Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Kokiden]

It's one of those 'both are true' situations. Generally the consensus seems to be that Onin is carried by Steve and ONLY that. It's important to emphasize the other side.

It is definitely "both are true." That's right.

That's why I said it's both. It's just very annoying when people completely discount the character's part in it, and say it's only skill, when no, that's not the case at all. The reverse is true, too.

If it was all skill, then we should be seeing Isabelle's or other character's, but we're not.

I mean yeah, players benefit from picking good characters. What a shock. You think Leo got to 5th place JUST because he's Leo and not because he was piloting a different busted character to power through his relative inconsistent play? We tend to evaluate in terms of player vs player because every character used in top level play has strong, sometimes busted tools that allow the player to apply their skillset most effectively. Steve is absolutely no different in this regard, and just because he may end up being the "best" of the busted top tier when everything shakes out doesn't mean he should be treated different than any other character.

Steve is not going to achieve a win rate remotely high enough to even consider the idea of a ban, which I think was the entire point of his post, correct me if I'm wrong.

No, that was not the point of my post at all.

My point is, it is tiring to see black and white takes. In regards to this situation, I'm seeing takes where bans should never be considered under any circumstances, because it is 100% the player, and nothing to do with the character, which is ass tbh.

The truth is it's a combination of both.

My point is these types of discussions should never be completely of the table.

Most of the times calls for bans are outright dumb, but that's not to say, that sometimes, it might be warranted.

I am seeing too many takes where we should never, ever, talk about bans. The thing is, hypothetically speaking, even if there are 7 Steve's in top 8's, you're still going to see people say "Nah, it's not the character, nothings wrong" and that is what annoys me: the complete and utter refusal to think maybe, perhaps, there is something actually wrong with a character.

Things aren't so black and white; some of the takes on this topic here and across smash media are sort of insane to me--everything from Onin is completely carried and only beat Leo because of Steve to maybe top players aren't actually good to Onin is clearly #1 and better than Acola.

All of the following could be simultaneously true:

• Steve mains don't need to learn matchups in the way that most other characters do
• Steve is the strongest character
• Onin is a top player and very skilled, independent of Steve
• Onin is particularly skilled at playing Steve (like Maister with Game and Watch), instead of being a generalist

A number of other combinations exist; this is just one possible reality.



If you want a ban, ban criteria has to be different from "this character always wins." Because no character will always win. Player skill and diversity of character choice ensure that. You will always encounter the argument that X player beat Y character, so Y is beatable, if you choose "winning a lot" as your precondition.

Basically, pick a different framework to justify a call to ban. Onin winning a couple of tournaments isn't it, or else we'd have banned Joker back when Leo was doing well with him.

Refer to my post above since I already addressed this.

I just don't like the approach where someone dunks their head in the sand and never entertains the possibility of something happening. It's like watching Top 12 have 9 Steve's, all newcomers who are just trolling, where they play a completely different game from all the other characters on the roster, and still saying "Nah I see nothing wrong here. It's never the character at all."

I just don't get where all the denial is coming from.

At the end of the day, it's not up to me, but going by how the previous smash games were treated, even if, hypothetically, this character completely dominates the meta, the mindset I'm seeing going around now is "Nah... it's fine. We should never think about bans. Ever."

I don't really condone banning characters, since most of the characters I hate are just obnoxious at worst, but if a character completely plays a different game, doesn't even need to try to best someone else, and just invalidates characters in general because they can't do anything to him, then yes, perhaps it's time to at least think about it seriously instead of outright refusing to contemplate it.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I don't really condone banning characters, since most of the characters I hate are just obnoxious at worst, but if a character completely plays a different game, doesn't even need to try to best someone else, and just invalidates characters in general because they can't do anything to him, then yes, perhaps it's time to at least think about it seriously instead of outright refusing to contemplate it.

I feel this take is very reactionary'.

"But if a character plays a different game"

We've already gotten cases of characters who play different game plans from other characters like Melee Puff who the community has people arguing over banning for not being a 'hype' rushdown character, we have had many people complain about Sonic with his infamous ability to hit and run and if we go into other fighting games then there's even more examples like idk, XX Bridget, Happy Chaos and basically anyone else who has a more unorthodox playstyle.

"Doesn't even need to try to best someone else and just invalidates characters in general because they can't do anything to him"

This has the easy "If he's that good, prove it by effortlessly demolishing everyone with Steve" answer but this also reminds me of another character who was dominating early on. Pichu. They were called busted with demands for nerfs and while the nerfs included in the next patch certainly played a part of why they dropped, another thing is that people were figuring out the matchup around that time. I feel Steve is simply getting a similar thing where people just need to learn the matchup instead of enforcing Patch Culture. Steve may have been around for a year, yes, but did people know what he was capable of? No. Meaning again, not many Steves around leading to matchup inexperience to shock and horror when people figure out how this character works optimally, outcry for nerfs or even a ban and then the matchup gets figured out making the character less of a problem. This is without going into how we already have characters who are completely invalidated in this game by DLC meaning it wouldn't be an issue exclusive to Steve

"Perhaps it's time to at least think about it seriously instead of outright refusing to contemplate it."

Then I have a final question. After seeing people point out that matchup inexperience is a thing for this 80+ roster and people showing examples of people fighting Steve who made mistakes and show ways to deal with Steve, why should an entire ban be seriously considered? A ban means total erasure, no need to actually learn or try meaning the character cannot be unbanned because nobody would have tried to figure anything out, effectively killing the character. This is the same as when Akatsuki suddenly won a major in Japan with Hero leading to Hero ban discussions popping up again despite not having been a problem before.

 

[Kokiden]

Then I have a final question. After seeing people point out that matchup inexperience is a thing for this 80+ roster and people showing examples of people fighting Steve who made mistakes and show ways to deal with Steve, why should an entire ban be seriously considered? A ban means total erasure, no need to actually learn or try meaning the character cannot be unbanned because nobody would have tried to figure anything out, effectively killing the character. This is the same as when Akatsuki suddenly won a major in Japan with Hero leading to Hero ban discussions popping up again despite not having been a problem before.

No.

My point was the same as it was since the very beginning, I'm merely saying that when the situation becomes one where we would need to think about it, at least think and talk about it.

Because right now, with the mindset I'm seeing, I 100% believe that even if, hypothetically, such a situation happens, the same rhetoric of "Nothing is wrong with the character at all, it's 100% the player just being that good" will still be shouted from the rooftops. Dunking heads into the sand and blocking of ears to stay in denial, so to speak.

I seriously doubt people who are against a ban would ever change their minds, under any reasons tbh, even if the scene were to change into one where top 8 is all Steve's. That's the gist of what I'm seeing when I read discussions about this.

I also said it earlier as well. MOST calls for bans are asinine.

However, applying blanket logic of "past requests were dumb so we should NEVER think about them at all" is just as dumb tbh. Case by case situation, after all.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

No.

My point was the same as it was since the very beginning, I'm merely saying that when the situation becomes one where we would need to think about it, at least think and talk about it.

Because right now, with the mindset I'm seeing, I 100% believe that even if, hypothetically, such a situation happens, the same rhetoric of "Nothing is wrong with the character at all, it's 100% the player just being that good" will still be shouted from the rooftops. Dunking heads into the sand and blocking of ears to stay in denial, so to speak.

I seriously doubt people who are against a ban would ever change their minds, under any reasons tbh, even if the scene were to change into one where top 8 is all Steve's. That's the gist of what I'm seeing when I read discussions about this.

I also said it earlier as well. MOST calls for bans are asinine.

However, applying blanket logic of "past requests were dumb so we should NEVER think about them at all" is just as dumb tbh. Case by case situation, after all.

Again, a ban is an incredibly drastic measure, justified or not. You can fearmonger about the scene being dominated by 8 Steves in top 8 for the rest of the scene, but we clearly aren't at that point meaning this would be very premature if it was somehow justified. Do you truly think something that would change the game as we know it be it the players, the meta and the future should already be seriously considered this early? Is it really worth seriously discussing it before there's a chance to prove it's as asinine as the others? Cause Steve's no different from other 'late bloomers' so to speak

 

[Kokiden]

Again, a ban is an incredibly drastic measure, justified or not. You can fearmonger about the scene being dominated by 8 Steves in top 8 for the rest of the scene, but we clearly aren't at that point meaning this would be very premature if it was somehow justified. Do you truly think something that would change the game as we know it be it the players, the meta and the future should already be seriously considered this early? Is it really worth seriously discussing it before there's a chance to prove it's as asinine as the others? Cause Steve's no different from other 'late bloomers' so to speak

It is, yes, but like I said, leaving something on the table doesn't mean you need to action it. It's just there.

I just hate an option being completely blocked out, especially if, and I keep saying this yet it seems people are ignoring this, hypothetically, the scene gets worse, it is warranted.

Curious to know, but if the situation I proposed actually does end up happening, and all these Steve's are dominating by just trolling or not even trying all that much, would you even consider a ban? Would you even consider it worthwhile to be discussed then? Because right now, like I said earlier, I find it not likely, if at all, for people who oppose bans to change their minds.

(Speaking of, very eye opening to see Zackray's Joker struggle with Shuton's Steve in Sumapa just now... where he was just playing around yet gave Zack a heck of a hard time...)

 

[Cutie Gwen]

It is, yes, but like I said, leaving something on the table doesn't mean you need to action it. It's just there.

I just hate an option being completely blocked out, especially if, and I keep saying this yet it seems people are ignoring this, hypothetically, the scene gets worse, it is warranted.

Curious to know, but if the situation I proposed actually does end up happening, and all these Steve's are dominating by just trolling or not even trying all that much, would you even consider a ban? Would you even consider it worthwhile to be discussed then? Because right now, like I said earlier, I find it not likely, if at all, for people who oppose bans to change their minds.

(Speaking of, very eye opening to see Zackray's Joker struggle with Shuton's Steve in Sumapa just now... where he was just playing around yet gave Zack a heck of a hard time...)

The reason could not be more clear, it cannot be taken seriously as we're at the part where Steve being good is a surprise meaning there's a good chance this is merely an upset instead of an actual problem.

Again, if it were merely as easy as 'trolling and playing around' instead of blatantly not knowing hot to fight Steve, then everyone would already be switching to Steve to domimate right now. If we're in a meta that revolves solely around a single character where picking anyone else would be deemed throwing the game like that time M2King played Meta Knight in a Brawl tournament only to switch to Ganondorf in top 8, sure, that can be taken seriously. But we are not there meaning this is the same stage as when seeing people call for nerfs or even a ban for Joker, Hero, Min Min, Pythra and Kazuya

 

[Gearkeeper-8a]

The ban talk coul be productive if there was an aim and not something more that a rant to a disliked character.

Example when is a ban guarranted? What is the empirical data that we should use to ban a character, when its too much usage/win ratio.

And because this is a standard for a ban all characters in the game should be subjected to the same standard for all regions in the community.

A ban is a final option to a problem.

So its get tired when people talk about it with minimal effort or overeactionary thoughts, like "x character will kill the game" self-fulfilling prophecy comments.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I said this two days ago: "I don't think he's getting banned anytime soon. It's too early to be talking about bans, in my opinion. Things will have to get worse before a ban would have a chance of passing."

I still think it's too early to be discussing a ban. While the signs of Smash 4 Bayonetta-ish level of dominance/toxicity are there, signs likely won't be enough to make a ban stick. Even if the pro-ban people turn out to be right, a ban right now would likely not stick for too long, and the anti-ban people would complain quite a bit. We're probably better off waiting to see if counter-play develops and if Steve players keep getting amazing results.

While I don't think OrionStats results is the best metric to judge a character, it's interesting that Steve has 278.5 points right now with #2, R. O. B., only has 211.5. Quite a gap. Aegis is #4 with 170.5. Sephiroth is #9 with 117, which is very interesting since many people here seem to not think very highly of him? Captain Falcon is down to #28. Some people here called him a top tier candidate back when he had better results, do they still think he is, I wonder? Pikachu #44.

It's also interesting that Shulk is #14. Not quite the top 5 character some people used to believe he was, but still showing that he's no slouch most likely, combining theory with results. I wonder if it will last?

 

[NairWizard]

In case you didn't watch it, it might be relevant to you that Shuton and Zackray played at Weekly Smash Party #60. It was very close and Shuton did get the reset, but Zackray ended up narrowly clutching it out. Joker-Steve looked like a pretty alright matchup for Joker.

 

[superjm]

In case you didn't watch it, it might be relevant to you that Shuton and Zackray played at Weekly Smash Party #60. It was very close and Shuton did get the reset, but Zackray ended up narrowly clutching it out. Joker-Steve looked like a pretty alright matchup for Joker.

Worth noting that Zackray clearly had no idea what to do in the Steve matchup and ran into very obvious mixups and traps, but by the same token Shuton’s Steve was very basic and suboptimal, missing a lot of free damage from failed followups. Interestingly enough, Zackray said afterwards he’ll probably use ROB against Steve from now on.

One observation that I can make is that if Zackray had been facing acola or even Onin there’s a real chance he would’ve been run over like Leo was due to his clear matchup inexperience.

 

[blackghost]

We are approaching a year of Steve being out. The fact that multiple top players not only seem inexperienced ( whichbis something they may not be able to help)but lack a basic gameplan vs the character is downright appalling. This is the age of YouTube and clips there are basic guides everywhere. Idk what these players have been doing regarding this character

 

[Sucumbio]

The same thing they've always done really... Breakout performance is the new thing. The previous mentions of wifi play is spot on. It's the best source of match up experience and unlike Brawl or even 4 the online is actually good enough.

 

[Kokiden]

In case you didn't watch it, it might be relevant to you that Shuton and Zackray played at Weekly Smash Party #60. It was very close and Shuton did get the reset, but Zackray ended up narrowly clutching it out. Joker-Steve looked like a pretty alright matchup for Joker.

I was watching it live.

Shuton himself said that he was amazed his wi fi Steve did that well, and Zackray said he wont be choosing Joker in the Steve MU again.

It was very basic Steve play yet he was doing extremely well against Zackray's Joker. Steve just has very high reward in his interactions where he can easily reverse disadvantage from what I was watching.

I said this two days ago: "I don't think he's getting banned anytime soon. It's too early to be talking about bans, in my opinion. Things will have to get worse before a ban would have a chance of passing."

I still think it's too early to be discussing a ban. While the signs of Smash 4 Bayonetta-ish level of dominance/toxicity are there, signs likely won't be enough to make a ban stick. Even if the pro-ban people turn out to be right, a ban right now would likely not stick for too long, and the anti-ban people would complain quite a bit. We're probably better off waiting to see if counter-play develops and if Steve players keep getting amazing results.

While I don't think OrionStats results is the best metric to judge a character, it's interesting that Steve has 278.5 points right now with #2, R. O. B., only has 211.5. Quite a gap. Aegis is #4 with 170.5. Sephiroth is #9 with 117, which is very interesting since many people here seem to not think very highly of him? Captain Falcon is down to #28. Some people here called him a top tier candidate back when he had better results, do they still think he is, I wonder? Pikachu #44.

It's also interesting that Shulk is #14. Not quite the top 5 character some people used to believe he was, but still showing that he's no slouch most likely, combining theory with results. I wonder if it will last?

Just watched the Tweek talks podcast and Charles brought up a very interesting point: it's a grey area and when will it be enough to warrant a ban? Because in regards to bans, there has been no bans in the past, so it's likely to think it it's not going to happen.

Gimr has already expressed he wont be banning the character, and from his tweet yday, I think that no matter what happens he won't be doing it anyway...

But yes, PinkFresh also said some good points about it too. It's timestamped towards the end of Tweek talks where he made a good comparison with bayo in sm4sh and worth a watch.

I agree with you though, in that at this very second, it's too early to ban. Are there signs of bayo 4 levels toxicity? Yes, and refusing to acknowledge even at least that, is straight up denial imo (speaking generally here since I'm paraphrasing what you said here sorta)

 

[The_Bookworm]

We are approaching a year of Steve being out. The fact that multiple top players not only seem inexperienced ( whichbis something they may not be able to help)but lack a basic gameplan vs the character is downright appalling. This is the age of YouTube and clips there are basic guides everywhere. Idk what these players have been doing regarding this character

Correction, we are actually almost TWO years of Steve being out. Steve was released on October 2020.

To be honest, I think players actually did a better job in dealing with Steve's gameplan back then than they are now. Granted that Steve's meta was underdeveloped back then, but I see players do stuff vs him that I don't really see them do anymore, namely doing a better job at playing the midrange and spacing versus the character.

 

[NairWizard]

I don't think that's true. Instead of players no longer being prepared for Steve, it's more the case that Steve's counterplay to preparation has evolved.

Let's take a look at the Steve and Game and Watch matchup as an example.

Maister vs. Onin Winners Finals. In the first stock vs. Maister, Onin has a lot of trouble spacing against grounded Game and Watch. There isn't a single perfectly spaced attack in the first 1 minute, and Onin loses a lot of neutral for it--he swings, and Maister outspaces and beats his swings. Onin also gets interrupted a whole lot while mining, sometimes mining right next to Game and Watch or mining while Game and Watch lands with a hitbox (https://youtu.be/Soa5uG2eUv0?t=96). At 1:42 Onin gets KOed for mashing aerials while Game and Watch continues to space.

Clearly, that approach won't work. Onin realizes that Steve can't space against Game and Watch in neutral so easily; Game and Watch outranges and can interrupt aerial swats with up-b.

How does Onin adapt? Standing on a block near ledge. If he's on a block diagonally away from Game and Watch, but also toward the edge of the stage, then he can space falling aerials easily because Game and Watch has to jump up to him to hit him. No grounded up-b available, no low b-airs, no up-air from below--Game and Watch has to use rising n-air, which Steve b-air can outpace.

SSC 2022 Winners Finals - Maister (Game & Watch) Vs. Onin (Steve) Smash Ultimate Tournament

This Smash Bros Tournament Winners Finals match was streamed live on: https://www.twitch.tv/vgbootcampSuper Smash Con is a Super Smash Bros Tournament in Cha...

youtu.be

Here's the timestamp. Onin sets up a block then fastfall aerials to space out Game and Watch. First on the right side of the stage and then the same setup on the left side of the stage at https://youtu.be/Soa5uG2eUv0?t=122 to punish the reflected Minecart. Now that Maister's been conditioned to jump, Onin outspaces Maister's b-air with an Anvil and kills Game and Watch.

After this kill, Onin's next big neutral win comes at https://youtu.be/Soa5uG2eUv0?t=142.

The blockfall strategy doesn't work this time; Onin lands and Maister isn't even there. Onin panic rolls away, then weaves around and returns to the block setup.

He sets up another block and this time falls without aerialing--no risk since he won't be in animation lag if Maister approaches the block, and Onin can tech against the blocks on the left if b-aired, which happens. Maister down-smashes expecting the roll and gets minecarted (a pretty decent call on Maister's part since Onin just rolled a couple of times and the %s are lopsided). Onin charges an f-smash at 2:42 to make a similar callout and gets dash attacked.

The next time Onin stands on a single block, Maister is ready. He charges up-smash to hit past the falling Steve aerial or roll. But Onin's now realized that there's no risk to just falling, so Onin falls, expecting to tech the block if hit and just land if no hit. Maister up-smashes, and Onin grabs Maister and wins the stock, f-smashing the Game and Watch tech.

After this diamond comes online and the game changes a bit, but in the first two stocks, Maister won neutral approximately 4-5 times as often as Onin did, but the single-block-near-side-of-stage setup is super lethally skewed in risk-reward to favor Onin. All Onin has to do is pick one of three options here (fastfall aerial, fall straight wait into grab or Minecart, and fall roll), and Steve gets more reward 2/3 of the time.

Is this Maister's lack of preparation for Steve? I don't think so. Onin chose to set up a single block and use fastfalls to play the Game and Watch matchup, and Maister didn't have easy counterplay. The counterplay to this would be, if I had to guess, b-reverse bacon, retreating b-air, and jab.

Acola plays the matchup completely differently. In Acola vs. Miya, you'll see Acola set up a 3-block wall and call out Miya's jumps with perfectly spaced aerials on reaction: https://youtu.be/wEZNomK5ZcM?t=121. Although this has a similar theme (make Game and Watch jump), the counterplay is completely different and practicing it is much harder).

Every Steve can play the matchup differently because they can choose a different block setup for neutral. Preparing for all of that is easier to say than to do. There are literally dozens of possible block setups and only the Steve player knows which block setup they're going to choose to use in a given match on a given stock.

Some top players are definitely underprepared for the Steve matchup, particularly at ledge--and, indeed, you can point out tons of problems in top player gameplay against Steve in general. But you can't attribute all of the Steve results to underpreparation. Steve is hard to prepare for. Steve takes lots and lots of labbing. Learning the Steve matchup is kind of like learning to play a new character, and it's not just simple matchup checks like DI or jumping over TNT.

You have to go next-level with your Steve prep and really think in advance about what kind of block setups you might not have seen before and how they can change the details of the matchup.

Give it time, but also realize that it's a lot to learn. Summit will be a good opportunity for some of the top players to learn some counterplay.

 

[superjm]

The next time Onin stands on a single block, Maister is ready. He charges up-smash to hit past the falling Steve aerial or roll. But Onin's now realized that there's no risk to just falling, so Onin falls, expecting to tech the block if hit and just land if no hit. Maister up-smashes, and Onin grabs Maister and wins the stock, f-smashing the Game and Watch tech.

I zeroed in on this part of the match in particular cause it demonstrates the kind of situational awareness that you can only get through practice and experience. GnW's up smash is one of the best and safest anti airs in the game, a general low-risk option that GnW can just throw out willy nilly and even charge in the opponent's face because of its properties. It makes sense that in the moment, with all the experience Maister has in playing high level matches, that he figured that using his very safe and effective anti-air option to call out Onin's aerial approaches from block was a risk worth taking... except in that specific situation, it was the literal worst option he could have possibly chosen because Steve has a block over ledge behind him and a tether grab. Suddenly, using an option that in the vast majority of situations is completely safe or at least will only result in damage and a disadvantage led to losing the stock at 45%.

In another sense, it highlights Onin's own situational awareness which is downright scary at times. He has his own sloppy play and use of panic options that are to be expected from a player of his age and experience level but just seeing how quickly he recognizes when things aren't working and adjusts his coverage options to gain an advantage in a different way, and repeating this until he's gotten the upper hand, he's got something that the other prominent NA Steve mains just don't. Additionally, even considering his sometimes sloppy play the way he manages to keep his cool in a chaotic game state is a boon as well. It's easy to say in hindsight that Gluto in game 1 directly approaching Onin inside his corner cave from above was blatantly telegraphing his use of raw waft, but in that moment seeing what appears to be a golden opportunity to strike back and gain advantage in a match that you're pretty far behind in and knowing, even if just by instinct, that you must shield here or you will die is a heck of a call to make.

Maybe it all ends up being a fluke but at least for that one day he read the soul out of all of his opponents and it all worked out.

 

[NairWizard]

I zeroed in on this part of the match in particular cause it demonstrates the kind of situational awareness that you can only get through practice and experience. GnW's up smash is one of the best and safest anti airs in the game, a general low-risk option that GnW can just throw out willy nilly and even charge in the opponent's face because of its properties. It makes sense that in the moment, with all the experience Maister has in playing high level matches, that he figured that using his very safe and effective anti-air option to call out Onin's aerial approaches from block was a risk worth taking... except in that specific situation, it was the literal worst option he could have possibly chosen because Steve has a block over ledge behind him and a tether grab. Suddenly, using an option that in the vast majority of situations is completely safe or at least will only result in damage and a disadvantage led to losing the stock at 45%.

In another sense, it highlights Onin's own situational awareness which is downright scary at times. He has his own sloppy play and use of panic options that are to be expected from a player of his age and experience level but just seeing how quickly he recognizes when things aren't working and adjusts his coverage options to gain an advantage in a different way, and repeating this until he's gotten the upper hand, he's got something that the other prominent NA Steve mains just don't. Additionally, even considering his sometimes sloppy play the way he manages to keep his cool in a chaotic game state is a boon as well. It's easy to say in hindsight that Gluto in game 1 directly approaching Onin inside his corner cave from above was blatantly telegraphing his use of raw waft, but in that moment seeing what appears to be a golden opportunity to strike back and gain advantage in a match that you're pretty far behind in and knowing, even if just by instinct, that you must shield here or you will die is a heck of a call to make.

Maybe it all ends up being a fluke but at least for that one day he read the soul out of all of his opponents and it all worked out.

It's definitely not a fluke. This is a super complex issue that you can spend hours and hours analyzing, but in the end you'll find that even if it's hard to prepare for Steve, Onin is simultaneously really really good. And absolutely the strongest part of his play is his decision-making. Acola is much better at spacing and general neutral gameplan, but Onin makes the right call in clutch situations a lot. It's actually highly reminiscent of Mkleo from his Joker era.

So yes, for those who don't appreciate the nuance, part of it is "Steve can do this crazy block adaptation," but part of it is also "well, Onin has the awareness to use it."

It absolutely is both.

 

[ARISTOS]

A strong video detailing Steve and counterplay options was posted on Reddit yesterday - I wanted to focus in on the stages portion of the video (which starts at 5:14). Going over the stages 1-by-1:

1. Smashville: Probably the best stage versus Steve due to small size and the fact he mainly gets wood from the stage, limiting block options and forcing a lot of mining. This stage should/will probably always be banned by Steve's so you probably won't have the option of playing on it, but if it is open I'd for sure take the character here.
2. Town and City: Wood mining makes this stage strong as well - bigger size limits its ability to be a strong pick in every matchup, as slower characters will likely struggle to maintain pressure on Steve and the FD layout is a bad one against the character. Still though, much easier to deal with wood Steve versus stone or iron Steve.

In addition, both these stages use axe to mine, which limits utilt combos. In general, these stages will likely be autobanned.

In a given set these are the stages I'd play on:

1. Battlefield/Small Battlefield: Steve gets access to all materials here (better than high stone access) but in exchange he gets access to mining offstage/TNT ledgetrap/blocking teleport recoveries. I think especially on Battlefield, that tradeoff would be worth it for most characters, particularly if your character can go high to avoid both, since Steve will struggle to get to top platform.
2. Pokemon Stadium 2: Problematic because of stone mining which much more heavily limits block breaking/what can be done in neutral, especially given the size of the stage. In exchange though you avoid TNT traps/off stage mining. In my mind better than the rest, but still not great. The one caveat is that if you're confident in winning neutral, you can push Steve away, destroy crafting table, and force Steve to use 5 stone to build a new one.

I'd avoid these as much as possible

1. Hollow Bastion/Kalos: Steve mainly mines stone on these stages but also has the option of mining iron on certain spots, which gives the character more access to minecart/anvil which seems to me the worst possible choice - I think between the two Kalos makes more sense as a potential full camping strategy but I see no need to pick either
2. Final Destination: FD layout and the fact that shovel is used (which gives Steve use his full set of tools unbothered) to me makes this an autoban

 

[Frihetsanka]

Hmm hmm, he makes a lot of good points. I imagine one of three things will happen in 2023:
#1. People figure out counter-play to Steve and he turns out to not be as dominant as we think he is now.
#2. Steve gets banned.
#3. The game suffers, similar to Smash 4 with Bayonetta.

I do hope it's #1. Both #2 and #3 would be quite bad for the game and the community... I imagine plenty of players will work on developing Steve counter-play, so let's hope it'll be #1 rather than #2 or #3.

 

[NairWizard]

To get away from the Steve topic for a bit, Leo and Chag win doubles with Aegis and Palutena over Scend and Lui$.

Seems like the new best static team is Leo/x, heh. Aegis looks like a really strong doubles character, capable of both support and pressure.

 

[Sucumbio]

Down Smash Tier list (IN A VACUUM)

Ken/Ryu, Pit/DPit, D/Samus are all the same

Included Luma in this one because I felt like it

Usable tier not ordered pic.twitter.com/J5OFW04bNP

— ESAM (Stride Esports) (@imESAM) August 20, 2022

ESAM dsmash tiers

 

[NotLiquid]

While I can't say a ban is something I'd endorse, one of the main reasons why banning previous dominant Smash characters was a slippery slope waiting to happen was that things weren't ever limited to just one character. Banning Meta Knight would leave more universally derided characters like Ice Climbers left unchecked, and while Smash 4's Bayonetta problem may not have been offsetting Cloud's dominance to as equal of a fashion, Ultimate was already en route the moment Bayonetta truly reached critical mass (it's easy to forget that despite Bayonetta being universally agreed to be the best Smash 4 character now, she didn't even win her first supermajor until a year and a half after release).

If you want to go to bat for the idea of banning Steve, you at least have the benefit that he exists in his own vacuum now. There is no other character he exists to "protect" the meta from at present, he is his own island. He's not a exacerbation of a broken system, he's his own cause. And it's unlikely that a new game will be landing soon, or that there will be any patches left that can shield the game from his influence (as much as there probably should be because Steve doesn't just affect top competitive play, and Ultimate's evergreen sales ought to inspire a skeleton team to stick around in passing to encourage a healthier ongoing game state). Part of the reason I imagine the idea of banning Steve is so appealing to people right now of all times is because Ultimate was almost this close to coming out being the one Smash game balanced enough where no character creates its own orbit. That doesn't mean there aren't characters people dislike more than others (Sonic, Olimar, Min Min, etc.), but in this pantheon Steve has definitely shown a tendency so far to muck with that equilibrium a bit more than most.

Ultimate also doesn't even have the excuse anymore that banning a character compromises the optics of its value as a competitive fighter. Dragon Ball FighterZ just this year probably became the first modern fighting game to ever have a character banned from major tournaments with Lab Coat 21, because her pre-patch incarnation was just that overtuned. In that sort of way the Smash community still kind of languishes in terms of making committed hard-line decisions as much as the ideas are always loudly floating around in the ether.

You could make a compelling case that a Steve ban is unlikely to have that much of an adverse affect on the state of the game, it might even have a positive effect. The main hurdle is really just having to quantifiably prove the detriment he poses and whether or not counterplay is something that can adequately shut him out in the long term, and since the Smash community is generally slow to applying things either way, I don't blame some for believing it could get worse and that damage will be done before it gets better.

 

[Arthur97]

Is kind of interesting how quickly Kazuya talk fell off. Went from Steve and Kazuya are killing the game to Steve is killing the game. Will Steve eventually fall off too? No way to tell, but it does show how kneejerk reactions can happen.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Realistically, Kazuya was unlikely to ever really kill the game. We don't have much reason to believe he's a top 5 character, after all. The signs aren't there in the same way they are for Steve.

With that being said, there's not enough evidence to warrant a global Steve ban right now. The signs are there, and there's reason for concern, but I don't believe the game will die if we wait another six months or so before we consider a ban. Things need to get worse before a ban would be realistic.

I do hope the Smash leadership has the courage to do what is right when the time comes, regardless of what it is (ban vs no ban). Some people will be anti-ban regardless of results. Some people will be pro-ban even if things don't get worse. We've seen two Smash games struggle because the community wasn't willing to implement a ban when it was necessary (they say hindsight is 20-20 though). I ended up taking a fairly neutral position in Smash 4, essentially boiling down to "we need more data to ban Bayonetta". In retrospect I think that Bayonetta should've been banned in Smash 4, but since Ultimate was on the horizon people opted to just wait for Ultimate and abandon Smash 4.

So we have two games where characters should have been banned, but weren't. It's tempting to say "Let's not risk it, let's nip this one in the bud and ban Steve". However, I think it is better to wait for a bit to make sure a ban would be justified and have decent community support. This is why I think we should wait until 2023 to decide, and if the Steve situation gets worse we could reconsider the decision at a later date. Melee's wobbling ban is proof that you can ban something that has been around for years, and it may suck for Ice Climber players but the Melee community decided that a wobbling ban was a good idea (though a wobbling ban is not the same thing as a character ban).

One argument I don't want to see is that it's unfair to Steve players spending spending time on the character. I also don't want to see people argue that there are too many Steve players to ban the character. People knew the risk when they picked up Steve, at least if they did it in recent times. If Steve needs to be banned, then that's unfortunate for Steve players, but at least they knew the risk. Perhaps the case could be made that we should just ban Steve now in order to prevent more people learning Steve in vain, but I think it's better if we wait for a bit in order to get more data. Perhaps a Steve ban won't be needed after all? Still, if it turns out that we should ban Steve, then it's unfortunate for Steve players but it should still be done.

I think the absolute best case scenario is a special patch just to nerf Steve. We got one in Smash 4 for Bayonetta even when it seemed like we wouldn't get more patches. This seems somewhat unlikely, though. The second best case scenario is that counter-play develops and that Steve won't be the next Smash 4 Bayonetta, though given Steve's flexibility and strength I worry that he's only going to get stronger and that counter-play won't be enough to keep him reasonably contained. The third best scenario is that the community manages to ban him without too much controversy... Forth best is probably a messy ban? And the worst case scenario is that he's not banned and he more or less ruins this game. Such a shame too, since it seemed like this Smash game would be the first Smash game in recent years without a clear #1 broken character.

In summary: Too early for a ban, but if it turns out that he is the new Smash 4 Bayonetta he should be banned in 2023. I hope it won't come to that though.

 

[The_Bookworm]

The primary difference of Steve vs past Smash games is that we are barely getting any tournaments, let alone major tournaments, where it is multiple Steve players crowding top 8.
I mean look at Smash Con. We had a whole bunch of high profile Steve players participate, far more than any other character, but only 2 (arguably 3) made it to top 32, and only 1 made it to top 8. A lot of tournaments are like that where a Steve in top 8 is somewhat common, but it is usually only a single Steve player.

Btw, I highly doubt we would get an emergency patch for Steve. Unlike vanilla Bayo who was clearly overtuned and thus was addressed 3-4 months after her release, players are only now seeing how strong Steve is almost 2 years after he came out, and almost a year after the patch cycle ended. For the longest time, Steve wasn't even considered anywhere close to top tier. It is only until 2022 where the trend started to occur.

I highly doubt it is going to get to the point where Steve would need to be banned at all. In my eyes, he is simply a strong character in the vast sea of other strong characters. The main issue with Steve is that he is strong while not being very interesting to watch for the common audience. Unlike the past top tiers, they are a lot of room for improvement on counterplay and the character itself has clear weaknesses. If he didn't, the character would've been considered top tier right from the get-go.

His current trend of strength is simply one of many trends that Ultimate has endured. Remember when Aegis was projected to be the bringer of all chaos to the game during the late 2021 meta? Remember when Joker in the hands of MkLeo was untouchable and people demanded for Joker nerfs?

One argument I don't want to see is that it's unfair to Steve players spending spending time on the character. I also don't want to see people argue that there are too many Steve players to ban the character. People knew the risk when they picked up Steve, at least if they did it in recent times. If Steve needs to be banned, then that's unfortunate for Steve players, but at least they knew the risk. Perhaps the case could be made that we should just ban Steve now in order to prevent more people learning Steve in vain, but I think it's better if we wait for a bit in order to get more data. Perhaps a Steve ban won't be needed after all? Still, if it turns out that we should ban Steve, then it's unfortunate for Steve players but it should still be done.

The unique issue with Steve in particular is that pretty much all of top Steve players have mained him since he was first released in 2020 or early in 2021 during the online era, aka the time era long before he was considered top tier. As a matter of fact, it is thanks to their efforts that they are able to push Steve to where he is now. Steve players are some of the largest collection of lab monsters in the community, which makes sense given the nature of the character.

Come to think of it, I don't think there are much of any top players who actually swapped over to Steve. DM is the only player that comes to mind, but he also mains Aegis and Pikachu. Steve players kinda exist in their own little cocoon.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I am not sure why Kazuya was even considered part of the bringer of chaos group. The character's solo tournament success at high level isn't anything spectacular.
The character's main source of high level results is from Riddles and Tea, the former of which co-mains him with Terry and oftentimes uses Terry more, and the latter only uses him as a secondary for specific matchups (or to troll lol).

The character is more popular in low to mid level play, especially in low level play, emphasis on why he has so much points in OrionRank, but that doesn't really indicate too much of what people are saying about the character.
It is arguable if the character is even top tier at all, given his polarizing weaknesses and the above-mentioned okay-ish solo success.

However, all of the FGC characters is currently really enjoying the current meta of Ultimate. Terry is getting amazing results thanks to Riddles, Kazuya is getting a large amount of low-to-mid level success, and Ryu is enjoying great success of players like Asimo and Ikan. Ken... kinda just exist right now, but he still has a good sizable playerbase.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

With that being said, I grew weary of the Steve talk. We are kinda running around in circles and we don't have the data or meta adaptation to prove anything.

Instead, I want to talk about the fact that we are kind of in a weird meta where having amazing buttons can counterbalance mobility issues with much greater ease.

We see that with Steve's ascension in the meta in 2022, we see that with how successful the FGC characters are now, and we see that with the large rise of Incineroar. A lot of the DLC characters are built with low mobility in mind to counterbalance their strengths, and yet we see them being successful regardless of this usually character ruining weakness.

I think it largely has to do with the way Ultimate's general gameplay engine is leaning towards. Despite the slow mobility of the above mentioned characters, not only they have some way to threaten at range, but Ultimate's engine generally encourages more aggressive play.
Could players do a better job playing more defensively and abuse their higher mobility more? Certainty.
Is that what they are doing now? Not as much as they should tbh.

 

[Frihetsanka]

The primary difference of Steve vs past Smash games is that we are barely getting any tournaments, let alone major tournaments, where it is multiple Steve players crowding top 8.

This was also the case in Smash 4 with Bayonetta for quite some time. Besides, it doesn't have to get as bad as Smash 4 Bayonetta in order to warrant a ban. (Edit: I thought about it more and looked into how fighting games tend to handle bans and even Smash 4 Bayonetta might not have been banworthy. End of edit) Right now it seems premature to ban him but it might be different in 2023. Several top players seem to be leaning towards the possibility of a ban in the future (like Dabuz and PinkFresh).

Come to think of it, I don't think there are much of any top players who actually swapped over to Steve. DM is the only player that comes to mind, but he also mains Aegis and Pikachu. Steve players kinda exist in their own little cocoon.

Salem is probably the most notable, but he got banned. We should keep in mind though that more top players may switch to Steve if Steve really is the uncontested #1 character. I think it's also fairly notable that Steve players are coming out of basically nowhere and getting amazing results (to the point where Steve is #1 on OrionStats despite not having many veterans playing him) (Edit: I've learned more about these players and I think this is a bad point and discrediting them. My bad. End of edit) This indicates that Steve is OP and/or that people really don't know the matchup. The possibility that people don't know the matchup is one of the reasons why I think it'd be too early to ban him in 2022.

Remember when Aegis was projected to be the bringer of all chaos to the game during the late 2021 meta? Remember when Joker in the hands of MkLeo was untouchable and people demanded for Joker nerfs?

I never believed either of those were nearly as strong as some people believed them to be, but your point is weakened by the fact that both did get nerfed.

A lot of the DLC characters are built with low mobility in mind to counterbalance their strengths, and yet we see them being successful regardless of this usually character ruining weakness.

I feel like people tend to overvalue mobility to some extent. People called Smash 4 Corrin, a top/high tier, "mid tier" for quite some time because of her "poor mobility". Mobility is good to have but it's not quite as important as people seem to think.

 

[Arthur97]

Honestly a lot of the Kazuya doom saying might have been a mask for he may be one of the most salt inducing fighters to go up against as who likes losing stocks ludicrously early to Kazuya stuff? I imagine its easy to get frustrated leading the whole game only to die from one or two hits.

Also, there's a reason people don't play more defensively. Well, probably several, but one is that the community will hate on you if you do play "too" defensively. Just look how they treated poor Sonix.

 

[NairWizard]

Peanut vs. Leo went last hit game 3. That was really close.

I'm eternally confused by Leo's Aegis. It seems simultaneously like it should be really strong and and also like it's just terrible?

It's like the Swap mechanic, but IRL.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Peanut vs. Leo went last hit game 3. That was really close.

I'm eternally confused by Leo's Aegis. It seems simultaneously like it should be really strong and and also like it's just terrible?

It's like the Swap mechanic, but IRL.

That reminds me of Cosmos's Aegis tbh, sometimes he'll be playing out of his mind (SWT or Glitch Infinite for example), and then he'll start randomly throwing out smash attacks or SD causing him to lose the set and then Cosmos would get a really bad placing.

 

[Sucumbio]

So any predictions for Rise? Leo gonna stick to Aegis or maybe just break out Joker and run with it? Will Onin sweep through top 64 and dominate again? Time will tell!

 

[Rizen]

Here's my thoughts: is still number one. They've been winning most tournaments consistently since their release. MKLeo, Spargo, Shuton, Cosmos and Acola (Sumabato SP 29 1. acola ) have all won tournaments with them and now Tweek is playing them too. With MKLeo recently winning Smash Factor 9 and COLOSSEL 2022. The snowball of their dominance is huge. But people will still doubt them no matter what they do.
The big thing has over them is that previously unknown players like Onin and Acola are popping up and beating the best players in the world. Some might say it's because the character is broken, others might say it's MU inexperience on the part of the pros and that you can't fight steve like other characters. It's probably a bit of both. Steve is extremely good and requires special counterplay which I think people will get better at. You have to keep shielding minecart (with steve in it) and anvil until the move completely passes through you and not just the first part. I see a lot of pros get hit by their continuous hitboxes. Either way, Steve has proven through several victories not to be an outlier or fluke.

Although I think Aegis is better I can see the case for Steve being number 1. However I never said to ban either of them, even when Aegis had 3 players in the top 8 of a supermajor. I've compared Aegis to SSB4 Bayo in the past and along with Steve that still holds true but that wasn't intended as a point to ban them. I do think nerfs would help but even without them Ultimate is balanced enough to not need to ban any characters. Most characters don't have worse MUs than -2s, even really bad ones like Ganon only have a few. In previous games like Brawl there were -3 and -4 MUs that were realistically unwinnable if the favored character played right. I think counterpick characters are important in Ultimate. I main YL but have Wolf for the Aegis MU. IMO Joker's still very strong vs anyone. Characters with big disjoints like Sephiroth can give Steve trouble.

 

[NairWizard]

So any predictions for Rise? Leo gonna stick to Aegis or maybe just break out Joker and run with it? Will Onin sweep through top 64 and dominate again? Time will tell!

Really hard to make any prediction with how volatile Leo's Aegis can be. It'll either completely sweep or it'll lose before it even reaches Onin (to KirbyKid somehow, Myran, or Cosmos, who was going pretty even with Leo's Aegis in friendlies); Onin himself could lose to Zomba, Chag, Sisqui, or Ned.

You know what, I feel bold, I'm going to predict Cosmos vs. Onin winners finals. Cosmos somehow wins, Onin gets the runback and wins grands.

 

[The_Bookworm]

You know what, I feel bold, I'm going to predict Cosmos vs. Onin winners finals. Cosmos somehow wins, Onin gets the runback and wins grands.

Cosmos 1-3 ATATA
That prediction was shot down pretty quickly. Cosmos doesn't really have the best track record vs Ness, so I wish I could be more surprised than I am now.

 

[NairWizard]

What in the world, how do you lose to Ness with Aegis? This is online but I have an almost perfect record vs Scend/Bestness in the matchup, and I’m nowhere near the level of Cosmos. Edit: watched the set, impressive play on ATATA’s side. Oh well, goodbye prediction.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Onin 1-3 Lui$
Now that prediction is WAY off. If Onin aims to win the whole thing now, it has to be one heck of a run to do so.
All three of the top Steves that participated are now in the loser's bracket.

jaredisking1 3-2 BassMage
Despite BassMage being an amazing player in himself, Shulk vs Puff is an incredibly rough matchup for Puff.

Atomic 3-1 BigBoss
Don't know who Atomic plays. I think it is R.O.B. the last time I checked SmashWiki, but I may be wrong about that. He now confronts MkLeo.

Chag 2-3 SHADIC
SHADIC had to make one heck of a comeback to overcome Chag.


Edit: yonni 0-3 Niko (out at 33rd)
Nvm, now only two remain.

Ravenking 2-3 z3 (out at 33rd)

Chag 0-3 Rocke (out at 33rd)
Rocke played great, but Chag looks so out of it after that SHADIC set.

Niko (either or ) 3-2 Cosmos (out at 25th)
Sometimes this kind of thing happens to Cosmos. He is a top player only when he feels like it. ¯\(ツ)/¯

 

[NairWizard]

Interesting, glad to be wrong since it cuts the Steve ban discourse a lot. Onin did the thing where he minecarts a bunch in neutral but Palutena had an easy answer to that in b-air and Onin didn’t adjust. Minecart only looks broken if people keep getting hit by it for no reason.

 

[Arthur97]

Wow, and just like that the blocky fiend takes a hit and even the Aegis sisters. May just be online, but that's a positive showing for the health of the meta game.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Here's my thoughts: is still number one.

ESAM recently said that he thinks Aegis might be top 5 at best. While I don't agree I also don't think they're quite as dominant as some people seem to think. Most likely top 3, decent chance for #2, I don't think they're too close to Steve though. More and more top players seem to consider Steve the uncontested #1. The results seem to back it up, but there is the caveat that players lack MU experience. Well, on the other hand, Steve is a fairly deep character so as more time passes won't Steve players also get better? I wonder if it's another case of "just SDI" vs Bayonetta in Smash 4, something that was partly true but still wasn't enough to stop her from being the #1 by far.

I wonder if MkLeo and Tweek will keep playing Aegis in the long run? I'm not convinced either of them will stick to Aegis, as an Aegis main myself (at the time of writing this post, at least) I enjoy seeing top level Aegis players, but both of them seem like they might prefer other characters in the long run (MkLeo Joker, Diddy/Wario/PT Tweek). We'll see, I suppose.

Part of me wants to see Dabuz Steve.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Top 8

Winner's
MkLeo vs jaredisking1
Ned vs Zomba

Loser's
Onin vs Anathema
Sisqui vs Lui$


Not many huge names here, but a very fascinating top 8 regardless.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

2 ROB's in top 8 of a major. I think that's the first time in a while that's happened. It's typically just Zomba. Also there's a Sephiroth in top 8 that's not KEN or Tweek and a Shulk in top 8 that's not Kome.