Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Kiligar]

Yeah, I overrated Steve. Is he the worst in the game? I don’t think so with as others say, Ganon and Little Mac existing. He has some great setups and traps, and although he loses to a lot of characters so do the superheavies, with Steve doing better than the superheavies against the rats. But overall way overrated him due to his advantage state, especially his ledgetrapping/edgegaurding against bad recoveries. Speaking of bad recoveries, is overrated. I said it before and I’ll say it again. Roy is the worst sword character at this point, and I’m not including the pseudo swords. Even if I do include the pseudo swords the only character worse than him is Meta Knight. Let’s back up my point. Lucina is better than Roy without contest. Marth has been very close to Roy throughout Ultimate maybe worse maybe better, but Roy’s recovery nerf in patch 3.1(I believe it was that one that messed up his up b stage spike) alongside the introduction of Joker and the Marty buffs gives Marth a clear edge (hah) over Roy. Better matchup spread makes Marth...better and if you talk about inconsistencies with Marth, Roy has them too. Marth can at least do something against the rats and tiny characters in general.

Shulk no contest no explanation needed. Ike has a better recovery, better neutral and better matchup spread. Robin if you count him as a sword has a much better matchup spread and is more versatile due to having many tools in the neutral. Chrom is just better Roy in every matchup bar Joker, even against Joker he’s marginally worse in that matchup if you air dodge correctly. Cloud has a significantly better neutral, much much better Oos, and does better against the rats than Roy. That covers all of them. Pseudo swords I won’t go into but I stand by what I said.


I like playing Roy’s fire emblem game. But I have to admit this character is overrated by the player base. Goblin appears to have dropped Roy for Luigi. Kola uses multiple characters alongside Roy to compensate for Roy’s inconsistencies. Basically every other top Roy has to use a pocket Lucina, Chrom or Mario, or anybody who can deal with Roy’s awful matchups. According to U-NO some people in Japan think Roy is mid tier due to the matchup spread. Ultimately I think Roy is a low high tier. Unless his recovery is buffed I believe he’ll stay there.

 

[SwagGuy99]

Goblin appears to have dropped Roy for Luigi.

That was a joke for the month of October (I think?). Not really sure what spawned the joke, but he was doing alright with Luigi funnily enough. When he made his last matchup chart for Roy, he said he might consider using another character against Pikachu and/or Pichu since he thinks those are Roy's worst matchups by a fairly large margin, and Luigi does do fine against them according to Elegant, so maybe he's just looking into secondaries for one or both of those matchups? IDK, but if you go check his Twitter, that joke seems to be over now.

Also, something else you mentioned is that Marth's matchup spread is better. Comparing Rizeasu's Marth matchup chart and Goblin's Roy matchup chart, Goblin's Roy one does make Roy seem very slightly better than Marth IMO, although that's not to say Rizeasu's Marth matchup chart makes Marth look bad at all either. Marth losing only 4 matchups according to Rizeaus, (2 of which are to the Pit's who are kind of obscure) is still worth nothing. Rizeasu seems to think Marth beats most of the cast slightly, just like Goblin thinks Roy does.

 

[Cheryl~]

Goblin picking up Luigi was just a joke because Wi-Fi Luigi is seen as a joke of a design at this point. Kiyarash (the best Wi-Fi Luigi who’s gotten some amazing result) is legitimately a decent player though despite the clear Wi-Fi habits in his play.

 

[KirbySquad101]

The fact that it is an offline tournament that Mii Brawler (and Robin) won in a sea of Wi-Fi events is why we should be discussing it more. Isn't offline tournament performances what drove discussion here in the past? Maybe it's not "S-Tier quality", but that shouldn't mean we ignore it altogether either.

We don't have to talk about Mii Brawler suddenly being high tier or whatever tier. We can talk about what he was doing with Mii Brawler that allowed him to topple juggernauts like Kuro and Tea, or even just other things in the tournament, like how ZAKI was able to 3-0 Kome with (probably) Dedede, or like how the Robin counterpick worked in Rizesau's favor. I would think events like these (and the one Tsu got 2nd in with mostly Doc) at least merit some form of discussion, especially over beaten-to-death topics like Pika's viability.

 

[Kiligar]

Goblin was optimistic about several matchups in his matchup chart for Roy. Roy definitely doesn’t win against Inkling, Lucina, Shulk!?!?(Has to be a joke), as well as very arguably Palutena, Wolf and Peach. In fact many top Roy mains argue Roy loses matchups such as Shulk, Inkling and Lucina. Fox, Joker, Game&Watch, SNAKE and Greninja are seen almost universally by top Roys as in the opponent’s favor, not even. I think Roy is low high tier, slightly worse than Marth who is also a low high tier imo.

On a more positive note I want to talk about characters with potential whose futures are looking bright. Pit, my longtime main in Smash Ultimate, (although I’m switching over to either Chrom or Robin after playing through Awakening and having a blast) really is in a good spot. The buffs were important and fixed vital issues with his kill power, advantage state and neutral. The only thing I would like to see are fixes to his inconsistencies, (falling out of nair, side special armor not working, down special not covering feet from the sides) but overall he feels like a fully fleshed out character now.

TAMISUMA 191 SSBU - Nata (Pit) Vs. Ashimo (Ryu) Smash Ultimate Round 2

TAMISUMA is an Online Smash Bros. Ultimate Tournament in Japan Bracket: https://smashmate.net/bracket/3312/ Follow aMSa! ▼Twitch https://twitch.tv/amsayoshi ...

youtu.be

 

[StrangeKitten]

I think Roy is the second best swordie actually, behind Shulk. He has excellent speed, explosive kill power, and can go pretty deep for edgeguards like Lucina can

 

[Firox]

I think Roy is the second best swordie actually, behind Shulk. He has excellent speed, explosive kill power, and can go pretty deep for edgeguards like Lucina can

My only major complaint about Roy is that his reach is arguably the worst of any swordie. The fact that his "strong zone" is at the base of his sword only exacerbates this. To be honest, I think Chrom would easily be the best swordie if only his recovery wasn't total ass. If Chrom had Roy's recovery, he'd be easily top tier. I also think Cloud is better than Roy due to a vastly superior neutral and the advantages Limit gives to his recovery and kill options. Having an actual projectile is a pretty nice bonus as well.

 

[SwagGuy99]

My only major complaint about Roy is that his reach is arguably the worst of any swordie. The fact that his "strong zone" is at the base of his sword only exacerbates this. To be honest, I think Chrom would easily be the best swordie if only his recovery wasn't total ass. If Chrom had Roy's recovery, he'd be easily top tier. I also think Cloud is better than Roy due to a vastly superior neutral and the advantages Limit gives to his recovery and kill options. Having an actual projectile is a pretty nice bonus as well.

I feel like the debate behind the best swordfighter is interesting, as I'd argue there's several who come close to being the best. If I had to order them, I'd say it's something like this

• is the best by a slight margin. I think he does have weaknesses (the startup on some of his moves leaves a bit to be desired, his recovery without Jump Art isn't great, he does get outboxed up close) and a decent amount of the good characters can work around his Arts, but he has far too much going for him. His strengths are absurd: his aerials become somewhat spammable against characters who can't deal with his range, his neutral and ability to approach are solid against most of the cast, camping him is hard for most of the cast, comboing him is difficult due to switching Arts in hitstun, the list goes on. He beats several relevant characters with and being the most extreme examples of this. I do think he loses a handful of matchups, although he doesn't lose to anyone worse than him. are matchups I would consider difficult for him, but I'm not even convinced he loses to the latter half of that list. I also think he borderline invalidates some of the more mediocre characters on paper, with and being the only two that stand out as having solid options to deal with him.
• The second best swordfighter in my opinion is . There's a bit of gap between him and Shulk, but not much. I think that Roy also does really well against the top tiers and has absurd strengths. Amazing kill power, combo game, mobility, good juggling tools, can pressure shields really well with safe moves, a hard to contest recovery, solid up-close options and mid range options, Roy has a lot going for him, but his weaknesses definitely stand out a lot more than Shulk's. Despite his recovery being safe and hard to contest, it's still not great overall in terms of distance. Roy still gets outboxed by a handful of characters as well, his disadvantage is one of the worst among the top tiers, and he does struggle to hit shorter characters to some degree. I think he does really well against a lot of the top and high tiers like . I think he does have some bad matchups, with and being the worst, with and also being somewhat difficult for him as well I'd argue. Overall, a solid character, but he's not without his weaknesses.
• Third best is really close I'd say, it's either or , but I'd lean towards Lucina being slightly better. Chrom overall, shares a lot of similarities with Roy, with some benefits and drawbacks, the main drawbacks being that his recovery is much, much worse, especially horizontally, he loses a lot of the early kill potential that Roy's side-b gives him, and he loses some of the combo potential Roy's different hitboxes offer him. In return, his moves are better suited for mid and long range, his juggling potential is better due to up-air's lack of a sourspot, and he can overall play more defensively in a lot of scenarios. However, I think that his drawbacks matter a lot and while he loses a similar amount of matchups as Roy ( maybe ), a lot of matchups Roy straight up wins, Chrom instead goes closer to even with a lot of them (there are exceptions). Lucina is really good as well and has good offensive and defensive options, and overall doesn't really have too many huge weaknesses outside of having trouble landing and getting outboxed, but I think she suffers from being a bit too flowcharty and basic at times. Her options are simple and very effective, but I think in comparison to Roy and Chrom, she doesn't have as many ways to mix up what she wants to do in specific situations which hurts her to some degree. In terms of matchups, like Shulk, she does extremely well against a lot of the more mediocre characters with only a few exceptions like and and she loses only a few matchups ( are the main ones that come to mind) but I feel like again, her matchup spread trends towards even and slight wins against most of the high and top tiers just like Chrom, and I think that her simplicity makes it easier for a good player to properly exploit her weaknesses than Shulk, Roy, and maybe Chrom as well.

If I had to order the rest, I'd say that is next, he's almost top tier and might barely be one, but he is just slightly worse than these other 4 IMO. Then who is kind of an all rounder character who has weaknesses that are noticeable, but he has really solid tools to stop people from taking advantage of them. His range and kill power being extremely good are worth mentioning as well. Before his buffs, I'd say he was worse than Marth, but now, he's quite a bit better. Then I'd say who I think is solid, but lacks the consistency of a top tier. Even though Roy and Chrom are exploitable in disadvantage and can die off of losing neutral only once (which should make them inconsistent), characters will often struggle to put them in a disadvantageous position. Marth's inconsistencies come from his inability to do much of anything against a decent amount of the cast if he fails to land the hitboxes he wants and while he speed and range can carry him through some matchups alone, it won't against a lot of the cast. After Marth, I think is the next best one. They're fine overall, and I'd like a chance to fight a good Corrin player offline to see if my current impressions change at all. However, my current opinion is that they're just decent enough at everything, similarly to Ike but their strengths aren't nearly as extreme but their weaknesses also aren't nearly as extreme. My opinion on Corrin is subject to change though.

I'm going to talk about a bit more in depth because I just don't see what people see in this character. I think at best, they're bottom 10 and at worst, they're bottom 5. The buffs given to a lot of characters in patch 8.0 were extremely detrimental to this character's longevity, as a lot of the characters some players initially perceived them as doing maybe having slightly favorable matchups against were changed so they no longer do, such as and . also does really well against this character. Byleth's main strength, (their range) is not all that impressive because their moves are extremely slow to come out and most of them travel pretty telegraphed ways that make them easy to avoid (or be low profiled in some cases). Byleth isn't fast either, and her moves don't cover a huge area in front of her like Shulk which means that she's trying to approach you with a f-air (or b-air) that isn't at all threatening if you stay out of it's small area. Some more weaknesses she has is that her projectile is really bad (offline at least, it's better online), her down-b is unusable, and several of her main kill moves rely on you tippering them (f-air, b-air, f-smash) or are extremely slow (d-smash, d-air although it is somewhat hard to avoid in some scenarios offstage), which leaves her with just her up-b spike and up-smash as her most reliable kill options, and her up-b spike isn't even that good. Byleth also has very few answers to being camped, so characters like and can run circles around her and play hard to hit while racking up damage from a safe distance. I legitimately don't know what matchups this character straight up wins. Maybe and Steve who are two of the only characters who don't really have a strong camping game, superior ranged attacks, or aren't faster than Byleth? This character is really bad and I struggle to see how Byleth isn't low tier when their overall kit and gameplan just has so many flaws.

 

[Idon]

My only major complaint about Roy is that his reach is arguably the worst of any swordie. The fact that his "strong zone" is at the base of his sword only exacerbates this. To be honest, I think Chrom would easily be the best swordie if only his recovery wasn't total ass. If Chrom had Roy's recovery, he'd be easily top tier. I also think Cloud is better than Roy due to a vastly superior neutral and the advantages Limit gives to his recovery and kill options. Having an actual projectile is a pretty nice bonus as well.

I heavily disagree with Cloud being better than Roy. Roy has way better mobility, combos, easy confirms, and can delete stocks absurdly early.

 

[Firox]

I heavily disagree with Cloud being better than Roy. Roy has way better mobility, combos, easy confirms, and can delete stocks absurdly early.

Does anyone have some statistical data to compare the two? Anecdotes are well and good, but I'm curious what the objective evidence has to say.

 

[The_Bookworm]

I heavily disagree with Cloud being better than Roy. Roy has way better mobility, combos, easy confirms, and can delete stocks absurdly early.

While I agree that > , a few of your points isn't entirely true, especially mobility.

• Cloud actually possesses a slightly faster run speed than Roy. Cloud's run speed is 2.167 (12th fastest) while Roy's is 2.145 (13th-14th fastest), with this distinction being even bigger if Cloud has limit (2.3837).
• Roy does possess a bit faster initial dash though. Roy's initial dash is 2.2 (11th-12th fastest) while Cloud's is 2.145 (15th fastest), although Cloud's is faster if he has limit (2.3595).
• Roy does possess notably faster air speed. Roy's air speed is 1.302 (4th-5th fastest) while Cloud's is 1.155 (19th-24th fastest). Cloud is, again, faster than Roy when in limit (1.386).
• Cloud does possess notably faster air acceleration. Cloud's air acceleration is 0.07 (47th-51st fastest), while Roy's is 0.05 (67th-78th fastest. Cloud's air acceleration gets boosted further in limit (0.084).

So their overall mobility specs is about the same. Roy has the upper end in initial dash and air speed, but Cloud does in run speed and air acceleration. Cloud is faster across the board with limit active, but he is only going to have it <15 seconds at a time.
They are both very mobile characters overall.

I will post in a sec on what I think the sword characters stack against eachother.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

While I agree that > , a few of your points isn't entirely true, especially mobility.

• Cloud actually possesses a slightly faster run speed than Roy. Cloud's run speed is 2.167 (12th fastest) while Roy's is 2.145 (13th-14th fastest), with this distinction being even bigger if Cloud has limit (2.3837).
• Roy does possess a bit faster initial dash though. Roy's initial dash is 2.2 (11th-12th fastest) while Cloud's is 2.145 (15th fastest), although Cloud's is faster if he has limit (2.3595).
• Roy does possess notably faster air speed. Roy's air speed is 1.302 (4th-5th fastest) while Cloud's is 1.155 (19th-24th fastest). Cloud is, again, faster than Roy when in limit (1.386).
• Cloud does possess notably faster air acceleration. Cloud's air acceleration is 0.07 (47th-51st fastest), while Roy's is 0.05 (67th-78th fastest. Cloud's air acceleration gets boosted further in limit (0.084).

So their overall mobility specs is about the same. Roy has the upper end in initial dash and air speed, but Cloud does in run speed and air acceleration. Cloud is faster across the board with limit active, but he is only going to have it <15 seconds at a time.
They are both very mobile characters overall.

I will post in a sec on what I think the sword characters stack against eachother.

To note:

- is a faster faller (1.8, 2.88) then (1.68, 2.68)

Generally, base Cloud favors spacing more over Roy's more prevalent burst movement.


If we're ranking swordies, here's my take:

( ) = pseudo swordies, AKA characters with notable sword-like traits / disjoint, so don't take them too seriously.
Though I won't argue if you disagree.

Spoiler: List:

-() - Dagger.

-() - Nearly all of his attacks are disjointed.

-

-() - See Ivy.

-

-

-

- - I have a very high opinion of him.

- - See Yink.

-() - Pikmin are basically living weapons.

-

-

-

-

-

-

- - Would be higher if their sucky hitboxes were addressed...

-() - Most/all of Kazooie's attacks are disjointed, she's basically a living weapon.

-() - All of his tail and wing attacks fit this trait.

-

- - Might be higher, but we don't see enough of them.

-() - Hammer.

- -See Mii Swordfighter.

- - If this were any other Smash game, Byelth could make a strong argument for high tier, but sadly not in Ultimate where mobility is so important without the assistance of a strong, area-controlling projectile...

-() - See Icies.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Before I post my personal rankings, the characters I am going to include in the rankings are:


I decided to not include or Steve.
Despite both possessing a sword, they only really use it for half of their moveset at best, plus these two play nothing like a sword character.
The former plays a similar game akin to the Belmonts and Min Min, while the latter plays.... nothing like everyone else in the game.
Plus, these two are way too new to have a concrete idea on where they are.

I was tempted to exclude and for similar reasons, but their normals primarily use their swords, so I decided to include them in.

Spoiler: Here is the rankings for me

1. (Amazing mobility; Strong KO potential; Very good damage output; Great frame data; Inconsistent KO and damage potential; Lacking reach overall; Lackluster disadvantage)
2. (See above about Roy; Consistent sword with consistent damage and KO potentials; Can space out sword well in comparison to Roy; Uniform plus frames; Lacks Roy's explosive KO power at times; Weaker recovery)
3. (Amazing range; Great edgeguarding; Strong anti-airs; Monado Arts; Poor startup frames in attacks; Monado Arts can backfire; Linear recovery without Jump)
4. (Great range; Pretty good damage output; Solid KO potential; Struggles with being juggled; Sometimes lack the "oomph" factor)
5. (Amazing mobility; Great Reach; Solid combo potential; Limit boosting mobility and special moves; Inconsistent KO potential; Lackluster recovery)
6. (Strong zoning potential; Very good frame data; Strong combo game; Neutral air; Poor reach; Lightweight; Inconsistent KO potential without combo starters)
7. (Long reach; Strong set-up potential; Neutral air; Great KO power; Poor frame data; Linear recovery; Combo fodder)
8. (Long reach; Overall safe neutral game with aerials; Strong KO potential; Hard to escape juggles; Overall sluggish frame data; Combo fodder)
9. (Very solid mobility, especially in ground; Pretty good frame data; Very solid combo game; Great edgeguarding; Poor hitboxes; Inconsistent KO potential; Below-average damage output)
10. (Solid reach in attacks; Great overall KO potential and combo game; Great ledgetrapping; Mediocre mobility; Awkward neutral game; Lacking disadvantage)
11. (Very good zoning/set-ups; Pretty good reach for his size; Good overall frame data; Awkward disadvantage state; Advantage state not being very spectacular; Below-average damage output)
12. (Strong zoning/set-up game with tomes; Powerful sword attacks thanks to Levin Sword; Potential strong damage potential; Poor mobility; Durability system; Frame data middling at best)
13. (Great range; Strong potential KO potential with tippers; Struggles with being juggled; Poor damage and KO potential with sourspots)
14. (Strong damage output and counterzoning with Menu; Poor frame data; Limited mobility in air; Lackluster range outside of his very slow moves)
15. (Very good frame data; Amazing recovery; Poor reach; Very low damage output)
16. (Good projectile game; Poor reach; Lackluster frame data)

If I put anywhere, it would be in-between Marth and Hero.

 

[williamsga555]

I mean, if you're going to include characters like Ivysaur due to the ratio of disjoints, then surely we're obligated to include Bowser Jr. and Game & Watch as well?

Iunno, to me "sword fighter" is less about merely having disjoints and more about a certain playstyle archetype

 

[Arthur97]

I mean, if you're going to include characters like Ivysaur due to the ratio of disjoints, then surely we're obligated to include Bowser Jr. and Game & Watch as well?

Iunno, to me "sword fighter" is less about merely having disjoints and more about a certain playstyle archetype

According to a lot online it seems to be "are they Fire Emblem?" I generally wouldn't call them swordfighters if they, you know, don't have swords.

 

[DougEfresh]

I'm not going to go through the whole list of swordies in the game and rank them all in a particular order, but here's my two cents on a few of the notable swordies at the top of the pack Imo:

: I do think Shulk is the best swordie in the game; not by very much, but I think he's better by a decent enough margin to separate himself from the rest of the swordies.

On a general note, I think most people tend to think he's a bit overrated because the Shulk community (in my eyes, at least) seem to focus way too much on all the "tech" with monado arts and creating a glossary for the terminology of said tech instead of improving how to manage monado arts in a more practical and fundamental way that can become very effective with heightened situational awareness and more game knowledge.

He's far from a beginner-friendly character, but I don't think he needs to be so damn complex, either. Despite the slow start up, I think the extreme versatility and snowball factor of monado arts makes it a miniscule flaw at worst. Shulk's recovery can be exploitable and sometimes he struggles snapping to ledge with air slash, but I'd argue that jump art gives more recovery timing mix ups in the 6 seconds he has it than people are giving credit for. Speed art is another art that allows him to recover well if he's sent more horizontally off-stage, and the very high gravity and air drift makes it difficult to challenge him off the level even with good reaction times.

Overall, I'd say Shulk is top 10 in Ultimate as of right now, and over time could very well be top 5 when/if monado art usage and management gets more refined and optimized. I think dial storage is the only tech that's useful to learn since it allows you transition into arts faster than you would otherwise, but aside from that, if you like a more traditional swordie gameplan with spacing and pressuring your opponents with superior range, combined with the extra flavor and versatility that monado arts give you, Shulk is a great character to play and I think he can be a pretty effective secondary at most, if not all, levels of play if people's perception around the character were changed and weren't scared off from using him because of "tech."

For 2nd to 4th best swordies, I think that comes down to and , though not necessarily in that order. There are good arguments for where you can rank these 3 relative to the others, and I think it depends on what the player values more: the explosive speed, combo game and raw kill power of Chroy, or the very solid, all-arounder Lucina who has everything in a character that allows her to exemplify "consistency" so well, but has no real cheese factor to speak of. Although it bears no weight on ranking her viability per se, I do find lucina a bit too bland for my tastes and she sometimes does take a bit more work to kill (outside of edgeguards I suppose) than Roy or even Chrom. Regardless, I think all 4 are top tier, and the remaining swordies are somewhere in high tier ( and being the potential exceptions, although time will tell with these three. I don't agree with folks who say that Lucina and Marth are a whole two tiers apart just because the difference in consistency between the two isn't as large as most make it out to be Imo, though he's on the lower end of high tier if at all).

 

[Frihetsanka]

People are underrating Corrin as usual, which is to be expected but still somewhat disappointed (took some people years in Smash 4 to stop calling her a mid tier, after all). What's funny is that nearly everything used to describe Lucina's strengths could be used to describe Corrin's strengths as well, and Corrin has some notable advantages over Lucina, such as a better combo game and kill power. I suspect much of it has to do with people not being familiar with Ultimate Corrin and people having forgotten about Cosmos's performance in Smash 4 with Corrin.

I would go Shulk > Roy > Chrom > Lucina > Corrin > Ike > Cloud > Marth at the moment, though Ike and Cloud are really close and could easily switch positions. Roy and Chrom could also switch positions, lately I've been thinking that Roy is a little bit better though. All of them are top 30-40 at worst probably, aside from maybe Marth. Only Shulk is likely to be top 10, Roy could be though. In any case, swordfighters seem quite good in this game.

As long as we're sticking to "traditional swordfighting styles". Mii Swordfighter is more of a projectile zoner? Byleth is strange, seems to be a mix of a sword and a spear or something.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

I mean, if you're going to include characters like Ivysaur due to the ratio of disjoints, then surely we're obligated to include Bowser Jr. and Game & Watch as well?

Iunno, to me "sword fighter" is less about merely having disjoints and more about a certain playstyle archetype

Smash definition's of a swordie has become pretty broad especially in this game, thus why I said:

don't take them too seriously.

The bare sword idea isn't locked under one or two archetypes, and honestly, it's more fun for me to bring other characters when discussing this.
(Also yeah I call a pseudo swordie, sue me)

People are underrating Corrin as usual, which is to be expected

is unarguably good now, and a solid high tier on their own IMO.
Other swordies just do better IMO.

 

[StrangeKitten]

Overall, I'd say Shulk is top 10 in Ultimate as of right now, and over time could very well be top 5 when/if monado art usage and management gets more refined and optimized. I think dial storage is the only tech that's useful to learn since it allows you transition into arts faster than you would otherwise, but aside from that, if you like a more traditional swordie gameplan with spacing and pressuring your opponents with superior range, combined with the extra flavor and versatility that monado arts give you, Shulk is a great character to play and I think he can be a pretty effective secondary at most, if not all, levels of play if people's perception around the character were changed and weren't scared off from using him because of "tech."

It's kinda funny. Everyone hyping Shulk up as suuuper-complex put me off of playing him for the longest time. Then, I just got this gut feeling that I should try playing as him and ended up falling in love with his kit. I don't have dial storage or any of the crazy tech down... And that's okay! He's still a super solid character even without. You just put on Speed art to nyoom and you've won neutral, and from there, Buster will rack up the damage like crazy, and then Smash for a super early kill if you can. Then of course, Jump if you need a boost to your recovery, and Shield to break out of strings/live to 200. It's actually pretty simple.

Granted, people are still right when they say Shulk is a very deep character. I've seen the crazier stuff he can do with his tech, and hell, I could probably get it down somewhat if I spent the time in Training Mode. But once you get used to activating Arts and how he handles with them, he's honestly not that hard of a character to play

 

[Rizen]

TBT, no character in Ultimate is super complex or hard to play. I was around during Brawl and played . We had ATs like Dash Attack Cancel Usmash and bomb sliding. Everyone had infinites and chaingrabs to worry about. SSBU doesn't even come close to that complexity.

 

[TennisBall]

TBT, no character in Ultimate is super complex or hard to play. I was around during Brawl and played . We had ATs like Dash Attack Cancel Usmash and bomb sliding. Everyone had infinites and chaingrabs to worry about. SSBU doesn't even come close to that complexity.

I feel like a hard exception to this is Icies. I've tried talking to a few Icies mains and it feels like they're talking about a different fighting game with the amount of tech and optimization they're talking about. Multiple true 0tds, desyncs off the rails, shieldpressure and shieldstun confirms, wobbling but it's really cool and awe-inspiring, the character just sometimes not functioning correctly with Nana still being really dumb and their recovery occasionally just not working.

The rest are noticeably easier, I labbed some Peach for fun and within two days I got the character down to a decent level techincally speaking, been experimenting with Luigi and I have to Touch of Deaths mostly down to muscle memory after like a week and a half of consistent practice.
tldr Icies are pretty cool.

 

[Firox]

TBT, no character in Ultimate is super complex or hard to play. I was around during Brawl and played . We had ATs like Dash Attack Cancel Usmash and bomb sliding. Everyone had infinites and chaingrabs to worry about. SSBU doesn't even come close to that complexity.

Aaaah, the good old days of Wolf DACUS, sliding around the stage with a break dancing kick. Good times.

 

[SwagGuy99]

I think Dabuz is completing his redemption arc guys

9.0 Tier List

Plan to upload each tier as it's own video later pic.twitter.com/lzwvc5Dp5A

— Liquid | Dabuz (@DabuzSenpai) November 6, 2020

Compared to his 8.0 tier list, there's a lot of things I have minor nitpicks here, but very few major nitpicks, with the two biggest ones probably being the placements of and who both probably could drop about 2 tiers from where Dabuz has them

 

[DougEfresh]

Idk, I find a lot with Dabuz's 9.0 tier list that's at least as disagreeable as his 8.0 one was.

First off, Idk how and are in true mid. Maybe several patches ago before all of their respective buffs happened that was the case, but they're much too strong of characters to be that low. They still have flaws, mainly with their neutral game and recoveries, but they've got a lot of good stuff now. I'd put all 3 in high tier, perhaps on the lower end of it.

in upper mid is another notable underestimate Imo, especially with the latter ever since his 7.0 buffs at the beginning of this year. Adult link is heavy, with solid range, great kill power, and bomb tech and young link has an amazing neutral with numerous confirms that help compensate for his lack of raw kill power a lot of times. Once again, both should be in high tier, with Yink a bit higher than Link, but not by much.

It's common perception that > , but I disagree with them being two tiers apart. I've been seeing WebbJP put in tons of work with Lucas in wifi brackets and notwithstanding the concession that net play gives a different outlook on the game compared to offline, he's definitely made me a believer in the lesser used PK boy and I hope he makes a splash once offline events return. I think he's just a much more technical counterpart to Ness, so most people don't play him or develop his meta, but the things I've seen from Lucas mains like WebbJP and Blucas are definitely quite saucy. Ness might still be the better of the two, but not by such a large margin as Dabuz has them Imo.

It seems pretty odd to me that and are in upper mid as well. The former two I could maybe see if Dabuz is being reserved on their places in the tier list since their 8.0 buffs happened while we're in the thick of it with the pandemic, but once again, I think they all got the goods to have places in high tier. The results of Samus from Quik and Joker are also pretty convincing that she's a high tier character, even if she's less commonly used in offline events.

All in all, I would say that the bulk of characters from low tier to upper mid tier should be shifted up 1-2 tiers, and and each probably shifted down by one tier. Almost all of top and high tier looks about right though, as expected since those characters are particularly the ones that most/all top players know a good bit about.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Whilst I agree in general Diddy should be in High Tier, placing him above the likes of Lucina, Inkling, Pokémon Trainer and Mega Man seems somewhat hopeful. I'm sure with the buffs he's received he's about their level and he's got great Top Tier matchups, particularly against Palutena and Joker. Always had them, always said that. But he hasn't got the actual results due to there not being actual tournaments, and Diddy not being particularly strong in WiFi (quite the opposite).

Then again, no character really is able to proof their presence due to the whole Covid thing honestly.

 

[The_Bookworm]

I think Dabuz is completing his redemption arc guys

9.0 Tier List

Plan to upload each tier as it's own video later pic.twitter.com/lzwvc5Dp5A

— Liquid | Dabuz (@DabuzSenpai) November 6, 2020

Compared to his 8.0 tier list, there's a lot of things I have minor nitpicks here, but very few major nitpicks, with the two biggest ones probably being the placements of and who both probably could drop about 2 tiers from where Dabuz has them

Outside of a few positions (I do think he might've placed Min Min a little too high), I am actually pretty happy with this tier list from Dabuz.

Probably one of my favorite top player tier lists in a long time.

Edit: In some followup posts, a few placements have been slightly adjusted.
is now on front of , moving him from "True Mid" to "Upper Mid".
is now on front of .
is moved behind .
is moved behind , moving him from "Sauce Tier" to "High Tier".

 

[Lacrimosa]

At least Zelda isn't bottom 5 in his list anymore. Which is good. The previous placement was just horrendous.

 

[SwagGuy99]

At least Zelda isn't bottom 5 in his list anymore. Which is good. The previous placement was just horrendous.

yeah, his previously questionable placements of all seem a bit more reasonable now. I do think there's still a few characters who are definitely a bit off from where they should be IMO, but compared to his last tier list, this one is much better.

Characters I'd change a bit personally

• I think is about 5 to 10 spots lower than Dabuz has him. He's good probably just managing to get into who I think is the Top 25 characters in Ultimate, but I think that people (especially Sonic players) overrate his matchup spread (he loses to very few characters, probably less than 10, but he has way more even matchups than most Sonic mains give him credit for) and some of them seem to brush over his issue of killing, which means that he does have trouble catching up if his opponent manages to get a lead (although he still can kill early with edgeguards, so this isn't a hugely detrimental issue).
• I'd move down a bit to the bottom of high tier. He's really, really solid and is a good character against a lot of the characters in top/high tier, but his inconsistencies when it comes to killing and his weirdly lackluster matchup spread against the characters worse than him hold him back a bit.
• Based on how Dabuz has divided up the tiers, I'd argue that should be at the bottom of high tier at bare minimum and I feel like most people would agree with this for obvious reasons (great at conditioning, good edgeguarding, amazing ledgetrapping, decent matchup spread, good tools for camping and zoning, etc.). My guess as to why she's this low is because Samus is one of Olimar's best matchups and one of her worst matchups so Dabuz may have some slight bias because of that. Rosalina also does decent against her.
• I explained my issues with a bit earlier in this thread when talking about the best/worst swordfighters, she's probably the character Dabuz is overrating the most on here and probably belongs in the "could use buffs?" tier.
• I think is still being underrated by Dabuz but not to the extent he did on his last tier list. Lucas is overall a solid character in my eyes. His moves being disjointed as well as PK Fire give him amazing mid range options that work really well against a lot of the cast. His aerial mobility as well as his ways to mix up his movement give him better options against characters with range than Ness has, and his matchup spread against the characters Dabuz has in his top tier is much better than any other character Dabuz has in true mid tier or below except Falco. Lucas is just a solid character, and I think Dabuz is still underrating him a bit.
• is way too high I think. I'd put her as far down as true mid tier honestly, and if you want to be an optimist, maybe high mid tier. Her range and ability to wall out a lot of characters is impressive, she's really good against a lot of the campy characters who have poor mobility since she can outcamp them and force them to approach when they aren't prepared to. Her ledgetrapping and ability to edgeguard characters who have to recover directly to ledge is also really good. However, this character has some pretty extreme flaws as well. Her disadvantage state is abysmal, her moves are pretty reactable at a distance, her ability to kill when her opponent isn't at ledge or recovering to the ledge isn't the best, a lot of her moves leave her open to getting hit by a projectile if they whiff, she's not very fast, her recovery isn't great (although I underrated it a bit in the past, it's better than I thought it initially was), and her ability to cover potential approaches from above is pretty bad (although a lot of characters don't have good enough air speed to be able to take advantage of that). I think her matchup spread is very polarizing since not every character can properly exploit these weaknesses. In fact, I would argue she has losing matchups to most of the characters in the top 2 tiers of Dabuz's list. However, the lower down the list you go the less characters have the tools to deal her range, which I think makes her a great counterpick against a decent amount of the cast.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

With Dabuz really wants to prove that she's good when offline events come back. I know ESAM and Japan believe in her as well.

 

[NotLiquid]

When will the "Min Min is bad at handling aerial approaches" meme die

 

[Rocketjay8]

When will the "Min Min is bad at handling aerial approaches" meme die

Well If you were to kindly explain why Min Min has ways to stop aerial approaches, we might get rid of that meme.

But for real, can you explain please, I really like your analysis on Min Min.

 

[NotLiquid]

Well If you were to kindly explain why Min Min has ways to stop aerial approaches, we might get rid of that meme.

But for real, can you explain please, I really like your analysis on Min Min.

It's simple, really. Just jump.

People kinda underestimate a whole lot that Min Min isn't a character who likes to be regularly grounded. For her the mere act of jumping serves as a large mix-up option. She has a NAir that speak for itself - an attack with a high-starting hitbox, covers a pretty wide range that is easy to space with, is very spammable in one form, and is a kill move in another. Situationally, her up air is another decent/quicker option. Even while sporting two grounded anti-airs, one of which has insane range and the other which covers cross-ups, her NAir is just as, if not more effective, at performing the same task, and is far safer on whiff. It covers the very selective angle of her much touted aerial "blind spot" since having two jumps, retained mobility and diverging ARMS properties compensates for virtually every lower aerial approach - with her second ARM in particular being a point-blank deterrent if the first whiffs.. and even then she can just jump again and attempt going for a landing NAir. ESAM put it the best in regards to her; she has a multitude of options against aerial opponents, one of the best which is to just jump back at them. She doesn't "struggle" with aerial approaches herself more than players just not playing smart enough, assuming that being locked into narrow smash attacks is the power play, or letting themselves get baited by characters with high/multiple jumps who are trying to condition her to throw out an up smash so that they can go for a fast-fall punish.

The only way I can see people believe she can't handle aerial approaches is if they took Sakurai's walkthrough of the character at face value, believing it accounts for how she actually performs in practice when that only accounts to mere concept and theory. If there's anything she struggles with when it comes to the air, it's landing while in disadvantage state. Her blind spots are underneath the character, not above her. This is part of the reason why Min Min prefers to recover low, because her aerials are otherwise fast enough that she's often able to ward off aerial approaches provided they don't sneak up from under. But her neutral and advantage both when grounded and contending ground-to-air are largely flexible to the point that she's perhaps one of the characters on the roster most evocative of a player's capacity to express their strengths and weaknesses just via smarter play and conditioning.

People sorely need to put their earnest time into this character and understand why and how she works the way she does, because she's easily one of the more misunderstood characters in the roster in that regard.

 

[Lacrimosa]

It's simple, really. Just jump.

People kinda underestimate a whole lot that Min Min isn't a character who likes to be regularly grounded. For her the mere act of jumping serves as a large mix-up option. She has a NAir that speak for itself - an attack with a high-starting hitbox, covers a pretty wide range that is easy to space with, is very spammable in one form, and is a kill move in another. Situationally, her up air is another decent/quicker option. Even while sporting two grounded anti-airs, one of which has insane range and the other which covers cross-ups, her NAir is just as, if not more effective, at performing the same task, and is far safer on whiff. It covers the very selective angle of her much touted aerial "blind spot" since having two jumps, retained mobility and diverging ARMS properties compensates for virtually every lower aerial approach - with her second ARM in particular being a point-blank deterrent if the first whiffs.. and even then she can just jump again and attempt going for a landing NAir. ESAM put it the best in regards to her; she has a multitude of options against aerial opponents, one of the best which is to just jump back at them. She doesn't "struggle" with aerial approaches herself more than players just not playing smart enough, assuming that being locked into narrow smash attacks is the power play, or letting themselves get baited by characters with high/multiple jumps who are trying to condition her to throw out an up smash so that they can go for a fast-fall punish.

The only way I can see people believe she can't handle aerial approaches is if they took Sakurai's walkthrough of the character at face value, believing it accounts for how she actually performs in practice when that only accounts to mere concept and theory. If there's anything she struggles with when it comes to the air, it's landing while in disadvantage state. Her blind spots are underneath the character, not above her. This is part of the reason why Min Min prefers to recover low, because her aerials are otherwise fast enough that she's often able to ward off aerial approaches provided they don't sneak up from under. But her neutral and advantage both when grounded and contending ground-to-air are largely flexible to the point that she's perhaps one of the characters on the roster most evocative of a player's capacity to express their strengths and weaknesses just via smarter play and conditioning.

People sorely need to put their earnest time into this character and understand why and how this character works the way she does, because she's easily one of the more misunderstood characters in the roster in that regard.

I feel like defensive or zoning characters always get this kind of flak.
Yes, of course you can exploit them in a certain but it's not as one-dimensional as people make these characters out to be. Especially when the player playing these characters know what these flaws are, they can play in a way so that it's hard to exploid that weakness.

Like, even Online you may get away with more but the general idea how to fight a character should be still the same, so you should get a basic understanding of what Min-Min (or any zoning character) dislikes and what they do in order to prevent the opponent to break through.

 

[blackghost]

I think Dabuz is completing his redemption arc guys

9.0 Tier List

Plan to upload each tier as it's own video later pic.twitter.com/lzwvc5Dp5A

— Liquid | Dabuz (@DabuzSenpai) November 6, 2020

Compared to his 8.0 tier list, there's a lot of things I have minor nitpicks here, but very few major nitpicks, with the two biggest ones probably being the placements of and who both probably could drop about 2 tiers from where Dabuz has them

im sorry this is bad. there is several things wrong here.


first off.: bayonetta.isnt. good. I dont know where this notion that shes some secret good character comes from. theres no chance she is better than ken, rryu, pichu, wii fit or villager. Bayonetta is so high she is gonna have landing lag until smash 5.

sonic is high. i might have missed some wifi resuts or something but that is a really high placement for him. snake also may be high as well this is not 2018.

shuek seems high.
zelda is low.

i need to hear his thoughts on this list in the videos. epseically both mid-tier and high tier ones.

 

[KirbySquad101]

im sorry this is bad. there is several things wrong here.


first off.: bayonetta.isnt. good. I dont know where this notion that shes some secret good character comes from. theres no chance she is better than ken, rryu, pichu, wii fit or villager. Bayonetta is so high she is gonna have landing lag until smash 5.

sonic is high. i might have missed some wifi resuts or something but that is a really high placement for him. snake also may be high as well this is not 2018.

shuek seems high.
zelda is low.

i need to hear his thoughts on this list in the videos. epseically both mid-tier and high tier ones.

The tier list starts at 3:05:44: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/793065029

I'd actually suggest the people here check it out; it's 3 hours long, but he provides a lot of reasoning and knowledge behind each and every one of the characters in the game, even if some of it may be off.

 

[Firox]

It's simple, really. Just jump.

People kinda underestimate a whole lot that Min Min isn't a character who likes to be regularly grounded. For her the mere act of jumping serves as a large mix-up option. She has a NAir that speak for itself - an attack with a high-starting hitbox, covers a pretty wide range that is easy to space with, is very spammable in one form, and is a kill move in another. Situationally, her up air is another decent/quicker option. Even while sporting two grounded anti-airs, one of which has insane range and the other which covers cross-ups, her NAir is just as, if not more effective, at performing the same task, and is far safer on whiff. It covers the very selective angle of her much touted aerial "blind spot" since having two jumps, retained mobility and diverging ARMS properties compensates for virtually every lower aerial approach - with her second ARM in particular being a point-blank deterrent if the first whiffs.. and even then she can just jump again and attempt going for a landing NAir. ESAM put it the best in regards to her; she has a multitude of options against aerial opponents, one of the best which is to just jump back at them. She doesn't "struggle" with aerial approaches herself more than players just not playing smart enough, assuming that being locked into narrow smash attacks is the power play, or letting themselves get baited by characters with high/multiple jumps who are trying to condition her to throw out an up smash so that they can go for a fast-fall punish.

The only way I can see people believe she can't handle aerial approaches is if they took Sakurai's walkthrough of the character at face value, believing it accounts for how she actually performs in practice when that only accounts to mere concept and theory. If there's anything she struggles with when it comes to the air, it's landing while in disadvantage state. Her blind spots are underneath the character, not above her. This is part of the reason why Min Min prefers to recover low, because her aerials are otherwise fast enough that she's often able to ward off aerial approaches provided they don't sneak up from under. But her neutral and advantage both when grounded and contending ground-to-air are largely flexible to the point that she's perhaps one of the characters on the roster most evocative of a player's capacity to express their strengths and weaknesses just via smarter play and conditioning.

People sorely need to put their earnest time into this character and understand why and how she works the way she does, because she's easily one of the more misunderstood characters in the roster in that regard.

I mean, worst case, she still has a pretty solid OoS Up Smash too. I can't tell you enough how many times people will try to Nair land on her just to get shield-up smashed. You can also do a fade-back pivot grab to punish whatever they land with. She's got tons of options. The key is to remember to never commit to any grounded punches unless the spacing is favorable. To be honest, I've found her greatest blind spot to be diagonally from below. As Greninja, I net tons of Min Min kills by jumping backwards off the ledge while she's offstage, then as she tries to cover her return with a Fair or two, I use my double jump diagonally from below and nail her with Bair. Granted, she can technically cover this with Nair but the timing needs to be perfect since Greninja's Bair is frame 5. Point is, she has answers to stuff. Just don't treat her like a horizontal punching machine.

 

[blackghost]

The tier list starts at 3:05:44: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/793065029

I'd actually suggest the people here check it out; it's 3 hours long, but he provides a lot of reasoning and knowledge behind each and every one of the characters in the game, even if some of it may be off.

some of it? i listened to his ryu and ken reasoning and a few others, its very sus. hopefully his video goes more in depth.
the bayo reasoning is also really weak. its also very insonsistent. when he was talking about pichu dabuz basically said If you are hitting your opponent and playing well the self-damage balances out, but he choose to weigh that assuming pichu would always be landing hits is too much. when he discussed bayo he innately assumed best-case scenario for bayonetta.

her main upside is anti-air opponents. her combo game is not nearly as consistent as other combo characters in this game. she is not looping you like some and her combos still can cause her to set herself up for reversal deaths. and frame data, movement speed, killpower, and more almost every measurment we use to sa what characters are good in smash she falls short in. the only thing at this point is smash 4 memory. if Bayonetta appeared for the first time in ultimate no one would even claim shes a mid-tier.
she is no upper mid and the idea she is better than characters he placed in true mid and one or two in low is just bad judgement.

 

[SKX31]

I mean, worst case, she still has a pretty solid OoS Up Smash too. I can't tell you enough how many times people will try to Nair land on her just to get shield-up smashed. You can also do a fade-back pivot grab to punish whatever they land with. She's got tons of options. The key is to remember to never commit to any grounded punches unless the spacing is favorable. To be honest, I've found her greatest blind spot to be diagonally from below. As Greninja, I net tons of Min Min kills by jumping backwards off the ledge while she's offstage, then as she tries to cover her return with a Fair or two, I use my double jump diagonally from below and nail her with Bair. Granted, she can technically cover this with Nair but the timing needs to be perfect since Greninja's Bair is frame 5. Point is, she has answers to stuff. Just don't treat her like a horizontal punching machine.

Yeah, I hesitate with putting her in Top tier (or close to) because a lot of High / Top Tier characters have moves that can threaten her diagonally from below and perhaps keep her in disadvantage. Granted, not every aerial is as fast as Frame 5 and she can kinda cover this by using the B button for Fair and keep the A for Nair - but it can become an uneasy mind game for her where if she guesses wrong she'll be wide open for additional damage or even get KOed. Of course, if she guesses right she'll be back to neutral or advantage, but that's not going to happen every time.

Of course, we've had very few offline events (relatively speaking) so she and Steve could wind up being there (or elsewhere for that matter) - I'm not saying this as a final verdict or anything like that. I might be wrong with this hunch, but it might be worth keeping in mind too.

Also, Gluttony released his offline tier list:

Tier List Ultimate 9.1
Feel free to debate about it, just my opinion after all pic.twitter.com/ibn3hNLXd6

— SLY | Glutonny (@GlutonnySSB) November 6, 2020

 

[SwagGuy99]

This may be worth discussing.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

He spent 3+ hours going through the placings of everyone, I watched a decent chunk of it and most of what he was saying regarding D3s matchups seemed pretty reasonable. He goes pretty indepth on some characters, especially on some of the more controversial placings like Snake, Palu, and Pikachu.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Yeah, I hesitate with putting her in Top tier (or close to) because a lot of High / Top Tier characters have moves that can threaten her diagonally from below and perhaps keep her in disadvantage. Granted, not every aerial is as fast as Frame 5 and she can kinda cover this by using the B button for Fair and keep the A for Nair - but it can become an uneasy mind game for her where if she guesses wrong she'll be wide open for additional damage or even get KOed. Of course, if she guesses right she'll be back to neutral or advantage, but that's not going to happen every time.

Of course, we've had very few offline events (relatively speaking) so she and Steve could wind up being there (or elsewhere for that matter) - I'm not saying this as a final verdict or anything like that. I might be wrong with this hunch, but it might be worth keeping in mind too.

Also, Gluttony released his offline tier list:

Tier List Ultimate 9.1
Feel free to debate about it, just my opinion after all pic.twitter.com/ibn3hNLXd6

— SLY | Glutonny (@GlutonnySSB) November 6, 2020

Well that is the highest tier placement for I have ever seen. I mean not saying that he is possibly noy underated. But I woder what his reasoning is for placing him higher than the likes of ?

Is there a really strong Link player in his region or something