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Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

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  • Total voters
    587

StrangeKitten

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The "Kencineroar" is legit scary (should have gone sonic vs mm tho imho).

Odd take perhaps but I find Ken's Sonic more exciting than not ...
Ken's Sonic is probably my favorite! He's less campy and splashes in more combos and aggression, which is how I play Sonic. It's also good to see that his Incineroar has improved and he's using Revenge effectively. I've had issues with the lack of Revenges and Alolan Whips in the past. There still weren't many AWs, but to be fair, he was against Min Min in the second game. She's one of, if not the riskiest character to use AW against. She's also one of Incin's worst matchups, possibly his second worst (I think Samus/Dark Samus is his worst). So, I agree, I don't know why he went Incin there. He should have used Sonic.
 

Hippieslayer

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The more I see how top players play their characters compared to others, is there really any real point in trying to find your own answers when a top payer has proven everything that works and what does not work? You can still try to understand why something does or does not work for your character through playing and analyzing mistakes, but...

Also, random thoughts, but what did you think of MuteAce's WIN tier list from a while back, and do you think it's more interesting compared to conventional ones?
There is a point because you develop a deeper understanding of the game when exploring it on your own. You can't just copy top players, not even top players can copy top players a lot of the time, if they could there would probably be more top level Cloud players. Everyone can see what Sparg0 does but no one can do it. Same with Light and Fox. If all you did was try to copy top players without ever having experimented or tried figuring things out on your own it wouldn't work. Moreover everyone has different strengths and weaknesses as a player, and as such everyone has a different optimal playstyle to a certain degree. You just strike a balance and do both.

About Mute's list I think his points are valid albeit a bit overstated (for understandable reasons). Nothing is simple or easy at top level. Not even Game & Watch. Moreover being able to sync with a character legit matters. Just picking the best bang for buck character doesn't necessarily yield better results. There are lots of examples demonstrating this. I think. I can't come up with a good one right now, sorry. But for instance Capitancito dropped Wolf for Mii Gunner and started doing better. Some people could go Steve/Aegis/GnW and start winning more, but not everyone. Leo can't seem to click with Aegis for example.

Edit: I think Mii Gunner is also pretty damn horrible for Incineroar. Revenge doesn't work because Gunner can punish it super easily with a follow-up attack or projectile and Incineroar typically ends up losing revenge before he can get in and use it anyway. So Gunner can blast away with their 5 different projectiles against the slowest character in the game. Getting off ledge and landing on stage is really hard for Incineroar. They end up locked in disadvantage for ages.

This used to be just my own personal experience playing the MU at a lower level than the pros. But Capitancito vs Skyjay looked really similar to my own games. Solid 3-0. Skyjay did not play the MU well, obviously having no idea what to do in a lot of situations, but Capitancito also took a lot of unnecessary risks and still smoked Skyjay easily.

Though I gotta go see if there's any sets of Sharpy fighting Incineroar on YouTube. They should've fought many times so if there's anything Incineroar can do Sharpy probably does it.

Edit2: Yeah Sharpy plays the MU a lot better, much closer games, but it still looks horrible for Incineroar imo. Capitancito doesn't camp as hard as he could, literally throwing away stocks by going in when he has no reason to and then still winning.
 
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The_Bookworm

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Some spicy stuff happening at Crown III right now.
Earlier today, Sparg0:ultcloud: lost 3-2 to Jakal:ultwolf:, and Jakal is now currently in top 8 winner's.
And just now, Zomba:ultrob: reverse 3-0 MkLeo:ultbyleth: to advance to winner's top 8 as well.

Because of how the bracket is set-up, MkLeo and Sparg0 are now set to fight eachother for 9th place, which is pretty crazy.

Also, Sonix:ultsonic:, consistent top 8 placer, got an all-time low (aside from Smash Con 2022) this tournament, losing to Zomba:ultrob: 3-1, then to Gackt:ultness: 3-0 for a 13th place finish.
 

NairWizard

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Joker-Cloud is hard. I recall Nairo saying something like how that matchup makes Cloud feel like an incomplete character.

Cloud's major weakness isn't (just) recovery. It's little holes in his neutral. People don't often realize it and so they think Cloud is stronger than he is, but if you put Cloud up against Sheik or Joker or someone with slippery neutral, the holes show pretty transparently.
 

toonito

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Zomba wins Crown the Third over Jakal

IIRC this is ROB's 2nd major win since Zackray won Big House in 2019
 

The_Bookworm

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Crown the Third (418 Entrants)

1st: Zomba:ultrob:
2nd: Jakal:ultwolf:
3rd: Shuton:ultmythra::ultolimar:
4th: Onin:ultsteve:
5th: Tweek:ultdiddy:
5th: MkLeo:ultbyleth::ultjoker:
7th: Chase:ultpalutena::ultmythra:
7th: Kurama:ultmario:

9th: Sparg0:ultcloud::ultmythra:
9th: Light:ultfox:
9th: ApolloKage:ultsnake::ultsteve:
9th: Gackt:ultness:

13th: Sonix:ultsonic:
13th: Tea:ultpacman::ultkazuya:
13th: Maister:ultgnw:
13th: KEN:ultsonic:

17th: CaptainCRUP!!!:ultfalcon:
17th: Quandale Dinglelingleton:ultenderman:
17th: Chronos:ultsnake:
17th: Kiyarash:ultluigi:
17th: Dark Wizzy:ultmario:
17th: Chag:ultpalutena:
17th: Abe:ultgnw:
17th: Lui$:ultpalutena:

25th: GuyGuy:ultluigi:
25th: PkChris:ultness:
25th: rydra:ultridley:
25th: Ned:ultsephiroth:
25th: VaLoR:ultsonic:
25th: BassMage:ultjigglypuff:
25th: Cosmos:ultjoker:
25th: RiskTKR:ultrob:

33rd: TimPrater:ultmewtwo:
33rd: loaf:ultwario:
33rd: Ludo:ultmario:
33rd: Sticccy:ultfox::ultsnake:
33rd: Kreeg:ultmarth:
33rd: Stroder Ame:ultsora::ultgreninja::ultmario::ultroy::ultdoc: (average_Stroder_tournament_roster.jpg)
33rd: Monte:ultgnw:
33rd: MFA:ultolimar:
33rd: Smirk:ultken:
33rd: Shoe:ultzss:
33rd: Scend:ultness:
33rd: JoJoDaHoBo:ulttoonlink:
33rd: Grease All Mighty:ultsnake:
33rd: Felix:ultfox:
33rd: Hawk:ultrob:
33rd: FrostKqt:ultchrom::ultroy:


In the previous major event Zomba participated in, Battle of BC 5, he defeated both MkLeo and Tweek for 7th.
Today at Crown the Third, he beat them both again, plus reverse 3-0 the man who eliminated him at BoBC5 (Shuton) to outright win the whole event. Between these two events and his performance of Kagaribi, Zomba leveled up big time in the past two months.

One notable new trick he brought to the table that he made especially good use of against Shuton, was the use of footstool -> down air as an OoS for ROB. He never used that before, and it came helpful repeatedly throughout his tournament run.

Other notable stories included Jakal getting the tournament run of his lifetime, plus Onin finally getting a very good tournament run back on the board after so long.
 

NairWizard

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Chase is extremely good, one of the players with the highest overall skill level in the game. He plays matchups like almost no one else. I think he is held back a little bit by his choice of Palutena, because he's skilled at using the whole roster.

Chase with a more rounded lineup would be a top 10 threat, I'm pretty sure.
 

Hippieslayer

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Chase is extremely good, one of the players with the highest overall skill level in the game. He plays matchups like almost no one else. I think he is held back a little bit by his choice of Palutena, because he's skilled at using the whole roster.

Chase with a more rounded lineup would be a top 10 threat, I'm pretty sure.

What do you think about Palutena and her place in the meta?
 

NairWizard

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What do you think about Palutena and her place in the meta?
Mixed.

Really good vs. Kazuya, Steve, Wario, and Cloud.

Has tough matchups vs. Diddy, Fox, Lucina/Byleth, Min Min, Roy, Joker, and Aegis.

Palutena-Aegis just feels so bad, likely one of the hardest matchups in the upper tiers. You're just frozen in shield against Mythra. I see Aegis players lose this sometimes, but it's always so lopsided in neutral.

Generally, Palutena's advantage state is competitive, but her neutral is lacking with not a lot of options for advancement. b-air is invincible but it only covers a tiny portion of her body, so she is incredibly susceptible to whiff punishing even with her best tool. People realized a long time ago that the best answer to n-air is just... walking away.

OOS and recovery are middling. Easy to 2-frame, easy to juggle, easy to pressure.
 
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Sucumbio

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So, who mains Joker out of the world top 50 rn?

If mkleo devoted himself to Joker and dropped Byleth, would he be able to once again perplex his opponents until he gets figured out again? Or is Joker more predictable than Byleth?

(Not knocking him, he dominated for years before he fell off ... and the sets between him and sparg0, reminds me of the old m2k vs ally days, lol.)
 

Swamp Sensei

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So, who mains Joker out of the world top 50 rn?

If mkleo devoted himself to Joker and dropped Byleth, would he be able to once again perplex his opponents until he gets figured out again? Or is Joker more predictable than Byleth?

(Not knocking him, he dominated for years before he fell off ... and the sets between him and sparg0, reminds me of the old m2k vs ally days, lol.)
I don't think MKLeo should drop Byleth. Sure Byleth isn't top tier, but he's a perfect fit for Leo. Leo has made his passion for their gameplay known time and time again. Character passion can make you play better. Besides, Byleth is such an uncommon matchup that it works well as a matchup check for people in bracket.

If anything, I think he should drop Pyra/Mythra. Leo hasn't had the best success with them, and the pick feels forced. It feels like a pure meta pick, when Leo plays best when he's having fun.
 

StrangeKitten

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Mixed.

Really good vs. Kazuya, Steve, Wario, and Cloud.

Has tough matchups vs. Diddy, Fox, Lucina/Byleth, Min Min, Roy, Joker, and Aegis.
Worth noting, these characters weren't seen much/didn't exist in the game yet pre-quarantine. Furthermore, Diddy and Byleth received some buffs and Palu received some nerfs. I still think Palu is a strong character, but does notably worse in today's meta because of the things I mentioned.
 

NairWizard

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If mkleo devoted himself to Joker and dropped Byleth, would he be able to once again perplex his opponents until he gets figured out again? Or is Joker more predictable than Byleth?

(Not knocking him, he dominated for years before he fell off ... and the sets between him and sparg0, reminds me of the old m2k vs ally days, lol.)
Byleth is relatively speaking pretty "bad" and I think much of Leo's current problems come from trying to invest time into Byleth. I don't think Leo's Aegis is bad. I think the enormous amount of time that Leo invests into Byleth is the handicap holding his Aegis back from reaching sparg0 or Shuton levels. Leo is too reliant on Byleth-style spacing, but Byleth is actually very exploitable at top level. Byleth is slow, Byleth is bad at getting off of ledge, Byleth can't land, Byleth has trouble juggling without insane air drift reads... It's rough to play Byleth. Leo makes it work against a field of -1 matchups because he's Leo.

I don't get into details a lot lately, but this time I'll dive in a little bit.

Once top players figured out the matchup and started avoiding the early KO traps, the big innovation that enabled Leo's Byleth to stay competitive was his use of f-air for undershooting in neutral. He was able to shut out Cosmos' Aegis at LSI and beat Sparg0 at Genesis 8 last year with this. I have no doubt that he picked it up from his reverse up-air spacing with Corrin when he started to play Corrin.

The undershot Byleth f-airs are really difficult to navigate for most characters because Byleth can follow up with d-tilt or jump n-air. It's pretty similar to Sparg0 standing in place and Cross-Slashing in anticipation of an approach. The Cross Slash covers so much space--how are you really going to punish it if he whiffs? Byleth undershooting f-airs is based on the same concept, but Byleth is a lot easier to whiff punish in this way because f-air is strictly horizontal and you can approach from above with various moves (like Cloud f-air).

Then the other issue is that Byleth doesn't have the mobility to threaten you if you just don't approach once he whiffs the f-air. So characters like Diddy with banana, or Wolf with laser, or Olimar with Pikmin, or ZSS with z-air can easily just... dash out of range of undershot f-air and attack Byleth at range. Byleth has to commit to a super risky dash attack to actually get these characters out of their zone after the f-air, or hope that they roll behind him.

People think n-air and up-b are Byleth's most important moves, and they're not entirely wrong in a mechanical sense, but f-air is the bedrock foundation of Byleth's neutral, and, unfortunately, Byleth f-air is starting to be really difficult to use against the field. Fast characters and zoning characters give Byleth a ton of trouble because they just weave around or ignore the f-air even when it's undershot.

So, what does Leo have to do to keep Byleth competitive?

He has to find a way to get more from CQC. Last year, spotdodge -> jab worked as an answer to Cloud aerials, but that won't work against the other characters that Leo struggles with. He's probably thinking about using more f-tilt in neutral, but f-tilt does not lead to enough reward in most situations to put the risk-reward situations in his favor.

It's rough.

Joker has more meta development waiting with Gun and would be the sounder choice. Even Aegis would be the sounder choice if a future investment is the goal.

But I also believe in Leo and think he'll make Byleth work as well. If I had to guess, his next big innovation is going to be more dash grab near corner at percents where IRAR b-air will kill. I'd also try more drift-away back-hit n-airs, since this puts Leo in a position to threaten b-air instead of the n-air sometimes (since he'd be facing away from the opponent), which is a lot deadlier than f-air at mid-high percents. Even if b-air doesn't kill, it does send opponents further away, leaving Byleth more time to set up an edgeguard.
 

Hippieslayer

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Capitancito wins knockdown 77. Double eliminating Sonix in a convincing manner. Also sending Wrath into losers. Uses the falco laser neutral-b vs Sonic. Seems to work pretty well. I can see it making sense vs Sonic in particular.
 
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Frihetsanka

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Keep in mind that it's not ordered, so Joker could plausibly be #9, as could Kazuya. This, however, makes it not that interesting of a tier list, since the 3rd tier is so huge. Does he think Mario is top 10? Or like, #25? We don't know.

Sephiroth and Yoshi being that high is a bit surprising. I suspect it's because of KEN and Yoshidora.
 

Idon

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Keep in mind that it's not ordered, so Joker could plausibly be #9, as could Kazuya. This, however, makes it not that interesting of a tier list, since the 3rd tier is so huge. Does he think Mario is top 10? Or like, #25? We don't know.

Sephiroth and Yoshi being that high is a bit surprising. I suspect it's because of KEN and Yoshidora.
Ah that makes a lot more sense, because I was about to question the judgment of someone who thinks Marth plays on par with ROB.
 

NairWizard

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I'm a lot less inclined to trust Zackray's opinion after the massive drop on Sheik.

It's normal to change your opinion on characters over time, but dropping someone from undisputed top tier to possibly mid tier probably means you didn't think through your original opinion well enough.
 

Cheryl~

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Zackray did a tier list

There's a bottom tier with :ultdk:, :ultkrool:, :ultlittlemac: and :ultganondorf:. The individual tiers aren't ordered (other then maybe the top 2?).
The dropoff of Sheik from his last tier list (the reason he picked her up was his belief that she was going to be a undisputed top 5 character) is extremely funny. Despite this, Zackray still puts a lot of faith into the more technical top tiers like Peach and Shulk, placing them in a tier above other commonly accepted top tiers like Joker, ROB, and Sonic. I wonder if he feels their potential is much more valuable than that of Sheik's nowadays.
 

Frihetsanka

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The two best Corrin players made a joint-MU chart and it looks fairly accurate to me! Corrin is probably one of the more underrated characters right now, but between Neo and SHADIC she has some solid top level representation, and Ly also doing some stuff, beating kept at a weekly a couple of weeks ago, etc.

I think Corrin is still hurt by her weak early start in Ultimate. She was a mid tier (even a low tier at the beginning of the game) until patch 8.0.0, which buffed her into high tier. At that point most players had already picked their main and few were interested in picking up Corrin.

I think Corrin could be a really good secondary character. Easy to pick up, easy to keep fresh, and does well versus a good amount of relevant MUs. Solo Corrin has some issues, both SHADIC and Neo lost to Chronos (Snake is a really bad MU, apparently). Chag talked about potentially picking up Corrin as a secondary (check the replies to Neo's tweet).
 

Idon

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Speaking of Corrin being relevant against certain MUs... how about that mkleo vs sonix set
 

NairWizard

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There's been a couple, which one was it?
They played at Wavedash 2023 this weekend and Leo won 2 sets over Sonix with Corrin (and lost 1 set).


It never really occurred to me, but Joker-Corrin is probably Leo's best primary-secondary option. You'd have Corrin for Sonic, Pikachu, Pichu, Diddy, Ness, and ROB, and then Joker for all the rest.

Really, the only matchup that pair doesn't cover is Wolf, maybe?
 
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Sucumbio

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They played at Wavedash 2023 this weekend and Leo won 2 sets over Sonix with Corrin (and lost 1 set).


It never really occurred to me, but Joker-Corrin is probably Leo's best primary-secondary option. You'd have Corrin for Sonic, Pikachu, Pichu, Diddy, Ness, and ROB, and then Joker for all the rest.

Really, the only matchup that pair doesn't cover is Wolf, maybe?
Who can he beat wolf with? Not aegis lol maybe DK?
 

NairWizard

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Who can he beat wolf with? Not aegis lol maybe DK?
He can beat Wolf with just about anybody. He's been winning -1 or -2 matchups for years. So I'd just personally accept the -1 across Joker/Corrin and take it.

But knowing Leo, he will likely go with Byleth/Joker/Corrin for now. There's some redundancy here though, and I think he will feel the negative effects of putting effort into Byleth and then needing to rely a lot on Corrin for matchups.

I think the biggest issue is that you need 2 additional characters to cover Byleth's unique set of bad matchups. I haven't been able to think of a perfect secondary that covers everything for Byleth, and the ones that come close are definitely not Leo characters.
 

Frihetsanka

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Really, the only matchup that pair doesn't cover is Wolf, maybe?
Neo/SHADIC put it at +0.5 Corrin in their recent join MU chart. The MU might not be that bad. Unlike Aegis it's actually somewhat difficult to edgeguard Corrin at times. SHADIC's comment: "Neutral is good for Corrin since both chars have similar gameplans but Corrin has a sword. Advantage state is simple just gotta track their drift, 2-frame recovery, counter side-b. Shouldn't let wolf get in."

I think Joker + Corrin would be a good fit for MkLeo, he seems to like Byleth so maybe he'll play all three.
https://twitter.com/SHADIC_/status/1670446815689289729
 

NairWizard

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Hmmm, in my experience, Wolf doesn't need to get in because laser disrupts Corrin's main spacing tools (falling n-air/f-air/reverse up-air). Grounded Wolf is hard to deal with, so you have to condition him to jump so that you can land rising aerials on him. To do that, you have to overshoot on predicted dashback lasers and get some tomahawks in against shield. When I overshoot, I tend to get eaten alive by dash attacks and up-smash. It feels really hard.
 

Aligo

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Hmmm, in my experience, Wolf doesn't need to get in because laser disrupts Corrin's main spacing tools (falling n-air/f-air/reverse up-air). Grounded Wolf is hard to deal with, so you have to condition him to jump so that you can land rising aerials on him. To do that, you have to overshoot on predicted dashback lasers and get some tomahawks in against shield. When I overshoot, I tend to get eaten alive by dash attacks and up-smash. It feels really hard.
Yeah I don't really see how corrin is able to properly space out wolf, especially with the lack of air and ground speed. Good normals definitely helps though.
 

NairWizard

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One of the hardest obstacles in this game when playing neutral is "what if they just don't jump?"

So many characters' typical gameplans rely on the other guy jumping. So many characters rely on jumping themselves!

You guys are struggling vs. Cloud? Don't jump! The moment you jump, you're going to get blown up by huge aerials.
Having some issues vs. Game and Watch? Don't jump into rising n-air!

Jump is an incredible utility option in a wide variety of situations, but really, your jumps are losing you games. As much as your options are restricted by not jumping, your opponent's are often even more restricted by not being able to get you to jump.
 

Hydreigonfan01

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Character data update coming from UltStats. :ultgnw: is supposed to be #10.
 
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