Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Rizen]

.. Let's be honest, Castle Siege wasn't banned because it had any serious competitive exploits. It got banned because people didn't want to learn how to play on a stage with a slope.

I don't neccessarily agree with those stage bans, but we are past the point where stages are only banned purely by neccessity.

CS was one of a few stages that fit into a grey area. It might have been okay to be legal. My understanding of why it was banned was asymmetrical stages are generally frowned upon as it puts one player at a disadvantage at the start. That and circle camping potential.

 

[Slime Master]

I feel like people are deliberately missing the point. There's a lot of arguing in bad faith.

I'm playing Devil's Advocate if anything - I think the majority of the stage bans are absolutely neccessary for the sake of competitive play - but jeeze. Are we really going to pretend hazards off Unovan Pokemon League was banned because of "RNG"?

Perhaps it's an issue of not having an official council to decide this stuff or something, but what this community decides is banworthy or not gets very arbitrary with no clear guidelines. Perhaps this could be seen for the better, since it means there's more flexibility it what's allowed and what's banned. But on the other hand aggressively gestures at Twitter demanding everything gets banned.

I'm not sure if my obviously absurd hypotheticals are some of the bad faith arguments you're mentioning here, but I can see where they would come off that way so let me defend myself for anyone who might think that.

I didn't mean to imply anyone here thought multiple rulesets was a good idea; my hope was that people would notice how absurd that is, then reflect on why it's absurd. The essence of my post was this sentence:

In order to convince me we should be banning characters like they're stages you'll have to convince me the fundamental differences between characters in smash and stages in smash are less significant than those between characters in smash and characters in the FGC.

and you can probably ignore everything before that if you want.

I also didn't mean to imply our stagelist is perfect; my post was only really about character bans. For the record, I do think the community is a little too ban-happy with stages, but I have neither the experience nor a well thought out reason for that stance, so I didn't want to chime in on that talk.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Something else that is additionally problematic about Castle Siege was that if one goes offstage on the right side of the stage, then the literal foreground of the stage would block the view of the camera and obscure the stuff that was going offstage, potentially messing up recoveries. This happened all the way back in Brawl and still is the case in Ultimate.

At the very least, Ultimate's stagelist is by far the largest and most flexible of the Smash games, having Battlefield, Small Battlefield, Final Destination, Pokemon Stadium 2, Smashville, Town & City, Hollow Bastion, and Kalos Pokemon League as commonly used stages in tournament rulesets, with Northern Cavern and Yoshi's Story being very occasionally used as well.

From what I feel, there isn't really much of an urge to make drastic stagelist changes as it stands. We could play around with the funny once legal stages like Unova Pokemon League, Castle Siege, etc., but there isn't really much of a point since they have their own issues and we straight up have better options to work with.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I'm playing Devil's Advocate if anything - I think the majority of the stage bans are absolutely neccessary for the sake of competitive play - but jeeze. Are we really going to pretend hazards off Unovan Pokemon League was banned because of "RNG"?

Sometimes stages are banned because they're too similar to other legal stages. Imagine a ruleset with Battlefield, Midgar, Dream Land, and Fountain of Dreams, surely such a ruleset would be imbalanced, even if each individual stage might be fine in isolation. This is not an issue for characters, it's fine to have both Pit and Dark Pit, for example. It probably wouldn't be fine if we played squad strike as the main mode, though.

 

[L9999]

That happened in Smash 4, with two triplats on the list it makes it more likely for ladder combo characters to succeed, and the ladder combo characters also had Town & City to play with and default to Smashville some of them could just do horizontal combos or camp at the platform. Smash 4 truly was a game with 0 stages.

If Smash Ultimate players go to PS2 or Smashville all the time it's more nuanced than people being lazy or against variety.

1. Final Destination goes ASAP because the opponent could be playing Kazuya. Nobody likes giving free wins to Kazuya.

2. Battlefield can also go ASAP but that depends if you know your opponent is playing Mario.

3. Town & City can go because one of the stage cycles is FD so Kazuya players stall it out until they get the good transformation, other characters like to circlecamp there.

So that leaves you with Smashville and Pokemon Stadium 2 as the "true neutrals." Smashville itself tends to get the boot because some projectile characters are very good there, covering the space below and above the platform greatly hinders your opponent's options.

Hollow Bastion is often used in counterpicks because it is cramped, good for reversals and mental pressure, also for similar reasons to Smashville. Leaving Kalos League available tends to be a bad idea because there are too many good circlecampers, or rather you don't want to give Steve or Sonic that stage. Many top players make ledgetrapping their win con so banning Kalos is also an option to not take any chances.

 

[Hippieslayer]

I'm not missing the point. It's clear. I agree that it's arbitrary in the sense that there's no precise reasoning behind the stage list. People want it that way, they don't want to have to deal with learning to play on a lot of stages and they don't like exotic elements like slopes that demand deviation. In that sense it's not arbitrary, it caters to desires.

I just think it's perfectly fine that way. That it has to be that way. Maybe it would be better to have a couple of more stages. It would still be arbitrary. And I don't think so, the game already requires a lot of learning because of the size of its roster and the uniqueness of many of the characters.

 

[NairWizard]

Characters require hundreds of times more design and development investment than stages. No one mains a stage.

Pretending that the difference in investment and appreciation isn't there is just being disingenuous.

 

[Frihetsanka]

That happened in Smash 4, with two triplats on the list it makes it more likely for ladder combo characters to succeed, and the ladder combo characters also had Town & City to play with and default to Smashville some of them could just do horizontal combos or camp at the platform. Smash 4 truly was a game with 0 stages.

If Smash Ultimate players go to PS2 or Smashville all the time it's more nuanced than people being lazy or against variety.

1. Final Destination goes ASAP because the opponent could be playing Kazuya. Nobody likes giving free wins to Kazuya.

2. Battlefield can also go ASAP but that depends if you know your opponent is playing Mario.

3. Town & City can go because one of the stage cycles is FD so Kazuya players stall it out until they get the good transformation, other characters like to circlecamp there.

So that leaves you with Smashville and Pokemon Stadium 2 as the "true neutrals." Smashville itself tends to get the boot because some projectile characters are very good there, covering the space below and above the platform greatly hinders your opponent's options.

Hollow Bastion is often used in counterpicks because it is cramped, good for reversals and mental pressure, also for similar reasons to Smashville. Leaving Kalos League available tends to be a bad idea because there are too many good circlecampers, or rather you don't want to give Steve or Sonic that stage. Many top players make ledgetrapping their win con so banning Kalos is also an option to not take any chances.

My response to this post: Most of these issues come down to running stage before character, if you run character before stage (like most of Europe does) then you can ban based on what your opponent plays, not on the hypothetical possibility that your opponent may have a pocket Kazuya or a pocket Mario/Mii Brawler.

 

[L9999]

My response to this post: Most of these issues come down to running stage before character, if you run character before stage (like most of Europe does) then you can ban based on what your opponent plays, not on the hypothetical possibility that your opponent may have a pocket Kazuya or a pocket Mario/Mii Brawler.

It is quite silly you have to see the future or do a background check just to not get an unfavorable game 1. You would think that the ruleset would be changed by now since so many people hate Kazuya, Steve, and Sonic's guts, not to mention Min Min and other matchup checks who take advantage of the ruleset.

 

[Frihetsanka]

It is quite silly you have to see the future or do a background check just to not get an unfavorable game 1. You would think that the ruleset would be changed by now since so many people hate Kazuya, Steve, and Sonic's guts, not to mention Min Min and other matchup checks who take advantage of the ruleset.

The reason most of NA runs stage before character is because they want to give people who play multiple character even more of an advantage, even though playing multiple characters already gives you an advantage if you can deal with the increased burden of practicing two or more characters.

It would nerf players like ProtoBanham and acola, who would no longer be able to surprise switch to really favorable stages (ProtoBanham does it fairly often since Min Min and Lucina tend to like different stages, acola mostly does it with Kazuya on FD, such as his set versus Myran). Still, the downsides of stage before character are too signficant to ignore, most of Europe seems happy with character before stage so I'm not sure why NA seems so reluctant to adapt character before stages.

 

[NairWizard]

I really don't understand the hate against Kazuya. I'm watching Miya doing like 100%+ per neutral win against Riddles.

So many good characters are doing those kinds of insane numbers. 0 to deaths are the name of the game. Kazuya is just... any other character with a strong advantage state, except less likely to be reversaled, and more likely to get 0 to deathed than most.

He's so... tame. Who cares about Kazuya?

 

[Aligo]

I really don't understand the hate against Kazuya. I'm watching Miya doing like 100%+ per neutral win against Riddles.

So many good characters are doing those kinds of insane numbers. 0 to deaths are the name of the game. Kazuya is just... any other character with a strong advantage state, except less likely to be reversaled, and more likely to get 0 to deathed than most.

He's so... tame. Who cares about Kazuya?

I believe that kaz has the same problem as ice climbers did in the older games, where one or two neutral interactions can take a stock off of safe options. Unlike the climbers, kaz also has a much better weight, a unusually good recovery for a fgc character and comback mechanics.

Obviously he has some substantial downsides, such as poor movement and a very one note gameplan. Many relevant matchups are pretty back for him. However kaz counterplay is pretty similar to mac counterplay in which it heavily encourages passive play.

So in short, people don't like kaz because he has only one effective style of play that is probably too good and he requires the other player to channel their inner sonic in order to win. He is not broken or banworthy like Steve is, but his design is pretty bad in its current iteration. Think of him as campy Samus but for comp players. All he needs is like slight frame data changes to one move to fix the issue people have.

At the very least, kaz is really fun in casual play, where he acts as a ganondorf who exchanges range for recovery. The same cannot be said for Steve or sonic. The sound design, particle effects, and lack of hitstop also differentiates him from his punchy fighting game man brethren.

 

[Frihetsanka]

He is not broken or banworthy like Steve is[...]

I would say he's about as broken and banworthy as Steve is (that is, not really banworthy and almost certainly not gamebreaking).

I think the top six (in some order: Steve, Aegis, Joker, Sonic, Kazuya, ROB) all should've gotten a few more nerfs, and probably would've if we were still getting patches. We're not, so we're going to have to deal with them being overtuned, or ban them. Keep in mind that in Smash 4, Brawl, Melee, and 64 we had to deal with characters that were significantly more overtuned than these characters. I believe that much of the hate Steve and Kazuya get is because they're unconventional and annoying, not because they're incredibly overpowered. We had to deal with Smash 4 Sheik, Smash 4 Diddy Kong, Smash 4 Cloud, yet (almost) no one pushed for a ban for those characters in singles (Cloud should've been banned in doubles though, probably the most broken doubles character of all Smash, and it was showing in results).

Is Steve broken right now? No, no way. Is Steve going to be broken, hypothetically, if Steve players learn all of his tech (not counting PLMG which likely isn't much of an issue)? Hypothetically? Perhaps. Do we ban characters because they're hypothetically broken, with little to no evidence showing that they are in practice? Would that be a good practice? I doubt it.

Steve may be unconventional. Steve may be annoying. Steve may look ugly. But is he currently banworthy? Does he break the game? Or is he yet another overpowered character? He's likely #1 in the game, but the gap between #1 and #2 likely isn't as significant as people think (and probably significantly less than the gap between Bayonetta and the other top tiers in Smash 4). In Smash 4, we saw several top players dropping their main in order to pick up Bayonetta. In Brawl, Meta Knight was by far the most popular character played by top players. Melee Fox is still a staple top tier. Steve? Steve is mainly played by teenagers and people in their young 20s, at least at top level. You don't really see many top players dropping their mains in order to pick up Steve. But if he's really as strong as Smash 4 Bayonetta, why wouldn't they? I think the answer is that he's just not as good as Smash 4 Bayonetta, and you'd have to invest quite a bit of time to get good with Steve (which players like Onin, acola, Jake, yonni, DDee etc have done).

In summary, based on Steve's current results and what we currently see Steve players do, Steve is not banworthy and not particularly close to being banworthy. Hypothetically, he could be in the future. Keep in mind that many Smash players used to (and some still do) put Shulk in top 5 because of potential. I don't think it's a good idea to ban Steve because he's potentially broken. He's overpowered, sure, but he's currently not doing well enough to warrant the label "broken".

That being said, if we do ban Steve right now, that opens up the possibility for more bans, since that means we're willing to ban characters that are hypothetically broken. Sonic, a character many Sonic mains claim has 0 losing matchups and not many even matchups and could potentially be #1 in the game, and Kazuya, a character that could, when played optimally, potentially be #1 in the game, could also be on the chopping block. If the argument instead is that Steve "isn't playing Smash" or "is so annoying", then Min Min could also be added to the list, presumably. I think it would probably be better if we only banned Steve if he turns out to actually be broken, not based on a hypothetical future but rather the actual present.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Maesuma TOP 12 (512 Entrants)

1st: acola
2nd: Miya
3rd: Gackt
4th: Riddles
5th: Neo
5th: Tea
7th: Yoshidora
7th: Hero

Spoiler: Top 24

9th: KEN
9th: Toriguri
9th: Shuton
9th: Rarukun

13th: Scend
13th: Jogibu
13th: Oi, George
13th: Asimo

17th: Lima
17th: Kameme
17th: Repo
17th: Ryuoh
17th: Eim
17th: Abadango
17th: Umeki
17th: Nao

Spoiler: Top 48

25th: showers
25th: Akakikusu
25th: Sigma
25th: Roki Tendonman
25th: Ron
25th: Atelier
25th: Omuatsu
25th: Doramigi

33rd: Shogun
33rd: Dabuz
33rd: Kie
33rd: Yaura
33rd: Karaage
33rd: Mr. R
33rd: M0tsunabE
33rd: DIO
33rd: Cosmos
33rd: Snow
33rd: Niyae
33rd: syumai
33rd: Tsubaki
33rd: Paseriman
33rd: Kaninabe
33rd: Noi

Other notable non-Japanese players that placed at 49th-65th: Jahzz0 (49th), Hungrybox (49th), MuteAce (65th)

acola clean swept through this tournament, only dropping 3 games total throughout the bracket and to 3 different players. Riddles finally got his revenge on Tea for the Kazuya mirror beatdown earlier last year. The Cinderella story run is definitely Toriguri, with the highest placement of Banjo & Kazooie in a major tournament since Tweek's early attempts to make him work around their release.

This tournament, despite being a supermajor, is still only a prelude to something even bigger in the near future....

 

[Frihetsanka]

Neo making #5 is really noteworthy, this is probably Corrin's most noteworthy non-MkLeo placement ever in Ultimate? With this run, Neo seems like a really strong candidate for #1 Corrin. I wonder how SHADIC will fare in the future?

 

[True Blue Warrior]

What’s the current situation on Steve and PLMG?

 

[MrGameguycolor]

What’s the current situation on Steve and PLMG?

It's a South Park situation, people are divided on not picking a side.

"Yeah X is true, but so is Y "

 

[Frihetsanka]

What’s the current situation on Steve and PLMG?

Right now, it seems that PMLG isn't an issue. Some people still want Steve banned though, claiming it was never about PMLG in the first place and that it was just a scapegoat so they could get the ball rolling. Europe and Japan probably won't ban Steve. Australia has banned Steve and some parts of the US and some other regions, although most majors are probably not going to ban Steve unless PMLG turns out to actually be strong.

Edit: New video:

 

[Cheryl~]

This has been a very good week for my main, Min Min. All three of the highest placing Min Mins at Maesuma (Oi, George, Doramigi, and Omuatsu) made top 32 at a supermajor and they all made good upsets as well! George beat Ron and Eim, Doramigi had beaten Cosmos and Mr. R earlier in the week and ended up getting a Dabuz win at Maesuma as well, and Omuatsu had a quieter run but still nabbed another Cosmos win to their belt (Cosmos has fought like, 5 Min Min sets during his stay in Japan and lost all of them, poor guy). In addition to that, hidden boss Xerzal took home Code Crimson 2, a C tier regional that was exceptionally stacked for a C tier.

Code Crimson 2 results:
1st: Xerzal
2nd: omega
3rd: Goblin
4th: Anathema
5th: Dany
5th: ChunkyKong
7th: Peabnut
7th: Atomic

This is pretty great since despite always being high in the overall results list, Min Mins don't really win regional-level events that often, and her placements at majors tend to be as inconsistent as the character itself. Hopefully this winning trend continues into next week with Kagaribi!

 

[Frihetsanka]

I think Min Min is really strong (top tier), but also really weird to play and there's also a lot of stigma against her, so I'm not too surprised that she isn't very common.

 

[Sucumbio]

Anyone else keeping up with the Wadi situation?

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Right now, it seems that PMLG isn't an issue. Some people still want Steve banned though, claiming it was never about PMLG in the first place and that it was just a scapegoat so they could get the ball rolling. Europe and Japan probably won't ban Steve. Australia has banned Steve and some parts of the US and some other regions, although most majors are probably not going to ban Steve unless PMLG turns out to actually be strong.

Edit: New video:

That’s great to know. That means there is little reason for Steve to be kept banned.

I think Min Min is really strong (top tier), but also really weird to play and there's also a lot of stigma against her, so I'm not too surprised that she isn't very common.

A good amount of people think she has a bad gameplay design.

Anyone else keeping up with the Wadi situation?

What happened?

 

[Sucumbio]

What happened?

wadi. TW: s***ide mention, graphic

Read: https://t.co/TFC6vBIFrf

— Genius Smell (@CluefulClicker) April 29, 2023

sad anime face

 

[Frihetsanka]

One of the best videos I've seen on the subject (20 minutes long).

 

[Rizen]

I've watched several tournaments with Riddles lately and the more I see, the more I think Kazuya should not be banned. There have been many instances where Riddles lost with Kazuya and was forced into Terry, who he won with. VS Sonix's Sonic, Bassmage's Jiggz, Tilde's Falco and others. There are a lot of MUs where Terry does better than Kazuya and this supports my hot take that Terry is just as good as Kazuya, although different.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I've watched several tournaments with Riddles lately and the more I see, the more I think Kazuya should not be banned. There have been many instances where Riddles lost with Kazuya and was forced into Terry, who he won with. VS Sonix's Sonic, Bassmage's Jiggz, Tilde's Falco and others. There are a lot of MUs where Terry does better than Kazuya and this supports my hot take that Terry is just as good as Kazuya, although different.

Wait

Are you truly under the impression that people want Kazuya banned because he is a strong top tier?

You are too smart and have been around too long to be THIS naive.

The smash community wants him banned because he forces them to play optimally i.e get a lead and disengage. Kazuya breaks their precious illusion of wanting to rushdown like rabid dogs.

 

[Rizen]

Wait

Are you truly under the impression that people want Kazuya banned because he is a strong top tier?

You are too smart and have been around too long to be THIS naive.

The smash community wants him banned because he forces them to play optimally i.e get a lead and disengage. Kazuya breaks their precious illusion of wanting to rushdown like rabid dogs.

I never said that. I said people want to ban him because he's annoying to fight.

I'm definitely against banning Kazuya. The only justification I've seen is that he's annoying to fight

 

[blackghost]

I never said that. I said people want to ban him because he's annoying to fight.

you're at step one. now to get you to step two and three.

then ask yourself why is he annoying or why do they say he's annoying.

then ask yourself if they are telling themselves and the community the truth.

conclusion they dont like that he majkes the game exactly as Emblem Lord says.

ban them or dont ban them i dont care the smash scene does this by pattern now. happened three games i a row. riddles and other fgc smash payers will likely leave for sf6 and tekken 8 i know i would. The characters I pour hours into wont get banned because the community is soft.
i you play pyra mythra or steve you better be rooting for them to not ban kazuya because your character will be next.

 

[NairWizard]

Looking at the Japanese events, it's very clear that Japan is far ahead of all other regions competitively.

But Japan's relative strength is unsurprising. In a game with a roster so big, the best way to be consistent is to... just play against every character. Japan's online ladder system allows its top players to get that practice.

 

[The_Bookworm]

We already got some pretty big upsets at Kagaribi and it hasn't been top 1024 yet. Miya, Tea, and MuteAce have all fallen to the loser's bracket already. There are a few other notable ones, but those are the big three so far.

Not even the top Japanese players are immune to getting upset at their home turf.

Unfortunately for me, the event only seems to continue at 11:00 pm EST, aka absurdly late for me, so I am going to be missing out on pretty much everything that happens there live.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I think it's safe to say that Japan is the strongest region in the world.

 

[The_Bookworm]

More big upsets:
Shuton 0-3 Yokohama
Yokohama 2-3 Paseriman
Omuatsu 3-1 takera
Riddles 2-3 DIO
Kameme 2-3 Masha
Dabuz 2-3 Taikei
Taikei 3-1 Atelier
Sparg0 0-3 Yaura
Gackt 1-3 YOC
Asimo 0-3 Umeki
Warasen 3-1 Rizeasu
Nao 1-3 Huto
Suno 3-0 Fatality
Kinaji 3-0 MuteAce (out at 97th)
Ly 1-3 Hurt (out at 65th)
Nao 1-3 Lea (out at 65th)
Rizeasu 1-3 Senra (out at 65th)
Metara 3-1 Akakikusu (out at 65th)

Forgot to mention earlier, but Cosmos is hanging in loser's bracket after losing to Ly's Corrin yesterday (he will forever he cursed to lose to his SSB4 main).

And there will be likely more upsets to come...



Edit:
Annnnnnnnnnnd here is top 8!

Winner's
acola vs Yoshidora
HERO vs Zackray

Loser's
Dabuz vs Riddles
Sparg0 vs Miya

That's right, we have a guaranteed or in winner's finals of the biggest tournament of the season. Not as crazy as or in winner's finals of a major tourney, but still very cool!

Also got a Team Liquid team kill immediately at the start so look out for that.

 

[NotLiquid]

Spargo played some of the best Ultimate I have ever seen.

I've never seen acola forced into such desperation counterplay. Aegis? For real?

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Results for Kagaribi 10. Sparg0 might've possibly made a top 3 losers run alongside Leo's Frostbite 2020 and EVO 2019 runs, beating acola twice, Zackray, Dabuz, Yoshidora, Miya, KEN, Asimo, Ike, YOC and Yamanaction.

1. Sparg0
2. acola
3. Zackray
4. Dabuz
5. Hero
5. Yoshidora
7. Riddles
7. Miya
9. Masha
9. Paseriman
9. Zomba
9. KEN
13. Omuatsu
13. Hurt
13. Yaura
13. Asimo
17. Lima
17. Cosmos
17. DIO
17. Taikei
17. Tea
17. Umeki
17. Ike
17. Noi
25. Shuton
25. chicken
25. HIKARU
25. takera
25. Midorun
25. Gackt
25. YOC
25. Jagaimo

 

[toonito]

i wonder if cloud is a losing matchup for steve and if we'll see more people potentially trying a pocket cloud for acola

 

[silenthunder]

Y'all are sleeping on Snake. Usually when a character does well it's the same person using him that always does, but every once and a while Snake will place high in a big tourney and it's a different person each time.

 

[NairWizard]

Team NA did really well at the actual P-tier supermajor, despite some overall middling results until now. Lima 17th, Riddles 7th, Dabuz 4th, and sparg0 1st is great results, especially since they were all eliminated by NA players. In fact, though it was a Japanese supermajor, the results were as you might expect here in NA.

Claims that the top cut of NA couldn't top Japanese tournaments are really overstated.

Japan is by far the strongest region, but top players are top players for a reason and will do well in any environment.

The bigger the tournament, the better they will do, because the key skills involved in big-tournament competition are stamina management, strategic refresh rate, and mental fortitude. Players like sparg0 and Dabuz excel at all of those.

Also shoutouts to zackray. He has such a heart-warming smile and his attitude is great.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Y'all are sleeping on Snake. Usually when a character does well it's the same person using him that always does, but every once and a while Snake will place high in a big tourney and it's a different person each time.

I don't think anyone sleeps on Snake. He's getting considered to be top 10, and I think AK's deserved positivity on the character and wins shows that. This season may be the best Snake has ever looked since Pound 2019. Plus as you mentioned, his representation (like ROB) is really good, it's not just AK doing very well.

 

[Frihetsanka]

i wonder if cloud is a losing matchup for steve and if we'll see more people potentially trying a pocket cloud for acola

It is most likely Steve's worst matchup, yeah. I think many people are downplaying acola's skill and attributing his success to Steve, when other Steve players aren't nearly as good or consistent and Japan is somewhat lacking in notable Steve players aside from acola.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Japans online ladder is surely great, but it's helped by the japanese being able to play against each other with relatively small amounts of lag.

Edit: The fact that they had Acola crying in defeat while being comforted by one the japanese commentators perfectly placed in the background during Sparg0s post victory interview was kind of hilarious but also pretty mean : (