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Abadango is apparently going Meta Knight+Inkling at the moment. MK is partly to cover matchups against smaller characters that can't get Boo-Yah'd as easily, but he also at one point tweeted that MK is "the main of my soul." So Aba definitely sees at least some promise in the character, but it also looks like MK is a comfort choice, whose style of play lines up well with him.
It's really funny, I started off Ultimate thinking that was the worst character in the game due to how his playstyle changed. I dropped to like 200k points and then past 3mil (or whatever Elite was at the time) once i "figured him out", and now he's one of my favorite characters in the game. I still say Metaknight is gonna end up sleeper tier.
's in a precarious position in the meta. He's a very technical character who's well rounded but at the same time doesn't "player counterpick" very well, like SSB4 DK and Bowser. He's good enough to win with hard work yet outclassed by characters who have an easier time winning like Inkling and Wolf. There's not a good reason to play him other than dedicated preference. Top players probably won't pick him up when they can use someone better. I fear he'll fade into obscurity as the barely high tier who shows up in top 8s occasionally and never breaks outs.
I think 's biggest asset other than his speed is his ability to switch up his playstyle on command. The biggest issue Ylink has is that he has no reliable, EZMode method or gimmick of securing kills other than making the significant read and getting the solid hit.
He's extremely reliant on reading the opponent and while he generally doesn't have an issue hitting people, he doesn't have any accessible buttons that result in a kill.
That Ike is throwing nairs out without any deliberate thought. Half of them weren't even going to hit the enemy if they stood still. Watch Leo's nairs, every single one is on the opponents head. The fox player wasn't punishing nair as much as he was punishing bad play, he could do the same thing if the Ike player was using peach fair, lucina nair or any other safe on block move, without proper thought into when to use the attack.
Ike's nair doesn't really require any counterplay IMO....
Even when people were complaining about it, if people actually paid attention to the matches, it was obvious that the reason people were getting hit with Nair isn't because they didn't know how to deal with it, but because they continuously underestimate its hitbox and get counterhit trying to do things when they don't realize they're still in danger of getting smacked.
It's one of those situations where people just aren't respecting it as much as they should. Ultimate has alot of those situations. The move itself isn't safe on block and doesn't necessarily seem to jail you in a way where you can't respond.
Just tossing it out there that YB https://twitter.com/yb_samus has been hitting top spot on the wi-fi Japanese ladder quite consistently using only Samus/D.Samus.
It would be amazing to get some of the top Samus players to https://twitter.com/2GGaming Metroid Saga but it seems they're all geographically disparate.
Tier lists may be a bit biased as a result of this.
The real killer is the character changed so much. Shameless plug for my recent video showing what she can really do: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvZoUu3QRP4&
All of that is thoroughly tested vs. frame 1 options, it's all real.
The overall changes to defense have been the biggest buffs to .
She still doesn't have the best projectiles, she can't really win shooting matches with anyone, but for the first time in a long time you actually have to respect her attacks now.
I actually feel the same way about , although i don't see many people taking advantage of it. I feel like it's very viable to play Link in a way that abuses defense, especially if you make use of his double arrow.
People don't really expect it from Link, but he can dish out a ridiculous amount of shield damage quickly. And aside from working people into shieldpops, he has alot of range with his new sword and so pokes become a thing, which is significant because ALOT of his moves kill. If Switch had some kind of way to upload videos easily then i'd almost want to make a video on it.
So YL is going to be Smash 4 Peach? Because yeah a highly technical character. Im that game that was good enough to do very well (Look at Samsora) and I feel was high-tier. But with characters who could win easier like Bayo and Cloud, and why would most players pick Peach over characters like them
Btw you still think might become the better character. Tink projectile game may be a bit inferior but he has better range on his sword, is heavierand an easier time killing than YL overall
Yeah pretty much. Ironically Peach is now Bayonetta, lol.
TL might be but I don't know enough about him or his MUs to make an informed decision. Even if he's not better, he can't be far behind YL. In terms of mobility and weight, TL outclasses YL.
In a similar way Lucina's better than Chrom. The floatier type of characters are better at controlling space without committing during jumps.
Just tossing it out there that YB https://twitter.com/yb_samus has been hitting top spot on the wi-fi Japanese ladder quite consistently using only Samus/D.Samus.
It would be amazing to get some of the top Samus players to https://twitter.com/2GGaming Metroid Saga but it seems they're all geographically disparate.
Tier lists may be a bit biased as a result of this.
The real killer is the character changed so much. Shameless plug for my recent video showing what she can really do: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvZoUu3QRP4&
All of that is thoroughly tested vs. frame 1 options, it's all real.
Cool video! I think they have potential to be viable in higher levels of play but many players are opting to use other characters. ESAM is probably the most prominent Samus player but he uses her more of a secondary. Still, he has shown that she can compete, even if it may be match-up specific. Here's ESAM (Samus) vs. MVD (Snake) showing off what she can do.
Still way too early to write off as "the worst" considering the positives to his character are still things you can't sleep on. K.Rool's projectile game is genuinely good, I'd more compare them to something like gordos in how it's more about conditioning your opponent and blocking off their options rather than getting hit by them, this gets an extra bonus as well as their durability is actually really good and they can be difficult to interrupt or stop, it makes match ups against characters like a bit more bearable than most heavies since it gives K.Rool an option to stop their projectile spam outright without the risk of being hit themselves. The armour is always going to be good too, with the key being like the projectiles is to properly pick your spots on when to use them, which can be really deadly considering Ftilt and Uair are both armoured kill moves and can really take people off guard if you've been sparsely using those moves.
on the other hand, I'm genuinely surprised at how good he's been performing lately, even with all of his buffs he's still very much Dedede, so seeing him do this well in tournies is a big deal. Inhale's buffs along with his overall speed buffs make the projectile match ups at least doable now, plus Dedede's multiple jumps and overall ability to stall a massive help against problem characters like , where other heavies with their overall lack of air mobility with their low jumps means they're at risk against things like Inkling's roller and splat bomb along with Snake's grenades and C4, Dedede can just kinda stay in the air actively and avoid a lot of the worst spam, combined with inhale timed well for spitting them back can make the matchups a lot easier than even the best heavies like , I've seen the DK/Snake match up a few times now and it looks like an utter nightmare for DK.
I am somewhat worried about considering their overall playstyle is very much the complete antithesis of what's been considered "good" in regards to the early best characters, but most of the ones I've seen at high level have been very capable and genuinely impressing me with how they've been handling their match ups, so I can only hope they go from strength to strength, specially since especially is a blast to play.
Not worried about at all, he's pretty much the exact same as he was in Smash 4 but with everything tuned up, he's got everything I could want with a heavy and the fact he's got backing him up goes a long way on dealing with his issues. For as good as Ivy has been, you can't go wrong with a speedy heavy with multiple jumps who can easily kill you below 100% with most of his aerials, on top of flare blitz being even more powerful than ever.
I think 's biggest asset other than his speed is his ability to switch up his playstyle on command. The biggest issue Ylink has is that he has no reliable, EZMode method or gimmick of securing kills other than making the significant read and getting the solid hit.
He's extremely reliant on reading the opponent and while he generally doesn't have an issue hitting people, he doesn't have any accessible buttons that result in a kill.
I wouldn't say he lacks kill buttons but rather, outside Fsmash, his kill moves are weak and the opponent will live to at least 140%. Dsmash is f9 and Wolf's is 13. Fair is one frame slower than Wolf's Bair and Dair ties it. The big difference is Wolf's Dsmash kills you at 90% and YL's at 130%. Other moves follow this trend. I've hit Wario at 130%ish with Fair and had him live then kill me at 70% with Waft. There's nothing wrong with YL's gameplan but his power and weight stats are weak. Make YL 95 units heavy (instead of 88) and boost his kill power so he kills 15% earlier and he's an easy top tier.
I was gonna write a post supporting parts of the Plant and how fun he is... but I thought better of it, he's not great. All you have to do to win is keep an eye on him.
It's nice to see Samus getting some discussion, and a small boost by the patch. Would love to see more thoughts on her.
There's a thoughtfulness at work in Ultimate, to a degree that I've begun to wonder if Smash 4's patches in general were crazy test runs for Ultimate concepts.
Yeah pretty much. Ironically Peach is now Bayonetta, lol.
TL might be but I don't know enough about him or his MUs to make an informed decision. Even if he's not better, he can't be far behind YL. In terms of mobility and weight, TL outclasses YL.
In a similar way Lucina's better than Chrom. The floatier type of characters are better at controlling space without committing during jumps.
It's compelling for me to contemplate this sort of risk-reward relation having come from Melee whereas most of y'all seem to have more recent experience in the floatier games.
It's a lot easier in Melee to just play the game better than the other person, whether through better input execution or superior external game knowledge, without having to adapt and respond to the other player and to the specific set of situations at hand in a given match. (For Virtua Fighter, my main FC, this rings even more truly.) This is the certainly the case by proxy of the Melee engine's offering greater possible reward from one opening. This is the usual explanation for why, say, Young Link is better than Link.
But there is another explanation: there are fewer characters in Melee than there are viable characters in SmUsh (this constitutes the main reason why I started to play SmUsh as well. It is really rewarding to have to dissect so many matchups, even if there is less to tease out technically.)
With this fact in mind it becomes easier for me to grasp why consistency tends to be more valued in this game than burst impact. Young Link might fit my execution-heavy style (SH arrow, SHFF neutral air, down tilt, and bomb are amazing tools but tricky to pull off,) but in a game where there are: viable heavies, viable full-screen zoners, and viable air campers, I can understand why Toon Link could be considered a safer option, even if I don't get those moments with him where I feel like it does not matter at all what my opponent is doing, but just what I am doing to the game engine.
That being said, I feel that dash dancing and empty landing are still really strong in this game, even if shield is worse.
I was gonna write a post supporting parts of the Plant and how fun he is... but I thought better of it, he's not great. All you have to do to win is keep an eye on him.
It's nice to see Samus getting some discussion, and a small boost by the patch. Would love to see more thoughts on her.
Camping in general is super problematic for Plant. I agree Samus is bad, but I think Mario is even worse for Plant.
Mario's fireballs completely shut down Plant and force him to approach, and Mario has the speed and frames to throttle Plant up close. Plant's best shot against Mario is to punish perfectly every time, hope they fall for the ball, maybe rack up some Poison damage... but from experience, seasoned Mario's are surprisingly consistent with caping the ball and poison even when mixed up.
Doesn't help Plant's normally good recovery feels like Ganon tier against someone who can lob fireballs freely from the stage then drop and fair with no danger whatsoever.
I haven’t gotten to play against a Mario as Plant yet, but I can imagine that’s bad with all the fire balls and getting comboed/punished for not getting hit by them.
Plant doesn’t like getting rushed down and combo’d but it does have faster get off me moves than you’d expect. It’s just after a while the pattern of that character becomes super predictable. It does live forever though
Plant doesn’t like getting rushed down and combo’d but it does have faster get off me moves than you’d expect. It’s just after a while the pattern of that character becomes super predictable. It does live forever though
Dosent Plant have a frame 2 jab...that is something most other superheavies would kill for heh, So yeah Plant does have that for a "GTFO" option in needed
Yeah it’s ridiculous. And it’s grab range is deceiving so you can’t treat him like other super heavies that you’re usually safe on shield with. The thing is other than Plant’s spiky ball (that move is really good)and poison cloud situationally he doesn’t have many good moves. I guess his fsmash, Utilt, uair, and situationally bair are good but they all lack range (except for fsmash). And Plant’s movement is sooooo awkward (I guess that can be a positive for him in certain ways). His air speed and movement is also abysmal not to mention his endlag on his aerials and basically no autocancels. I don’t think Plant is a bad character but something feels off with them and I don’t really think Plant is a good character either
's in a precarious position in the meta. He's a very technical character who's well rounded but at the same time doesn't "player counterpick" very well, like SSB4 DK and Bowser. He's good enough to win with hard work yet outclassed by characters who have an easier time winning like Inkling and Wolf. There's not a good reason to play him other than dedicated preference. Top players probably won't pick him up when they can use someone better. I fear he'll fade into obscurity as the barely high tier who shows up in top 8s occasionally and never breaks outs.
Young Link shares many weaknesses with Diddy, yet has way slower frame data. I don’t get why he’s so popular, I still think Toon Link does what he does better, except for the fast aerial movement, which doesn’t always mean anything great in particular if it means his disadvantage is this bad. His air speed helps with N Air approaches, and follow ups from projectiles, but he puts himself in danger if it misses.
I legitimately think Diddy is better than Young Link. Time will tell if I’m right of course.
Yeah it’s ridiculous. And it’s grab range is deceiving so you can’t treat him like other super heavies that you’re usually safe on shield with. The thing is other than Plant’s spiky ball (that move is really good)and poison cloud situationally he doesn’t have many good moves. I guess his fsmash, Utilt, uair, and situationally bair are good but they all lack range (except for fsmash). And Plant’s movement is sooooo awkward (I guess that can be a positive for him in certain ways). His air speed and movement is also abysmal not to mention his endlag on his aerials and basically no autocancels. I don’t think Plant is a bad character but something feels off with them and I don’t really think Plant is a good character either
Plant's an awkward character because he WANTS you to approach him... BUT he also has no good way to force your approach. He also doesn't want you to get too close... and lacks a good way to get close to you...
See the problem? As long as you're not in his Mid-Range he's practically harmless... He's the fighter that requires you to be in the Friend-Zone and stay there.
So I’ve been thinking and I know this is kind of silly but since I’ve been playing Wolf a lot today to see if I like him I kind of think Ness is like a floaty Wolf. They’re both aggressive all arounders that can rush down but would rather have their opponent come to them and they have the tools to do it. They both have phenomenal air games and strings. They both have good zoning tools but their main purpose isn’t to zone. They both have mediocre recoveries. They both hit hard and rack up damage really fast. They both have reliable combos along with freestyle strings. The main difference other than Wolf being a fast faller and Ness floating like a feather is that Ness is a little bit more reliable at killing but not by much. Idk it might be a stupid comparison but I kind of found it interesting
I know Wolf has more range and better tilts and is a better zoner than Ness and Ness has PK Thunder and is probably a better juggler but I think they’re similar characters in a way. I think the physics of this game and the way the engine plays greatly benefits both of them which is why they’ve both been so successful when people initially thought neither of them would be that great
Camping in general is super problematic for Plant. I agree Samus is bad, but I think Mario is even worse for Plant.
Mario's fireballs completely shut down Plant and force him to approach, and Mario has the speed and frames to throttle Plant up close. Plant's best shot against Mario is to punish perfectly every time, hope they fall for the ball, maybe rack up some Poison damage... but from experience, seasoned Mario's are surprisingly consistent with caping the ball and poison even when mixed up.
Doesn't help Plant's normally good recovery feels like Ganon tier against someone who can lob fireballs freely from the stage then drop and fair with no danger whatsoever.
The Plant is weak against Mario's Fireballs? Very fitting if I say so myself.
Yeah, considering that there are 75 characters in the game, the plant does feel awkward and underwhelming the current moment. A character that wrecks you when you approach, but doesn't have a good way of forcing approaches. It's Poison Gas isn't like Cloud's Limit Charge in which it forces the opponent to approach you and play his game (for those who are wondering why I made the connection to Limit Charge, charging Poison Gas kind of feels like the same physics as charging limit, for whatever reason XD).
So I’ve been thinking and I know this is kind of silly but since I’ve been playing Wolf a lot today to see if I like him I kind of think Ness is like a floaty Wolf. They’re both aggressive all arounders that can rush down but would rather have their opponent come to them and they have the tools to do it. They both have phenomenal air games and strings. They both have good zoning tools but their main purpose isn’t to zone. They both have mediocre recoveries. They both hit hard and rack up damage really fast. They both have reliable combos along with freestyle strings. The main difference other than Wolf being a fast faller and Ness floating like a feather is that Ness is a little bit more reliable at killing but not by much. Idk it might be a stupid comparison but I kind of found it interesting
I know Wolf has more range and better tilts and is a better zoner than Ness and Ness has PK Thunder and is probably a better juggler but I think they’re similar characters in a way. I think the physics of this game and the way the engine plays greatly benefits both of them which is why they’ve both been so successful when people initially thought neither of them would be that great
Interesting connection. I remember the days that Wolf was considered to be simply mid tier and the low end of the stick in terms of spacies. Times have indeed changed (when considering that the meta still has barely any to time to develop, not too surprising).
So I’ve been thinking and I know this is kind of silly but since I’ve been playing Wolf a lot today to see if I like him I kind of think Ness is like a floaty Wolf. They’re both aggressive all arounders that can rush down but would rather have their opponent come to them and they have the tools to do it. They both have phenomenal air games and strings. They both have good zoning tools but their main purpose isn’t to zone. They both have mediocre recoveries. They both hit hard and rack up damage really fast. They both have reliable combos along with freestyle strings. The main difference other than Wolf being a fast faller and Ness floating like a feather is that Ness is a little bit more reliable at killing but not by much. Idk it might be a stupid comparison but I kind of found it interesting
I know Wolf has more range and better tilts and is a better zoner than Ness and Ness has PK Thunder and is probably a better juggler but I think they’re similar characters in a way. I think the physics of this game and the way the engine plays greatly benefits both of them which is why they’ve both been so successful when people initially thought neither of them would be that great
Yeah I can kinda see it. Their gameplan is to overall be opressive and control the neutral onstage rather than chase the opponent offstage and edgeaurd. They can ledgetrap pretty well with their Down-Smashes
Plant's an awkward character because he WANTS you to approach him... BUT he also has no good way to force your approach. He also doesn't want you to get too close... and lacks a good way to get close to you...
See the problem? As long as you're not in his Mid-Range he's practically harmless... He's the fighter that requires you to be in the Friend-Zone and stay there.
It would have been better if his poison cloud is a projectile that shoots out far that you can detonate at any time. That would help solve his approach forcing problem.
Yeah I can kinda see it. Their gameplan is to overall be opressive and control the neutral onstage rather than chase the opponent offstage in disadvantage. They can ledgetrap pretty well with their Down-Smashes
True I forgot about that they both have great ledgetrapping. Another simarity between them. I think that kind of gameplay is really good right now in this meta which is why Ness and Wolf are both shining. It’s not a perfect connection but they’re a lot more similar than people would initially think
Also Leffen said he’s gonna play Inkling or Pichu and completely optimize them, which I actually believe. I honestly think he loves Ultimate and he’s 100% in and he’ll be one of the best in the world and quicker than we think. He’s not dropping Ultimate anytime soon and it seems like it’s going to be his main game. I think his playstyle and the way he thinks about fighting games can really bring out more from these characters that are already doing well. I’m excited to see this. I know he’s cocky but he always backs it up and I really wanna see what he can do with Pichu
That Ike is throwing nairs out without any deliberate thought. Half of them weren't even going to hit the enemy if they stood still. Watch Leo's nairs, every single one is on the opponents head. The fox player wasn't punishing nair as much as he was punishing bad play, he could do the same thing if the Ike player was using peach fair, lucina nair or any other safe on block move, without proper thought into when to use the attack.
I have no way of verifying it, but that's the impression I get when I look at what they added to patches in Smash 4 which they then took away for Ultimate. The main example were all the hoo-hahs they gave, which I think was meant to expand kill options out of grabs. They for the most part no longer exist, and vertical KO lines were raised as if to discourage relying too much on getting kills up top, but some characters like Bowser instead got different ways of being grapplers.
Another example is the increased shield stun, which improved smash 4 in almost everyone's opinions. Weakening the effectiveness of shield seems to be a lesson they took to heart for Ultimate.
So.... It's been at least a few months since I last posted anything. I'm just going to come out and say that Plant is not even close to being optimized, as he is so new. He does have a hard time forcing approaches and just dealing with certain characters in general, but instead of ripping into it for it's flaws, I'm going to highlight some good things about the Plant. As it has already been mentioned on this thread, Plant has an amazing jab, f2, something that most heavies would die for. He also has the fastest grab in the game frame-data wise, and Down-tilt seems to have a deceptive range. D-tilt pops you into the air just like Pichu down-tilt, and is pretty fast and safe. Plant also has the Spike Ball, which I think is an amazing projectile, as it can kill, edgeguard, break combos, and just deals a lot of damage in general. I personally think that Spike Ball is better in terms of utility than the Belmont Axe, but the Axe complements the Belmonts' as a character more. Poison Cloud deals insane shield damage to the few characters it actually works on, and can hide the Plant while it charges a down-B, but the move is a let down overall. I feel that if poison cloud was not a projectile, Plant would be so much better off as a character, simply because you could deny a large portion of the stage to you opponent. That alone would probably make Plant jump a tier. Down-B has ridiculous range, and is a good edgeguarding tool, but it stretches Plant's hurtbox, making it easy to challenge, and it has lots of endlag. Plant overall feels a little weak, but with a few fixes to his air speed and Poison Cloud he could be very threatening in the right hands.
Man yea i can see now how can have trouble killing. I was trying out a while ago and played some sets vs a YL..yes he could zone and wall me with arrows and boomerang, yes he could combo and juggle the crud out of me, but as long as I played patiently and did not carelessly run into any Smash attacks, I was living past well past 200% on many stocks..he just could not finish me..lol.
After seeing Glutonny's Wario live to nearly 200% vs Tweek's Wolf I feel better about YL's KO power. But holy ****, Wario lives forever. He's really good.
They fill the same boat since they both a) can circle camp characters who either have problems approaching or a stronger approach, and b) can rush down characters with better zoning.
As far as C. Falcon goes, Fatality thinks he needs a slightly faster initial dash speed. Given the reduction of his grab momentum and nerfs to downthrow follow-ups, this might not be a bad idea. However it's always a scary proposition to give a character both S-tier grounded and aerial mobility, even one as flighty, flickery, and finicky.
Sora Namco might also want to consider giving him a combo tilt (likely down tilt.) Dash canceling really helps low-range, fast combo tilt's, and C. Falcon could use one of those. It's a bit puzzling why 64 up smash is the closest thing that he has had to a combo tilt. Melee down tilt's having too much endlag plus C. Falcon's having a decidedly average wavedash nullified its useful launch angle. That function is somewhat subsumed by grounded side b (a highly committal, read-based move) and down air (buffed in this game since teching and meteor canceling no longer affect it.)
After seeing Glutonny's Wario live to nearly 200% vs Tweek's Wolf I feel better about YL's KO power. But holy ****, Wario lives forever. He's really good.
Heh I consider Wario and Wolf sort of "gatekeppers" around High-tier, they can very well be considered top-tier comsidering thier results, but still not at the level of the Olimars , Foxes and Princesses out there
Iunno, this is good but Falco in 4 didnt make use of Nair in neutral the way this one does, nor Side-B proper. Smash 4 Falco also can't really dash dance and Falco's is quite good, with very high initial dash. In addition Falco's grabs here are like, totally redesigned and just....way better all around. I see your point though and don't disagree, but I think he has much more flexible options compared to 4 Falco which I think is my overall point.
I get that, but my beef is that as you noted, Falco has more flexible options and overall is more flexible now, especially in how he can move, but that doesn't mean he didn't lose the stuff he had from the previous games or that he changed drastically in this game. So, seeing Smash 4 Falco players not do things he can still do with Ultimate Falco is perplexing. New Falco players get a pass on this as they're picking him up for this game, but not for old Falco players.
Regarding his grabs, Falco's grabs, at least standing grab, were just noticeably worse for no reason. Smash 4 Falco's standing grab was frame 8. I get that Brawl Falco had chaingrabs, but that's not because of how fast his grab was where like in Ultimate, Brawl Falco's standing grab was frame 6. He had chaingrabs because the game did not account for grabbing that quickly from a throw among other things like grab release issues for some characters. Nah, let's prevent chaingrabs entirely in Smash 4, but also increase Falco's standing grab to frame 8. Not even frame 7, his Melee standing grab's startup, but frame 8.
If you're talking about his throws, namely U-throw, I think that's more of how fast he can jump now after U-throw. It has the same 32 recovery frames after he tosses you up, but now it takes him half as long to jump. There's also the whole how fast jumps cover distance thing which I don't know if that's true or not. U-throw did receive a change in that he shoots at frame 18 instead of 21 now.
Ffamran
since you're the resident Falco expert, do you know if Falco's Reflector still reflects on frame 1 like it did in Sm4sh? If so, that's another minor advantage Falco has over Wolf since the latters Reflector doesn't reflect until frame 10.
Look for " 下B (リフレクターシュート) " and the notes section says this:
反射：1-33F
反射ダメージ倍率：1.2倍
反射速度倍率：1.3倍
反射存在時間倍率：0.8倍
Which when translated through Google Translate is:
Reflection: 1-33 F
Reflection damage magnification: 1.2 times
Reflection speed magnification: 1.3 times
Reflection exiting time magnification: 0.8 times
I don't know what the last line means and part of me wants to say it's how Google might have translated it since I can't read Japanese. Anyway, I don't think the developers would have changed it since starting in Brawl when Falco's Reflector became what it is now, as this weird as hell let's kick a complex piece of technology to reflect things because of course that's a reasonable thing to do and not just hold it out in front of me like what Fox and Wolf do, it's always been a frame 1 reflect. Previously in Melee as Fox's clone, it used to reflect starting on frame 4.
Carrying over frame data isn't uncommon as developers need to settle on things in order to get things done. Tweaks will happen more frequently while overhauls would likely be reserved for extreme cases like if a move is really problematic or something and even then, you can still tweak a move to make it less problematic. In other words, simple number changes can result in major changes. Anyway, Falco having a frame 1 reflector could be argued as weird since even if you consider frame 1 as being too close or too risky, on frame 5 when its hit becomes active, that's still a fast reflector. Even more, Falco's reflector moves forward meaning it's not a static reflect like Mario's Cape and its range continues to increase until it's stopping point. This part I feel is one distinct advantage Falco has that the other characters with reflects don't and it's how close Falco can put a reflect in front of his opponent.
Careful reading on this as I don't mean how close Falco can reflect a projectile, but how close he can put a reflect between his opponent and their projectile. With projectiles not being as high on recovery compared to in Smash 4 and probably in the previous games, reflecting can sometimes be dangerous or might not result in anything. Even in Smash 4, that was a thing with Mewtwo who could reflect back a reflected charged Shadow Ball and with the damage multipliers, it's likely his opponent's reflect threshold was already broken or that they were still in their reflect's recovery to be able to do anything. Being able to pointblank reflect projectiles like Aura Sphere, Charge Shot, and Shadow Ball from a fair distance is huge for Falco. It's incredibly dangerous if Falco messes up or gets called out on it, but if he can land it, then his opponent cannot do anything about it. They are going to have something literally explode in their face. Granted, those characters are unlikely to throw them out all willy-nilly, especially if they can setup their projectiles, but in those clutch moments when Falco reads a strong projectile being used too close to him, he can cause a checkmate situation.
These qualities are why Falco's Reflector as a reflect is pretty damn good. That said, because it can't be sustained, it doesn't have invincibility, and it only reflects in front of him, and it doesn't do anything else like Dr. Mario's Sheet and Mario's Cape turning people around or Zelda's Nayru's Love having invincibility and good hitboxes kind of lets it act as a reversal for her, it's not strictly a better reflect move over the other ones.
Wolf's Reflector doesn't reflect until frame 10, making it require precise timing. I'd imagine he saw as a big commitment in a high pace/tense match up.
Dabuz is smart about not throwing out moves haphazardly, he likely knew this or was at least aware of the risk.
Wolf does have invincibility during frames 6 to 9, 4 i-frames, for his Reflector. That's 1 frame before the hitbox is active, on frame 7, and it's active until the frame it starts to reflect, starting on frame 10. So, Wolf does have a bit of protection when using Reflector even if it's not as fast as Fox's which also has invincibility on frames 2-3, 2 i-frames and Fox's Reflector hits on frame 3 and reflects starting on frame 4; or doesn't have as much range as Dr. Mario, Falco, Mario, the Pits, or Zelda where they put reflects out in front of them or in Zelda's case, Nayru's Love is pretty big and she also has invincibility during it.
Walking I feel like is something Falco can use to vary his movement more and as a way to throw off his opponent. If Falco is only running towards you, then you know how fast he's moving, but what if he starts to walk, just to walk or before or after running? Now the speed he's moving towards you is no longer constant. Add in dashing and Falco is moving quickly in short bursts and lengths in addition to running for fast, but sustained movement and walking, slightly slower and sustainable movement. Add in jumping, hopping, or even drifting around in the air. Falco's movement becomes more dynamic than it was if he was only running. Most people do all of that, but walk. It makes sense, though, since walking isn't that fast or is straight up slow for some characters and in Ultimate where you can do almost anything out of a dash or run, walking doesn't have that unique advantage anymore.
Despite that, walking does let you control spacing more since while you can do jabs, tilts, Smashes, etc. out of dashes and runs now, you do have to dash a minimum length before you can stop and when stopping or turning from a run, you will have to deal with a skid or a lengthier turnaround animation. One thing that comes to mind would be whiff punishing with Dtilt. Because it no longer has a disjoint, Falco doesn't have as much leeway when it comes to landing a Dtilt. Dashing back might cause Falco to be out of range for Dtilt, but walking back could let him control how far he moves more to keep Dtilt within range. That said, because dashes cover ground quickly, dashing back would probably be safer if you're trying to avoid something unlike with walking back.
While Falco runs faster in Ultimate, I feel like Falco shouldn't run unless he needs that kind of sustained movement like if he's chasing after someone that was launched across the stage. He should dash and walk more than he should run.
Now for something else, for those who check up on the Smash researches, have you seen the hitboxes they found and with the characters' Ultimate models instead of having to use their older ones? For example, Fox's Up Smash, Snake's Utilt, and Squirtle's Utilt? in Ultimate.
Fox Usmash hitbox visualization Model size multiplier is taken into consideration but it can be slightly different from actual size/position and interpolated range are not shown here.https://t.co/4fKgglajQSpic.twitter.com/IezPw5tXys
The progress they're making is freaking awesome. Also, personal thing, but I hate the term "hitbox visualization". They're just hitboxes as in "these are the hitboxes on Roy's jab". Then again, I'm the guy who hates the term "short hop" and "foxtrot". Hop and dash where dash is not run. Whatever, I digress.
So since I’ve been playing a ton of Wolf today I’ve realized how bad the Links matchup with Wolf (Link Link is fairly ok but YL definitely doesn’t like the matchup). Idk if this is gonna effect YL’s placing on tier lists or not especially if Wolf is considered a gatekeeper. I also don’t know how bad the matchup actually, I just know from what I played online YL can’t use projectiles (a good careful can probably do some zoning), gets outzoned by laser, and can’t approach because Wolf out ranges YL and YL doesn’t wanna be approaching anyway. Any thoughts on this?
Keep in mind this is from my own experience online today. Nothing serious and no particularly good YL players (well I don’t know if they were if the matchup is really as bad as it seems)
There are a worrying amount of people switching mains to Lucina, wolf and pichu right now.
Not worrying because of the characters themselves, worrying about how so many people are giving up trying to push their character any further and are nothing but slaves to the 'flavour of the month' meta. Its only 2 months in and so many characters are losing their best reps. Plenty of low and mid tier characters in smash 4 had the best players stick with them from the beginning, all the way to its end. This is just sad watching how many people are giving up already.
There are a worrying amount of people switching mains to Lucina, wolf and pichu right now.
Not worrying because of the characters themselves, worrying about how so many people are giving up trying to push their character any further and are nothing but slaves to the 'flavour of the month' meta. Its only 2 months in and so many characters are losing their best reps. Plenty of low and mid tier characters in smash 4 had the best players stick with them from the beginning, all the way to its end. This is just sad watching how many people are giving up already.
They want the best shot at winning. That’s the whole point. Can’t shame people trying to increase thier odds of winning by switching to a character that most likely will give them results.
There are a worrying amount of people switching mains to Lucina, wolf and pichu right now.
Not worrying because of the characters themselves, worrying about how so many people are giving up trying to push their character any further and are nothing but slaves to the 'flavour of the month' meta. Its only 2 months in and so many characters are losing their best reps. Plenty of low and mid tier characters in smash 4 had the best players stick with them from the beginning, all the way to its end. This is just sad watching how many people are giving up already.
I agree with this I'm thinking about giving Rosalina another chance since I didn't really put in too much work in without her. I was a little bum to see some of the one trick mains flocking to inkling and the like. I don't fault anyone but it's just a little lame to see. I mean if they didn't flock to prepatch diddy why not put in a bit of extra work.
I agree with this I'm thinking about giving Rosalina another chance since I didn't really put in too much work in without her. I was a little bum to see some of the one trick mains flocking to inkling and the like. I don't fault anyone but it's just a little lame to see. I mean if they didn't flock to prepatch diddy why not put in a bit of extra work.
I can relate to this, I got some people telling me I would be better off using because he can "actually space", but no way am I flocking to another character now that Roy is actually decently good this time. Unrelated but can't help but feel sorry for players, so many improvements yet she still doesn't quite cut it.
I can relate to this, I got some people telling me I would be better off using because he can "actually space", but no way am I flocking to another character now that Roy is actually decently good this time. Unrelated but can't help but feel sorry for players, so many improvements yet she still doesn't quite cut it.
Yeah but I'm not a character so loyalist so I'm probably just going to continue to ignore Rosa. But it is nice to see someone continue rock their mains.
They want the best shot at winning. That’s the whole point. Can’t shame people trying to increase thier odds of winning by switching to a character that most likely will give them results.
I just find it funny how people were like omg Genesis 6 had so much diversity! This game has such a bright future! Now everywhere you look are those three characters. I turned on twitch today, most of the pro streamers have the title 'New main!' and its either pichu or wolf.
There are a worrying amount of people switching mains to Lucina, wolf and pichu right now.
Not worrying because of the characters themselves, worrying about how so many people are giving up trying to push their character any further and are nothing but slaves to the 'flavour of the month' meta. Its only 2 months in and so many characters are losing their best reps. Plenty of low and mid tier characters in smash 4 had the best players stick with them from the beginning, all the way to its end. This is just sad watching how many people are giving up already.
Nothing worrying about it, those characters are all extremely easy to play and have strengths that produce consistent results.
Besides, i think alot of "character loyalists" would do good to play other characters (especially top and popular picks) to get some insight on WHY people do that, what they have that their loyal character doesn't, and how you can use that info to advantage.
People flocking to good characters is how every competitive meta works. Expecting people to struggle with their original "mains" when they can swap to a better/easier character and get the same results with a fraction of the effort is just unrealistic.
Falco stuff
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Despite that, walking does let you control spacing more since while you can do jabs, tilts, Smashes, etc. out of dashes and runs now, you do have to dash a minimum length before you can stop and when stopping or turning from a run, you will have to deal with a skid or a lengthier turnaround animation. One thing that comes to mind would be whiff punishing with Dtilt. Because it no longer has a disjoint, Falco doesn't have as much leeway when it comes to landing a Dtilt. Dashing back might cause Falco to be out of range for Dtilt, but walking back could let him control how far he moves more to keep Dtilt within range. That said, because dashes cover ground quickly, dashing back would probably be safer if you're trying to avoid something unlike with walking back.
While Falco runs faster in Ultimate, I feel like Falco shouldn't run unless he needs that kind of sustained movement like if he's chasing after someone that was launched across the stage. He should dash and walk more than he should run.
Falco's buttons are certainly good but i don't know how much practical benefit you can get from this level of microspacing. I was going to main him but in general, while he certainly feels improved, the thing that seems to lack in this game is any real identity. In Melee and Brawl, was able to play a really oppressive style of approach and zoning and had a definite strategy for his kills -- grabs, tech chases, spikes. He became somewhat of a brawler in Smash4 but we all know how well that worked in that game without the top-tier tools....that and his laser was complete trash. But here in Smash Ultimate, he seems to be in some kind of weak limbo.
Falco just doesn't have anything in this game, he has no real "niche". He's got combos but so does everyone else, he's strong in the air, but there are plenty of characters stronger...he's got a spike, but it's nowhere close to the best, his air speed isn't the best, he's great at edgeguarding but so are like 70% of the characters in the game at this point. He's got a relatively weak and still quite immobile projectile so he's not really winning any shooting matches, even against characters like Mario....all things considered, his buttons are good but not nearly good enough to stand out, certainly not in this game......
Funnily enough i feel like encompasses his original playstyle more than Falco himself, which is probably why people are flocking to him. Falco isn't bad, it's just that he doesn't really stand out in any significant way.
was the worst character in the game due to how his playstyle changed. I dropped to like 200k points and then past 3mil (or whatever Elite was at the time) once i "figured him out", and now he's one of my favorite characters in the game. I still say Metaknight is gonna end up sleeper tier.
