Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Hydreigonfan01]

View attachment 361862

Japanese Tier List (3 million match results used to create Super Smash Bros. Ultimate tier list for Japan's competitive scene.)

This is done by a wifi ladder instead of offline just so everyone knows. That's why stuff looks weird.

 

[Arthur97]

And this, people, is why proper data collection and interpretation is so important.

 

[Sucumbio]

It's an interesting view of Japan's Wifi warriors haha almost the opposite of offline

 

[Linkmain-maybe]

It's an interesting view of Japan's Wifi warriors haha almost the opposite of offline

Well these are organized matches, so I assume that the average quick player is similar to ours.

 

[Sucumbio]

With Big House 10 underway I'm expecting Light to further solidify himself amongst those who view him as the new number 1 (outside Japan at least.)

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Top 32 of Big House 10
https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/xz9muj

 

[Frihetsanka]

Hmm, based on that seeding, I could see SHADIC beating Zomba[...]

SHADIC faced off against Zomba at Rise N Grind IIRC and lost pretty badly.

got upset by shadic he outplayed me

I hope people in charge of the venue can understand that people can't fucking play in dogshit cold places well.

not going to another big house if this isn't fixed lmao

— Zomba (@ZombaSalvatore) October 8, 2022

Not the same tournament but SHADIC proving that he has the potential to beat Zomba. Aaron will be very difficult though, Diddy Kong is a bad matchup for Corrin.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

got upset by shadic he outplayed me

I hope people in charge of the venue can understand that people can't fucking play in dogshit cold places well.

not going to another big house if this isn't fixed lmao

— Zomba (@ZombaSalvatore) October 8, 2022

Not the same tournament but SHADIC proving that he has the potential to beat Zomba. Aaron will be very difficult though, Diddy Kong is a bad matchup for Corrin.

About that...
SHADIC 3-0 Aaron

 

[NotLiquid]

Fun things that have happened at The Big House 10 so far

• LeoN almost sent Onin to Losers using Hero. Ironically letting Steve mine for materials will give Hero ample time to similarly buff himself up to insane levels. It looked like a slept on and surprisingly even matchup.
• Kameme and his Sora added another prominent player onto his laundry list of big wins, this time taking a 3-1 set win against ESAM. As of writing, he also took a set off of Cosmos in a 3-2 nailbiter, preventing a reverse 3-0. As far as I know, Kameme's Sora has previously struggled against Shuton's Aegis, so the Cosmos win is impressive.
• Skyjay is on a huge Loser's bracket tear after falling early in an upset against Frostbyte's Roy.
• Lucky, a Piranha Plant player, made it to Top 24.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Few more things to add to the list:

• Both ESAM and BassMage had unfortunate run-ins versus Dark Wizzy and Zinoto, respectively, getting 3-0'd by them both and ending their runs at 17th place.
• Maister is out at 17th as well, with Zomba's secondary finally putting in the work by defeating him 3-1. The sponsorship curse strikes again.

Fun things that have happened at The Big House 10 so far

• LeoN almost sent Onin to Losers using Hero. Ironically letting Steve mine for materials will give Hero ample time to similarly buff himself up to insane levels. It looked like a slept on and surprisingly even matchup.
• Kameme and his Sora added another prominent player onto his laundry list of big wins, this time taking a 3-1 set win against ESAM. As of writing, he also took a set off of Cosmos in a 3-2 nailbiter, preventing a reverse 3-0. As far as I know, Kameme's Sora has previously struggled against Shuton's Aegis, so the Cosmos win is impressive.
• Skyjay is on a huge Loser's bracket tear after falling early in an upset against Frostbyte's Roy.
• Lucky, a Piranha Plant player, made it to Top 24.

LeoN also nearly beat BassMage in loser's with , although that is a matchup I definitely say is in Hero's favor. BassMage is simply built different.
Kameme is now about to fight Onin for a spot in top 8 winner's. Kameme narrowly defeated Jake back at Glitch, but Onin is a different beast. The outcome of this will be interesting.
Lucky sadly fell to PsyKoD 3-1, ending his run at 17th.


Edit: Frostbyte eliminates Cosmos at 17th with a reverse 3-0 victory.

 

[TCT~Phantom]

got upset by shadic he outplayed me

I hope people in charge of the venue can understand that people can't fucking play in dogshit cold places well.

not going to another big house if this isn't fixed lmao

— Zomba (@ZombaSalvatore) October 8, 2022

Not the same tournament but SHADIC proving that he has the potential to beat Zomba. Aaron will be very difficult though, Diddy Kong is a bad matchup for Corrin.

3-0d by Shadic once again

Kid is phenomenal but that matchup is literally unwinnable for diddy, so fucking frustrating

— Moist | Aaron (@AaronFGC) October 9, 2022

Someone jinxed it lol.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Someone jinxed it lol.

Haha, I'll take it! Maybe I should bring out a Corrin pocked if I ever have trouble with a Diddy Kong player, chances are they won't know the matchup. Apparently Aaron thinks it's bad for Diddy. Oh, and Aaron lost 3-0 to SHADIC at Low Tide City 2022 apparently, huh.

And apparently SHADIC took Light to game 5, Fox being a MU that I would've expected being tough for Corrin. Huh...

 

[Sucumbio]

Dark Wizzy is definitely showing up this tournament and is now in top 8 after beating Zinoto and Marss.

Love seeing my main Ike get so far also and with PsyKoD at the helm

 

[The_Bookworm]

The Big House 10 Top 8

Winner's
Light vs Riddles
Onin vs MuteAce

Loser's
SHADIC vs Tweek
Kameme vs Dark Wizzy


We are about to see the Corrin vs Diddy matchup again. Onin and MuteAce are also about to get a runback from Smash Con.
Pretty diverse top 8 we have here.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

The Big House 10 Top 8

Winner's
Light vs Riddles
Onin vs MuteAce

Loser's
SHADIC vs Tweek
Kameme vs Dark Wizzy


We are about to see the Corrin vs Diddy matchup again. Onin and MuteAce are also about to get a runback from Smash Con.

Onin and MuteAce also played at Rise N Grind, and yet again Onin won in a game 5 set.

 

[NotLiquid]

It's criminal that Dark Wizzy and Kameme have to face against each other in the first set of Top 8 losers side. Both of these players are on electrifying runs right now taking on some brutal players in the bracket, both playing character underdogs. Dark Wizzy is especially the big story now with a welcome return to form after his early Ultimate tenure was filled with so much promise that never quite found its way back after quarantine.

As an aside I find it funny how Kameme posts Sora thoughts after some of his sets. If I understood one of his recent tweets correctly he pointed out after beating IcyMist that he believes people erroneously assume Samus has the edge in that matchup.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

I believe this is the first time solo has made top 8 in a major bracket, Leo would always use or alongside her. Funnily enough I think the same happened to as well with The Big House 7 due to Cosmos.

 

[Rizen]

I feel like there are some really good characters who sadly get made redundant by similar top tiers who are better. Corrin and Ike are both good but don't really have a place in the meta with Aegis, Cloud and Roy being superior picks. Byleth probably would be overshadowed too if not for MKLeo.

 

[superjm]

There's a non-zero chance Onin might be the best Steve right now.

He doesn't have nearly the discipline in neutral that acola has but the way he just stacks option after option after option to suffocate his opponent and has the game sense to apply Steve's tools in ways that are advantageous to him makes for a chaotic but controlled fighting style that gives people fits. And it seems like he's just continuing to add more and more of these applications as time passes. I'm particularly a fan of him charging fsmash on dirt blocks in advantage to create a pseudo option select that lets him use such a powerful option while minimizing risk.

 

[NairWizard]

I had Onin winning the tournament again, but it's Riddles' TIME.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Now to wait for some of y'all to cry about Kazuya.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Now to wait for some of y'all to cry about Kazuya.

Don't think people are really doing that right now.
Today was simply a great tournament between some of the finest in the entire game.


Some things to notice about this tournament:

• First time Kazuya won a major, especially notable since Riddles didn't go Terry at all during his streamed sets. Riddles always get in these modes where he starts playing godlike with one character, then proceeds to wreck house with said character. Today was his Kazuya's time to shine.
• First time a solo Corrin has reached top 8 at a major.
• First time a solo Ike has reached top 12 at a major since MkLeo's Ike in early 2019. Pretty dang good since Ike is a character that has been starving for good high level placements in a very, very long time.

Over at the Melee side, aMSa's victory marked three notable things:

• First time Yoshi has ever won a Melee major.
• First time a new character has won a Melee major since Axe's win at Smash Summit 8 at 2019.
• First time a Japanese player has won a Melee major since Captain Jack at MLG San Francisco 2004. In Japan, Melee hasn't really reached the playerbase size and strength than the rest of the Smash games at their peak. Even Smash 64 is more popular in Japan than Melee is. As such, this victory is a major milestone for the Japanese Melee community.

Of course this is a bigger tournament for Melee, as you would come to expect for The Big House tournament series, but a lot of pretty historic stuff for Smash occurred today.

 

[toonito]

congrats Riddles

this is also the biggest win a fighting game character has had in Smash history

 

[NotLiquid]

With Riddles’ Kazuya run, every Fighters Pass 2 character has now won a major.

 

[williamsga555]

Biggest thing I noticed from grands is that Riddles has started implementing Kazuya's aerials a lot, especially up air as a combo breaker/air-to-air pressure tool and fair as a momentum mixup/poke. Looked like a way more rounded version of his Kazuya than we'd seen in the past and it paid off big time.

 

[blackghost]

I'm usually not in favor of invoking smash 4 comparisons but what lima did to kept in that semi finals was just brutal.

But I'm never gonna be civinced bayo is some secret good character. It takes too much bracket luck for her to win. Sonix Sonic just makes the mu impossible.
Good placement for lima.

Now for Riddles. Thank you for sticking with Kazuya and thank you for not playing kazuya the combo simulator but kazuya the CHARACTER. Thats been riddles major issues cs top level players and why hed struggle in the top 8s and top 4s he would get to.
He's earned this and the raw emotion was deserved.

Riddles vs light and kazuya vs fox is some of the most fun you can have watching smash ultimate imo.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Kazuya is now added to characters that have won a major in 2021/2022.

 

[Frihetsanka]

OrionStats updated. Top 35:

Some thoughts on top 35: Steve maintains #1, ROB #2. Samus at #7 is really interesting, partly it's because of the players but the character does seem pretty good. Joker at #9 despite "not having any notable players anymore" (which isn't even true). Kazuya at #10 is very interesting. The argument against Kazuya being top tier is that he has some -2 matchups but in practice he seems to still do really well against those characters? I wonder if those matchups are actually that bad or if Kazuya has enough of an X factor to still make them even or only slightly losing?

Sonic at #14 and climbing. I've been seeing more and more people put Sonic in top 5, with DDee even putting him at #1 earlier today. I could see him being top 5, his theory is really strong, although we'll see if people can adapt. It's clear that Sonic is quite a beast in this game, at least after receiving a good amount of buffs from patches.

Bayonetta at #24 makes me feel vindicated that I've been thinking she's high tier for a while. Lima and Bloom4Eva have been doing work with Bayonetta. Peach at #27 is rough for a character generally considered top tier, although I suspect part of it is because of Samsora being banned. Fighter Pass 2 probably hurt Peach quite a bit though.

Outside of top 35 we see Sheik at #42, which seems low given how optimistic people seem to be for her. I suspect she's hurt by VoiD focusing more on Multiversus and Kameme focusing more on Sora. Chrom at #43, compare with Roy at #8, quite the gap. Toon Link at #46, higher than Link at #57. I've been thinking that Toon Link is better than Link for a while now, and the results seem to back me up. Corrin and Byleth tied for #49. Given their low number of notable players (Ly for both, SHADIC for Corrin, MkLeo occasionally playing Byleth) that doesn't seem terrible. SHADIC's recent top 8 is a good indication that Corrin might end up being a lower high tier character, and I think Byleth is probably in the same area.

Sora at #54 and climbing. Kamame is showing that Sora might be a high tier character, potentially. Time will tell.

Isabelle at #59, Dr. Mario at #61, while not great, is higher than we'd expect from these characters. Are they not quite bottom 10? Or are the results a bit misleading in this case?

If we look at bottom 10, we'll notice the following characters (from 10th worst to worst): Banjo & Kazooie, Mii Gunner, Lucario, Pit, King Dedede, Piranha Plant, Kirby, Marth, Ganondorf, Mii Swordfighter. Marth having very little representation is not surprising, given that there are so many better sword characters (including Lucina). Pit is likely hurt by Earth not playing, I'm not convinced he's not mid tier though. Piranha Plant 5th worst results despite having a great player in Brood, even Brood struggles to make Piranha Plant work.

With all this being said: Results are not everything. No one things Ness is #11 in the game. Sephiroth likely isn't #12 either (and if KEN realizes that Sonic is better, then I suspect Sephiroth will drop quite a bit, although as a former Sephiroth-main I enjoy seeing his Sephiroth).

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Something interesting at TBH10:

Riddles was playing SHADIC in friendlies at The Big House 10 and started getting the opinion that Corrin is busted. Marss, ESAM, WaDi, Tweek and MkLeo all think the character is high tier as well. Seems opinion is starting to shift that she's good despite not having many Corrin players. The Smash 4 top tiers seem to absolutely be returning to top level play in the past few months for sure.

(I also find Corrin more interesting of a character gameplay wise then she was in Smash 4)

 

[Arthur97]

Isn't one of the major things hurting Kazuya's placement (outside of execution) consistency? Pros tend to love consistency, but Kazuya is designed to blow up or be blown up. Yes, he has a frightening X factor, but X factors don't always work out.

 

[Eremurus]

His lack of consistency is not really a big issue, and has been overblown.

I feel like Riddles simply utilized more of Kazuya's options and moveset, in particular, aerials to stop getting crossed up, or to punish Light rushing in.

 

[Arthur97]

Is it? He almost seems designed to be inconsistent. And in a more results manner. Moveset inconsistency is more Sora's thing.

 

[Eremurus]

Is it?

I do not believe Kazuya is that inconsistent, results, or moveset wise. I do agree Sora's moveset inconsistencies are an issue for that character.

If Kazuya is inconsistent, it's not in the traditional sense, for example, his moves simply not working in a vacuum, or not being cohesive. I don't think either criteria applies to Kazuya. If I had to guess, it would be problematic matchup archetypes that give Kazuya issues. So, he functions, but when the opponent can circumvent a lot of risk when choosing to interact with Kazuya, why would they not opt for that instead?

Additionally, I feel Kazuya players were also still learning the character, and Kazuya has a high skill ceiling. I saw Riddles make adjustments and modifications, and win a stacked tournament. The Kazuya wasn't a glorified MvC2 combo machine, there was nuanced neutral, and smart "get off me" option selects too.

I like how blackghost put it.

Now for Riddles. Thank you for sticking with Kazuya and thank you for not playing kazuya the combo simulator but kazuya the CHARACTER.

I like the quote, because I agree with it. 100%.

 

[blackghost]

Kazuya is an extremely consistent character. If he lands a move after doing the correct input you as a player and viewer know what is supposed to happen next.
He can reset you or take a different combo route but it's very clear when the player messed up beciase Kazuya as a character doesn't just not have things work. Ryu Kazuya and Terry are all consistent characters where it is easy to tell where a player messed up.

Compare that to sora bayo or Ken. If Ken or bayo land up b there's no way to 100 percent know if the move will fully or adequently connect. Which is why Ken has fallen off over time in favor of ryu.

 

[Linkmain-maybe]

I feel people mean inconsistency as is there are stocks where he wins neutral once or twice but with moves that don’t lead to much, OR, he nevers wins neutral at all. Then on the other side he does a 0-death with one neutral win.

Like, his own brand of inconsistency. Instead of inconsistency because he doesn’t work, he is inconsistent because he works, considering he feels very much like he was intentionally given a subpar neutral.

 

[TCT~Phantom]

I'd say Kazuya is inconsistent because in theory you need at least a little bracket luck. Kazuya is one of the only arguable top tiers that has -2s and even a few -3s. Sonic for instance is like pulling teeth for a kazuya player. Several characters that can just play lame and control neutral are also a headache.

If you read DI well and execute with Kazuya, yeah he is relatively consistent. But solo Kazuya does need a decent bracket to truly shine. Kazuya also obviously needs a lot of work to shine as a solo pick. Look at Riddles at TBH 10 for instance. For starters, he had an ok bracket. Nothing amazing, but he did not have the worst mus out there for Kazuya. But his play also was out of this world. His punish game was flexible and not just playing Kazuya like a killbot. He was able to have a solid neutral with Kazuya. I think playing Kazuya with this mentality is the future for Kazuya as a solo viable character.

Or you could have a pocket Kazuya you take to FD when your opponent chooses FD, which should objectively no longer be a starter.

 

[Arthur97]

Yeah, it's not an issue with his moves not working as aside from maybe the 10 hit combo, most seem pretty reliable. A lack of multi-hits doesn't hurt there. But, yes, he has a subpar to bad neutral it seems along with arguably the hardest execution of any fighter. The closest analogy might be the smol rodents. While Pichus are still probably a very good fighter, they are super light and can therefore be inconsistent. Kazuya is by no means light, but has other issues. Essentially, he is an X factor fighter, and while he can blow you up, the X factor may not always pull through and he gets comboed to death instead.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Or you could have a pocket Kazuya you take to FD when your opponent chooses FD, which should objectively no longer be a starter.

And this is why most of Europe runs character before stage.

 

[NairWizard]

pic.twitter.com/21m4HesiTZ

— Liquid | Riddles (@RiddlesMK) October 13, 2022

Riddles' Kazuya matchup chart. Seems optimistic, but if it's even remotely true it makes the character look like a top 3 contender.

 

[Frihetsanka]

pic.twitter.com/21m4HesiTZ

— Liquid | Riddles (@RiddlesMK) October 13, 2022

Riddles' Kazuya matchup chart. Seems optimistic, but if it's even remotely true it makes the character look like a top 3 contender.

It carries a bit more weight since he just won a major with Kazuya. I feel like the character is going to get better. Switching to character before stage would help a bit but it won't really help against solo mains (and Riddles has been mostly playing Kazuya recently, from what I've seen). His losing matchups aren't even all that common aside from arguably Sonic.