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Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

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  • Total voters
    587

Hydreigonfan01

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 24, 2018
Messages
4,576
Results for Maesuma TOP #13. Pretty sure this is the best solo run for :ultminmin ever.

1. Miya :ultgnw:
2. Doramigi :ultminmin
3. Kameme :ultsora: :ultmegaman: :ultsheik:
4. Yoshidora :ultyoshi:
5. takera :ultken:
5. Asimo :ultryu:
7. Gackt :ultness:
7. ProtoBanham :ultminmin :ultlucina:
9. Hero :ultbowser: :ultdk:
9. Paseriman :ultfox:
9. 33Peranbox :ultsteve:
9. Snow :ultmario:
13. Tea :ultpacman: :ultkazuya:
13. showers :ultjoker: :ultmythra:
13. Jogibu :ultfalcon:
17. raki :ultsteve: :ultkazuya:
17. Shirayuki :ultinkling:
17. Lv. 1 :ulttoonlink:
17. Ryuoh :ultdiddy:
17. Karaage :ultfalcon:
17. Rarukun :ultluigi:
17. Rizeasu :ultmarth::ultbyleth: :ultrobinf: :ultbrawler:
17. M0tsunabE :ultfalco:
25. sssr :ultrob: :ultpacman:
25. Ron :ultyoshi: :ultkirby: :ultmario:
25. KEN :ultsonic:
25. Shori :ultwolf:
25. Atelier :ultwolf: :ultpokemontrainer:
25. Toriguri :ultbanjokazooie:
25. Nao :ultmario:
25. Tsubaki :ultjoker:

Results for CEO

1. Dabuz :ultrosalina: :ultminmin :ultalph:
2. Riddles :ultkazuya: :ult_terry:
3. Yaura :ultsamus:
4. MVD :ultsnake:
5. Riku :ultsteve:
5. ApolloKage :ultsnake: :ultmario:
7. BeastModePaul :ulthero: :ultsephiroth:
7. ESAM :ultpikachu:
9. Grape :ultsnake: :ultroy:
9. Jake :ultalex:
9. ChunkyKong :ultdk:
9. YoseFu :ultsimon:
13. TM7_ZAP :ultbowserjr: :ultluigi:
13. Regalo :ultlucas:
13. MuteAce :ultpeach:
13. Goblin :ultroy: :ultmythra:
17. Kobe :ultyounglink:
17. omega :ultjoker:
17. Sean :ultfalcon:
17. Senn :ultsheik:
17. Grymlynn :ultness:
17. Jahzz0 :ultken:
17. Aaron :ultdiddy:
17. Toast :ultyounglink:

Results for King of Fields 95 #3

1. Glutonny :ultwario:
2. Luugi :ultluigi:
3. quiK :ultsamus:
4. Sisqui :ultsamus: :ultdarksamus:
5. Kurama :ultmario:
5. Space :ultmythra: :ultinkling:
7. MoDzai :ultpacman: :ultkazuya:
7. Tarik :ultgreninja: :ultkazuya:
9. Eko :ultdiddy: :ultpalutena:
9. Gogesta :ultsteve: :ultbowser:
9. Leon :ultlucina:
9. Ikan :ultryu:
13. KID :ultbrawler: :ultfox:
13. Raflow :ultpalutena: :ultdarksamus:
13. Mezcaul :ultridley:
13. Naskino :ultzelda:
17. Nitox :ultlucas:
17. Longo :ultrob:
17. Raarchyor :ultgreninja: :ultsora:
17. Crepe Salee :ultsteve: :ultwario:
17. Chag :ultpalutena:
17. VinS :ultlink:
17. Azarel :ultcloud:
17. PeW :ultness: :ultminmin
 
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The_Bookworm

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 10, 2018
Messages
3,228
Day late, but here are the results for CEO 2023.

CEO 2023 (513 Entrants)

1st: Dabuz:ultalph::ultrosalina::ultminmin
2nd: Riddles:ultkazuya::ult_terry:
3rd: Yaura:ultsamus:
4th: MVD:ultsnake:
5th: ApolloKage:ultsnake::ultmario:
5th: Riku:ultsteve:
7th: BeastModePaul:ulthero::ultsephiroth:
7th: ESAM:ultpikachu:

9th: Grape:ultsnake::ultroy:
9th: Jake:ultsteve:
9th: ChunkyKong:ultdk:
9th: YoseFu:ultsimon:

13th: MuteAce:ultpeach:
13th: TM7_ZAP:ultbowserjr::ultluigi:
13th: Regalo:ultlucas:
13th: Goblin:ultroy:

17th: Jahzz0:ultken:
17th: Kobe:ultyounglink:
17th: Senn:ultsheik:
17th: omega:ultjoker:
17th: Sean:ultfalcon:
17th: Aaron:ultdiddy:
17th: Grymlynn:ultness:
17th: Toast:ultyounglink:

25th: Tachyon:ultpikachu:
25th: Dominator:ultmario:
25th: Jade:ultfox:
25th: BallsGrab:ultwario:
25th: TheMightyDialga:ultbayonetta:
25th: Karu!:ultrichter:
25th: Surehyper:ultfox:
25th: MPg:ultmegaman:

33rd: Hungrybox:ultjigglypuff:
33rd: Raptor:ultyoshi:
33rd: Sonido:ultsonic:
33rd: Gswizy:ultsamus:
33rd: AwDaSea:ultdiddy:
33rd: Pillow:ultlucina:
33rd: Mercury:ultjoker::ultmythra:
33rd: Ave~:ultmario:
33rd: SoulArts:ultshulk:
33rd: SlushieV2:ultdk:
33rd: Psysilex:ultness:
33rd: Luma:ultrob:
33rd: Donquavious:ultgreninja:
33rd: Fatality:ultfalcon:
33rd: Phuzix:ultsheik:
33rd: Goober:ultfalcon:


Few things:
  • At long last, Dabuz's 2nd placement curse at a national tournament has finally been repelled, taking out a bracket demon in his own teammate Riddles in the process in a bracket reset.
  • After being upset by TM7_ZAP's Luigi, Riddles would go on a long loser's bracket run to ultimately place 2nd, defeating MPg, Aaron, Goblin, YoseFu, ESAM, ApolloKage, MVD, and Yaura. Between this and his 25th placement at Street Fighter 6, this was a very good weekend for Riddles.
  • DK and Belmonts had a good weekend with ChunkyKong and YoseFu placing 9th at the event. Amusingly enough, both of them would achieve an upset over MuteAce. BeastModePaul's 7th with Hero (with a side of Sephiroth) is also the best placement for the character in a very long time.
  • After stagnating for quite a long while, ESAM fires back with a 7th placement, ultimately falling to Riddles' Terry in a game 5 last hit scenario. Between this and Tachyon's 25th, this is a good weekend for Pikachu.
  • As someone who has been posting results in this thread for a while, I have always noticed Riku been steadily getting in the results thread in the shadows not noticed by many players. Rather he is a hidden boss lurking in the shadows. Today, he came to play with a 5th placement, by far his best tournament. Jake also roars back after several months of retirement for a 9th placement.
Far from the biggest event we have experienced this year, but still a notable one regardless.
 

Frihetsanka

Smash Champion
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Apr 26, 2016
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Riku versus Yaura was such a close set, with a few changes Riku could've taken it, with a guaranteed top 3 showing. Good stuff from Riku.

TM7_ZAP lost two games with Bowser Jr, and then proceeded to win two games with Luigi versus ESAM. I wonder if he would've won the set if he had gone Luigi from the start?

Speaking of Luigi, Luugi got 2nd at a French major (King Of Fields 95 3), a more stacked tournament than CEO 2023 (huh, times sure have changed). Kurama got 5th, so it wasn't just European players. Ikan the American Ryu main also attended and got 9th.

Oh, and Japan, Doramigi getting 2nd at a super major, and Miya winning. Miya should be guaranteed top 5 in the world now, right? And Doramigi likely top 50? I've been thinking that Min Min is really good for a while now, the character might be top 10. It's a strange character though so not many people want to play her.
 

Aligo

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 12, 2021
Messages
535
Riku versus Yaura was such a close set, with a few changes Riku could've taken it, with a guaranteed top 3 showing. Good stuff from Riku.

TM7_ZAP lost two games with Bowser Jr, and then proceeded to win two games with Luigi versus ESAM. I wonder if he would've won the set if he had gone Luigi from the start?

Speaking of Luigi, Luugi got 2nd at a French major (King Of Fields 95 3), a more stacked tournament than CEO 2023 (huh, times sure have changed). Kurama got 5th, so it wasn't just European players. Ikan the American Ryu main also attended and got 9th.

Oh, and Japan, Doramigi getting 2nd at a super major, and Miya winning. Miya should be guaranteed top 5 in the world now, right? And Doramigi likely top 50? I've been thinking that Min Min is really good for a while now, the character might be top 10. It's a strange character though so not many people want to play her.
Min min, has a very strong gameplay, though I believe the substantial nerfs in the last patch put a lot of people off, as she has fewer good close up options compared to other characters that play at a distance such as Samus.
 
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Hippieslayer

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 12, 2008
Messages
959
Location
Azeroth
Great results. Love seeing Leo's sick Corrrin wreck Sonic. Love seeing Esam top 8 (and he couldve gone even further) with his unique Pikachu punish game. Love seeing Dabuz getting a win too, he too seems to have been leveled up slightly after japan, just like with Esam he's unique with Rosa, no one else does it like him. And then we have Glutto winning who is another unique phenomenon. Man I wish Glutto would go to Japan too. Gz to Miya too, loved seeing Kameme keep on demonstrating Sora does have the sauce.

Did he fight Protos Lucina? I would think Lucina would do quite well vs Sora but I dunno. Haven't watched all the sets yet, but I saw Protos Min Min drop a game to the Sora. Interesting that he'd go Min min, I was thinking Sora would have the same issues as Ness vs swordies. He's not that fast and while his moved are disjointed they don't have the range of true swordies. And being a floaty aerial based character should make him very vulnerable to swordies? I gotta check that set out when I get off work.
 
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NairWizard

Somewhere
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Oct 28, 2014
Messages
1,947
Did he fight Protos Lucina? I would think Lucina would do quite well vs Sora but I dunno. Haven't watched all the sets yet, but I saw Protos Min Min drop a game to the Sora. Interesting that he'd go Min min, I was thinking Sora would have the same issues as Ness vs swordies. He's not that fast and while his moved are disjointed they don't have the range of true swordies. And being a floaty aerial based character should make him very vulnerable to swordies? I gotta check that set out when I get off work.

Interestingly enough, Lucina's hardest matchup in the game is probably Dark Pit/Pit, and Sora has a lot of what makes that matchup hard. Lucina is too floaty for those horizontal carry advantage states.

Pit was the reason I stopped solo maining Lucina. I can't imagine Sora is much easier.
 

NairWizard

Somewhere
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Oct 28, 2014
Messages
1,947
Double posting a bit since the thread is so low-activity, but I'd like to analyze a match for you guys. Anyone have a preference on a particular match or set they really like that they'd love to understand more in depth?
 

Hippieslayer

Smash Ace
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Messages
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Location
Azeroth
Double posting a bit since the thread is so low-activity, but I'd like to analyze a match for you guys. Anyone have a preference on a particular match or set they really like that they'd love to understand more in depth?
I think you should pick one. I would just like for one that says something poignat about the meta or something like that. But I can't think of any one that stands out to me.

I would have said Leo or Tweek vs Zomba would've been interesting. But everybody's favourite ex smasher already did that a week or so ago, and he was quite on point, especially with regards to Tweek as far as I could tell. Don't like the guy, but when he's only talking about smash he can have some interesting things to say for natural reasons.

So I dunno. Would be interesting to see something with Steve analyzed too in order to better be able to see how too players are failing to counterplay Steve properly. But meh I think you know better.

On another note I really hope Capitancito has a a real breakout performance soon. He ranked 44th in that new thing and he has so many impressive wins over and performances vs notable and top players. He's just inconsistent, dies to stupid stuff too often, and seems to struggle unnecessarily vs Peach.

He almost only ever does grounded charged missiles. This is generally safer but there's so many times where he has the space to safely do a short (or even full jumped charged missile but this is more for covering platforms) and he doesn't do it. This makes it easier to jump in on him. He doesn't need to short jump and missile a lot. He should just do it sometimes. It creates a mixup. It creates an additional thing the opponent has to keep track of and it makes opponent's have to think twice about jumping in on him. If you do mostly grounded missiles the odd short jumped one can really catch people off guard because they are assuming a grounded one and can miss Mii Gunner doing a short jumped one and then get hit giving you full stage control, this can kill people trying to go high when recovering or trying to get off the ledge too because people can just not notice the short jump because they are mentally taxed already fighting vs a trapping zoner.

This can really give you full stage control in neutral and net you kills in advantage. When people get desperate trying to get off the ledge vs Gunner a full or even double jumped missile can kill them. You can cover the ground at the same time with a bomb. I don't get why he doesn't do it. Vs Peach specifically a short jumped charged missiles covers the space she wants to approach from perfectly. This becomes very evident when watching his sets vs Peach players, they keep getting in on him the same way.
 
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NotLiquid

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 14, 2014
Messages
1,347
Double posting a bit since the thread is so low-activity, but I'd like to analyze a match for you guys. Anyone have a preference on a particular match or set they really like that they'd love to understand more in depth?
Since the tournament was brought up, how about the Losers Finals set of Maesuma Top 13?



I don't know if it's actually that interesting of a match to observe, especially since it features two characters not many consider "exciting" to watch, and it's not one of the more viewed sets of that tournament. But given Kameme temporarily switched into Sheik after winning a game (a MU that's considered heavily negative for Min Min) and failed to make it work, I'd be interested to hear an analysis behind the set, and what overall worked and didn't in regards to these character picks.
 
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Frihetsanka

Smash Champion
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Messages
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Location
Sweden
Double posting a bit since the thread is so low-activity, but I'd like to analyze a match for you guys. Anyone have a preference on a particular match or set they really like that they'd love to understand more in depth?
Maybe a Neo set? He's currently the #1 Corrin but he's not really all that well-known. Underrated player playing an underrated character. There are some sets to choose from, like this vs acola:

Other sets might also be interesting. Or other players/characters, up to you.
 

Swamp Sensei

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Double posting a bit since the thread is so low-activity, but I'd like to analyze a match for you guys. Anyone have a preference on a particular match or set they really like that they'd love to understand more in depth?

I'd love to see how Skyjay almost did the impossible.
 

NairWizard

Somewhere
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Oct 28, 2014
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Nice suggestions. All good sets to examine. I really only want to do one match though as an entire set takes a lot of time. So I'll pick something meta-relevant as Hippieslayer suggested; how about Leo vs. Sparg0 at Crown? Or Acola vs. Sparg0 at BOBC, or how about Proto vs. Tweek at Summit?
 

Frihetsanka

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An acola vs Sparg0 set sounds good, many people struggle to deal with Steve so it could be useful to analyze how Sparg0 does it so well. Maybe not BOBC though since acola used other characters versus Sparg0 at BOBC.
 
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NairWizard

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Sounds fine. Kagaribi Grand Finals set 1 game 1. You may want to follow along with the video for maximum benefit. I would have done a video analysis but I haven't got the time to edit a full video right now, so here we go:


Starting off the match at 0:26, Sparg0 slides forward and charges Limit. This is because he knows that acola is going to mine for materials the moment the match starts, so sliding forward wins him immediate stage control -- he's center stage and also below acola, which is great. The slight Limit Charge is just there because there's no reason to put out a hitbox yet and you don't lose anything by charging a bit of Limit. Sparg0 could have chosen to charge even longer here, but that would have wasted positional advantage. Instead, sparg0 opts for free pressure, swinging a f-air toward the platform.

This f-air is completely safe, as even if acola parries, the positional advantage sparg0 gained by sliding forward with Limit ensures that acola can't get anything from the exchange.
acola, aware of the situation, slides to the right off the platform with some materials in tow.

This is an example of Steve starting off the match on the back foot because has to mine. Most players don't take advantage of this positional lead because they give up center stage and let Steve roll into the middle. sparg0 doesn't, and in fact, he won't all set.

At 0:27, when sparg0 sees that the f-air is about to miss, he reacts to acola being in the corner by inputting turnaround, sliding back, and jumping. The non-fast-fall hop he does looks very slow, doesn't it? It's because he was preparing to react to acola rolling toward center with f-tilt. acola didn't give up the roll, so that's why sparg0 didn't f-tilt and instead just waited.

Instead, acola hung by the ledge hoping for a similar overcommitment by sparg0, but sparg0 also didn't overcommit, so acola decides this is his chance to commit to pulling a new tool from the crafting table. This is bad for acola, because sparg0 is in perfect position to react to this animation with b-air.

This b-air and the followup Cross Slash hit confirm are totally on reaction, so sparg0 has not had to do anything at all for this win so far. Since neutral was given away so freely, I have to wonder if it was intentional. Indeed, it looks like acola DIes Cross Slash up and away during 0:30 and uses dirt blocks to avoid followups, which lends some credence to the idea that acola might have expected to get hit and decided to take the early 30% to get materials.

After that, acola navigates back down with some tricky movement using Steve's fastfall. The reason sparg0 can't get a followup here is that he can't overcommit and let acola land and roll to center -- if sparg0 does that, then the significant advantage of getting to fight low-material Steve early in the match is lost, so the one thing that sparg0 cannot allow is for acola to roll in. This is why sparg0 spaces double b-airs at 0:35 and then dashes in toward center. Protecting center is the goal, and nothing else matters. Notice how quickly the full-hop spaced f-air at 0:37 is followed by an immediate dash back to center.

Do you notice sparg0 pausing here? Yep, he was preparing f-tilt to react to acola rolling in. The roll to center is everything here, it is the heart of this series of reactions and interactions, and both players know it very well.

However, after the next landed b-air, sparg0's patience cracks a bit a tiny bit. sparg0 commits to double jump at 0:39 and gets hit; he's unable to recover from the situation even with a parry and ends up losing both center and a bunch of %. This is a classic overextension punished by Steve's monstrous advantage state, and sparg0 takes 57 and gets Limit at the wrong time (acola isn't at a percent to die to Cross Slash, and sparg0 doesn't have center to make use of Limit).

You'll notice that sparg0 realizes his error and what he stands to give up and lands back on the stage with back to back aggressive f-airs at 0:47. This is a somewhat questionable way to land and acola could have grabbed him or parried him and possibly killed him here. I'm not sure why sparg0 did this. I wonder if he felt desperate to gain center back before acola has Diamond or if he thought that it was safe to take a risk because of the added recovery mixups that Limit provides. Either way, a better move might have been to use the platform to space rising and falling b-airs to win center and use Limit Blade Beam to pressure.

Still, acola isn't ready for the aggression and doesn't punish, instead choosing for safe rolls to find an opportunity to get materials. sparg0 notices all the rolling and is on the hunt -- at 0:51, sparg0 up-tilts in anticipation of another roll. acola does have something of a roll habit, so a few rolls instantly tells sparg0 that acola is on the defensive and possibly nervous. That's why sparg0 commits to the risky up-tilt at this time and gets punished.

In turn, you'll notice that acola actually does turn-around shield just before sparg0 up-tilts. This is because he's noticed all the aggressive f-airs and probably wants to parry and punish. However, once he sees the whiffed up-tilt he reacts to a grounded sparg0 being stuck in the middle of an animation and hits him.

The following Steve combo is pretty standard, with acola reading that sparg0 would tech in because of the desperate bid for center so far. I would have made the same read, but it was (in hindsight) way too risky especially given that sparg0 had Limit to recover with anyway. While it's true that a player who so desperately wants center will be more likely to tech in, the risk is high if the tech in doesn't happen, and sparg0 proves it by landing in and rolling out. acola's failed s-mash costs him center because sparg0 punishes with Limit Blade Beam, and Cloud's swift ground speed allows sparg0 to translate this into an advantageous position. This is a classic example of overextension leading into reversal. Both sides made plenty of mistakes in these few opening exchanges.

The close f-air in advantage at 0:56 is usually followed up by a roll, but sparg0 timed it so well that he had time to shield and punish OOS with n-air when acola tried to punish the f-air. Cloud's run-in f-airs are ambiguous and have different timings, and since Steve's grab isn't fast, many of these are unpunishable without parry.

0:58 is interesting, since the dirt block placement takes free advantage of earlier conditioning. sparg0 commits to double jump because acola was using dirt blocks earlier to stay out of b-air range and sparg0 expects that again, but this time acola drops low -- almost a really smart move, showing awareness of previous interactions. Unfortunately, acola seems a bit nervous and dips below stage to up-b, which leaves sparg0 enough time to react and slide into a ledge trump. The correct option for acola was just to drop down and grab ledge, because sparg0 wouldn't have been in range to punish and acola would have gotten to center stage. acola is overly tricky here unnecessarily and ends up cornered as a result of his extra caution.

At 1:01 acola again fails to parry and punish sparg0; sparg0's timing mixups are quite involved and we could probably write volumes about them, but suffice it to say that the timing of this particular b-air was different from all the previous ones, and it was spaced immaculately.

The early ledge trump scared acola into using Minecart to recover at 1:05, but boy, oh boy is this a bad decision. It might not seem bad in isolation, but think of the game in totality so far. The problem is that sparg0 is now fully conditioned to expect high recoveries. The first time, the high dirt block recovery led to acola staying in disadvantage until sparg0 overcommitted. The second time, sparg0 tried to punish a high recovery and was met with a low recovery, and he was still able to punish acola and keep him in disadvantage. If I'm sparg0 here, I'm thinking "there's no issue with punishing high right now, acola is playing too cautiously," and acola plays right into this and lets himself get b-aired.

At 1:08, sparg0 runs toward ledge to fake the ledge trump, forcing an option from acola. sparg0 just guesses and covers ledge jump. There's no reason to suspect one ledge option over another, so this is just a smart guess that pays off. The following guess at 1:14 is ledge jump again, but this time it's wrong, and acola gets back to stage and even punishes sparg0 for the bad guess. It's not the worst overcommitment ever as the reward is quite high.

At 1:22, acola has been conditioned to give sparg0 plenty of space because of Limit Blade Beam, so that's why he retreats to center to build blocks instead of setting up a ledge trap. sparg0 reads the defensive play habits and hits Limit Cross Slash at 1:26, and then he reacts to early Minecart by jumping with his back turned at 1:28. acola is used to the spacing of the late b-air so he jumps higher this time. This extra high "vertical descent" recovery makes sense. After all, sparg0 has punished him for both recovering high and low, so might as well go super high instead -- Anvil is a great move that doesn't allow punishment on reaction, one of Steve's privileges.

sparg0 doesn't do anything particularly innovative in response. He just maintains center stage and b-airs in places where acola might drift in to hit acola. Standard Cloud advantage state with a focus on keeping center.

1:31 is interesting. It seems that sparg0 began charging Limit in response to acola being hit; sparg0 wasn't expecting acola to tech the block. acola might not have expected to tech either since his immediate reaction was shield, so it seems they both panicked here, and sparg0 did the thing that most sword players do when they panic -- he jumped! To give some perspective, this jump is actually a super common swordie jump. When you're close to an opponent like this you want to jump and slowly drift away, aerialing if you react to your opponent staying in the same spot. Retreating swordie aerials toward center are hard to punish and acola did not have the positioning here to properly whiff punish, so this b-air was just free. If it hits, great. If not, great.

It does hit, but since sparg0 just came fresh out of panic mode, he doesn't seem to know what to do. He charges Limit after a pause, while acola feints another high recovery to go low. On ledge, notice that at 1:38 that sparg0 walks toward center in order to punish roll. acola doesn't give up the roll, instead choosing to wait for some commital movement to react to, so sparg0 decides to bait him. sparg0 jumps as if he intends to commit to b-air. This is a compelling bait because sparg0 is already facing toward center (back to ledge) and has b-aired before in the same position, so once acola sees the jump, acola snap-reacts and inputs roll -- sparg0's bait works and a reactive f-tilt seals stock 1.

At 1:44, acola's low materials allow sparg0 to space aggressive f-airs, d-tilts, and Cross Slashes. There's not much to say about these options. sparg0 is just continuing his advantage state from the previous stock. That's one of the things about fighting Steve -- your advantage state continues into the following stock sometimes, because once Steve is low on materials, he'll be low for a little while. Cloud is fast and ambiguous enough that acola doesn't have time to mine too many materials, and sparg0 takes full advantage of it, spacing aerials that Steve simply cannot punish while simultaneously juggling the pursuit of materials.

At 1:51 acola finally gets center stage because of a couple of misspacings, but sparg0 claims it back pretty easily with double jump. Steve can't punish Cloud full hop double jump too well, so sparg0 wins enough stage to dash back and dash back in. This dash back and dash forward sequence is the Elite Smash classic, and it's pretty bad in most situations since it tends to be predictable. But in this case, it's useful because acola gives up center -- sparg0 actually only dashes forward after the dash back in response to acola retreating to the right side of the stage.

The jump at 1:56 is a "wait and see" jump. sparg0 was probably thinking "n-air or f-air?" while jumping and hadn't decided on one or the other, deferring the decision to mid-drift. When acola commits to jump himself though, sparg0 commits to the f-air in reaction. Cloud f-air punishes every single jump option that Steve has.
But the n-air was definitely prepared, likely for grounded Steve. You can actually see trace evidence of n-air lingering in sparg0's mind because he uses it at 2:00. He's definitely thinking that some of these panic situations they've gotten into in scrambles could be better handled with n-airs, so n-air has just become part of the mental toolkit for the match, albeit only briefly.

After that, acola commits to up-smash in desperation. sparg0 baited him way too easily with that double jump, so easily that I don't even know if I can call it a bait. sparg0's been double jumping a lot, so there was no reason to suspect that he'd land on the platform above Steve in this particular situation.
As acola whiffs, sparg0 commits to dash attack here for the punish. I'm gonna say that the block saving acola here was mostly accidental, meaning that no, acola probably didn't place the block there with the intention of saving himself from punishment after a whiffed up-smash. It's possible, but the disadvantage for Steve has just felt too desperate so far for that kind of intentional planning ahead to be possible.

At 2:11, notice how sparg0 holds advantage state. He uses slow-drift jumps where he's ready to react to any kind of roll with an aerial. He will not let acola have center at any cost, and he only ever commits to b-air in positions where acola can't react to the b-air and roll in. Look at how hurriedly he jumps away at 2:12 in reaction to acola jumping close to him. He's likely thinking "must keep center, must keep advantage." At 2:15 he reacts to the parry by shielding instead of dashing, jumping, or spotdodging -- signifying his intent to retain center.

At 2:23 you'll notice how sparg0 once again double jumps into center as soon as acola claims it. acola absolutely cannot maintain center against a double jumping Cloud, and that's one of sparg0's biggest advantages so far.

At 2:28, sparg0 feints an up-air in order to drift forward and b-air the Steve stall. Notice that sparg0 hasn't used any up-airs at all in this match despite it being a staple of his typical advantage state. This is because you don't need up-air against Steve -- Steve is too slow in the air; every possible Steve mixup is covered by b-air and the appropriate drift.

2:33 is just artistry in a strongly advantaged position. acola is locked in shield without resources, so sparg0 could have done any fancy movement he wanted here, and it would have had the same result. It looks cool, but it's not too meaningful. He anti-airs with up-tilt and even goes for an up-air for the first time in the game to catch a possible airdodge.

After this, sparg0 loses sight of keeping center for a while. He's likely in, "I want to get this match over with and move on to the next game" mentality here, because he even commits to full Cross Slash and and low up-airs, in stark contrast to his behavior the past couple of stocks. His neutral play still consists of great spacing and fantasies mixups, though, and since Steve is low on resources, this aggression makes sense. This section finishes off as acola is forced to drift in to sparg0 around 3:03 because of all the Cloud double-jumps that retake center, so sparg0 takes advantage and pivots into a Limit Cross Slash. Notice how hard it is for Steve to reversal Cloud, whereas Cloud reversaling Steve is easy.

Watch 3:05. sparg0 hits the Cross Slash, then jumps in reaction to acola's drift, in order to prepare positioning to punish a landing. He reacts almost instantly to the block by swinging b-air, but acola fastfalls down to ledge and avoids it. Remember earlier when I said fastfall down and grab ledge immediately is the best answer to sparg0 double jumping when acola is in disadvantage? Yep, here it is. This is the right play. By making this play, acola even wins center from disadvantage for the first time! He's able to get the roll he's been wanting all game and even punishes sparg0 a couple of times. All because of one small decision in disadvantage, acola gets a bunch of materials and even kills sparg0.

On sparg0's side, he's definitely a little overly eager to finish the match. A slight turndown in the pace would have been good for him here and probably less risky. acola already had center and was gaining lots of materials, so spacing b-airs might have been sounder than committing to a dash attack at 3:22. Still, not a bad move in the moment with a lead so large.

Credit to sparg0, he realizes his own overeagerness and becomes very patient after this, using fallthrough b-air from platform as I suggested earlier (the pinnacle of Cloud defensive play) and then even waiting for a roll to grab acola shortly after.

At 3:34, notice again that sparg0 doesn't commit to up-air. Jumping and waiting for the Steve drift in order to line up a b-air is an option that Steve has to jump through a thousand hoops to even hope to answer, so sparg0 can pretty much always commit to this tactic to set up ledge trap situations.

After that, the match finishes with one last bait from sparg0 -- jump to feint b-air, wait for acola to react to the jump, and then f-tilt reactively. Recall that sparg0 did this earlier with roll, too. One of acola's weaknesses as a player is overreliance on his own reaction time; when getting off the ledge, acola always waits for some kind of signal from the opponent before choosing a ledge option, and sparg0 is easily able to bait him as a result.

And that's game 1.
sparg0 keeps center, baits acola when acola is in disadvantage, and pushes advantage each time acola is out of materials.
Moves sparg0 mostly avoids (using maybe once): up-air, grab, Blade Beam, n-air, random Cross Slashes in neutral, up-smash, d-tilts.
Moves that circle through his toolkit this match: b-air, double jump, Limit Blade Beam, f-air.

Using a small, precise toolkit, keeping center, and relying on baits when in advantage let sparg0 win this match pretty handily.
 

williamsga555

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 8, 2015
Messages
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Japan
Very fun read-a-long with the match, cheers for taking the time and effort to go through that.

I think your point about not taking the bread-and-butter followup in advantage (Cloud up air against a landing opponent in this case) and instead focusing on a more matchup-specific, nuanced choice (lining up bair everytime) is important. I know that I (and likely many other players) get too comfortable going for the stuff that always works when a better option might exist for more specific scenarios. It's pretty insightful to get one focused example like this pointed out, I think. Good stuff good stuff
 

NairWizard

Somewhere
Joined
Oct 28, 2014
Messages
1,947
I'll get to the other suggested sets (first game of each set probably) as well, but if anyone has other game suggestions, please let me know. I'm happy to put my knowledge to some use since I don't really do anything else with it these days (I don't play any more and don't coach anyone).
 

The_Bookworm

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 10, 2018
Messages
3,228
After the last 2 months of chaotic high level tournaments and we are currently in a relatively quiet month for high level tournaments, we haven't talked about character viability in a while. There are quite a bit characters that I definitely am seeing a lot of mixed opinions on. I will give my insight on some of them to flare up some discussion (did this few times before, maybe it is will work this time?).

:ultkazuya: Kazuya is in a weird position, despite still doing very well in tournaments. I say this, because as of right now, Riddles seems to be singlehandely carrying home the high level placements right now, alongside his usage of Terry, and as such the character isn't crowding tournaments as often as you would expect someone ranked #7 in the tier list to be. For example, in the current EchoRank 2023, Riddles is the only player within the entire top 100 to main the character. While Tea and Tarik does use Kazuya in their own right, their Pac-Man and Greninja, respectively, is still the star of their lineup and they seem to be leaning towards those characters more lately (EchoRank doesn't even credit Tarik's Kazuya at all, although that may be an error).

The end result is a kinda bizarre situation for the character as a whole, where Riddles is performing better than ever with the character (alongside Terry as well), but the character's results as a whole is far more centralized around Riddles' tournament performances. Because of this, it also makes it uncertain how much Riddles' recent focus on Street Fighter 6 is going to impact Kazuya's high level results in the long run. I know that EchoRank 2023 isn't a fully accurate representation of the current top 100 playerbase, but the character, especially in high/top level, is looking more and more specialized as time goes on.

:ultroy: Roy felt like he was on top of the world last year, especially in the earlier portions of it, enough to be ranked #8 in the tier list. But now, this character seems to have vanished? Or at the very least, not many players are really talking about Roy anymore, and it is kinda easy to see why. Pretty much all of Roy's high level players (Kola, Goblin, etc.) has either fell off in results or isn't competing nearly as often, or both. Feels kinda drastic on how much this character slingshot in high level tournament presence in the span of a year without any balance changes or new characters added.

Out of all of the characters I am discussing, this is the one I would like to see want you lot's thoughts on the most. What in the meta changed between 2022 to 2023 for Roy's tournament presence to fall off so much? Is it unrelated to the meta?

:ultsnake: Snake pretty much snatched Roy's 2022 spotlight for the new year. Snake has always been very meta relevant, but if there is any character that benefitted from 2023's meta, it is Snake. ApolloKage leveled up this year to give us some fantastic results with the character. However arguably more importantly than that is that Snake players across the world have provided new sustenance for the character, players like Hurt, MVD, DIO, Chronos, the list goes on. Snake is the new hotness that doesn't seem to be cooling off anytime soon, especially if CEO 2023 has any saying the matter, so I will not be surprised if the character achieves the top 10 placement in the next official tier list.

:ultrob: :ultgnw: Once upon a time, during the first year of Brawl, both of these character were considered top 5 in the game. That was obviously not the case and they both ended up being very solid mid tiers in that game (and SSB4), but it seems that the possibility of this may have popped up again.

Zomba is doing even better than ever, beating both MkLeo and Tweek in two tournaments in a row, and then reverse 3-0'd the player that sent him to loser's in the tournament prior to win the whole event. He is now incorporating footstool -> dair OoS to his gameplan and it worked especially well in his set versus Shuton. ROB as a whole has always been an extremely prominent character in Ultimate's lifetime, just barely missing out in the top 5 placement in the official tier list, but this seems like a real possibility next time around.

Game & Watch is the far interesting one. To me, Game & Watch's #18 in the previous tier list was already a heavy understatement. For some reason, despite this character's consistently strong performances by Maister through the first few years of the game, players are always hesitant to give the character the top 15, even top 20 placement in tier lists. Now with Miya elevating Game & Watch's metagame presence to new heights, and Maister still placing very well despite being noticeably less active than one before, the discussion of top 10/5 Game & Watch is now flaring up high, which is a very real possibility.

:ultshulk::ultsephiroth: Current meta (and honestly the way the meta has trended since late 2022) has not treated the comically large sword bois very well.

While Shulk still possesses some occasional good placements here and there, it is quite clear that the character has now fully fallen behind the top dogs of the metagame, with overall placements comparable to the B tier characters and Kome not nearly as active or consistently well placing in tournaments as he used to. Maybe there will come a day where he can rise back to the top? In the end, he is still plagued with his poor frame data issues, and I feel that players got better overall in playing around his Monado Arts.

Sephiroth has it even worse. While he still see occasional secondary usage from Tweek, Sephiroth's presence in high level has fallen off quite a bit. Diddy is still by far the primary force for Tweek, and results from his other players (i.e. Ned) feels fairly shaky at times. KEN has also used Sephiroth less and less in comparison to Sonic, and from what I heard, is overall a lot less positive on the character as a whole. While his frame data is not as weak as Shulk's, it is still present while he still possesses his high fragility. Not sure if he fallen enough to be outright knocked out of high tier, but he definitely has fallen behind in comparison to his peers in the high tiers.

:ultbrawler: Mii Brawler continues to be the biggest tiering anomaly in the entire game, has been since 2021. They are purely used as a niche counterpick character for certain top players, namely Bloom4Eva, ESAM, Hikaru, Rizeasu, and Kameme. However, the success of this secondary brawler has been very sporatic, with Bloom4Eva being the most consistently successful with it.
Even so, it is still purely being used as a fringe secondary character: genuine usage of Mii Brawler as a main, let alone as a solo main, in high level (or even mid level) play is close to non-existent. Still, opinion on the character is high, leading it being ranked #37 at the bottom of high tier, above quite a lot of other characters that obtained stronger tournament results/higher metagame relevancy.
Since I don't see this character being talked about too much, I would like you lot's opinions on this character.


That is all I like to talk about now. Other characters I am interested in discussing is the Links, Hero, Wii Fit, Lucas, Sora, Ike, and Pichu, but feel free to talk about... anyone at this point. We need more activity in this thread.
 

Hydreigonfan01

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 24, 2018
Messages
4,576
:ultroy: Roy felt like he was on top of the world last year, especially in the earlier portions of it, enough to be ranked #8 in the tier list. But now, this character seems to have vanished? Or at the very least, not many players are really talking about Roy anymore, and it is kinda easy to see why. Pretty much all of Roy's high level players (Kola, Goblin, etc.) has either fell off in results or isn't competing nearly as often, or both. Feels kinda drastic on how much this character slingshot in high level tournament presence in the span of a year without any balance changes or new characters added.

Out of all of the characters I am discussing, this is the one I would like to see want you lot's thoughts on the most. What in the meta changed between 2022 to 2023 for Roy's tournament presence to fall off so much? Is it unrelated to the meta?

:ultsnake: Snake pretty much snatched Roy's 2022 spotlight for the new year. Snake has always been very meta relevant, but if there is any character that benefitted from 2023's meta, it is Snake. ApolloKage leveled up this year to give us some fantastic results with the character. However arguably more importantly than that is that Snake players across the world have provided new sustenance for the character, players like Hurt, MVD, DIO, Chronos, the list goes on. Snake is the new hotness that doesn't seem to be cooling off anytime soon, especially if CEO 2023 has any saying the matter, so I will not be surprised if the character achieves the top 10 placement in the next official tier list.
I actually think Roy is hurt pretty badly from Snake rising up in usage, as well as G&W. Those two matchups are pretty tricky for Roy mains, with Kola having a bad record against ApolloKage and MVD in particular, and lost to Miya at BOBC5. Steve and Kazuya are still relevant in the meta, and beat Roy. I think a lot of the characters that are often seen at the moment are some of the best characters against Roy, and Roy has fallen out of favour compared to the likes of :ultpyra: :ultmythra: and :ultcloud:, who do very well against the characters that beat Roy. Peach/Daisy also seems to be doing well, and Kola has long struggled in the Peach vs Roy matchup against MuteAce.
 
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Rizen

Smash Legend
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Messages
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Location
Fascist ****Hole Of America
I think that :ultroy: got a lot of mileage out of being a heavily fundamentals character. If you had good fundies he was very easy to pick up and play and got heavy rewards off of his kill power. Sweetspotting with Roy was evidentially not an issue like with Marth; I guess his great mobility made getting in close easy enough. I think he's falling off for similar reasons as Lucina: people somewhat lost interest and better picks popped up the DLC grapevine.

As for the Links, none of them were ever amazing characters. A lot of people tend to overrate them at first because they can destroy you if you don't know the MUs. Also IMO Link does better on wifi. TL and YL are a bit more viable than big Link but the game's proven over the years that projectile specialists are good but not as good as top tiers like Ageis, Steve, Joker, etc. Frankly anything they can do in terms of counterpicking and zoning for specific MUs, Samus can do just as well but with better hitboxes, recovery and much better weight. The Links are good enough they'll always have a niche in tournaments, especially YL who is the best of them imo. But they're not top 8 characters for anything bigger than regionals. You'll probably see them pop up in the top 32 range every so often.
 

NairWizard

Somewhere
Joined
Oct 28, 2014
Messages
1,947
Since the tournament was brought up, how about the Losers Finals set of Maesuma Top 13?



I don't know if it's actually that interesting of a match to observe, especially since it features two characters not many consider "exciting" to watch, and it's not one of the more viewed sets of that tournament. But given Kameme temporarily switched into Sheik after winning a game (a MU that's considered heavily negative for Min Min) and failed to make it work, I'd be interested to hear an analysis behind the set, and what overall worked and didn't in regards to these character picks.
OK, here we go. I'll be doing the first match of this set.

To start with, let's talk about Min Min vs. Sheik. This matchup is commonly believed to be in Sheik's favor, but why? It's because of Sheik's strong horizontal carry and approach angles. Sheik's advantage state is really strong vs. Min Min and can often rob her of early stocks, but to really enjoy this, you have to be able to convert and never let Min Min reversal you at ledge. If your advantage state with Sheik is lackluster, this matchup is bad for Sheik, because Min Min gets a lot out of a single hit on Sheik.

One of Sheik's biggest advantages in general is Bouncing Fish, drift speed, and up-b in disadvantage, but Min Min doesn't care about any of these. Arms eat through all of Sheik's offstage options and Min Min eviscerates Sheik offstage just as easily as she eviscerates someone of much weaker overall recovery. So this matchup is about taking your conversions (as Sheik) as far as possible to negate Min Min's strong advantage state.

Sheik can do that.

Kameme's Sheik doesn't.

Now to the match itself.

Doramigi starts the match by jumping, which does absolutely nothing at all, and Kameme starts the match by dropping down from the platform, gaining stage control, and promptly giving up ALL stage control by dashing to the corner and retreating. Huh?

This opening exchange really doesn't make much sense. It's hard to take center from Sheik, so Doramigi might have been thinking to jump and drift to center with a n-air, using ambiguous air drift, but more likely that there was no plan here and they were both just doing inputs due to uncertainty with the matchup.

Then at 0:10, Doramigi immediately overextends by grabbing. Sheik has a bunch of noncommittal movement options like her double jump, so there was no reason to grab here even if Kameme was cornered. Kameme responds by fastfalling after the jump out of shield to punish the whiff with a grab on reaction.

And here is where we see the weakness of Kameme's Sheik first appear in this matchup. Kameme punishes with d-throw into f-air f-air for a measly 15% and tries an immediate aerial f-air to follow up -- the wrong choice.

Here, you really have two choices. One, you could rely on strong ledgetrapping and keep Min Min at ledge forever, or two, you could go for an aggressive read and try to win an early stock. You could read airdodge to ledge, drift away, or n-air. Read something and commit to it, even if you might get reversaled. This is your chance to win the lead and the game!

Instead, Kameme does neither. He lets the advantage state go, choosing to play it safe and charge Needles and then... having nothing in mind for a ledgetrap. What was he doing? He empty hopped and then shielded, possibly waiting for neutral getup. But what if Doramigi rolled or jumped? The option doesn't make sense, and Kameme gets reversaled right after.

Despite this reversal, luckily at 0:19 Doramigi overextends expecting a high jump from Sheik; honestly, this overextension makes sense as he could have sniped Kameme out of a double jump and gotten the stock here, so Doramigi at least is playing the matchup correctly on his side.

Kameme once again punishes overextension on reaction and shows off Sheik's strong horizontal carry, but then then immediately makes the same mistake on the left side as he made on the right side, swinging an immediate aerial and giving up advantage state and getting reversaled. Min Min still had a double jump and it was too soon to commit to the second drift forward b-air. A bait or a hard read will always be better than immediate swings if you're not comfortable in your ledgetrapping. Immediate swings are good for forcing the opponent to go to ledge, but in this case, ledge is not a compelling position for Kameme.

0:30 is another instance of Kameme's poor ledgetrapping with Sheik; not only does Kameme fail to hit Doramigi, but he shields and gives up all stage control, getting reversaled by roll. This is the exact opposite of what we saw Sparg0 consistently doing vs. acola. It's much harder to maintain stage control as Sheik than it is as Cloud, but still, this attempt is not the best option.

As you can see at 0:37, when Kameme gets a hit, it's usually because of Doramigi overextending, and when Kameme gets such hits on one side of the stage, he is very proficient at pushing Doramigi to the other side of the stage and wracking up percent. Kameme's Sheik is great at on-stage advantage. But offstage, once again we see a swing too soon with Bouncing Fish at 0:39, after which gets Kameme punished.

Same pattern repeated three times. Punish overextension, successfully get Min Min offstage -- then swing too soon and forfeit advantage.

After that, 0:40 is a great demonstration of Needles in the matchup. Needles are really hard for Min Min to deal with since she has to commit to something dangerous, and then you can snipe her with f-air or n-air when she does since Sheik is so fast. You'd see a lot of great Needle conditioning in this match if Kameme could maintain a proper advantage state offstage, because Doramigi would have a lot more reason to fear stray n-airs and f-airs. As is, there isn't much reason to fear being offstage, so Doramigi can play around Needles however he wants.

Completely whiffing again at 0:46 and being reversaled again, Kameme once again lucks out because Doramigi overextends. Are you seeing a pattern?

At 1:16 the parry is really nice on the n-air; Doramigi has landed aggressively before, and Kameme takes advantage of some of his own poor ledgeplay to serve as conditioning. This is something that you'll see players sometimes do. "I've played this situation very badly in the past, so I can expect my opponent to respond to more bad play and sneak in a counter here." Pretty excellent situational awareness and it wins Kameme the first stock.

But at this point, even though it looks like Kameme is ahead, the discerning viewer will give the advantage to Doramigi. Kameme has found absolutely no consistent ledgetrapping or edgeguarding on Min Min with Sheik so far, and Min Min is getting away with a lot of risks.

When Doramigi respawns at 1:20, Kameme should sit in shield. Min Min's grab is a pretty big commitment and Doramigi would probably not have committed to grab after respawning even though he's demonstrated willingness to grab earlier in the match. Jumping allowed Kameme to get killed instantly here.

Going for the f-air at 1:25 is not the best decision, because it doesn't lead to a meaningful advantage state. It's just a single stray hit at 0, and if you get reversaled (which happens), then you can potentially take a lot of damage. It would have been better to get Min Min into a more favorable position to start a cross-stage carry first, instead of immediately seeing an opportunity and swinging. This is the kind of situation where Kameme would be much more aware if he were playing his main, Sora, instead of a secondary. As secondaries, you often feel like you must swing when there's an opening, whereas you tend to be more disciplined with your main.

Doramigi covers just about everything on the stage in response during the reversal; it's hard to even comment about this sequence. It's beautiful and pretty much left Kameme no options from 15 to 67. Note that this is the first time that Doramigi doesn't overcommit after getting a hit -- this is because the initial hit started from the left side of the stage and hit Sheik to the right, so there was no reason to risk a reversal with an overcommitment as there's nothing to be gained (you won't win a stock). Instead, Doramigi maintains the perfect amount of stage control, leaving 3/4 of the stage for Min Min's arms while keeping the other 1/4 available for mixups. If not for the misinput at 1:35, Doramigi might have carried this advantage through the stock.

Kameme lacks confidence in his ledgetrapping and edgeguarding in this MU so he chooses to do neither at 1:42, and the match is already over. Once you are completely out of a gameplan and have no more ideas, you aren't winning. He doesn't even have a good handle on Min Min's ledge roll distance and isn't prepared to react to it, so he gets reversaled again.

The only thing that's really working is Needles, so you see Kameme going for Needles at 1:55, but they're not effective. Why? Because there's no threat attached to the Needles. Doramigi can do whatever he wants because he knows that Kameme can't actually convert, so there's no conditioning game here and the Needles are hardly more than an annoyance.

The only other part of the match worth calling out is 2:00, where what I said at the start begins to show -- Sheik's strong return-to-ledge game is nullified against Min Min, and Min Min can easily 2-frame Sheik, and hit Sheik even if Sheik chooses to up-b from above the stage if it's not at the perfect angle. Without a strong advantage game, Kameme can't contend with this significant advantage on Min Min's side.
 

StrangeKitten

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 25, 2020
Messages
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Location
Battle Royal Dome
After the last 2 months of chaotic high level tournaments and we are currently in a relatively quiet month for high level tournaments, we haven't talked about character viability in a while. There are quite a bit characters that I definitely am seeing a lot of mixed opinions on. I will give my insight on some of them to flare up some discussion (did this few times before, maybe it is will work this time?).

:ultkazuya: Kazuya is in a weird position, despite still doing very well in tournaments. I say this, because as of right now, Riddles seems to be singlehandely carrying home the high level placements right now, alongside his usage of Terry, and as such the character isn't crowding tournaments as often as you would expect someone ranked #7 in the tier list to be. For example, in the current EchoRank 2023, Riddles is the only player within the entire top 100 to main the character. While Tea and Tarik does use Kazuya in their own right, their Pac-Man and Greninja, respectively, is still the star of their lineup and they seem to be leaning towards those characters more lately (EchoRank doesn't even credit Tarik's Kazuya at all, although that may be an error).

The end result is a kinda bizarre situation for the character as a whole, where Riddles is performing better than ever with the character (alongside Terry as well), but the character's results as a whole is far more centralized around Riddles' tournament performances. Because of this, it also makes it uncertain how much Riddles' recent focus on Street Fighter 6 is going to impact Kazuya's high level results in the long run. I know that EchoRank 2023 isn't a fully accurate representation of the current top 100 playerbase, but the character, especially in high/top level, is looking more and more specialized as time goes on.

:ultroy: Roy felt like he was on top of the world last year, especially in the earlier portions of it, enough to be ranked #8 in the tier list. But now, this character seems to have vanished? Or at the very least, not many players are really talking about Roy anymore, and it is kinda easy to see why. Pretty much all of Roy's high level players (Kola, Goblin, etc.) has either fell off in results or isn't competing nearly as often, or both. Feels kinda drastic on how much this character slingshot in high level tournament presence in the span of a year without any balance changes or new characters added.

Out of all of the characters I am discussing, this is the one I would like to see want you lot's thoughts on the most. What in the meta changed between 2022 to 2023 for Roy's tournament presence to fall off so much? Is it unrelated to the meta?

:ultsnake: Snake pretty much snatched Roy's 2022 spotlight for the new year. Snake has always been very meta relevant, but if there is any character that benefitted from 2023's meta, it is Snake. ApolloKage leveled up this year to give us some fantastic results with the character. However arguably more importantly than that is that Snake players across the world have provided new sustenance for the character, players like Hurt, MVD, DIO, Chronos, the list goes on. Snake is the new hotness that doesn't seem to be cooling off anytime soon, especially if CEO 2023 has any saying the matter, so I will not be surprised if the character achieves the top 10 placement in the next official tier list.

:ultrob: :ultgnw: Once upon a time, during the first year of Brawl, both of these character were considered top 5 in the game. That was obviously not the case and they both ended up being very solid mid tiers in that game (and SSB4), but it seems that the possibility of this may have popped up again.

Zomba is doing even better than ever, beating both MkLeo and Tweek in two tournaments in a row, and then reverse 3-0'd the player that sent him to loser's in the tournament prior to win the whole event. He is now incorporating footstool -> dair OoS to his gameplan and it worked especially well in his set versus Shuton. ROB as a whole has always been an extremely prominent character in Ultimate's lifetime, just barely missing out in the top 5 placement in the official tier list, but this seems like a real possibility next time around.

Game & Watch is the far interesting one. To me, Game & Watch's #18 in the previous tier list was already a heavy understatement. For some reason, despite this character's consistently strong performances by Maister through the first few years of the game, players are always hesitant to give the character the top 15, even top 20 placement in tier lists. Now with Miya elevating Game & Watch's metagame presence to new heights, and Maister still placing very well despite being noticeably less active than one before, the discussion of top 10/5 Game & Watch is now flaring up high, which is a very real possibility.

:ultshulk::ultsephiroth: Current meta (and honestly the way the meta has trended since late 2022) has not treated the comically large sword bois very well.

While Shulk still possesses some occasional good placements here and there, it is quite clear that the character has now fully fallen behind the top dogs of the metagame, with overall placements comparable to the B tier characters and Kome not nearly as active or consistently well placing in tournaments as he used to. Maybe there will come a day where he can rise back to the top? In the end, he is still plagued with his poor frame data issues, and I feel that players got better overall in playing around his Monado Arts.

Sephiroth has it even worse. While he still see occasional secondary usage from Tweek, Sephiroth's presence in high level has fallen off quite a bit. Diddy is still by far the primary force for Tweek, and results from his other players (i.e. Ned) feels fairly shaky at times. KEN has also used Sephiroth less and less in comparison to Sonic, and from what I heard, is overall a lot less positive on the character as a whole. While his frame data is not as weak as Shulk's, it is still present while he still possesses his high fragility. Not sure if he fallen enough to be outright knocked out of high tier, but he definitely has fallen behind in comparison to his peers in the high tiers.

:ultbrawler: Mii Brawler continues to be the biggest tiering anomaly in the entire game, has been since 2021. They are purely used as a niche counterpick character for certain top players, namely Bloom4Eva, ESAM, Hikaru, Rizeasu, and Kameme. However, the success of this secondary brawler has been very sporatic, with Bloom4Eva being the most consistently successful with it.
Even so, it is still purely being used as a fringe secondary character: genuine usage of Mii Brawler as a main, let alone as a solo main, in high level (or even mid level) play is close to non-existent. Still, opinion on the character is high, leading it being ranked #37 at the bottom of high tier, above quite a lot of other characters that obtained stronger tournament results/higher metagame relevancy.
Since I don't see this character being talked about too much, I would like you lot's opinions on this character.


That is all I like to talk about now. Other characters I am interested in discussing is the Links, Hero, Wii Fit, Lucas, Sora, Ike, and Pichu, but feel free to talk about... anyone at this point. We need more activity in this thread.
:ultrob: easily makes my personal top 5, and :ultgnw: would go somewhere in my top 10. I think people have stopped underestimating ROB, but I agree they still underestimate G&W a bit. His only flaws, being light and struggling to kill sometimes, hardly ever come up, and his strengths are downright egregious.

I think the reason :ultbrawler: sees little use as a main is because the Miis are so lacking in personality. I'd imagine it would get pretty dull to play such a blank state character, in addition to having to get your move selection set up. The character is pretty strong, though. Especially on triplats where Brawler gets really good extensions.
 

sal ig

Smash Apprentice
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I've only recently gotten into the competetive scene of smash but should I switch from doc to olimar??? Idk like I love playing as doc and all but I also have fun with olimar and from what ive seen he's an A tier character so like should I switch my main or keep doc as a secondary???
 

Aligo

Smash Ace
Joined
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Messages
535
I've only recently gotten into the competetive scene of smash but should I switch from doc to olimar??? Idk like I love playing as doc and all but I also have fun with olimar and from what ive seen he's an A tier character so like should I switch my main or keep doc as a secondary???
I would suggest that a good thing to do would be to exclusively play olimar for a few weeks, both to improve with the character and to see how much you enjoy them. If by the end of that time you find that you prefer olimar to doc, you can probably switch over.

As far as having doc as a secondary goes, you might want to check if he covers any of olimars bad matchups, because if he doesn't, you would probably see better success sticking to just olimar, then later getting a relatively low investment pocket character for bad matchups, like aegis or wolf.

That is what I would suggest, and I imagine others will chip in as well.
 

sal ig

Smash Apprentice
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in the bathroom
I would suggest that a good thing to do would be to exclusively play olimar for a few weeks, both to improve with the character and to see how much you enjoy them. If by the end of that time you find that you prefer olimar to doc, you can probably switch over.

As far as having doc as a secondary goes, you might want to check if he covers any of olimars bad matchups, because if he doesn't, you would probably see better success sticking to just olimar, then later getting a relatively low investment pocket character for bad matchups, like aegis or wolf.

That is what I would suggest, and I imagine others will chip in as well.
Thx ill see what I can do
 

Aligo

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 12, 2021
Messages
535
Thx ill see what I can do
No problem, if you find yourself wondering how to learn more in depth about olimar, he like every other character has a mains discord, which may be worth checking out. They would certainly know more.
 

Frihetsanka

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 26, 2016
Messages
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Sweden
New Reddit tier list:
08d583b6bf21e0b98fa6786586c17c3a.png


Overall it's a pretty good tier list. I think Corrin is too low (but I expected she would be, most Reddit voters probably don't watch Neo much), and Toon Link might be too low (I'm not entirely sure but I think the character could be a bit higher).
 

Hydreigonfan01

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 24, 2018
Messages
4,576
New Reddit tier list: View attachment 374820

Overall it's a pretty good tier list. I think Corrin is too low (but I expected she would be, most Reddit voters probably don't watch Neo much), and Toon Link might be too low (I'm not entirely sure but I think the character could be a bit higher).
I personally believe Pyra/Mythra should be higher then Joker and Sonic too, with Sonic and Joker having swapped places. Otherwise I like it a lot.
 

Frihetsanka

Smash Champion
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I personally believe Pyra/Mythra should be higher then Joker and Sonic too, with Sonic and Joker having swapped places. Otherwise I like it a lot.
I think Pyra/Mythra are somewhat overrated in practice. In theory they're busted, but in practice they don't seem to live up to the theory. ESAM made a video where he talked about the difference between a tournament tier list and a theory-based tier list, and his tier lists are generally more theory based, but he made a top 10 list for tournaments (and Pikachu didn't make top 10). Personally, I think it makes more sense to make a tier list based on how well a character does in a tournament setting. Humans aren't robots, they make mistakes, and characters that can pressure other players into making mistakes tend do do better in tournaments.

Aegis? They're prone to being pressured, mostly because of their poor recovery. Another issue with Aegis in tournaments is that they can have trouble killing at times. Sure, Pyra has amazing kill power... In advantage, and swapping to Pyra makes it more likely for your opponent to make a comeback against you. I don't know how many times I've seen MkLeo or Cosmos try to play as Pyra for a while, trying to get the kill, never securing it... Or staying as Mythra and trying to eventually score a kill as Mythra, in order to not have to play as Pyra. Sometimes it works, but often it can be a rough situation to be in.

Don't get me wrong, Aegis is still a very strong tournament character. In theory, the character is pretty busted. In practice, the flaws of the character are making Cosmos and MkLeo Aegis somewhat inconsistent, and a character few seem willing to solo main. ESAM said that Aegis is barely top 10 for a tournament tier list, and that their weak recovery could make them fall outside of top 10. That doesn't seem too far-fetched to me, given the recent somewhat lackluster (relativity speaking) performance by many Aegis players not named Shuton (and he also uses Olimar quite a bit).

ESAM also made a video where he claimed that Roy is better than Aegis. Turns out being able to play neutral and get kills without having to swap forms is really valuable, and one of the issues with characters like Aegis, Pokémon Trainer, and Shulk. Granted, all three are strong (PT and Shulk more likely high tier than top tier, Aegis top tier but maybe not quite top 5), but characters like Roy, Cloud, and ROB can play their game without having to switch forms.

Unfortunately, not everyone will agree what a tier list should represent. ESAM believes tier lists (or at least the tier lists he makes) should be more theoretically based. I believe tier lists (or at least the ones I make) should reflect how good the characters are in a tournament setting. Sometimes placements overlap (both of us agree that Steve is likely #1 in the game), sometimes they very much don't (ESAM puts Pikachu #2, I don't have Pikachu in top 10).

In ESAM's most recent tier list (theory-based, not tournament tier list) he put Aegis #5, but in the tournament tier list he said Aegis might not be top 10 due to their recovery (although he still put them in top 10 for now). Based on what he's said since then he might not put Aegis in top 5 even in his theory-based tier list (I guess we'll see when he makes a new one).

He also put ROB #14, Sonic #15, Snake #17, Kazuya #20, yet all of them were top 10 in his tournament based tier list. So that's interesting, since the Reddit tier list put all of them in top 10 (aside from Snake who got #12).

Given that I tend to agree with the Reddit tier list significantly more than ESAM's tier list, I think it seems fairly reasonable to assume that Reddit voters, in general, tend to vote more from a "how good is this character in a tournament" perspective than a theory-based perspective. Snake and Min MIn could be a bit higher though, I think those two characters are really good in practice.

Oh yeah, ESAM had Cloud as #29, which surprises me a bit. That seems really low for Cloud. I think Reddit is closer to Cloud's real placement there. Theory vs tournament? Cloud is really good in a tournament setting (his recovery isn't even that bad) but I guess in theory he has some issues, maybe... I'm not really sure why those issues would drag him down all the way down to #29. I wonder where ESAM would put Cloud if he made a new tier list? His tier list is over 8 months old, after all.
 

Hippieslayer

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 12, 2008
Messages
959
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Azeroth
They really made some weird choices regarding what sets to show on stream yesterday. Like showing neither Tweeks upset (strange because everyone knows Tweek struggles vs DHD) nor Leo vs Capitancito.

Must say Cosmos was looking pretty good despite falling to Yodacage. He handled Ouch much better than Leo's Aegis.
 

Hydreigonfan01

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 24, 2018
Messages
4,576
They really made some weird choices regarding what sets to show on stream yesterday. Like showing neither Tweeks upset (strange because everyone knows Tweek struggles vs DHD) nor Leo vs Capitancito.

Must say Cosmos was looking pretty good despite falling to Yodacage. He handled Ouch much better than Leo's Aegis.
Ironic for Luminosity's stream not showing Leo or Tweek play, given their sponsored by the org.
 

NairWizard

Somewhere
Joined
Oct 28, 2014
Messages
1,947
This tournament is one of the worst spectatorship experiences I've ever had. Tweek vs. Dabuz was offstream? Why? What?
Zomba-Sparg0 and Leo-Sonix are quad stream? Oh, man.

edit: seems like production issues. Entirely forgivable, so ignore my complaint.
 
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