Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Sucumbio]

That is... interesting. Hmm... Lol ok. But I like watching DLC pass 2 characters. I feel like banning any or all of them right now is premature but for experiment's sake I suppose it could attract some attention.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Welcome to No Neutral November! We will be experimenting character bans for the entire month at Shockwave, here is the schedule! If you main the banned character, don’t fret, you have free entry if you feel like coming! pic.twitter.com/X8ize5PEvd

— Tourney Locator (@tourneylocator) November 1, 2022

Oh boy, I can't wait until it's rob and sonic city for this tourney.

Seriously, why did they ban seph, banjo, and sora?

The issues of banning characters that are dominating tournaments has always been a contentious issue filled in a bottomless sea of controversy

I mean there were the whole long debates about banning Brawl MK, Smash 4 Bayo and Smash 4 Cloud in doubles out of fear they would completely dominate the meta . But then there was major backlash that stopped the banning attempts , then characters indeed completely took over their respective competive metas making it boring and unfun to watch .Which made everyone complain that they were NOT banned.

I am not saying Steve or Kazuya are as bad or dominating s any of the examples mentioned . But I can get any some tourney organizers want to at least experiment with the idea

 

[Rocketjay8]

The issues of banning characters that are dominating tournaments has always been a contentious issue filled in a bottomless sea of controversy

I mean there were the whole long debates about banning Brawl MK, Smash 4 Bayo and Smash 4 Cloud in doubles. But then there was major backlash that stopped the banning attempts , then characters indeed completely took over their respective competive metas making it boring and unfun to watch .Which made everyone complain that they were NOT banned.

I am not saying Steve or Kazuya are as bad or dominating s any of the examples mentioned . But I can get any some tourney organizers want to at least you with the idea

My beef is characters like sephiroth and sora getting banned. This in if itself is not a bad idea at all. Doing this is significantly more productive than complaining all the time.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

plz delete

 

[Rocketjay8]

It would've been better if they experimented with the stage list for a month instead of doing this.

 

[blackghost]

Welcome to No Neutral November! We will be experimenting character bans for the entire month at Shockwave, here is the schedule! If you main the banned character, don’t fret, you have free entry if you feel like coming! pic.twitter.com/X8ize5PEvd

— Tourney Locator (@tourneylocator) November 1, 2022

Oh boy, I can't wait until it's rob and sonic city for this tourney.

Seriously, why did they ban byleth, terry, seph, banjo, and sora?

Gotta keep these banjos under control or they will run wild.

This particular scene will be very be rob city this is Lima's local.

I'd rather just see an event with a completely different stage list or minimal items than deleting characters or stage transition.

Also this isn't some niche scene in Spain banning a character Like they did bayonetta in 4. This is a rather large local that gets plenty of views. Also this scene is dominated by Ness and the best bayonetta player in the world and some elite wolfs anyway I believe they don't even have a dlc 2 user. (Which is why this even could have happened)

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Well for the one with No DLC whatever yeah it kill likely be ROB, Sonic and Maybe Roy that will be dominat. But for the ones that ban Steve and/or Kazuya it should not be too much different. I mean I may say Aegis would dominant but honestly they are becoming less popular among the general toruament goers

 

[Sucumbio]

I fail to see how doing this will prove anything.

Like, in a world where this is the new rules after 6 months maybe Light dominates or Dabuz. But prolly still mkleo with corrin or something..... Actually.

Ok how did the rankings and what not and "who's best" look like before DLC for instance and then ppl got them one at a time and either dropped them and learned counterplay or mained them.

Now with the full roster and a bunch of ppl mad at Steve it's like oh well delete him and Kazuya too and actually min min and hero and actually all of them!

.... Salty much? This is a true git good moment until I see two or three more majors that end in acola vs onin (sic)

 

[Arthur97]

Eh, it's likely just going to be a one month thing. Not that bad.

I actually wouldn't mind seeing specialized roster events. Like all 64, all Mario series, just fun little stuff. Probably better as a side event.

 

[Sucumbio]

Probably better as a side event.

This.

And to be fair, sigh... I get some feel somehow Steve and Kazuya are unfair to fight against because of their unique characteristics and therefore in general this will skew the meta into learning only how to defeat two characters. But I don't believe one month of mini data can answer if that's the case. 3 more months of Steve "dominating" isn't a hard ask let the new year start with some decisions after apex etc.

 

[Cheryl~]

Gotta keep these banjos under control or they will run wild.

This particular scene will be very be rob city this is Lima's local.

I'd rather just see an event with a completely different stage list or minimal items than deleting characters or stage transition.

Also this isn't some niche scene in Spain banning a character Like they did bayonetta in 4. This is a rather large local that gets plenty of views. Also this scene is dominated by Ness and the best bayonetta player in the world and some elite wolfs anyway I believe they don't even have a dlc 2 user. (Which is why this even could have happened)

Over the past year or so DFW has changed from the scene of Ness/Bayo/ROBs to the scene absolutely full of Steve/Kazuya/ROBs (funny that ROB was the one who stuck, curious...), hosting yonni notably for Steves and Brr for Kazuya. As someone who does a bit of Twitter-ing, I have seen firsthand how some DFW players do not enjoy the uprising of Steve/Kazuya in their locals. I don't know if it's enough to ban them, but for a month it is surely an interesting experiment, especially if they offer compensation to the "banned" character players.

 

[Sucumbio]

I mean wolf dominated one scene with weekly releases of fox wolf or even fox ditto lol I don't remember a wolf ditto but yeah rob showed up once but these days I have no idea how many steves have showed up or if possible people are eschewing him for fear of hate

Edit Jakal iirc

 

[blackghost]

Over the past year or so DFW has changed from the scene of Ness/Bayo/ROBs to the scene absolutely full of Steve/Kazuya/ROBs (funny that ROB was the one who stuck, curious...), hosting yonni notably for Steves and Brr for Kazuya. As someone who does a bit of Twitter-ing, I have seen firsthand how some DFW players do not enjoy the uprising of Steve/Kazuya in their locals. I don't know if it's enough to ban them, but for a month it is surely an interesting experiment, especially if they offer compensation to the "banned" character players.

the fact that this scene gives time of day to some scrubs on Twitter is so wierd to me. and like most locals they arent dominated by character they are dominated by players. lima, jakal, (one upon a time awestin), brr and yonni. its not like a new steve shows up every week and goes to grand finals. as far as i can tell there is only ONE kazuya player. and one noteworthy steve. like how soft are we becoming?

its interesting to me that it appears the mid level kazuya and steve players have heavily out worked and out-studied their counterparts because initially these characters were not getting results. now these players want to delete their progress because they've made none. its disgusting.

the other thing that's dangerous is if they see a notably increase in viewership other scenes might do this just to get their scenes noticed

 

[Frihetsanka]

It's been a while since we saw a new top level Steve emerge, so... Maybe on Port Priority 7? Yophey, a labber and YouTuber who posts quite a few hype Steve clips, is attending his first tournament. It would be interesting to see if he can make any upsets, I don't think it's too improbably given that he did pretty well against ESAM in a first to ten.

 

[Aligo]

In all honesty there probably needs to be a community outreach project directly to Nintendo. The PvP community did so and were able to get from soft to go out of their comfort zone and thus change multiplayer for the better. Given the size of the smash community, I am sure it is possible for pro players and bracket organizers to go forth and do the same thing. We won't be getting a new smash for a good long while, so the meta needs to be kept healthy.

Will post link to site setup when I find it.

 

[st0pnsw0p]

Also this scene is dominated by Ness and the best bayonetta player in the world and some elite wolfs anyway I believe they don't even have a dlc 2 user. (Which is why this even could have happened)

This is straight up false. Both Yonni and Brr, the Kazuya main, are from that region. Not only that, Brr is also the TO who decided on this experimental ban.

the other thing that's dangerous is if they see a notably increase in viewership other scenes might do this just to get their scenes noticed

"Dangerous"? Really? Come on, this is just a different flavor of the same sort of emotional fearmongering as when people complain about how Steve and Kazuya are killing the game.

 

[Arthur97]

In all honesty there probably needs to be a community outreach project directly to Nintendo. The PvP community did so and were able to get from soft to go out of their comfort zone and thus change multiplayer for the better. Given the size of the smash community, I am sure it is possible for pro players and bracket organizers to go forth and do the same thing. We won't be getting a new smash for a good long while, so the meta needs to be kept healthy.

Will post link to site setup when I find it.

Considering the dev team has outright disbanded apparently, and this is Nintendo we're talking about, don't get your hopes up about that. Smash community has virtually no power over them.

 

[Aligo]

Considering the dev team has outright disbanded apparently, and this is Nintendo we're talking about, don't get your hopes up about that. Smash community has virtually no power over them.

I find that really strange to be honest, you would think they would pay attention to such a big title.
Let's hope ultimate doesn't end up like this:

 

[Arthur97]

Really? It's not like it isn't already massively successful and these issues don't matter as much to the much larger casual audience. At this point, keeping on, or worse, rehiring a dev team just for balance adjustments doesn't seem like a particularly sound financial decision. Especially with the most balanced Smash game. This isn't really a service game like LoL.

 

[Rocketjay8]

Dabuz should fully commit to and drop . I think that there is so much unexplored stuff that he hasn't scratched the surface that could possibly elevate this character to great heights. Look what happened when Mkleo and Tweek Stoped with the silly character crisis and stuck to what worked.

 

[Frihetsanka]

The fear is understandable, given what happened in Smash 4 and Brawl. Even then, right now it seems like neither Steve nor Kazuya are nearly as dominant as Smash 4 Bayonetta. Steve has been out for over two years now. Smash 4 Bayonetta was released on February 3rd 2016, and less than two years later Salem was #2 on the PGR as solo Bayonetta, Tweek was #5 using her quite a bit, Mistake was #13, CaptainZack #18, Lima #24, JK #37, tyroy #40. In comparison, Ultimate has well... Quite a few Steve mains as well, now that I think about it, and acola is likely #2 and Onin might be top 10 at this point, with DDog and Jake doing quite well too. yonni might make top 50 although his results have been a bit inconsistent lately. Hmm.

One significant difference is that virtually everyone agreed that Bayonetta was #1. Many people don't view Steve as a top 3 character, some don't even consider him a top 5 character. For Kazuya it's even worse, with many people doubting that he's a top 5 character.

It's unfortunate that locals might lose players due to characters like Steve, Kazuya, and ROB. It makes some sense for locals to ban characters in order to increase participation, assuming that even works, although it's still problematic for many reasons. Ideally characters would only be banned if they were deeply problematic from a competitive point of view, or if the character is really, really overpowered (like Brawl Meta Knight and maybe Smash 4 Bayonetta). I don't think neither Steve nor Kazuya really fits the bill. Majors really can't ban characters because "we'd lose players otherwise", though, and if, say, Texas ends up permanently banning Steve and Kazuya, then those players will be at a disadvantage when going to majors, since they'd be less prepared to face those characters.

I think getting rid of Kalos from the stage list would help quite a bit with tuning down Steve and Kazuya. Right now the stage list tends to favor characters that prefer stages like Final Destination and Kalos, since the stage lists generally don't use Yoshi's Island anymore (so only one triplat) but still run both Final Destination and Kalos (at least in NA, which seems to be where most of the Steve/Kazuya controversy comes from anyways). Kalos has many issues aside from that anyways. See:

Dabuz should fully commit to and drop . I think that there is so much unexplored stuff that he hasn't scratched the surface that could possibly elevate this character to great heights. Look what happened when Mkleo and Tweek Stoped with the silly character crisis and stuck to what worked.

Honestly? In order to maximize his chances of winning, I think Dabuz should pick up Steve. I think the character would suit him well. He'd probably get quite a bit of hate if he did that, though, but from a competitive perspective, I think that would be the play. He could still use his other characters as secondaries if necessary.

 

[Rocketjay8]

Honestly? In order to maximize his chances of winning, I think Dabuz should pick up Steve. I think the character would suit him well. He'd probably get quite a bit of hate if he did that, though, but from a competitive perspective, I think that would be the play. He could still use his other characters as secondaries if necessary.

I don't think it's a good idea to pick up Steve since he already plays 3 complicated characters.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I don't think it's a good idea to pick up Steve since he already mains 3 complicated characters.

He'd probably drop those/have them as secondaries and focus mainly on Steve. I think it would pay off, long term. I could also see Tweek doing well with Steve. It would be interesting to see what would happen if an established top player gave Steve a serious try, so far the only one who did was Salem (and he got banned, so we never got to see where he'd end up long term).

 

[Aligo]

So, recommending people drop their unique characters for easier wins with Steve? Sounds a wee bit like a smash 4 bayo moment.

Still don't understand why people stopped playing Pokémon trainer.

 

[Frihetsanka]

So, recommending people drop their unique characters for easier wins with Steve? Sounds a wee bit like a smash 4 bayo moment.

Still don't understand why people stopped playing Pokémon trainer.

Not necessarily Steve, some players might be better off with some other top tier. But generally speaking, if you want to win you'd have a better chance with a top tier. Although I suppose matchup unfamiliarity is a factor, and no one plays Rosalina & Luma at the same level as Dabuz, so that's an argument for him staying Rosa, even if that character is just a mid tier (or high tier if you're feeling generous).

As for Pokémon Trainer:

Ned: Picked up Sephiroth, but he has started to use Pokémon Trainer more again since he doesn't think Sephiroth is good enough to solo-main.

Tweek: He didn't think Pokémon Trainer was good enough.

Atelier: Still uses Pokémon Trainer.

moxi: He switched to Wolf.

Puppeh: Still plays Pokémon Trainer.

Quidd: Still uses Pokémon Trainer.

Wishes: Quit the game.

Leffen: Quit the game.

DDee: Picked up Steve, uses both.

Tarik: Dropped them for Greninja and Kazuya.

So, seems they picked up other characters along with PT (Ned and DDee), dropped PT for other characters (Tarik, Tweek, moxi), quit the game (Wishes, Leffen), or still main Pokémon Trainer (Atelier, Puppeh, Quidd).

 

[B_Burg]

Eh, it's likely just going to be a one month thing. Not that bad.

I actually wouldn't mind seeing specialized roster events. Like all 64, all Mario series, just fun little stuff. Probably better as a side event.

Agreed with this part especially. I'm not inherently against playing around with rules, including things like specialized roster events, but I also agree with the idea that stages should be played around with first.

Characters are tricky because on the one hand, full on character bans have never really happened other than small local stuff I think. On the other hand, that doesn't mean they necessarily shouldn't have, if you are talking about the health of the scene. But that starts a bit of a slippery slope, partially because it's near impossible to quantify.

The biggest thing in my mind right now, is that we don't know what's next. Ultimate is obviously going to be played for a long time, 64 is still played after all, but if this is the last Smash game we get for a long while yet, what do you prioritize for the sake of the competitive scene? Smash is grassroots so all the rules are kinda just made up and agreed on anyway, which is mostly why I'm not completely close minded to the idea of character bans necessarily, but I'm personally not convinced it's really needed yet.

That said, I do like that they're going a little further with the experiment with the event of all DLC being banned rather than it 100% being about season 2. Though like you said, this sorta stuff seems better suited for a side event.

 

[Rocketjay8]

He'd probably drop those/have them as secondaries and focus mainly on Steve. I think it would pay off, long term. I could also see Tweek doing well with Steve. It would be interesting to see what would happen if an established top player gave Steve a serious try, so far the only one who did was Salem (and he got banned, so we never got to see where he'd end up long term).

Well they can try to pick up Steve, but the problem is that we are now beginning to see counterplay at the top level against him. Light showed off how Steve falls apart with pressure when he's out of materials. Mkleo absolutley demolished Acola with Byleth spacing out of Steve's range. Steve is alsi a pretty common character so counterplay os going to happen even faster.

 

[Aligo]

It honestly surprises me that Steve isn't doing better than he currently is. Having the best side special to have ever existed in smash, extreme stalling potential thanks to blocks, exceptional frame data and damage (like look it up it is complete absurdity) and the ability to recover from just about anywhere with a respectable 92 weight.

Bad movement never stopped snake, and it doesn't matter when you have better wondering, projectile command grabs that lead into easy kills, and the threat of plus on block kill at 60 diamond tool attacks if left alone. Provided you never approach, you will always be in a favourable position.


If a sonicx equivalent appeared in the ranks of Steve mains, ultimate is probably doomed competitive wise.

I don't know, maybe I am overlooking some critical flaw in my ignorance.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

I dunno all this talk about Steve reminds me of a familiar time in Smash 4 where people were claiming that Bayo counterplay was being developed and that Bayo would be put under control . The character was overated and would never broke as dominant as others were fearing

We all know how those claims turned out.

Another similarity between Steve and Smash 4 Bayo meta is that Bayo was not really picked up by many of the then major top players but used mostly be then fairly unknown players and rising talent who then blew up and getting the same results as the current top players
So we have to think hey., What if MKLeo or players on the caliber of Light, Sparg0, Kola or Dabuz started using them and what results could they get?

Yeah I am expecting dejavu here and it does have me slightly concerned The general timeline of opinions, results and meta shifts of Smash 4 Bayo and Steve has many more things in common than I think many people realize

 

[Aligo]

Yeah I am expecting dejavu here and it does have me slightly worried. The general timline of opinions and meta of Smash 4 Bayo and Steve has many more things in common than I think many people realize

Let's hope it doesn't end up like this.

 

[Sucumbio]

I'm more worried about that one match in brawl when mk and ic just stood there for like a minute lol but we're not there yet.

 

[Aligo]

I'm more worried about that one match in brawl when mk and ic just stood there for like a minute lol but we're not there yet.

Oh god, I remember Heew talking about that, in the brawl is broken video. The meta knight won't leave the platform so as to not get chain grabbed, and the ice climbers won't leave the floor as to not get ladder comboed. Brawl was a wild time.

 

[Arthur97]

Let's not jump the gun. Ultimate is a very balanced game with high and even some mid tiers putting in work. It's unlikely Steve will really break the game. I'm not even sure it's possible to break it quite as hard as Bayo did. Like, even if Steve does break it, I don't think it would be to the same degree and definitely not in the same way.

But, hey, look on the bright side, decent enough chance Steve ain't coming back. At least not in a base roster. Steve's greatest weakness: licensing fees.

 

[Aligo]

Let's not jump the gun. Ultimate is a very balanced game with high and even some mid tiers putting in work. It's unlikely Steve will really break the game. I'm not even sure it's possible to break it quite as hard as Bayo did. Like, even if Steve does break it, I don't think it would be to the same degree and definitely not in the same way.

But, hey, look on the bright side, decent enough chance Steve ain't coming back. At least not in a base roster. Steve's greatest weakness: licensing fees.

That and the coding nightmare his mechanics represent. It took those poor souls two years to get it to a workable state, and required alterations to EVERY stage. At least the amiibo was less challenging...

But I do want Steve in smash due to Minecrafts impact in the industry. I just want said character to be somewhat balanced.

 

[Frihetsanka]

One the one side, we have people saying Steve is being figured out and counter-play is being developed, and on the other side we have people saying he's the clear #1, borderline Smash 4 Bayonetta strength. Personally I would go with a mix of those two: Likely #1, but not entirely uncontested, but the counter-play isn't going to be enough to dethrone him. I don't think he's ban-worthy though, and many people think he's fun to watch (but that's fairly subjective). Same with Kazuya (although few people want to face a Kazuya in tournament, he's kind of a stronger Luigi in that regard).

Characters that people dislike have always been a part of Smash. I remember there was a discussion that Jigglypuff was killing Melee, yet Melee still seems to be thriving. I don't think neither Steve nor Kazuya will kill Ultimate, and I don't think either of them will be banned. Both acola and Onin barely made it to Grand Finals, and I imagine the discourse would've been very different if they didn't.

 

[Rocketjay8]

I dunno all this talk about Steve reminds me of a familiar time in Smash 4 where people were claiming that Bayo counterplay was being developed and that Bayo would be put under control . The character was overated and would never broke as dominant as others were fearing

We all know how those claims turned out.

Another similarity between Steve and Smash 4 Bayo meta is that Bayo was not really picked up by many of the then major top players but used mostly be then fairly unknown players and rising talent who then blew up and getting the same results as the current top players
So we have to think hey., What if MKLeo or players on the caliber of Light, Sparg0, Kola or Dabuz started using them and what results could they get?

Yeah I am expecting dejavu here and it does have me slightly concerned The general timeline of opinions, results and meta shifts of Smash 4 Bayo and Steve has many more things in common than I think many people realize

Steve doesn't even have a single move like that's as bull**** as Bayo Witch Time.

Looking at this makes me feel sick.

 

[Aligo]

One the one side, we have people saying Steve is being figured out and counter-play is being developed, and on the other side we have people saying he's the clear #1, borderline Smash 4 Bayonetta strength. Personally I would go with a mix of those two: Likely #1, but not entirely uncontested, but the counter-play isn't going to be enough to dethrone him. I don't think he's ban-worthy though, and many people think he's fun to watch (but that's fairly subjective). Same with Kazuya (although few people want to face a Kazuya in tournament, he's kind of a stronger Luigi in that regard).

Characters that people dislike have always been a part of Smash. I remember there was a discussion that Jigglypuff was killing Melee, yet Melee still seems to be thriving. I don't think neither Steve nor Kazuya will kill Ultimate, and I don't think either of them will be banned. Both acola and Onin barely made it to Grand Finals, and I imagine the discourse would've been very different if they didn't.

Well Steve has what I would call the 'sonic issue' where the character can be nigh unbeatable If played optimally, but you will lose a bit of your soul in the process - more of an anything to win playstyle. This repells would be top players of the character, which in turn suppress results.

Smash 4 bayo lacks camping and range, and most of Steve's moves can't be witch timed on reaction, So I think she would actually have a lot of trouble with the matchup, especially since Steve generally kills with just two neutral wins.

Of course Brawl MK would clap because of his overall mobility and the capacity to ignore any blocks Steve places. Transcendent priority would screw over Steve too.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Looking at this makes me feel sick.

Watching this reaffirms my belief that Kazuya and Steve aren't nearly as bad. Probably not as bad as Smash 4 Cloud either.

Smash 4 bayo lacks camping and range, and most of Steve's moves can't be witch timed on reaction, So I think she would actually have a lot of trouble with the matchup, especially since Steve generally kills with just two neutral wins.

yonni and DDog think Steve slightly loses to Ultimate Bayo, and Smash 4 Bayo was way more OP.

Well Steve has what I would call the 'sonic issue' where the character can be nigh unbeatable If played optimally, but you will lose a bit of your soul in the process - more of an anything to win playstyle.

I agree that Sonic has this issue (few players want to go for a timeout) but Steve doesn't seem to (I don't think he has the mobility to really force a timeout). If Steve has a lead he can keep crafting until the opponent approaches, but most of the time the opponent will approach at some point. So unless you're thinking of something other than timeout I don't think Steve is in the same boat as Sonic.

 

[Aligo]

Wait a minute, does bayo win against the Minecraft man. I would very much like to know more about that.

 

[Rocketjay8]

Watching this reaffirms my belief that Kazuya and Steve aren't nearly as bad. Probably not as bad as Smash 4 Cloud either.

Smash 4 feels like a Filler Ark that everyone collectively erased from their memories.