Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Frihetsanka]

With all the stigma around the tech being overpowered, what's most likely is that Steve doesn't get banned and no top Steve (Onin, Acola) uses the tech, so it never matters in practice. It might matter in some early-bracket matches but will be brushed aside as not applicable at top level.

Keep in mind that rulesets shouldn't only apply to top level players but to high level and mid level players as well. I also don't know if it's great if some techs are legal but held back by stigma. Although I suppose going for timeouts is a bit like that (legal, but most players don't actively go for it due to stigma).

 

[NairWizard]

I'm only talking about what's likely to happen, not what should happen.

The highest ones might not be the issue. The lower and mid ones may not show such self control and who wants to be hit by a cheap glitch if you already think your opponent is carried?

Question for you in particular. Would you still be pro-ban if it were a character you liked such as Aegis with the same glitch?

 

[Arthur97]

I'm only talking about what's likely to happen, not what should happen.



Question for you in particular. Would you still be pro-ban if it were a character you liked such as Aegis with the same glitch?

Heh, shoulda asked me before XC3 happened. But, I'm not sure. I'm not going to say I'm 100% sure I would be, but at this point it's a pretty ludicrous thing to just cancel an important mechanic, but whether I'm for it or against it doesn't really impact what I've said on the matter much if at all (which not sure if I ever said I actually was for or against, moreso pointing out stuff like other regions shouldn't have to conform to what Japan wants). Even if you're just talking what you think would happen...why would it? There are a lot more lower end players to get mad about it and leave, and without them, you don't have much of a scene.

However, yes, if there was ever a reason to ban a fighter, a glitch that is hard to detect and literally cancels hitstun might be it.

 

[StrangeKitten]

I'm aware I wasn't the one who was asked, but I'd like to chime in with... yes. If Incineroar had this tech, I would be calling for an Incineroar ban. I think it's not just the tech, but also, the reward the character can get out of it. To which I think Incineroar would be rewarded too much with the tech. Some characters though, such as Ganondorf, Piranha Plant, or Little Mac, I'd be a lot less likely to call for a ban. Keeping in mind that the tech can only be done in the air and they're some of the weakest members of the cast, I would be given more pause as to whether the tech would make them banworthy.

Of course, the tech is still pretty overpowered on its own. But I do think it's not only the tech, but the sheer amount of reward Steve gets from it, that makes him banworthy. If he just got a little nair here, little fair there, it might be very dumb but not banworthy. But when he can get a combo string that ends in a stock loss, a simple use of Minecart if the opponent is already at kill % for that, and moving backwards and deciding to reset neutral also benefits him thanks to his strong camping tools... He's probably the character that gets the most out of the tech. He was already kinda bordering on too good, and this seals the deal.

 

[NotLiquid]

Scheduled weekend Smash comedy

Son wtf is this top 8 pic.twitter.com/CxG0AeHAkH

— EMP Tilde (@Tilde_Fox) March 2, 2023

 

[StoicPhantom]

I can understand acola's position because people are getting too hung up on being able to ignore hitstun, which isn't exactly rare in Ultimate, and not questioning whether Steve gets more reward than alternative options. All the clips I've seen Steve can achieve roughly the same effect with an airdodge without needing to take damage. I was initially on board with a ban on the tech because people were making it seem like Steve could do this against any move at any time, but now that I've researched the particulars of the tech, things seem much more murky.

Steve has access to a plethora of traps and reversals as it is, so it's hard to actually find a situation where deliberately taking damage is the more rewarding path. Sure he can get 30 after taking 15 in a lot of these clips, but I've seen crazier reversals. That doesn't mean that something ridiculous can't be discovered, but that's why we should take a wait and see approach and ban it if it actually becomes a problem and not just on hypothetical what-ifs from people who don't play the character.

If given the choice between putting in time to learn 4 new hard and intricate matchups or just... playing a different game, many people will choose to play a different game, and you absolutely can't blame them for that.

I don't think it is a case of blame or lack of empathy so much as it just seems like common sense to stop playing a game you don't really like or lack motivation to play. Throughout modern fighting game discussion, whether it be about banning characters or simplifying game mechanics, there's this incredibly bizarre ignorance of the massive elephant in the room: you can't take the competition out of competition and still have it be competition. Even if you simplify everything into the most brainless button masher, you will still have to contend with the fact that some players will put more time and investment in that brainless button masher than other players and they will dominate as a result. A fundamental component in competition is needing enormous amounts of investment relative to the level you are playing at.

And therein lies the problem. People seem to frequently conflate low-level competitive players with casual players when they're two different entities. Just because someone plays at a low level doesn't mean that they aren't subject to the same expectations, principles, and rules that higher level players are. It is fine to say that you don't want to be the best or that you just want to dabble in competition without putting too much effort into it, but you then must accept that there will always be certain ceilings you will encounter with respect to other players and characters. Being a high level player comes with undertaking the investment to overcome those ceilings and if someone is deliberately avoiding that they are always going to be low level and lose to those playstyles or characters.


And this is exactly why we need to be coherent when arguing for a Steve ban. People led off with an appeal toward competitive integrity and now we're on reducing competition at lower levels. Either a character doesn't provide for enough competition or they're too competitive. You can't have both. Similarly, people can't say that we shouldn't compare the current context of character bans to previous contexts in other games and then turn around and say that we have to ban Steve because MetaKnight and Bayonetta allegedly ruined their own meta.

And of course, we should decide whether the ban comes from the tech implications or because he's too strong. Of which neither has real evidence in favor of a ban. Steve is at best a regional threat in Japan and struggles on the world stage and I already talked about the issues with the lack of information on the tech. But trying to juggle multiple contradictory arguments makes ban proponents incoherent and thus not convincing.

As far as I know there's only been two reasons why characters were banned. The first is that they glitched out and/or crashed the game and made it literally unplayable while the second was that they had something about them that was mathematically impossible to counter and led to a large enough disruption that all workarounds failed or caused more problems.

For example, Feral Chaos in Dissidia Duodecim had a multihit move called Via Dolorosa that was unblockable and caused a frame trap on dodge because the second hit makes contact during the dodge cooldown. That meant that anyone could pick a stage small enough to prevent opponents from giving it a wide enough berth and spam this move until they win. The only solution to this would be to de facto ban all small stages, thus impacting strategy around stage selection, or ban the move. It's been a long time since I had anything to do with the game, but IIRC banning the move also had implications on Feral Chaos in terms of selecting what moves or accessories he could take into battle and his viability.

So because the move itself is mathematically impossible to counter at closer distances and trying to work around the move caused further issues, the decision was ultimately made to ban the character. There was controversy around the decision, and I might be misremembering details, but hopefully people reading this get an idea of why we might ban a character. It's not about how many people play the character or about how strong the character is relative to the rest of the cast, it's about the character having aspects about them that interfere with the competitive process itself. Nothing about Steve or Kazuya is even remotely on the level of the headache Feral Chaos caused in terms of balancing.


So people ultimately need to pick one argument and stick with it. The tech might be a valid point if it turns out to be anything more than a nothing burger, but I remain unconvinced on the contradictory competition arguments. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter what level you are, competition requires enormous investment. Steve might take more time to learn how to fight than some other characters, but that doesn't mean other top tiers aren't exhausting to fight thanks to the extreme execution requirements needed to fight them, and I didn't hear Steve players complaining about the investment needed to play the character at a high level even though he clearly requires more investment to play than to fight.

Don’t bite the hand that feeds you.

I do want to end on a somewhat different but still related topic. A good deal of what drives the ban Steve argument is from influencers in the for-profit side of Smash and their general reasoning seems to be that Steve negatively impacts attendance rates. At first glance, this wouldn't seem like a big deal as it just means weeding out those who didn't really care all that much about the game, but when you consider that attendance rates directly affect the profits of professional players, tournament organizers, coaches, and others from that sphere, everything makes sense.

The hand that feeds the for-profit side of Smash are the players not the other way around. It's the players and the audience attendees who are probably also players that feed everybody from TOs to pros. The players have been organizing and hosting tournaments long before any of these corporations got into the scene and it's a shame that they've been successfully gaslit into thinking they need these parasites. And I think this will become more apparent as the economy continues to decline and more and more of these corporate parasites continue to drop while the players still continue playing the game.

These people trying to tie Steve into the decline of a game that is five years old and in increasingly economic times are completely dishonest. Every player I know that quit Ultimate competitively did so because they hate the design of the game and got massively burnt out long before Steve arrived on the scene. Correlation does not equal causation and there's no objective evidence pointing to a single character causing a decline of interest in Ultimate.

Actually, I would say that it is very conspicuous that Japan is not in favor of a ban so far and Japan doesn't play for money. When you aren't constantly pressed to make the line go up I guess it is much easier to sit back and lab MUs. Maybe the reason there's so much ban talk in the Smash community over everything from characters to controllers is because professional players are so deathly afraid of their results dropping and not being in the money anymore? Almost like profit runs directly counter to competition and less competition = more profit? Sound familiar?


The whole Steve hysteria sounds very much like an NA thing rather an existential threat to the entire community. It's the classic politician move of making a lot of noise about a vaguely defined threat with no empirical evidence and then trying push through a decision before any real discussion can happen on it. And because these people wield enormous influence across the NA scene, this has become the de facto opinion upon much of the scene. But that influence doesn't extend to Japan and that's where we're seeing friction.

And that leads me to question whether fracturing and dividing the global community over a single character is going to increase participation and attendance. Banning possibly the single most popular character in Smash history seems like one of those obviously bad ideas, but doing so when other regions are not on board is pretty much guaranteeing that participation will decrease dramatically. There's a lot of complaining that there is too many Steves at lower levels, but at the same time complaining that he's dropping attendance and that's bad for business. What happens to the line if all those Steves quit the game when you ban their character?

To me this seems like delusional cope from the increasing job insecurity from the for-profit sector in Smash and not actually rational or productive. But Steve is not responsible for the global recession and banning him isn't going to stop the collapse of the for-profit sector. Banning isn't really going to solve anything at all as there isn't actually anything wrong in the first place. Unique characters that play differently from the norm are all over fighting games and there isn't that many Steves winning majors outside Japan.

Unless something ridiculous is discovered with that new tech I'm going to have to agree with Japan on this one. I haven't seen any good argument for a global ban so far. There are locals here and there that have a lot of Steves, but I'm not sure what doing something like banning Steve in Alabama because a local in Mexico really, really, really likes Steve is supposed to do.

 

[Aligo]

I'm only talking about what's likely to happen, not what should happen.



Question for you in particular. Would you still be pro-ban if it were a character you liked such as Aegis with the same glitch?

Would it be on Pyra, Mythra or both? How would it be triggered? Probably depends on that, but if it was as strong as Steves, then yeah. They maybe my favourite character but it would be no use ruining everyone else's time for that.

 

[NairWizard]

I don't think it is a case of blame or lack of empathy so much as it just seems like common sense to stop playing a game you don't really like or lack motivation to play. Throughout modern fighting game discussion, whether it be about banning characters or simplifying game mechanics, there's this incredibly bizarre ignorance of the massive elephant in the room: you can't take the competition out of competition and still have it be competition.
...
At the end of the day, it doesn't matter what level you are, competition requires enormous investment.

In my post you quoted, I wasn't trying to outline an argument to ban Steve -- only that those of us who disagree with a Steve ban should empathize with those who want to ban Steve, even if we don't think there's merit to it (and here, for once, I'm of the same opinion as you: there is no reason to ban Steve right now).

Competition does require investment, but there are limits and thresholds to how much investment is "comfortable" at different levels, and it's important to appreciate this nuance.

I was quite strong toward the end of smash 4; if I had time and traveled, I'm confident that I could have been PGR top 100, and possibly even better than that! I was content to privately level up given what time I had. But, I quit competing because I wasn't willing to learn the SDI counterplay to Bayonetta. It was too draining and beyond the threshold gating joy in competition for me. Steve comes nowhere near S4 Bayonetta counterplay requirements, yet from past experience I understand that some people are feeling like their limits are going to be exceeded.

None of this is to say that Steve should be banned to appease lower-level or mid-level or even top-level competitors, but it's important to understand the feelings involved, even if we deem them irrational.

There is something else going on with Steve that I think we should understand as well -- something that bothers me more than any arguments about competition.

Like Bayonetta, Steve dropped as DLC and was suddenly extremely strong with lots of previously unknown players getting great results with him. But unlike Bayonetta, Steve "doesn't belong." He's "different." He creates parts of the stage, something which no other character can do; his movement is strange; his counterplay is strange. He doesn't even speak!

His otherness feels a lot like the Miis, whom many players refuse to place in their matchup charts or tier lists even now, despite Miis having results. Because of this quality, Steve is easy to dislike -- an easy target. I think many people are targeting him precisely for this reason, and that bothers me.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Rip.

Good effort on Asimo's part.

 

[NairWizard]

People are actually out here cheering for a Sonic timeout (because KEN is fighting acola). That's how much people dislike Steve. Crazy.

 

[Arthur97]

I can agree they are strange, but "other?" Mr. Game & Watch is very weird, but not treated as an other. Made to look 2D, animations are designed to look frame by frame. They also aren't the only ones that don't speak. At that point it seems like you might be looking for something to complain about. The block laying and lack of certain animations make them weird, yes, but let's not go too far.

 

[Linkmain-maybe]

I can agree they are strange, but "other?" Mr. Game & Watch is very weird, but not treated as an other. Made to look 2D, animations are designed to look frame by frame. They also aren't the only ones that don't speak. At that point it seems like you might be looking for something to complain about. The block laying and lack of certain animations make them weird, yes, but let's not go too far.

I personally don’t mind no voices and 2D appearances, but the choppy animations can actually make it difficult to understand their end lag and parry timings. For example, when Steve does a forward smash, you can generally tell when he will be actionable again through his animation (When Steve has his full body tilted, his legs stop moving, and he starts turning back into a neutral position). Game and Watch doesn’t have such recovery animations, or if he does they are very difficult to tell, so it can be quite ambiguous as to when he is actionable without intricate understanding of his frame data.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Results for Maesuma TOP 11

1. Miya
2. KEN
3. acola
4. Asimo
5. Karaage
5. Jogibu
7. Kaninabe
7. Yaura
9. Shuton
9. Rizeasu
9. Neo
9. Yn
13. Lv. 1
13. Yoshidora
13. Oi, George
13. Kome
17. Daikon
17. Tea
17. Rarikkusu
17. Hero
17. Gackt
17. Doramigi
17. Paseriman
17. Ron

 

[Sucumbio]

Did acola use the new tech?

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Did acola use the new tech?

No.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Double in top 8 is very impressive. People usually don't associate Japan as a place for Falcon results in any Smash game, but Japanese Falcon players, whenever they do show up, has always demonstrated great consistency with the character.

Also between Yn here and ven's recent performance, the character seems to finally see some signs of life after being essentially a dead character for the entirety of 2022.

 

[Hippieslayer]

I can agree they are strange, but "other?" Mr. Game & Watch is very weird, but not treated as an other. Made to look 2D, animations are designed to look frame by frame. They also aren't the only ones that don't speak. At that point it seems like you might be looking for something to complain about. The block laying and lack of certain animations make them weird, yes, but let's not go too far.

With a character like GnW all you have to do is try it out yourself for a little bit and you will understand the frame data a lot better. If you're having trouble understanding the frame data of any character this is a good idea imo.

 

[blackghost]

I think "Ban Steve" being brought up again is mostly just a bandwagon after the broken tech showcase because there was people who wanted him banned for silly reasons all the way since July. I was mostly agreeing with the tech being dumb, but the Japanese community being so against the ban is changing my mind on it being banworthy.

not just japan I think for whatever reason its mainly NA players that want him gone and have been willing to do or latch on to anything to get steve gone. Any character that you cannot blunt force your way through always seems to make NA players react like this.

Steve ban isnt gonna make this scene revitalize and banning steve is just gonna split japan from NA (dont know what europe will o i dobt theyll ban.

The issue is smash doesnt appear to be a game sponsors want to touch whether that is due to players, the awful history with minors and underage drinking at events or, the inability to project a mature business environment in general. Street fighter is giving 1 million to first place in its league. Tekken and MK will repond as well with thier new games. every EVO game has a pot this year even side events.

Characters have been banned in the fgc but mainly due to extreme circumstances. DBFZ banned labcoat but that was because she was making games take too ong due to a ridiculous 21 percent damage debuff she could permanently put on a character.

japan has a much better grasp on techs imo than most of the rest of the scene and what is useful if they dont think its good im inclined to believe them..
if its busted someone go proove it is. acola not using it says a lot to me.

 

[Aligo]

If you are looking for proof of the the tech being game breaking, just look to online, where it has been used to substantial effect. The fact that multihits are rendered unviable changes so many matchups and makes counterplay much harder. It results in a character that can punish being hit with a combo leading to a stock loss - which is part of the reason why 4 bayonetta was so damaging to the meta of smash wii U (pmlg is also less commital than witch time too, and is far from the only exploitable bug in the characters arsenal).

You are less likely to see its abuse at the top level as the tech is either banned or frowned upon, which disincentivses its use as players at that level have a lot of investment and a lot to lose.

There is also the fact that obviously it is not in the interest of a player to get their main banned which more liberal application of the tech early on would result in. Better to wait to the noise to die down then start using it.

As for issues with smash as a competitive scene. I believe the issue is a lack of collective community organisation and standardisation of rules, like that found in the Pokémon singles community where competition has flourished in many formats despite the inherently unbalanced nature of the games and a producer who cares for the competitive scene as little as Nintendo does for smash.

 

[Arthur97]

With a character like GnW all you have to do is try it out yourself for a little bit and you will understand the frame data a lot better. If you're having trouble understanding the frame data of any character this is a good idea imo.

What did you think my point was? I wasn't complaining about Mr. Game & Watch's frame data, just pointing out he is also very weird but no one tries to ban him for being an "other." Whatever that's supposed to mean.

As for acola, of course he wouldn't use it on a major stage like that if he wants to keep his main.

 

[Aligo]

What did you think my point was? I wasn't complaining about Mr. Game & Watch's frame data, just pointing out he is also very weird but no one tries to ban him for being an "other." Whatever that's supposed to mean.

As for acola, of course he wouldn't use it on a major stage like that if he wants to keep his main.

I think people were annoyed, but shifts in the meta made gnw less relevant (big swords are a good counter). gnw is also a lot lighter than Steve and has a worse recovery overall.

 

[Arthur97]

I think people were annoyed, but shifts in the meta made gnw less relevant (big swords are a good counter). gnw is also a lot lighter than Steve and has a worse recovery overall.

Yes, but the point is, if being weird was enough to have a lot of people wanting to ban a fighter (or even heavily contribute), why not him? No, this is more about gameplay.

 

[StrangeKitten]

No one I've seen calling for a Steve ban was doing so solely because he's "weird". His odd animation style may make it hard to read some situations here and there, but I never got the the sense that that was the main reason why people wanted him banned. It was moreso how strong he is - he immediately forces approaches due to mining, but can set up a couple blocks in like, a second. So, his opponent is immediately on the backfoot, and I can't think of another character that starts the game with such a severe advantage. This alone wouldn't be too strong... but then, Steve has a super-quick up tilt and super-quick jab, all of which lead to combos that do boatloads of damage. And then, he also has some of the best kill power. Compare to the rest of the cast, where they typically only have a lot of combos or only have strong kill power. Rarely both, and when they do have both, they tend to have far more glaring weaknesses (such as say, the FGC characters, who are a little slow. must fight up close to get their strong combos, have slightly exploitable recoveries, and you have to get the inputs right to do the strong versions of their moves). Meanwhile, Steve also has a super-good recovery, is the only character who can effectively plank, and can live to ridiculous percents because he can tech off of his blocks (not to mention, blocks serving as a huge help in escaping disadvantage). Even with all these positives, I was against a ban. But it's not difficult to see why many took issue with his kit's design and function.

Keyword there being, was against a ban. I had faith that counterplay would develop, and that it was taking a long time because Steve is complex and unlike any other character in the game. And I was right. We were slowly but surely seeing players figure out how to handle the matchup. But, as I've stated, I've changed my opinion to pro-ban in light of the discovery of the PMLG tech. There are only a handful of characters I might not consider overpowered if they had the tech. Steve is obviously not among them, and should not be able to punish opponents for winning neutral. I'd much, much rather ban the tech itself, but the problem with doing that, is it's too subtle to be able to easily tell whether the tech has been performed. Leaving it unbanned would mean that Steve's opponent is forced to play around the tech, never feeling sure that their opponent won't do it. And then, if they think the Steve player did do it, they'd have to remember to save the replay (easy to forget) and take up TOs valuable time reviewing the footage. And then, what should the penalties be? Should the Steve player lose a stock for performing the tech? Should they lose a game? What if they perform the tech by accident? Should they be penalized for a genuine mistake? Would every Steve player try to claim they did it by mistake, even if some of them didn't? What about Steve's opponent? Do we penalize them for thinking the tech was used, when it wasn't? Since Steve is a widely-disliked character, would a good chunk of Steve's opponents try to call Steve players out on using the tech, even when they're fairly certain the tech wasn't used, just to bully Steve players? This simply isn't wobbling. It isn't Peach-Fountain stalling. It isn't Meta Knight's invisible cape glitch. Those were all obvious, and couldn't be done by accident. Could I see a Steve player press B by accident while in disadvantage and get the PMLG tech? Absolutely. After all, B is for blocks... aka one of Steve's very strong disadvantage tools. So I feel like, unfortunately, our hand has been forced here, and we must ban Steve.

To the Steve fans, it's worth noting that there are regions which will leave Steve unbanned. So, assuming Nintendo doesn't patch the tech out, there's still some room for us to see what happens. We'd just need a few Steve players willing to use the tech at high and top level. And maybe that's something we'll see. So it's not like testing out of the tech won't happen, though it is unlikely to happen since it's so frowned upon.

 

[KirbySquad101]

Ngl all the Steve ban talk completely overshadowing GnW's first supermajor win (outside of an offhanded swords comment) kinda stings at lot lol.

And coming off the brink of that event, if Japan was already on the fence about banning Steve, acola's performance at Maesuma really isn't going to do any favors in convincing them that any sort of action needs to be taken towards the character. If anything, the divide between regions on the topic is only going to get bigger from here on out.

 

[StrangeKitten]

Ngl all the Steve ban talk completely overshadowing GnW's first supermajor win (outside of an offhanded swords comment) kinda stings at lot lol.

And coming off the brink of that event, if Japan was already on the fence about banning Steve, acola's performance at Maesuma really isn't going to do any favors in convincing them that any sort of action needs to be taken towards the character. If anything, the divide between regions on the topic is only going to get bigger from here on out.

It's good to see that Game and Watch is still going strong in the meta!

 

[Aligo]

Ngl all the Steve ban talk completely overshadowing GnW's first supermajor win (outside of an offhanded swords comment) kinda stings at lot lol.

In all honesty I thought a gnw super win had already occurred.

 

[StrangeKitten]

In all honesty I thought a gnw super win had already occurred.

Now that you mention it, same. I'm surprised it took so long with how strong Maister is in the US/Mexico, and the character having strong reps in Japan as well.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

In all honesty I thought a gnw super win had already occurred.

Closest was Kagaribi 8, but because of COVID there was multiple DQs, leading into it only being a major win.

 

[Arthur97]

No one I've seen calling for a Steve ban was doing so solely because he's "weird". His odd animation style may make it hard to read some situations here and there, but I never got the the sense that that was the main reason why people wanted him banned. It was moreso how strong he is - he immediately forces approaches due to mining, but can set up a couple blocks in like, a second. So, his opponent is immediately on the backfoot, and I can't think of another character that starts the game with such a severe advantage. This alone wouldn't be too strong... but then, Steve has a super-quick up tilt and super-quick jab, all of which lead to combos that do boatloads of damage. And then, he also has some of the best kill power. Compare to the rest of the cast, where they typically only have a lot of combos or only have strong kill power. Rarely both, and when they do have both, they tend to have far more glaring weaknesses (such as say, the FGC characters, who are a little slow. must fight up close to get their strong combos, have slightly exploitable recoveries, and you have to get the inputs right to do the strong versions of their moves). Meanwhile, Steve also has a super-good recovery, is the only character who can effectively plank, and can live to ridiculous percents because he can tech off of his blocks (not to mention, blocks serving as a huge help in escaping disadvantage). Even with all these positives, I was against a ban. But it's not difficult to see why many took issue with his kit's design and function.

Keyword there being, was against a ban. I had faith that counterplay would develop, and that it was taking a long time because Steve is complex and unlike any other character in the game. And I was right. We were slowly but surely seeing players figure out how to handle the matchup. But, as I've stated, I've changed my opinion to pro-ban in light of the discovery of the PMLG tech. There are only a handful of characters I might not consider overpowered if they had the tech. Steve is obviously not among them, and should not be able to punish opponents for winning neutral. I'd much, much rather ban the tech itself, but the problem with doing that, is it's too subtle to be able to easily tell whether the tech has been performed. Leaving it unbanned would mean that Steve's opponent is forced to play around the tech, never feeling sure that their opponent won't do it. And then, if they think the Steve player did do it, they'd have to remember to save the replay (easy to forget) and take up TOs valuable time reviewing the footage. And then, what should the penalties be? Should the Steve player lose a stock for performing the tech? Should they lose a game? What if they perform the tech by accident? Should they be penalized for a genuine mistake? Would every Steve player try to claim they did it by mistake, even if some of them didn't? What about Steve's opponent? Do we penalize them for thinking the tech was used, when it wasn't? Since Steve is a widely-disliked character, would a good chunk of Steve's opponents try to call Steve players out on using the tech, even when they're fairly certain the tech wasn't used, just to bully Steve players? This simply isn't wobbling. It isn't Peach-Fountain stalling. It isn't Meta Knight's invisible cape glitch. Those were all obvious, and couldn't be done by accident. Could I see a Steve player press B by accident while in disadvantage and get the PMLG tech? Absolutely. After all, B is for blocks... aka one of Steve's very strong disadvantage tools. So I feel like, unfortunately, our hand has been forced here, and we must ban Steve.

To the Steve fans, it's worth noting that there are regions which will leave Steve unbanned. So, assuming Nintendo doesn't patch the tech out, there's still some room for us to see what happens. We'd just need a few Steve players willing to use the tech at high and top level. And maybe that's something we'll see. So it's not like testing out of the tech won't happen, though it is unlikely to happen since it's so frowned upon.

I mean, my original post on the other thing was in response to someone talking about that. Potentially the only person I've seen bring it up, but I pointed out Mr. Game & Watch as a counter.

 

[NotLiquid]

I think it's a mighty huge false equivalence to equate Game & Watch to Steve. There's other characters on the roster you can bring up if otherness was something that was only quantified in character presentation more than mechanics. But when it comes to the latter;

Game & Watch is a really conventional character once you get over the fact that his animations is only limited to key frames.

Steve is a character who's special attack turns the stage into something that the community would ban if it carried object permanence.

I really don't think what NairWizard was getting at was all that confusing. The only character that is remotely comparable to Steve in the way they buck the community's perceived natural order of mechanical convention is Hero, and I don't think it's a coincidence that he was the only other character where people entertained a slightly more serious discussion about a competitive ban.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Collision 2023 Top 8

Winner's
Riddles vs Sonix
Skyjay vs Lima

Loser's
Tweek vs Sparg0
Maister vs ShinyMark


What in the world is this top 8!? Probably the wackiest looking major top 8 in Ultimate history.

 

[NotLiquid]

None of the top 4 seeded players making it to Winners side, along with MkLeo and Light falling short at 9th. This tournament has been upset city.

 

[Cheryl~]

Riddles and Sonix fighting before Winners Finals is such a shame, they've had some really solid sets recently in online tournaments (where Sonix would predictably dominate) and at Squad Strike this weekend, Riddles was able to take it over Sonix being handicapped with only one Sonic stock. Hopefully this one is a banger addition to their growing rivalry.

EDIT: that was the set of the tournament after games 1 and 2. Incredible stuff from Riddles beating his bracket demon with the tried and true Terry!

 

[NairWizard]

If you're not rooting for Incineroar here, you're doing it wrong.

 

[superjm]

Can Incineroar just straight up be the best superheavy?

 

[Frihetsanka]

Can Incineroar just straight up be the best superheavy?

It's probably still Bowser. Hero recently got 7th at a Japanese supermajor (Maesuma TOP 11). Also, Bowser was voted #50 on the first official tier list, Incineroar #64, so it does seem like top players think more highly of Bowser than Incineroar.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Can Incineroar just straight up be the best superheavy?

I think it has to do more with Skyjay playing out of his mind, as well as his opponents making a lot of very crucial mistakes that is coming back to bite them in the end. His opponents doesn't seem to have the best experience in dealing with Incineroar offstage or recovering high, which is costing them greatly from time to time. Even Sparg0, who probably has loads of experience playing Skyjay, is making much errors.

Lima also got really unfortunate during his set versus Skyjay. In game 1, he had the win, but then went to go for the stylish down air KO, died, and Skyjay came back. Lima would also lose two stocks very early throughout the set trying to gimp him, being unaware of side B grab armor and up B superarmor, the former of which gimped him at very early percent when he had the guaranteed victory. Then there is Lima whopping Skyjay game 3, until Lima SD'd at essentially 0, then got cheesed by Incineroar up B unaware by the armor.

So, I find it to be overall a combination of Skyjay playing insane and the matchup inexperience from the opponent's side + making uncharacteristic errors. A lot of top players seem to be making silly errors this tournament, which resulted in the silly top 8 we have currently.


Edit: First ever recorded footage of a game 5 grand finals set that lasted 10 minutes.

 

[NotLiquid]

It feels absolutely criminal that Skyjay didn't earn this trip to Summit.

The fact that he made it this far and got this close to reversing the fortunes of Riddles' insane tournament bracket run resulted in what's easily some of the best Ultimate I've ever seen.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Collision 2023

1st: Riddles (claims the final Summit spot)
2nd: Skyjay (highest placing of Incineroar in a major/supermajor)
3rd: Sparg0 (according to SmashWiki, Sparg0 used Byleth at one point)
4th: Maister
5th: Lima
5th: Sonix
7th: ShinyMark
7th: Tweek (according to SmashWiki, Tweek used Cloud at one point)

Spoiler: Top 16

9th: MkLeo
9th: Light
9th: ApolloKage
9th: Zomba
13th: Ling
13th: Syrup
13th: Quandale Dinglelingleton
13th: MVD

Spoiler: Top 32

17th: Flow
17th: Kurama
17th: Cosmos
17th: Ikan
17th: MKBigBoss
17th: Quidd
17th: Peanut (highest placing of Little Mac in a supermajor)
17th: Peabnut
25th: Colorondo8
25th: Bobo
25th: kasmir (the return of yeti)
25th: SHADIC
25th: Jakal
25th: PkChris
25th: Yoda Cage
25th: Goblin

Spoiler: Top 64

33rd: Dabuz
33rd: Kola
33rd: Jake (final tournament outing for Jake)
33rd: SoulArts
33rd: Justin23
33rd: AndresFn
33rd: Dark Wizzy
33rd: ESAM
33rd: BacoN
33rd: Puppeh
33rd: Sisqui
33rd: fawn
33rd: MPg
33rd: Anathema
33rd: AndrewT
33rd: ram
49th: Mr. E
49th: Luma
49th: Vivi
49th: Jules
49th: Sinji
49th: Sweshi
49th: Gen
49th: Pelca
49th: Dovidio
49th: BeastModePaul
49th: Beastly
49th: Greg House
49th: Synergy
49th: Aryeh
49th: Dany
49th: ZD

This tournament feels like someone's bizarre fever dream. Half of what has occurred doesn't feel real.
Grand finals, accordingly, also felt like a dream. A game 5 set that lasted 10 minutes, with stocks getting deleted left-and-right.

Skyjay played like a robot. He knew every player's moves before they even made them, which is essential for a character that get highly rewarded for making correct reads and gets punished heavily if wrong. I did feel like his opponents sometimes at points donated him games either by not knowing the matchup or making uncharacteristic mistakes.

This is also the first major tourney that directly banned Steve's Phantom MLG instead of the character as a whole. Quandale reports that there was only one report of the tech being used at one point in the tourney but otherwise everything went very smoothly in enforcing the rule. Might push forward a Phantom MLG banned ruleset (and not Steve) if things are proceeding as smoothly as this tournament, which is nice to see. Through both rule enforcing and Steve players not using the tech at all, Phantom MLG hasn't really affected major tournaments so far. The aforementioned rule enforcing might have something to do with it, but then you look at acola who never used the tech despite it not being banned in his region. Some interesting observations to behold in this tourney.



With Beyond the Summit's closure, the next Smash Ultimate Summit 6 will be the final one. Here are the Summit lineup:

Invited
MkLeo
Glutonny
acola
ProtoBanham


Top 6 from Mainstage 2022
Sparg0
Tweek
Big D
Light
ApolloKage
Kurama


Highest placing non-qualified player from Genesis 9
MuteAce

Highest placing non-qualified player from Collision 2023
Riddles


Voted
Hungrybox
Aaron
NaetorU
VoiD

 

[Rizen]

I'm happy to see a tournament where Steve's tech is banned but not Steve working out. Hopefully this will be the blueprint for the future.