Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Kiligar]

So I missed a discussion on best swordies. In my opinion the order of best swordies goes like this:
>>>>>>>
As I’ve said before I believe Roy to be the worst swordie. I who thought months ago that he was a top tier sword character. It’s after using him extensively that I realized how overrated he is. Just because he’s fast and can kill early doesn’t mean he’s good otherwise would be good characters. Out of everyone in this list Roy has the worst hit boxes for spacing. Which kind of defeats the point of being a swordie as a character like Mario or Squirtle can button mash better than you. You still do have better hitboxes than them,but it’s not as significant, at low percent you are minus on hit with your tippers and at high percent they don’t kill. The people who talk about “but Roy tippers can set up into kills” don’t realize how niche this is. It’s not a consistent thing, the only tipper which can really do that at certain very high percent is sour up air. Aside from that the rest just knock em away. So sour spots are a bad thing for consistency, overall Chrom’s sword is just better, there is no matchup where you prefer Roy’s sword. If Chrom had Roy’s sword he’d be a significantly worse character, and despite having a worse recovery than Roy he’s better due to having no sourspots.

There are problems which Roy and Chrom share, but Roy’s sword exacerbates them. The neutral can be a little strange against a reactive shield happy opponent, as forward air takes quite some time to come out. With Chrom you can space with the tipper more effectively at lower percent and still lead up into things whereas it isn’t the case with Roy. The entire kit of Chroy is almost universally focused on anti airing, as in their rising aerials aren’t very safe on shield, whereas their grounded moves bar down tilt seem to be more effective against aerial opponents. Particularly this is the case with Roy who has a lot easier time landing sweet spot jab and up tilt on aerial opponents. However Roy’s ftilt is pretty difficult to sweet spot on aerial opponent, whereas Chrom’s is excellent at doing so and one of the best f tilts in the game in general. Basically what this all illustrates is that Chroy have a problem in that they depend on the opponent jumping for their neutral to work well, but this problem is many times worse for Roy.

Small characters exacerbate this issue since when they don’t jump none of Chroy’s rising aerials hit. Chrom has an easier time making up for this by spacing them out with falling aerials but Roy can’t effectively space. Which is part of the reason why Roy loses so hard to small characters.

Roy’s combos are average in terms of damage. Of course if you happen to line up that training room twitter combo of falling up air to back air to falling up air to forward air to up b it looks cool and deals plenty of damage, but most of the time your best strings come from that unsafe rising nair which leads into a couple fairs at low percent. The combo window isn’t huge either. Lucina who’s known for not having as good combo potential as Chroy can do similar things off of falling up air at low percent. The best Roy gets at mid percents is falling up air back air and up air, land up air with platform help. Chrom’s combo damage is better due to his up special being a massive damage combo finisher, as well as his combo windows being a bit larger due to his weaker aerials and no sour spots. Roy’s combo damage is by no means bad but it’s far from exceptional and isn’t consistent. Compare this to characters like Mario, Young Link, Peach who have amazing combo damage on top of better recoveries and neutrals. Yes, there are characters without outstanding combos such as Wolf, Cloud and Joker, but their superior neutrals (access to projectiles help) and mobility mean they can win neutral more often and keep leads better. Roy’s average combos, high fast fall speed, poor recovery, lack of projectiles and commital neutral means he ismore prone to being reversals than just about any character near his viability, and any other swordie bar Chrom. However at least Chrom is consistent when it comes tine

Due to Chroy’s low air accel once they choose a direction they have to commit. Wave bounce side special can help a bit but it’s still not the same as someone like Wolf or Mario who can weave in or out. This can make Chroy aerials pretty predictable. Marcina could have a similar problem as their air accel isn’t the best, but it’s still significantly better and alongside their slower fall speed and really fast forward air gives much more opportunity to mix up aerial timings. Basically Chroy have issues with being parried just like any other swordie, but Roy has it worst of all since he’s usually point blank when the parry occurs.

The recovery isn’t that great, better than Chrom’s in most cases (Chrom’s may actually be better against Greninja due to how soaring slash interacts with hydro pump) but still it’s not very good. No armor and a bad time clipping ledge, (not talking about the overshoot that newer players do but even when you do it right it’s easier to get two framed as Roy then say Lucina or Corrin). Not much to elaborate on here, this recovery is a part of his design but doesn’t make up for the worse sword.

The up special is very poor Oos against shirt characters in particular, if you search up the hitbox you’ll see it disappears on the second frame after it comes out on frame 9. Furthermore it has awful horizontal range. This allows small characters to crouch underneath it at times, as there won’t be any multi hit which can hit them at a later time unlike tall characters. This also means the move is easy to spot dodge for most characters, giving it no advantage over Chrom’s in that aspect. Given that Roy already struggles against small characters, being able to do essentially nothing Oos against them makes the matchups near impossible against a competent player. Whereas Chrom’s has a massive horizontal hitbox which means the opponent isn’t accidentally escaping.

Roy’s matchup chart is just too poor for him to be one of the best swordies. Every other swordie I listed has a better matchup chart. His neutral is worse than every other swordie,and in general it’s a bottom 20 neutral. His approach is pretty poor, just disguised by his speed. Whereas Chrom has a top 15 neutral which is how much difference their swords make. Roy’s advantage state is potentially the worst out of all the swordies on this list despite having decent combos, due to how his sour spots mess up his juggling. Players tend to forget how oppressive the juggling of these swordies can be with their massive disjointed up airs and Roy’s sour spot really screws that up. Maybe only Ike is worse in the advantage state due to his slow speed and frame data. His disadvantage state is down at the bottom of the list with Chrom, due to their high fast fall speed and awful recoveries. Marcina get juggled hard but their recoveries aremuch better.

Roy is still a decent character but his weaknesses are understated and his strengths are overstated. Every other swordie in this list does better in every matchup bar Corrin, Marth and Ike. Corrin and Ike struggle more than Roy against ZSS and Sonic but do better in every other matchup. Marth does marginally worse against much of the cast than Roy but does significantly better against every short character. Marth is close to Roy’s level but just barely is better. Which is why Roy is the worst sword characterz

 

[FruitLoop]

This may be worth discussing.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

He spent 3+ hours going through the placings of everyone, I watched a decent chunk of it and most of what he was saying regarding D3s matchups seemed pretty reasonable. He goes pretty indepth on some characters, especially on some of the more controversial placings like Snake, Palu, and Pikachu.

This is certainly better than Peli's AWFUL matchup chart for DDD (DDD Falco even, seriously?) but even after looking through Atomsk some of his reasonings seem a BIT off.

Obviously I think some of his char placements are awfully anecdotal inclulding the ones that I agree with (Eventhough Lucas DDD is possibly even, him talking about how it just isn't that bad because he always beats WebbJP seems incredibly weird as a reason due to the fact that me and Webb happen to know eachother and Webb points out how much he doesn't really understand the matchup) and for quite a few matchups that he's talking about it feels way too theorycrafted to the point where it's using hypotheticals of the opponent doing the same thing.

He talks about how Pika mains do the same stuff when killing while being incredibly linear in general past 80 meaning that as long as you dont punish anything Pika does with your shield to avoid nair confirms you should be alright and you can punish bad tjolt placings with fair/bair by extending it (I actually used that knowledge awhile back to beat ESAM in sub games 3-1 some time ago lol). While I certainly get why he personally believes that the mu gets better due to this, he underestimates the strengths of so many characters in the process. Pika being safe on everything he does is still INCREDIBLY commanding in the matchup and the matchup is theoretically -1 IF the pika main is doing the same things from what Atomsk seems to imply. He rarely factors in the fact that the opponent is a lot more variable than that at the highest levels of play and he fails to mention the opponents ability to tomahawk/retreat/have a failsafe/etc. D3 in shield is inherently limited and usually the opponent knows when they can get shield grabbed or not at different spacing. Even if you could technically argue that DDD's better shield grab range compared to most of the cast makes his shieldgrab threat range more lenient vs more moves the increased startup and the high commitment of shieldgrab on a char that REALLY wants to never die or get hard punished is an issue.

I agree with the reasoning for some of the characters he does and I think he's very knowledgable on the character, but I feel like what he prioritizes on matchup spreads for D3 seems way too theoretical in a situation with the requisites of the DDD player always being able to outplay the opponent. While I get that since most of the matchups that he explains are primarily losing you have to outplay the opponent regardless to win, it just feels way too muddy given that a lot of his explanations feel either too broad where he's underselling the other character's strengths and different counterplay (Pika) or he talks way too much on very specific interactions without really getting into a bigger picture (Palutena).

It's not a super inaccurate mu spread despite my noticeable issues with it, but I actually do take some issues with what Atomsk said in the stream even if I thoroughly admired how he tried to walk through each matchup and give tips for each matchup. I didn't view the Snake explanation since apparently that's a pretty hot take and while I think the matchup is only even I can probably buy into whatever he's saying.

 

[SwagGuy99]

There was an offline Japanese invitational(?) yesterday that ran round robin format. These are the results:

関西上位総当たり #2
Bracket: https://t.co/8514wk68pB
Archive: https://t.co/BaMByRcecB pic.twitter.com/3TbcJpv0ne

— リザルト画像bot (@ssbspResults) November 7, 2020

There's a link to the bracket and the VOD in the tweet if anyone is curious. Tea won the event overall, but still got beat 2/0 by both Tsumusuto and Lunamado and went 1/2 against Atelier. The VOD is 5 hours, but if you want some offline footage of any of the characters these players used in bracket, it's probably worth watching.

Edit: I just pulled up the Tsumusuto vs Tea game because I wanted to see how Tsumusuto managed to 2/0 Tea and Tea switched to Fox game 2 and got kind of destroyed, which was not what I was really expecting.

 

[Frihetsanka]

#クロブラ23
今回の優勝はLy選手(@Ly_ssb)でした！おめでとうございます！

1st Ly
2nd MASA
3rd ひぐさき

■トーナメントhttps://t.co/G2KJqRJ6wA

■プレイリストhttps://t.co/xSMXtONdzS

(続く) pic.twitter.com/mfEWWsBNHd

— クロブラ/神奈川スマブラ対戦会クロブラ (@Kurobra_SSB) November 8, 2020

Not the most stacked tournament but hey, solo Corrin results, I'll take it. Just gotta hope Cosmos sticks with Corrin (he hasn't streamed much lately) and would be nice if someone else picks her up as well (it's not looking too promising on that front though).

 

[SwagGuy99]

Raito has started uploading a 9.0.1 tier list to his Youtube channel.

D TIER



E TIER



Assuming this list is ordered, K. Rool still seems to be viewed very poorly by Raito, Mac and Doc seem to be viewed a bit more positively than in America, and Ike and Falco both seem really low compared to where I think most American players would put them on their tier lists.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Raito has started uploading a 9.0.1 tier list to his Youtube channel.

D TIER



E TIER

Ike that low?
Boy, this is already going to be an interesting list. I feel like the character got better because he's less one dimensional now, not worse.

 

[Wigglerman]

This is certainly better than Peli's AWFUL matchup chart for DDD (DDD Falco even, seriously?) but even after looking through Atomsk some of his reasonings seem a BIT off.

Obviously I think some of his char placements are awfully anecdotal inclulding the ones that I agree with (Eventhough Lucas DDD is possibly even, him talking about how it just isn't that bad because he always beats WebbJP seems incredibly weird as a reason due to the fact that me and Webb happen to know eachother and Webb points out how much he doesn't really understand the matchup) and for quite a few matchups that he's talking about it feels way too theorycrafted to the point where it's using hypotheticals of the opponent doing the same thing.

He talks about how Pika mains do the same stuff when killing while being incredibly linear in general past 80 meaning that as long as you dont punish anything Pika does with your shield to avoid nair confirms you should be alright and you can punish bad tjolt placings with fair/bair by extending it (I actually used that knowledge awhile back to beat ESAM in sub games 3-1 some time ago lol). While I certainly get why he personally believes that the mu gets better due to this, he underestimates the strengths of so many characters in the process. Pika being safe on everything he does is still INCREDIBLY commanding in the matchup and the matchup is theoretically -1 IF the pika main is doing the same things from what Atomsk seems to imply. He rarely factors in the fact that the opponent is a lot more variable than that at the highest levels of play and he fails to mention the opponents ability to tomahawk/retreat/have a failsafe/etc. D3 in shield is inherently limited and usually the opponent knows when they can get shield grabbed or not at different spacing. Even if you could technically argue that DDD's better shield grab range compared to most of the cast makes his shieldgrab threat range more lenient vs more moves the increased startup and the high commitment of shieldgrab on a char that REALLY wants to never die or get hard punished is an issue.

I agree with the reasoning for some of the characters he does and I think he's very knowledgable on the character, but I feel like what he prioritizes on matchup spreads for D3 seems way too theoretical in a situation with the requisites of the DDD player always being able to outplay the opponent. While I get that since most of the matchups that he explains are primarily losing you have to outplay the opponent regardless to win, it just feels way too muddy given that a lot of his explanations feel either too broad where he's underselling the other character's strengths and different counterplay (Pika) or he talks way too much on very specific interactions without really getting into a bigger picture (Palutena).

It's not a super inaccurate mu spread despite my noticeable issues with it, but I actually do take some issues with what Atomsk said in the stream even if I thoroughly admired how he tried to walk through each matchup and give tips for each matchup. I didn't view the Snake explanation since apparently that's a pretty hot take and while I think the matchup is only even I can probably buy into whatever he's saying.

I legit can't understand how he thinks Pac-man is even (Without watching the video. Might do that tonight). What can DDD actually do to Pac-man? Gordo is stuffed by every projectile Pac-man has, Pac has legit pressure that DDD can't really brute force his way out of and even though he may have longer reach with his hammer...Pac-man just has way better frame data and can often beat out those options (Or just bait them). DDD is juggle fodder for Pac-man and his big body makes him exceptionally easy to tangle up in galaga set ups. DDD just sort of has to deal with the bullying, can't counter zone and will struggle to approach even from the air.

Really, the only thing that seems to be in DDD's favor is his weight, as Pac-man can arguably struggle to lock a kill at times but I still feel isn't enough to push the match up to even.

 

[SwagGuy99]

Ike that low?
Boy, this is already going to be an interesting list. I feel like the character got better because he's less one dimensional now, not worse.

I agree. I think Ike is a very good character now. His changes have made him more explosive in my opinion and despite the fact that he's simple, he still is really good at the things he does best: hitting really hard, punishing mistakes, and outranging most of the cast with his giant sword.

Edit:

I legit can't understand how he thinks Pac-man is even (Without watching the video. Might do that tonight). What can DDD actually do to Pac-man? Gordo is stuffed by every projectile Pac-man has, Pac has legit pressure that DDD can't really brute force his way out of and even though he may have longer reach with his hammer...Pac-man just has way better frame data and can often beat out those options (Or just bait them). DDD is juggle fodder for Pac-man and his big body makes him exceptionally easy to tangle up in galaga set ups. DDD just sort of has to deal with the bullying, can't counter zone and will struggle to approach even from the air.

Really, the only thing that seems to be in DDD's favor is his weight, as Pac-man can arguably struggle to lock a kill at times but I still feel isn't enough to push the match up to even.

Sinji had DDD as even in his last matchup chart as well (from late 2019), he probably explains it better than I could (since he actually plays Pac-Man) in the VOD he has for it.

 

[The_Bookworm]

I agree. I think Ike is a very good character now. His changes have made him more explosive in my opinion and despite the fact that he's simple, he still is really good at the things he does best: hitting really hard, punishing mistakes, and outranging most of the cast with his giant sword.

Ike's low placement here is very strange in our eyes.
But remember: Ike isn't really a prevalent character in Japan. There are a few notable Ike players there, but they haven't really made much of an impact there, at least in comparison to Ike in other regions.

Then again, even back in SSB4, Raito isn't a stranger to having some strange opinions. He notably painted SSB4 Ike as a bottom 5 character in his final SSB4 tier list.

 

[SwagGuy99]

He notably painted SSB4 Ike as a bottom 5 character in his final SSB4 tier list.

Ike was pretty mediocre in Smash 4, but bottom 5 seems low. That's weird.

and were missing from Raito's low tier section, which seems kind of strange, as it seems like they are still near universally considered low tiers by most players. I'm curious to see where exactly he has them.

 

[The_Bookworm]

and were missing from Raito's low tier section, which seems kind of strange, as it seems like they are still near universally considered low tiers by most players. I'm curious to see where exactly he has them.

I have seen opinions of Kirby rise up dramatically across the globe. I am seeing the character being placed more often in the mid tiers. In Japan, Ferretkuma's performance with the character definitely influences this. The character has received 4 patches worth of significant buffs, and has achieved some respectable success thanks to them, so it is definitely not out of the question. The character has definitely come far from the bottom tier lifer he was at launch.

As for DK, Japan in general has a higher opinion on the character. This has been recently been supported with HIKARU recently picking up the character again, and doing some great stuff with the character as of right now.

 

[SKX31]

Raito has started uploading a 9.0.1 tier list to his Youtube channel.

D TIER



E TIER

But remember: Ike isn't really a prevalent character in Japan. There are a few notable Ike players there, but they haven't really made much of an impact there, at least in comparison to Ike in other regions.

Besides agreeing that this list is going to be very interesting: I mean, Rool still Botton 5 and Falco Bottom 10? If I may, does the Japanese scene lack dedicated mains for those two like KirbyKid and Larry Lurr?

 

[blackghost]

Think some people use the term "good character" way too loosely. Ike is probably not bottom 5 but he's by no means a good character. He's average at best.

 

[Rocketjay8]

Think some people use the term "good character" way too loosely. Ike is probably not bottom 5 but he's by no means a good character. He's average at best.

Still better than his smash 4 incarnations. Man, he was so lame in that game.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Kinda weird to see characters like Falco, Ike and Zelda placed in bottom 10, especially considering they are placed below Kirby for example.
Those are very decent mid-tier characters prior to their buffs and all three received very notable buffs (although maybe not Ike, depending on who you ask).

I've lost interest in tier-lists over the time as most players have a really strange understanding of what a tier-list should be (tournament viability). Maybe this changes once offline tournaments come back and we get "real" results again.

 

[Wigglerman]

The tier lists so far have, as said, been quite sporadic. Plus it doesn't seem to help that the pros are struggling to come to a coherent consensus either, further muddling things. Going to be a long time before a somewhat agreed upon list becomes a thing. Probably not for a couple years AFTER DLC finishes, thus patches/balances/tweaks. We in it for the long haul.

Edit: I also foresee, if Ultimate's player base remains avid, that this tier list may remain ever shifting. With so many characters and not enough people repping every member, the meta could shift dramatically over time as other characters eventually get explored to their full potential after having been dismissed away as 'bad' or 'merely average'.

 

[Minix0]

The tier lists so far have, as said, been quite sporadic. Plus it doesn't seem to help that the pros are struggling to come to a coherent consensus either, further muddling things. Going to be a long time before a somewhat agreed upon list becomes a thing. Probably not for a couple years AFTER DLC finishes, thus patches/balances/tweaks. We in it for the long haul.

Edit: I also foresee, if Ultimate's player base remains avid, that this tier list may remain ever shifting. With so many characters and not enough people repping every member, the meta could shift dramatically over time as other characters eventually get explored to their full potential after having been dismissed away as 'bad' or 'merely average'.

Smash 4 took a long time to get a consensus as well. I think it's just a matter of waiting until there's no more DLC and patches.

 

[Wigglerman]

Smash 4 took a long time to get a consensus as well. I think it's just a matter of waiting until there's no more DLC and patches.

Ultimate is, frankly, the game I would love to see years and years of data compiled and analyzed to get spreads like we see for SF2 and such, a near undeniable match up list of sorts. Though such a feat, for a roster this size, seems impossible. Especially when the gap between 'good' and 'great' in Ultimate is quite small.

 

[Gleam]

There has always been a strong divide among perception when it comes to the United States, Europe, Japan, etc.

Something that I've taken great notice when it comes to Japanese perception in the past is that, they are often a lot more optimistic on character even if their overall placement of the character in terms of # rank, isn't too different from the rest of the world. It wasn't rare to see Bottom 5, but also still in C-Rank (which I assume is still Mid Tier) despite that.


In the end, certain characters debated, I don't think there is often that much of a difference in terms of where a character is placed, so much as it is the optimism that some players/regions have.

Gluttony, who made his 9.01 list early, clearly had far more faith in putting her near High Tier compared to say Raito here who has her bottom 10.

I'd argue are also more optimistically treated in Japan and parts of Europe, than they are in the United States.

 

[SwagGuy99]

SNIP

I've noticed this trend for a while, and the character's that are usually held in higher/lower regard in different regions is usually somewhat consistent across players from other regions. There are some trends that I've noticed and while these opinions aren't completely consistent across all players, generally there are some things that you'll see look different from region to region.

• Usually held in higher regard by American players:
• Usually held in higher regard by European players:
• Usually held in higher regard by Japanese players:
• Usually held in noticeably lower regard by Japanese players compared to either Europe or the US:
• Usually held in noticeably lower regard by US players compared to Europe or Japan:

 

[StrangeKitten]

No way is Ike that low. He has some of the best range and kill power in the entire game! Of course, that's not enough to make him the best or anything. He's still slow with a recovery that, while it will usually get the job done, isn't the best and can lead to doom on occasion. I can see middle of mid tier if one is pessimistic about Ike, but low tier? Definitely not in my opinion.

 

[williamsga555]

Sinji had DDD as even in his last matchup chart as well (from late 2019), he probably explains it better than I could (since he actually plays Pac-Man) in the VOD he has for it.

(it's at 23:15 for anyone curious)
The summary of Sinji's claims for even revolve around Inhale's ability to reflect in Ultimate. While he admits that it's reactable enough to avoid getting hit by anything reflected, he says that it's existence keeps the matchup more honest and forces Pac-Man to box a little more.

Frankly, I don't have nearly enough personal experience in the matchup to comment much on it, but I don't find it too terribly far-fetched. I think this list was overplaying the impact of Inhale's reflect capabilities, but I really don't see this as being a particularly awful matchup for D3. Pac-Man's zoning shouldn't be overly oppressive against D3 due to the latter's vertical mobility + inhale mixups, and he will rely on Bell even moreso than usual to seal a stock (since D3 naturally keeps out of raw f-smash range, survives apple to stupid percents, and likely isn't getting gimped off-stage). Obviously he'll blow up D3 percentage-wise off of any stray opening, but then what?

D3 meanwhile can stuff typical fair jump-ins with either a callout fair/bair of his own or uptilt, and has the means to force Pac-Man into low recoveries reliably since he can threaten the startup of Pac's side-b with fair/bair/gordo toss through most of the match. Low recovery gives D3 more time to setup his ledge game, which is, of course, exactly what he wants.

...but I feel like I'm reaching a bit. My personal feeling is that Pac wins it, but I'm just saying I wouldn't consider it super outlandish to nudge it toward even.

 

[FruitLoop]

(it's at 23:15 for anyone curious)
The summary of Sinji's claims for even revolve around Inhale's ability to reflect in Ultimate. While he admits that it's reactable enough to avoid getting hit by anything reflected, he says that it's existence keeps the matchup more honest and forces Pac-Man to box a little more.

Frankly, I don't have nearly enough personal experience in the matchup to comment much on it, but I don't find it too terribly far-fetched. I think this list was overplaying the impact of Inhale's reflect capabilities, but I really don't see this as being a particularly awful matchup for D3. Pac-Man's zoning shouldn't be overly oppressive against D3 due to the latter's vertical mobility + inhale mixups, and he will rely on Bell even moreso than usual to seal a stock (since D3 naturally keeps out of raw f-smash range, survives apple to stupid percents, and likely isn't getting gimped off-stage). Obviously he'll blow up D3 percentage-wise off of any stray opening, but then what?

D3 meanwhile can stuff typical fair jump-ins with either a callout fair/bair of his own or uptilt, and has the means to force Pac-Man into low recoveries reliably since he can threaten the startup of Pac's side-b with fair/bair/gordo toss through most of the match. Low recovery gives D3 more time to setup his ledge game, which is, of course, exactly what he wants.

...but I feel like I'm reaching a bit. My personal feeling is that Pac wins it, but I'm just saying I wouldn't consider it super outlandish to nudge it toward even.

yea like i've said before, the general consensus of DDD pac-man is that it's either even or slight lose for DDD. I had it in even for awhile but i mostly shifted it to slight lose after realizing that Pac-Man shouldn't be mashing hydrant in disadvantage vs D3 in the first place and a lot of the REALLY good parts about the mu requires the Pac-man to just have a bunch of habits in the first place.

But theres a lot of really nice things going for DDD in the mu. Pac-Man not having a set win condition on D3 or a heavily flawed one is a good reason towards why Pac-Man is also among other matchups like Inkling/Peach where despite them being a better character, the fact that D3 outsurvives almost everything they have while also being hard to edge guard means that they REALLY do not have a set win condition on D3 compared to other chars that can just fish for kill confirms on D3's big body. Pac-Man still can probably mash forward-smash if he wants to and bell is still relatively threatening with fair to key also being reliable at ledge vs D3 to kill at around 120. But honestly, outside of that, D3 doesn't really die until dair/upair starts killing which takes forever. D3 being able to indefinitely hold in inhale while pac man relies a lot on dash dance bell to mess with the opponent does a lot whilst Pac-Man cant punish inhale with jump ins or hydrant unless it's directly above D3.

There's also a lot of other things that makes the mu quite doable but in general Pac-Man D3 is suprisingly good for D3 (at least to his standards). It's not GREAT but it's not really a bracket ruiner for solo-D3 players.

 

[The_Bookworm]

FPS3 Online

1st: Salem
2nd: varun
3rd: Epic_Gabriel
4th: BestNess (once again showing off his deep pockets lol)
5th: Yez
5th: Sonix
7th: Rivers
7th: IcyMist (haven't seen her in a long time)
9th: Andrik
9th: Ribbon
9th: Maister
9th: ChunkyKong
13th: Sharp
13th: Pokelam
13th: CptRemex
13th: Sparg0
17th: Joker
17th: Mr. E
17th: Aaron
17th: MastaMario
17th: Doorstep
17th: Pink Fresh
17th: Razo
17th: MkLeo


Salem won the tournament very commandingly with Enderman, only going Hero to narrowly deal with Sonix.
varun and ChunkyKong placing high with Wii Fit Trainer and Donkey Kong, respectively, is also impressive.
Either way, Salem indeed loves pushing DLC characters with odd mechanics to their limits. We have seen it with SSB4 Bayo, Hero, Min Min, and now Steve.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

https://twitter.com/NintendoVS/status/1325971705655930880?s=20

9.0.2 coming soon, I don’t know of any more existing Steve glitches but with how soon it is after 9.0.1 I doubt it’s anything but more bug fixes.

 

[Aaron1997]

https://twitter.com/NintendoVS/status/1325971705655930880?s=20

9.0.2 coming soon, I don’t know of any more existing Steve glitches but with how soon it is after 9.0.1 I doubt it’s anything but more bug fixes.

The interesting thing is that they specifically mention "fighter adjustments".

Not sure if I seen them mention "fighter adjustments" to describe a big fix patch. Correct me if i'm wrong.

 

[Game7a1]

The interesting thing is that they specifically mention "fighter adjustments".

Not sure if I seen them mention "fighter adjustments" to describe a big fix patch. Correct me if i'm wrong.

Fighter adjustments was also included for describing 9.0.1. I guess it makes sense since they did adjust Steve, but they were just bugfixes. Nintendo's language can be strange.

 

[SwagGuy99]

https://twitter.com/NintendoVS/status/1325971705655930880?s=20

9.0.2 coming soon, I don’t know of any more existing Steve glitches but with how soon it is after 9.0.1 I doubt it’s anything but more bug fixes.

Could potentially be the displacement glitch that happens with Zelda's Phantom and Duck Hunt's Gunman when landing after 8.0, but we'll have to see I guess.

 

[Minix0]

Could potentially be the displacement glitch that happens with Zelda's Phantom and Duck Hunt's Gunman when landing after 8.0, but we'll have to see I guess.

Patch notes: Game and Watch up B now frame 1 and intangible throughout.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Could potentially be the displacement glitch that happens with Zelda's Phantom and Duck Hunt's Gunman when landing after 8.0, but we'll have to see I guess.

They could've fixed that since Ult's beginning. It was there since the start.

But let's see.

 

[The_Bookworm]

https://twitter.com/NintendoVS/status/1325971705655930880?s=20

9.0.2 coming soon, I don’t know of any more existing Steve glitches but with how soon it is after 9.0.1 I doubt it’s anything but more bug fixes.

This patch is very likely just going to be bug fixes. There are more Steve-related glitches that slipped through the cracks from 9.0.1, due to them being discovered later, as well as other game-breaking bugs that exist in the game (like the Zoroark + Hammer freeze glitch).

 

[StrangeKitten]

0.2 makes me think it'll be bugfixes and nothing else. Buffs, nerfs, a random new stage like SB, etc would probably be numbered 9.1.0

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Correction: This update will not feature fighter adjustments.

— Nintendo Versus (@NintendoVS) November 10, 2020

So yeah, probably just bug fixes.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

EDIT:
Speaking of bugs...

Mods delete this, please.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Correction: This update will not feature fighter adjustments.

— Nintendo Versus (@NintendoVS) November 10, 2020

So yeah, probably just bug fixes.

Then I hope that the Zelda shadow buff is off the table because that should be listed under that character.

Same goes for Samus's inability to use grounded upB to get onto the topmost plattform in Yoshi's.

 

[Arthur97]

Then I hope that the Zelda shadow buff is off the table because that should be listed under that character.

Same goes for Samus's inability to use grounded upB to get onto the topmost plattform in Yoshi's.

Unless that's considered a stage adjustment. Remember, that's probably what caused it in the first place.

 

[SwagGuy99]

Dabuz is uploading VODs of his tier list where he goes a bit more indepth than he did in that initial stream where he made it.

 

[Thinkaman]

Then I hope that the Zelda shadow buff is off the table because that should be listed under that character.

Same goes for Samus's inability to use grounded upB to get onto the topmost plattform in Yoshi's.

Unless that's considered a stage adjustment. Remember, that's probably what caused it in the first place.

None of these character/stage files were changed. It's entirely ground-detection engine changes, certainly tied to Steve block interaction fixes.

 

[Arthur97]

Well, could it still not be changed and not be labeled a fighter adjustment?

 

[SwagGuy99]

Raito uploaded part 2 of his tier list.

C TIER



D TIER



E TIER



Luigi being below DK and Kirby, Rosalina being this low, and ICs being this high seem very strange to me. We also get to see where Raito has Steve and it's not very high. We still haven't seen any of the Miis (unless he's not counting them), Plant, or Mewtwo, who I personally would argue belong in C Tier or worse based on how this tier list is laid out.

Edit: Some personal thoughts on characters I think he's underrating/overrating

Characters I personally think he's overrating:

• C Tier > D or E Tier
• Top of C Tier > Bottom of C Tier
• Top of C Tier > Bottom of C Tier/D Tier
• Bottom of C Tier > D Tier

Characters I personally think he's underrating

• Top of C Tier > B Tier
• C Tier > Low B Tier
• D Tier > B or A Tier
• D Tier > B or A Tier
• E Tier > Top of D Tier
• B Tier? > Low C Tier/Top of D Tier
• B Tier? > C Tier

I don't know if he's ranking them or not, but if he is then he's overrating them: