly 3-2 Sparg0 with Corrin. I've been thinking for a while that Corrin is an underrated character and Ly, SHADIC, and Neo are all doing well at this tournament. Shame it wasn't streamed (there's some mobile footage available though).

Edit: SHADIC 3-0 ESAM, Ly 3-2 Scend, Neo 3-1 ChunkyKong, all made top 30 winners side! Really strong showing from Corrin, really underrated character.
 
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Frihetsanka

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sparg0 out at 49th, losing to Aaron 2-3.

Happy to analyze his set with Ly if people want.
It'd be cool if you're willing! It wasn't on stream so you'd have to watch from a mobile phone though, unfortunately. This seems like Corrin's tournament. Even if they all go 0-2 tomorrow we'd have three Corrins making 17th (Ly with seed 64, SHADIC 42, Neo 19). If they win some sets it'll be even better!
 

NairWizard

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It'd be cool if you're willing! It wasn't on stream so you'd have to watch from a mobile phone though, unfortunately. This seems like Corrin's tournament. Even if they all go 0-2 tomorrow we'd have three Corrins making 17th (Ly with seed 64, SHADIC 42, Neo 19). If they win some sets it'll be even better!
3 Corrins in winners top 32 and literally all of them have matchups that I would counterpick Corrin for (edit: I forgot about KEN's Sephiroth, so scratch that lol)

Very likely one of them makes top 8.
 
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The_Bookworm

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DDee:ultpacman: 3-2 Sonix:ultsonic:, eliminating him at 25th.
DDee apparently had a Pac-Man in the back pocket in preparation for such a matchup and it looked very clean.

Also Marss:ultzss: 3-0 Light:ultfox:, proceeding him to Winner's Quarterfinals.
Feels like Marss always has a tournament he selectively feels to go sicko mode, and this tournament appears to be one of those tournaments.

With Onin:ultsteve: already eliminated at 33rd, we will have a new Smash Con champion crowned here today, but who will it be?
acola:ultsteve: seems the most likely, especially considering that both of his killers, Sparg0 and MuteAce, is already eliminated (Sparg0) or must go on the deepest of deepest Loser's runs (MuteAce) to reach to where acola will very likely be.
 

NairWizard

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Corrin is so good. I've long believed that Lucina and Corrin are just as good as Cloud, and that Lucina is likely better. If someone like Leo permanently mained Corrin, Corrin would be a top 4 mainstay.
 

Frihetsanka

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Corrin is so good. I've long believed that Lucina and Corrin are just as good as Cloud, and that Lucina is likely better. If someone like Leo permanently mained Corrin, Corrin would be a top 4 mainstay.
I think Corrin is like, top 30, Cloud is better though. Leo's Corrin would be so sick, I hope he watched this and got inspired by SHADIC/Neo/Ly. SHADIC out at 9th, incredible run, lost 2-3 vs Riddles (where he SD'd 3 times in 3 games), and 1-3 vs Zomba (super close games though).

Corrin performance:

Ly, seed 64, placement 17. Notable wins: NaetorU 2-1, Sparg0 3-2, Scend 3-2. Lost to KEN 0-3 (kind of close though) and Raflow 2-3.

SHADIC, seed 42, placement 9. Notable wins: TM7_ZAP 2-1, Candle 3-1, ESAM 3-0, Chase 3-0, Big D 3-1 (in losers. Lost to Riddles 2-3 (SD'd in every game he lost) and Zomba 1-3 (very close games).

Neo, seed 19, placement minimum 5. Notable wins: Steffen 2-0, Tachyon 3-0, ChunkyKong 3-1, Noi 3-1, Tweek 3-1. No losses yet.

Really good tournament for Corrin! Ly could've beaten Raflow but didn't SHADIC could've beaten both Riddles and Zomba. Neo might still take some wins (he could even win the tournament, although it's going to be incredibly difficult).
 

The_Bookworm

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We have our top 8.

Winner's
KEN:ultsonic: vs Dabuz:ultrosalina::ultalph:
acola:ultsteve: vs Neo:ultcorrinf:

Loser's
Zomba:ultrob: vs Marss:ultzss:
DDee:ultsteve::ultpokemontrainerf::ultpacman: vs Miya:ultgnw:


If someone is doing a bingo card on who will be in top 8, I highly doubt they got much of any points cause this is a wacky top 8.
 

superjm

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This SSC: An absolute bloodbath of crazy comebacks, upsets, and the highest top players drowning to novel matchups and clutch play, leading to a rather unorthodox top 8 of whoever just barely managed to survive the the utter chaos.

Also this SSC: #1 ranked acola steamrolls his way to top 8 dropping only a single game.
 
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Rizen

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Colorado
This cements Acola, and not Spargo, as number 1 this season. Acola has consistency Spargo lacks. Also worth talking about, Zomba is climbing his way to being the best player in the USA. He got upset twice that one tournament (which was that?) but otherwise he's been outperforming Tweek and Light.
 

NairWizard

Somewhere
Joined
Oct 28, 2014
Messages
1,927
I think Corrin is like, top 30, Cloud is better though.
I think people are just absolutely terrible at fighting Cloud, and sparg0 is crazy good, which inflates perception of Cloud.

Corrin is good against fellow swordies and heavies broadly, along with plenty of characters who are traditionally hard to ledgetrap/edgeguard.
More specifically, Corrin has better MUs against Diddy Kong, Sheik, Joker, Pikachu, Pichu, MK, and Sonic, as well as Bowser, DK and Ridley, all of whom Cloud likely loses to.

Cloud is better against most zoners like Toon Link, Villager, Rosalina, and Samus. Notably, Cloud is way better against Steve.
Cloud also does better against ZSS, Game and Watch, and Fox, whose OOS games and speed Cloud can easily contend with.

If I think about them really objectively, I guess I'd give Cloud a slight edge because it's nice to have a secondary or main who just obliterates zoners for you, particularly Steve and Samus, but man is it rough playing Cloud against his losing matchups. It depends on what you value, but I don't think it's a big difference.
 

The_Bookworm

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 10, 2018
Messages
3,202
Neo being able to bring acola into game 5 last hit is very impressive, albeit sort of expected considering how close their previous set was. He super swung for the fences for the forward smash, reading a roll away, but it didn't work out and he got punished accordingly. Still a very close and exciting set.

Neo did unfortunately proceed to get his cheeks clapped very hard by Zomba afterwards. Still, his run ends at 5th place, capping off an otherwise amazing event for Corrin as a character.
 

Frihetsanka

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 26, 2016
Messages
2,239
Location
Sweden
Looks like he might've lost momentum after that close acola set, I've been in similar situations myself (although not at the same level of play as them, of course) and yeah, it happens... Incredibly tournament run from Neo, and that Neo vs acola set is probably worth studying in order to learn Steve counter-play. I wonder how Neo would do versus other Steves like Onin and DDee?
 

NairWizard

Somewhere
Joined
Oct 28, 2014
Messages
1,927
I had a hard time watching this top 8, just like BOBC and parts of GOML and Smash Factor. Several top 8s this year have been so incredibly anti-hype -- the characters at the top of the meta are really draining for me as a spectator. I do appreciate camping and sometimes enjoy analyzing the elements of campy gameplay, but man! A bit more variety would be nice. Watching Sonic, Steve, and Game and Watch almost every top 8 is just... something.

Of course, we did also have several great GFs like Kazuya-Incineroar, and the Neo set with acola was great as well, so I guess I can't be too upset.

Plus, I do love to see Dabuz do well, since he's one of my favorite personalities in the community.

Roses in a bed of weeds, I suppose.

Everything until top 8 was great! Another great smash con event.
 
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