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Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

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  • Total voters
    585

Arthur97

Smash Master
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Jun 7, 2016
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Take most things commentators say with a grain of salt.

Can you even say Leo co mains Joker at this point? Seems to be more a secondary these days anyway. He just seems to prefer Byleth and only seems to bring him out for particularly troublesome matchups.

And, yes, is pretty clear now the Aegis sisters were not a game ending threat.
 
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Aligo

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Controversial opinion time. Aegis can't be the best you can't spam bairs to win like with other swordies. Seriously, like cloud would be not be played much at all without his bair.
 

Ziodyne 21

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So umm should be be talking about Kuramas performance at Ludwig Invitational.

He got in from LCQ and so far has beat.

Tea
Zackray
Gluttony
Sparg0
Kola

The only set he lost at to Dabuz
Kurama is now in winners semis

Kurama is having a insane breakout performance here is is making :ultmario: look like a competive meta threat again. At this rate it looking like MKleo and Kurama will have a Frostbite 2019 runback
 
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TCT~Phantom

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Speaking of big stories, Light had a bit of a rough weekend this weekend. Losing to Onin and Big D meant he was put in losers early. Zomba managed to clutch it out and send Light home at 13th. Obviously, Light is still a super strong player, but given how dominant he was and how he was the top seed it was an under performance.
 

StrangeKitten

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So umm should be be talking about Kuramas performance at Ludwig Invitational.

He got in from LCQ and so far has beat.

Tea
Zackray
Gluttony
Sparg0
Kola

The only set he lost at to Dabuz
Kurama is now in winners semis

Kurama is having a insane breakout performance here is is making :ultmario: look like a competive meta threat again. At this rate it looking like MKleo and Kurama will have a Frostbite 2019 runback
I mean, Mario never went anywhere. Nor did the other top tiers you don't see as much these days. Mario still has amazing frame data and combos, sorta heavy with a pretty great recovery, strong edgeguarding tools in FLUDD and cape. Mario is still just as cracked as he ever was.
 

StrangeKitten

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Seeing MKLeo systematically dismantle acola and denying him of everything that Steve likes to do in advantage and neutral is the most sobering reminder of how Japan reveres the opportunity of being able to beat him.
No offense to acola, but with how hot Leo's been playing, this is what I was hoping to see. I'm of the opinion that Steve isn't as unbeatable as we currently think, he's just a very tricky MU to learn. Looks like we're seeing strong signs that the counterplay is indeed there.
 

The_Bookworm

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MkLeo has yet to drop a single game this tournament, and most of his games are won in dominant fashion. After being gone for a while after his underperformance at Summit, he came back to play the best he has played in a long time.

In related news, we are about to see acola vs Onin soon, the duel between the two best Steves in the world. Perhaps the title of #1 Steve can be decided there?
 

Ziodyne 21

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We are getting a Frostbite Leo vs Kurama runback. What is even this timeline?

Kurama is the GOAT of Ludwig Invitational for sure coming from LCO to bet several top players in the world to face the #1 in WF.

I wonder why Shuton did not try Agies vs Kurama in the fight. Then again Kurama has been beating lots of swordies this tournament and both Pyra/Mythra may really hate both FLUDD and Cape so...
 
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Rizen

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We are getting a Frostbite Leo vs Kurama runback. What is even this timeline?

Kurama is the GOAT of Ludwig Invitational for sure coming from LCO to bet several top players in the world to face the #1 in WF.

I wonder why Shuton did not try Agies vs Kurama in the fight. Then again Kurama has been beating lots of swordies this tournament and both Pyra/Mythra may really hate both FLUDD and Cape so...
I agree swords are the way to go vs Mario. I've used Wolf, YL and Link as my tournament team and like to go Link vs Doc and Mario. A big sword is very helpful in that MU especially since Mario's so good against projectiles with cape.
 

Ziodyne 21

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Well Kurama was the one player so far to Take a game of MKLeo at least and even then all of the sets were Prerty close. Kurama was the only player that Leo did not straight up dominate in the set

But seriously Kurama has been the big breakout star of Ludwig Invitational for sure
 
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Frihetsanka

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Some things we learned from this:

MkLeo is definitely the #1 player.

acola is most likely the #2 player.

Sparg0 is another contender for #2, but for now he's probably #3.

Kurama is really good and easily the best Mario right now.

Steve is really good but doesn't quite seem to be the Smash 4 Bayonetta of this game.

Kazuya is also really good but not the Smash 4 Bayonetta of this game.
 

Idon

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It really is just a wonder to see like Riddles's Kazuya and Acola's Steve straight up killing off of a few interactions but the absolute winner of this entire tournament, in a dominant fashion, is just someone who wins neutral over and over and over again.

You have to ask "How did you survive that!?"
and we all know the answer "He's just that good."
 
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The_Bookworm

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Ludwig Smash Invitational

1st: MkLeo:ultbyleth::ultmythra::ultjoker:
2nd: acola:ultsteve:
3rd: Kurama:ultmario:
4th: Sparg0:ultcloud::ultmythra:
5th: Shuton:ultmythra::ultolimar:
5th: Onin:ultalex:
7th: Sonix:ultsonic:
7th: Kola:ultroy:
9th: Glutonny:ultwario:
9th: Riddles:ultkazuya::ult_terry:
9th: Zomba:ultrob:
9th: Big D:ulticeclimbers:
13th: Tweek:ultdiddy::ultsephiroth:
13th: Dabuz:ultrosalina::ultminmin:ultalph:
13th: Light:ultfox:
13th: Asimo:ultryu:


17th: Cosmos:ultmythra:
17th: Tea:ultpacman:
17th: DDog:ultsteve:
17th: Jakal:ultwolf:
17th: Sisqui:ultdarksamus:
17th: Maister:ultgnw:
23rd: Scend:ultness:
23rd: Chag:ultpalutena:
23rd: Zackray:ultjoker:
23rd: KEN:ultsonic:
23rd: Myran:ultolimar:
23rd: MFA:ultolimar:
29th: Marss:ultjoker::ultzss:
29th: Goblin:ultroy:
29th: MuteAce:ultpeach:
29th: Lima:ultbayonetta1:


Overall summary of the tournament: MkLeo destroys everyone.
 

Rizen

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Some things we learned from this:

MkLeo is definitely the #1 player.

acola is most likely the #2 player.

Sparg0 is another contender for #2, but for now he's probably #3.

Kurama is really good and easily the best Mario right now.

Steve is really good but doesn't quite seem to be the Smash 4 Bayonetta of this game.

Kazuya is also really good but not the Smash 4 Bayonetta of this game.
Light had a bad showing today but I wouldn't count him out as the #2 player. Keep in mind he outperformed Leo and Acola at Summit.
 

Frihetsanka

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Light had a bad showing today but I wouldn't count him out as the #2 player. Keep in mind he outperformed Leo and Acola at Summit.
I don't think it's going to be too close between acola and Light. In the last 13 offline tournaments Acola has attended, he's won 10 of them (including The Gimvitational), with a 4th place at Summit, 2nd at Ludwig, and 4th at Maesuma Offline. For Light's most recent 13 tournaments, he's won 4 of them (Board The Platforms, Mash Harder 3, MomCon 2022, and Glitch - Regen). Granted, generally places in the top 4 otherwise.

I think Light, as a player, is sometimes too impatient, which makes him lose sets to players he could've won versus if he played more patiently. He's obviously still one of the best players in the world and a contender for top 3 (I think Sparg0 is the better player but he hasn't gone to many tournaments recently, his results this year are pretty amazing still, but that's last PGR season now).

Japan didn't dominate quite as much as one would've thought but Shuton and acola still showed us that Japan is likely the strongest region. It's a bit unfortunate that so few international players are willing to travel to Japan, so most supermajors end up in the US for some reason. I think it would be really cool to see a Japanese major that also had some NA and EU players.

Also, Shuton has pretty much cemented himself as a top 10 player at this point in time.
 

toonito

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looking from the outside in it seems like :ultbyleth::ultmythra::ultjoker:are the most optimal picks for Leo going forward

Kurama is insane

great tourney
 
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Sucumbio

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Some things that struck me... Aegis being reserved by mkleo and sparg0 for facing Sonic was nifty if not a bit dull compared to their other matches. Cloud vs Steve is not a bad mu. Onin is unfamiliar with fighting the mirror, and everyone forgot how to face Byleth after he stopped using them lol. Overall great tournament, I would love it if this became annual... Biggest surprise was Kurama. Amazing Mario, very aggressive.
 
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NairWizard

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Some things we learned from this:

MkLeo is definitely the #1 player.

acola is most likely the #2 player.
Coming back to this, I looked at their tourney results, and I think that even if invitationals are counted, acola still has #1 results right now. If the season ended today, he'd finish first. Leo has to outperform acola at SWT and/or Panda Cup to cement a #1 this season (which is certainly doable). Pretty interesting to think about given the dominance of this weekend.

Also, where's the Mario discussion? I think this is a character that we haven't talked about in a long time. How are people feeling watching Kurama?
 
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StrangeKitten

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Coming back to this, I looked at their tourney results, and I think that even if invitationals are counted, acola still has #1 results right now. If the season ended today, he'd finish first. Leo has to outperform acola at SWT and/or Panda Cup to cement a #1 this season (which is certainly doable). Pretty interesting to think about given the dominance of this weekend.

Also, where's the Mario discussion? I think this is a character that we haven't talked about in a long time. How are people feeling watching Kurama?
It's been the consensus that Mario is top tier for years now, and Kurama reminded us why. Having stubby range and some difficulty killing aren't the most detrimental of weaknesses when he has some of the best frame data, combos, and great survivability.
 

Sucumbio

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I lost to a Mario in a local ...Mario is .. very taxing to battle, especially if you don't respect his persistent combo threat because he's got so many starters it's frankly scary.
 

NotLiquid

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Mario feels like he shares an adjacent archetype as Fox, key difference being that he trades easy kill setups at high percents for having a greater range of kill deviations.

In a top tier capacity I think that's something that historically strikes fear into people. It's kind of an unspoken reason as to why Pikachu was once thought to be a competitive menace. Even top tiers like Steve tend to have a trajectory where he's still going to have to set up an extensive combo or advantage state to push so that his Diamond KO moves or up smashes can cinch a kill. Mario's just that kind of guy where if he reads your option right, eating huge damage is just the best case scenario. Worst case scenario is you lose your stock at the ledge at 50%, and not that all of the top tiers haven't had their moments under the sun getting early kills against opponents; it just feels like this happens way more frequently with Mario, maybe more with MKLeo Byleth.

He might be one of the scariest characters to face on the ledge for that reason. Many characters will have an easier time catching an opponent's get-up or reset attempt but few will be able to convert into such a devastating advantage state.
 

Ziodyne 21

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Mario feels like he shares an adjacent archetype as Fox, key difference being that he trades easy kill setups at high percents for having a greater range of kill deviations.

In a top tier capacity I think that's something that historically strikes fear into people. It's kind of an unspoken reason as to why Pikachu was once thought to be a competitive menace. Even top tiers like Steve tend to have a trajectory where he's still going to have to set up an extensive combo or advantage state to push so that his Diamond KO moves or up smashes can cinch a kill. Mario's just that kind of guy where if he reads your option right, eating huge damage is just the best case scenario. Worst case scenario is you lose your stock at the ledge at 50%, and not that all of the top tiers haven't had their moments under the sun getting early kills against opponents; it just feels like this happens way more frequently with Mario, maybe more with MKLeo Byleth.

He might be one of the scariest characters to face on the ledge for that reason. Many characters will have an easier time catching an opponent's get-up or reset attempt but few will be able to convert into such a devastating advantage state.

Well it goes a bit further than that Fox does a lot better vs swordies/ big disjoints since he has the speed to easily close the gap and manuver around swords to get right in. Meanwhile Mario was a lot more survivability being heavier and having a overall better recovery. As you said Mario is also much scarier at the ledge than Fox.


Also Mario's Dair is actullay kind of crazy. I guess it gets left out when discussing the button becuase Marios Dair basically functions unlike any other in the game but what it does it does amazingly.

Kurama definetly made amazing use of it at Ludwig. It's quick and effective combo ender and a surprisingly good kill option despite not normally killing until around 160-70 unless landed in the upper blast zone area. But the fact that it can be easily set up also matter what percent the opponent is makes it very dangerous
 
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Hydreigonfan01

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OrionStats update
 

Frihetsanka

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Some notable changes: Aegis up to #3 from #5. Mario up to #11, I don't remember what we was before but he was lower. Also interesting that they're listed as Aegis rather than Mythra/Pyra like they used to, the term "Aegis" seems well-established at this point (sounds less cursed than Pythra so I approve).

Pikachu at #42 and Pichu at #43 is oddly fitting. Imagine if Pichu ends up overtaking Pikachu... ESAM recently made a video where he made a top 10 tournament character tier list, as in the best 10 characters. Generally, ESAM makes his tier lists based on what people should be doing, so this would include things such as advance tech, proper DI/SDI etc, but in actual tournaments, even at top level, people mess up. He mentions that Pikachu isn't a particularly tournament friendly character and not a top 10 character in tournaments. So his list, in no particular order, is: Steve, Sonic, Kazuya, Samus, ROB, Roy, Joker, Pac-Man, Snake, Aegis.

It is something worth keeping in mind when you're looking at a tier list. Is this a tier list based on theoretical potential? Or does it take tournaments into account?

Going back to OrionStats, it would be interesting to see how many points the #1 player of each character has contributed. How much of Min Min is Protobanham? Samus and Sisqui? And so on.
 

Frihetsanka

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The gap between 1 and 2 is larger than the rest through 13 lol Steve wins tournaments.
Well... acola has kind of been dominating Japan recently, and you also have Onin, Jake, DDog, DDee, and yonni getting good results. I don't think any other character has such a solid top 6. Maybe ROB? Even then, you'd get maybe four/five on that level (Anathema, BigBoss, WaDi, Zomba, Epic_Gabriel).

Given recent trends, I don't think Steve should be banned. Things could still change and I might change my mind in the future, but right now he seems quite a bit worse than Smash 4 Bayonetta and maybe even worse than Smash 4 Cloud (not sure about that one, he's more versatile than Cloud though).
 

Sucumbio

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Well... acola has kind of been dominating Japan recently, and you also have Onin, Jake, DDog, DDee, and yonni getting good results. I don't think any other character has such a solid top 6. Maybe ROB? Even then, you'd get maybe four/five on that level (Anathema, BigBoss, WaDi, Zomba, Epic_Gabriel).

Given recent trends, I don't think Steve should be banned. Things could still change and I might change my mind in the future, but right now he seems quite a bit worse than Smash 4 Bayonetta and maybe even worse than Smash 4 Cloud (not sure about that one, he's more versatile than Cloud though).
Meteor canceling is the last new tech I saw that evoked any such reaction by the crowd though I've also heard something about making handicapped stocks vs Steve and Kazuya lol lame
 

StrangeKitten

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Playing :ultbanjokazooie: a lot lately, I noticed trying to get a grab feels so clunky. Maybe I'm just spoiled by :ultsonic: :ultbowser: :ultdk: and :ultincineroar:, but man, it feels notably worse as poor Banjo. I wouldn't have found myself in such situations to begin with if he had a safe kill option at 140+ so I didn't find myself looking for down or back throw so often, but alas.
 

The_Bookworm

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Well... acola has kind of been dominating Japan recently, and you also have Onin, Jake, DDog, DDee, and yonni getting good results. I don't think any other character has such a solid top 6.
Funny you should bring that up.


I recently watched a PGStats video on the most popular characters in Ultimate's history.
There was something interesting that was brought up during the Steve segment of the video.
According to data from the previous season (first-half of 2022), is that in terms of Steve player contributions:

Japan
acola - 68 - 17.2%
USA
Jake - 55 - 13.9%
USA
Yonni - 46 - 11.7%
USA
DDog - 28 - 7.1%
USA
Onin - 26 - 6.6%
USA
DDee - 21 - 5.3%
Spain
Tropped - 19 - 4.8%
Puerto Rico
Chokeyuken - 9 - 2.3%
France
Gogesta - 9 - 2.3%
USA
DM - 8 - 2%

Obviously this point distribution is going to change for the current season, as this is from last season.

However, there is one very interesting point about this list that is pointed out in the video:
6/10 of the top 10 Steve mains in terms of results are all from USA, with 5/6 of the top 6 being from USA. If you think about the high level Steves in the second-half of 2022, that isn't much different.

From what I can gather, no other very popular character has their top 10 top player count being almost exclusively one region, especially towards the upper-half of the list, and there is also the fact that none of them hold the #1 title of highest Steve results with acola holding the title.

It is funny looking at that chart and realizing how little high level Steve players are actually outside of the USA. Apparently, the character has just an insanely large amount of representation at high level in USA and no where else.
We all know how powerful acola's Steve is in Japan, but then you realize that Japan has a complete lack of high level Steve players outside of him. Same with other regions, who additionally lacks any sort of top 50 caliber player that plays Steve.




In terms of Steve players making it to the PGR, acola is definitely within the top 5 (likely #2 in the world right now) and Onin is likely somewhere within the top 20. Jake and DDog still places pretty well (Jake has greater peaks while DDog is much more active), so these two are safe bets to be in.

However, yonni has sadly been placing poorly in tournaments this season (which is something that he brought up himself) and DDee hasn't participated in any tournaments (according to SmashWiki) since MomoCon back at May.

So unless we are counting some weird fringe off-hand secondary someone may have, seems like we will have 4 Steves in the PGR this season, which seems like a reasonable amount considering the controversies around the character.
 

Rocketjay8

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I’m also quite bored, so I might as well do my opinions on the MU’s as Hero.

:ulthero: Vs. :ultyounglink:: Quite an odd MU. While it is quite clear that Hero should win on paper, Hero can have some struggle with Young Link. The main objective for Young Link is to smother Hero at mid range projectiles and box him most of the match in order to prevent Hero from buffing. Hero on the other hand is mainly trying to fish for bounce and approach/bait aerials, spacing with forward air and getting early edge guards with acceleratle. The main issue is fire arrow. It can reliable force Hero out of menu, and it is possible to get bounce in menu, but fire arrows interrupt you before you can identify bounce is there. This leads to Hero needing to win neutral at least once or twice to get his buffs, but as you said, Yink has the best neutral in the game so it can be a tall order for Hero if he doesn’t wanna eat all his mana. Not to mention that when Hero does get a chance to obtain buffs, he has a tough choice. Obtain buffs, or edge guard? Hero is excellent at edgeguarding Yink, with giant disjoints beating up B like fair, bair, dair, and zap spells. He also could do ledgedrop kaswoosh at like 50% and kill Yink. Yet that’s also risky. If the Yink mixes his recovery, Hero gets a net MP loss due to needing to recover and also dealing with ledge traps. But when hero gets going, he gets going. Hero can reliably camp him when he has the lead with excellent projectiles and menu spells, Yinks approaches are very predictable in general and Hero has one of the best anti-approaching tools in the game (Frizzle, zap, zapple, forward tilt, jab, retreating bair and fair). He is also quite capable of making a comeback. Due to Yinks struggle with killing, and Heros ridiculous kill power, Yink will often get Hero to the late 150%’s to 170%’s, forcing them kill with weak nairs and forward throws. Hero can start killing Yink as low as... 30%? If Hero can get both damage buffs he can easily condition shield. Forcing a Young Link to leave shield is extremely powerful, and it leads to Hero being able to just spam fair and bair since they will kill at 50%. That’s not even mentioning the million other kill options Hero will have against Young link, (decently easy edgeguards. Kazan reads, snooze, half of menu in general).

There’s not even a point going over acceleratle. With it active he is the best character in the game...


:ulthero: Vs.:ultbyleth:: This one is quite easy to explain in one sentence. “Onstage good, offstage bad.” Hero has a decent neutral against Byleth, surprisingly. While he has much less Sword reach than Byleth, zapple and projectiles easily beat areadbhar moves. Hero still does have the range to space out Up B as well. Hero also has decent speed, so he can run into Byleth and shield to mess with his spacing, forcing Byleth into an unfavorable scrapping situation. Not even nair can save Byleth, as it is punishable by woosh, (Nair is -10, woosh is frame 7) Once Hero is offstage Byleth can easily edge guard kaswoosh, though not zoom. Hero on the other hand struggles with traditional edge guarding. Instead, he can ledgedrop kaswoosh and confirm into a Bair for an easy kill. However Byleth can wait offstage and reel in once kaswoosh finishes. Hero can instead read this with swoosh, which will hit Byleth as swoosh falls. There is still more to be said, but it generally falls along normal MU stuff (ie. How well can Byleth ledge trap Hero, can Byleth kill Hero early, etc...)


:ulthero: Vs. :ultganondorf:: This is probably one of the worst MU’s for Ganon, period. Hero can spam zap almost comically easily. I do not joke when I say that it is possible to beat Ganon with only zap, throws, and fair, without even breaking a sweat. Zap beats EVERYTHING. I am not exaggerating. Ganon has no option that can beat it, nor can he punish it OOS. Ganon simply can’t get it. If he does get in however, Hero can lose very quickly. Ganon can ledgetrap and edge guard Hero reliably with Down tilt and fair, barring zoom. But... that’s about it. Hero can also do that, alongside every character in the game. He can ledgedrop kaswoosh and kill ganon at 20%.

Acceleratle.

I don’t really know what to say about this beyond just, it’s Ganon. Beating Ganon is just something that nearly everybody does.

:ulthero: Vs:ultkrool:: Another decently easy MU. One of the few characters Hero can straight out frame data and combo, Hero hits K rool and doesn’t let him go. Neutral is quite easy for Hero, since crown armor, a usually good tool, is entirely beaten by Zapple and frizzle, some of the most common spells thrown out. When the King does get his mitts on Hero though, he can really dig in and beat on Hero. Heros poor options from ledge allows K rool to abuse him at ledge. However, Hero can do so as well, and edge guard him better. Down air cleanly beats up b, ledgedrop kaswoosh is ridiculously easy, and ledge trapping K rool is predictablely easy.

Bounce is decently easy to find and abuse, krippling the poor kremlin king and his neutral. Acceleratle. Oomph and psych up can be big trouble for K rool due to up air combos. Hero can do a down throw up air, up air, up air, up air for something like 40% base.

Acceleratle

Overall a pretty good MU for Hero, but with some frightening moments.

Thoughts?
This character was really left in the dust to be forgotten about, huh? He was the character that was public enemy number one due to how "insane" his menu is and good his specials are and how bull**** his rng is. In reality, he's yet another mid-tier character that while he has good specials (although neutral/down b are very overrated) is way too reliant on rng to be good, has some of the most mid normals in the game, and has an inconsistent game plan.
 
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StrangeKitten

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This character was really left in the dust to be forgotten about, huh? He was the character that was public enemy number one due to how "insane" his menu is and good his specials are and how bull**** his rng is. In reality, he's yet another mid-tier character that while he has good specials (although neutral b is very overrated) is way too reliant on rng to be good, has some of the most mid normals in the game, and has an inconsistent game plan.
He's also more floaty than one would like, making his disadvantage pretty bad if he doesn't have the rare Acceleratle boost. I played him for a few days recently, and this stuck out to me as the biggest weakness.
 

Linkmain-maybe

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He's also more floaty than one would like, making his disadvantage pretty bad if he doesn't have the rare Acceleratle boost. I played him for a few days recently, and this stuck out to me as the biggest weakness.
If you anticipate someone chasing you down in the air (E.g Chrom goes for an up air overextension) you can use up B charge 2 (swoosh) to get them off of you. If it misses, you still have really good drift, far more than he has normally, so you can try to mix up where exactly you will land, or just go to ledge if the opponent isn’t fast enough.

Worst case scenario you eat a smash attack or get knocked back up, and considering you would be up there for a long time anyway, it’s definitely worth the gamble in most situations. It can also mess with people shielding underneath you.
 

Aligo

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 12, 2021
Messages
535
Also I will add that since fair and bair are pretty slow, Nair can be good when pressed since it is faster, though that is only from experience in friendlies.
 

Linkmain-maybe

Smash Ace
Joined
May 14, 2021
Messages
690
Switch FC
SW-1042-6735-2236
In general Hero is going to lose to close quarters pressure because his only good OOS (up b), becomes stale enough to be unsafe on hit for mid to fast fallers. Especially since grounded up b has higher knockback on floatier characters, Fox can punish a fresh Up B if he DI’s towards Hero, even if Hero drifts out as much as possible. This is generally why Hero prefers plats, since without them many characters with burst side B’s and fast falls can punish Hero for doing the only thing he can.

The only characters I would say that Hero can pressure reliably with Sword are those who lack decent range, like Young Link and Mii brawler. If anything the sword moves just lose to zap in utility most of the time, so I would say that most of the time it’s better to try to use zap over spacing a sword move, especially because zap has one of the best disjoints in the game.
 
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