Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Ziodyne 21]

Zomba the Japan top player slayer. That game 5 was one clutch comeback

 

[The_Bookworm]

As confirmed by Zomba, apparently today's sets prior to top 8 was played with Underdog Boost turned on. It definitely affected a few interactions throughout the top 12. Thankfully, TKBreezy confirmed that none of yesterday's sets was played with Underdog Boost on. Still a messy situation.

Btw, congrats on Zomba on the massive comeback game 5 vs KEN. KEN definitely played nervous on the last two stocks, but Zomba played out-of-mind. Playing this well at the highest level at only 16 years old is a sight to behold.

 

[Game7a1]

As confirmed by Zomba, apparently today's sets prior to top 8 was played with Underdog Boost turned on. It definitely affected a few interactions throughout the top 12. Thankfully, TKBreezy confirmed that none of yesterday's sets was played with Underdog Boost on. Still a messy situation.

Unfortunately, there is evidence suggesting Underdog Boost was on yesterday. It is currently unknown how many matches or setups were affected, but it's not looking good for the tournament. Even Maister noticed something wrong, but he didn't know it was Underdog Boost.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Both representing Tri-state, Dabuz and Zomba have eliminated Japan from the tournament.

All there is left is Mexico and USA.


Edit: Geez, MkLeo completely destroyed Kola. By far the fastest set of today.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Jeebuz.. Is "Game 4 Sparg0" going to be a thing now?.

Also ROB is big

 

[The_Bookworm]

The Robotic Operating Buddy given to Zomba is actually built different.

All of his sets today has gone to game 5. Against Shuton, KEN, and Kola, he has to make a herculean comeback to win. Easily the best ftilts and back airs out of any ROB player. He keeps his cool even when behind, and his ability to catch multiple options is immaculate.

This is what a top level solo ROB looks like. One of the biggest rising stars of post-quarantine.

 

[ARISTOS]

Aegis is easily the best character in the game lol. At times I'm like what is this character even lol

 

[NairWizard]

To me it seems that Aegis wins every matchup in the game at this point, with maybe some evens? If you're not playing Aegis and you're going to tournaments, do yourself a favor and pick up an Aegis secondary. Regardless of balance concerns, you at least won't regret the pick.

 

[The_Bookworm]

MkLeo's pick was definitely more for the Sparg0 matchup than simply meeting him at the mirror. He noticed that Sparg0 had issues with the mirror earlier with Cosmos. Sparg0 also has a lot of experience vs his Byleth.

Sparg0 could've easily had the mirror, but he screwed up the ending of the first game big time (had Byleth down air flashbacks), then lost the first stock of the second game pretty early due to a semi-SD.

Either way, MkLeo hasn't dropped a single game in this bracket, looking as dominate as ever.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Well 3 or the top 4 have used Aegis . Is this a sign of whats to come


But apparently Min-Min was the bigger problem that needed actual impactful nerfs.

 

[NairWizard]

MkLeo's pick was definitely more for the Sparg0 matchup than simply meeting him at the mirror.

Leo's said that he practiced Pyra/Mythra because he knows that Byleth-Aegis is impossible. He came to this event prepared to PM ditto.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Well 3 or the top 4 have used Aegis . Is this a sign of whats to come

Granted that Leo has used more Byleth than Aegis overall in this event, and Sparg0 used a lot of Cloud.


Edit: LETTSSSS GO COSMOS!!!!!!

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Oh no.
People gonna be calling for nerfs.
Yep.
Here they come.
Last week it was Steve.
Now it's Aegis.
Have fun!

 

[Idon]

Welp...
They're done patching the game...

This is what we have to look forward to I guess.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Welp...
They're done patching the game...

This is what we have to look forward to I guess.

13.0.2


Edit: Plot armor.

 

[The_Bookworm]

After the endgame that this thread was fearing, wins it all (Leo was using mostly Byleth throughout most of the event anyways).

Cosmos played out of mind though. From LCQ, to grand finals game 5 vs MkLeo.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

So... do we still consider Byleth a bad character?

For real though. Everyone played outta their minds. This was a great tournament. Even matches like Dabuz vs Proto were fun to watch.

Hopefully we can do this again soon.

 

[The_Bookworm]

So... do we still consider Byleth a bad character?

For real though. Everyone played outta their minds. This was a great tournament. Even matches like Dabuz vs Proto were fun to watch.

Hopefully we can do this again soon.

We have stopped considering Byleth a bad character a long time ago. The subject of debate is deciding exactly HOW good is Byleth.
Byleth may be at the high/mid tier range, but MkLeo Byleth is top tier.

But yeah, everyone played out of their mind today. Zomba and Cosmos are my personal highlights for me this event.

 

[Idon]

So... do we still consider Byleth a bad character?

For real though. Everyone played outta their minds. This was a great tournament. Even matches like Dabuz vs Proto were fun to watch.

Hopefully we can do this again soon.

I don't think people have thought that for a while.
MKLeo is a god, yes, but not even gods can work with broken tools.
For a direct comparison, Leo couldn't win with Marth at a local.

Anyway, outside the Underdog boost some asshole thought it'd be funny to turn on... very impressed with everyone involved.

 

[ThreeT]

Spargo seems to have trouble with the Pythra ditto. Going Cloud also doesn't really help in this matchup.

 

[NairWizard]

All Aegis talk aside, Leo's Byleth dropped only 1 game in this entire event (to Myran).

 

[The_Bookworm]

Smash World Tour 2021 Championships (40 Entrants)

1st: MkLeo
2nd: Cosmos
3rd: Sparg0
4th: Zomba
5th: Dabuz
5th: Kola
7th: ProtoBanham
7th: KEN

9th: Sonix
9th: MuteAce
9th: Shuton
9th: sisqui

Spoiler: Top 24

13th: Maister
13th: Glutonny
13th: Scend
13th: Riddles

17th: Tweek
17th: Marss
17th: Anathema
17th: BassMage
17th: moxi
17th: SKITTLES!!
17th: MVD
17th: Myran

Spoiler: Out at RR Pools

25th: Chag
25th: Cloudy
25th: Tarik
25th: Capitancito
25th: Kobe
25th: Wrath
25th: Lea
25th: Jdizzle

33rd: alice
33rd: Kiyarash
33rd: Tilde
33rd: Br1 AV
33rd: Sintro
33rd: XIFL
33rd: Tomberry
33rd: Peli

Although we saw quite a bit of Aegis action today, he got an overall high amount of different characters in play this event, and two of top finishers of Aegis used the other character considerably (in the case of MkLeo, it might as well be treated as a secondary).

This tournament also saw a whole number of storylines come into play.

• Cosmos Pyra practice has paid off immensely. This is by far his best performance at a major in Ultimate, even dominating MkLeo in the mirror. He also beat Sparg0 in the mirror as well, but it was closer. To note that he started from the LCQ, all the way to grand finals game 5 vs MkLeo. If that isn't the run of the year, I don't know what is.
• Getting 17th at Smash Con is good, 5th at CEO 2021 is amazing, and now 4th at SWT Championship is outstanding. Zomba has been in the rise lately, with great coverage, comeback factor, and the best usage of ftilt and back air out of any ROB players. He literally invented the "ZomBair" during this tournament. ROB is quite notorious in this thread for being the #1 on OrionStats, and the most represented character overall, but little top level results. Zomba is bringing them here at a very young age.
• MkLeo's looks quite a bit more polished than it was in the last several tournaments. They mainly came into play vs Peli (Byleth vs Sonic is pretty bad) and Sparg0 (who is too use to the Byleth matchup + has issues in the ditto).
• However outside of that, MkLeo's stole the show once again. His Byleth looked dominant throughout this bracket, and as NairWizard says, only dropping a game vs Myran.
• To be expected of a once online circuit, there were a considerable amount of in this tournament. However, only two made it out of pools and they put on a show. Sonix in particular is very notable, as he went from losing his first two sets in the first day, to beating Dabuz, Tweek, and Maister. Quite a crazy comeback story for him.
• also did well this event: Dabuz used him in some crucial sets, while Shuton and Myran also performed admirably with the character.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Smash World Tour 2021 Championships (40 Entrants)

1st: MkLeo
2nd: Cosmos
3rd: Sparg0
4th: Zomba
5th: Dabuz
5th: Kola
7th: ProtoBanham
7th: KEN

9th: Sonix
9th: MuteAce
9th: Shuton
9th: sisqui

Spoiler: Top 24

13th: Maister
13th: Glutonny
13th: Scend
13th: Riddles

17th: Tweek
17th: Marss
17th: Anathema
17th: BassMage
17th: moxi
17th: SKITTLES!!
17th: MVD
17th: Myran

Spoiler: Out at RR Pools

25th: Chag
25th: Cloudy
25th: Tarik
25th: Capitancito
25th: Kobe
25th: Wrath
25th: Lea
25th: Jdizzle

33rd: alice
33rd: Kiyarash
33rd: Tilde
33rd: Br1 AV
33rd: Sintro
33rd: XIFL
33rd: Tomberry
33rd: Peli

Although we saw quite a bit of Aegis action today, he got an overall high amount of different characters in play this event, and two of top finishers of Aegis used the other character considerably (in the case of MkLeo, it might as well be treated as a secondary).

This tournament also saw a whole number of storylines come into play.

• Cosmos Pyra practice has paid off immensely. This is by far his best performance at a major in Ultimate, even dominating MkLeo in the mirror. He also beat Sparg0 in the mirror as well, but it was closer. To note that he started from the LCQ, all the way to grand finals game 5 vs MkLeo. If that isn't the run of the year, I don't know what is.
• Getting 17th at Smash Con is good, 5th at CEO 2021 is amazing, and now 4th at SWT Championship is outstanding. Zomba has been in the rise lately, with great coverage, comeback factor, and the best usage of ftilt and back air out of any ROB players. He literally invented the "ZomBair" during this tournament. ROB is quite notorious in this thread for being the #1 on OrionStats, and the most represented character overall, but little top level results. Zomba is bringing them here at a very young age.
• MkLeo's looks quite a bit more polished than it was in the last several tournaments. They mainly came into play vs Peli (Byleth vs Sonic is pretty bad) and Sparg0 (who is too use to the Byleth matchup + has issues in the ditto).
• However outside of that, MkLeo's stole the show once again. His Byleth looked dominant throughout this bracket, and as NairWizard says, only dropping a game vs Myran.
• To be expected of a once online circuit, there were a considerable amount of in this tournament. However, only two made it out of pools and they put on a show. Sonix in particular is very notable, as he went from losing his first two sets in the first day, to beating Dabuz, Tweek, and Maister. Quite a crazy comeback story for him.
• also did well this event: Dabuz used him in some crucial sets, while Shuton and Myran also performed admirably with the character.

Zomba, bringing back from the dead? Lol yeah no. ROB was always still very good. Just like is as good as he ever way and many people are kinda too quick to forget just because his topped repped players are not using him. But ROB seems to be eternally underestimated any results.. Because he is big is guess. Just like a certian electric rat will forever seem to be overestimated despite very shaky resutls. Becuase its small i guess
I mean even is still getting very good results again thanks to Ling Ling and Muteace.

I just kinda hope Ageis are not going to dominate the meta now. I mean the top 3 all used them.. Even though they did not win SWT. Its almost like..i mean A certian SSB4 character took a while to be dominant, while another oversatured the meta near im the blink of an Are they going to be a problem . If Cosmos cam keep this level of consistency i have mever seem of him before?



I am tired and my brain is fired. Ky il likey will not mean much. But I just want to chime in and put my two cents in

 

[PK Gaming]

So... do we still consider Byleth a bad character?

For real though. Everyone played outta their minds. This was a great tournament. Even matches like Dabuz vs Proto were fun to watch.

Hopefully we can do this again soon.

Byleth is Top Tier

 

[Kokiden]

Fun tourney to watch.

Feel bad for Sparg0 and Tweek. Their losses must've hurt quite a bit after their tweets.

Cosmos played extremely well. He's improved by vast amounts.

All Aegis in top 3... Welp... this is what we're going to have to get used to now.

No more balance patches anymore after all unfortunately...

 

[NotLiquid]

goofy Pyra DAir

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

And people are already comparing Aegis to after the top 3 of the SWT being all players who main/secondary the character, with quite a few dittos.

Will say, even after this I don't think Pyra/Mythra are the next Bayonetta. They're starting to become dominant in top 8's but not to the point where the character is warping the meta around them like Bayonetta or Meta Knight did in Brawl. Hell, they still haven't solo won a major yet, and we're not in 6 Tyroy's at EVO Japan 2020 Top 8 territory either.

If these results continue, or it gets more absurd, then maybe that discussion can actually pick up seriously. But this is the only time we've had more then one Pyra/Mythra in top 8 of a major. I am expecting Aegis to be #1 on the next OrionStats though.

 

[The_Bookworm]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

And people are already comparing Aegis to after the top 3 of the SWT being all players who main/secondary the character, with quite a few dittos.

Will say, even after this I don't think Pyra/Mythra are the next Bayonetta. They're starting to become dominant in top 8's but not to the point where the character is warping the meta around them like Bayonetta or Meta Knight did in Brawl. Hell, they still haven't solo won a major yet, and we're not in 6 Tyroy's at EVO Japan 2020 Top 8 territory either.

If these results continue, or it gets more absurd, then maybe that discussion can actually pick up seriously. But this is the only time we've had more then one Pyra/Mythra in top 8 of a major. I am expecting Aegis to be #1 on the next OrionStats though.

To add on to that, Cosmos was the only one who solo mained her. We already know that he is very good player already, but this tournament was definitely the big breakout tournament, from LCQ to 2nd place.

MkLeo only used her for only 20-25% of the tournament. Everything else has been Byleth. Sparg0 mainly used her, but also used Cloud a ton throughout the tournament. Both of these players are EXPECTED to be top 3 finishers.

Also, name a high level Aegis player outside of Cosmos that solo mains her, let alone does well in bigger tournaments.

We are going to be fine folks. There is nothing so far that indicates anywhere close to the new SSB4 Bayo.


Btw, ROB is still very likely going to be #1 in the rankings. The character's lead is too big (no pun intended) and it has Zomba providing even more points.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Btw, ROB is still very likely going to be #1 in the rankings. The character's lead is too big (no pun intended) and it has Zomba providing even more points.

I meant in the next season of the rankings, where ROB won't be #1 anymore. Even Barnard said he doesn't think ROB will be #1 for results in the next season (starting January).

 

[Ziodyne 21]

From recent tweets it looks like Protobaham and Kome are now thinking of maiming Aegis. I think its time we stopped denying that try are likely going to be a problem now.

Also it seems like Tweek is taking a break from smash for a while. I kinda see he definetley seemed shaky at SWT Tweek seems cursed an eternal character crisis. Part of is he said himself he does not want to play "basic" or "easy" characters like Wolf

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Zackray is thinking of playing Sheik

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[StoicPhantom]

We are going to be fine folks. There is nothing so far that indicates anywhere close to the new SSB4 Bayo.

If I'm interpreting things right, we just came off an illegal ruleset that nerfs campy characters who rely on having a lead and buffs swordies who can sometimes struggle if they fall behind.

If I'm interpreting their rage tweets correctly, players like Sonix, MuteAce, and Maister were having major difficulty getting basic combos and confirms to work. Swordies would pretty much be the only archetype that could still function well under knockback changes. Imagine Mythra getting lower percent strings at higher percents when she has the lead and Pyra netting earlier kills when she's behind.

And the takeaway from this is that the Aegis are the reincarnation of Smash 4 Bayo because one solo Aegis managed to get top 8 after two solo Sonics managed to also get top 8(ish)? With Byleth still taking the crown?


I dunno, it feels like people just want an overpowered character to spice up a mediocre roster. At least wait until Aegis wins a major under a real ruleset.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

If I'm interpreting things right, we just came off an illegal ruleset that nerfs campy characters who rely on having a lead and buffs swordies who can sometimes struggle if they fall behind.

If I'm interpreting their rage tweets correctly, players like Sonix, MuteAce, and Maister were having major difficulty getting basic combos and confirms to work. Swordies would pretty much be the only archetype that could still function well under knockback changes. Imagine Mythra getting lower percent strings at higher percents when she has the lead and Pyra netting earlier kills when she's behind.

And the takeaway from this is that the Aegis are the reincarnation of Smash 4 Bayo because one solo Aegis managed to get top 8 after two solo Sonics managed to also get top 8(ish)? With Byleth still taking the crown?


I dunno, it feels like people just want an overpowered character to spice up a mediocre roster. At least wait until Aegis wins a major under a real ruleset.

That ruleset wasn't illegal throughout all of top 8, it didn't affect any of the games with Aegis. Underdog Boost was turned off then. Underdog Boost was apparently only affecting the very last sets of top 16 on Saturday and top 12 on Monday. Nothing else.

 

[StoicPhantom]

That ruleset wasn't illegal throughout all of top 8, it didn't affect any of the games with Aegis. Underdog Boost was turned off then. Underdog Boost was apparently only affecting the very last sets of top 16 on Saturday and top 12 on Monday. Nothing else.

Ah, thanks for the clarification. It's hard to parse things when all the info is scattered around Twitter sometimes.

I still agree with Bookworm that we'll be fine and Aegis aren't Smash 4 Bayo level though.

 

[NairWizard]

Comparing Aegis to Bayo is ridiculous. S4 Bayonetta had a virtually infinite advantage state with more room for optimization than the entire S4 roster combined, across all game states. We've never had a character like that in smash before. The only limit to S4 Bayo was your own execution and labwork, and even then it wasn't much of a limit because if you were even reasonable at the game you probably were managing 0-to-deaths against very good players.

Pyra and Mythra are more comparable to (singles) S4 Cloud than S4 Bayo, not just because they have a sword but because they exhibit similar levels of viability and other similarities in playstyle and adaptability. S4 Cloud basically had no (significantly) losing matchups outside of an optimized Bayo, so the only reason people don't mention him as much is because Bayo was taking over the meta and there was no point to using Cloud, but what we really have is another Cloud, not another Bayo.

There were four non-Bayo matchups that gave Cloud pause: Bowser, DK, Diddy Kong, and Sheik. Archetypically, Diddy Kong and Sheik should have beaten Cloud because of edgeguards and anti-sword-zoning neutrals, but this rarely happened. Cloud's ability to approach Sheik with up-air made that matchup feel even to slight Cloud favor toward the end of the game regardless of results.
Diddy's meta was carried by one player who developed answers faster than the Clouds could come up with questions, but that matchup still looked even, despite really precise, TAS-like edgeguards from the #1 player, and Cloud definitely had more room for optimization in the MU than Diddy (sadly Bayo diverted attention from everyone's meta and other matchups at some level).
Bowser and DK were hard on the basis of stupidly high reward coupled with big grab range, but even there Cloud had ample room for counterplay. Against the rest of the cast, Cloud solidly won the MU, with characters like Mario and Luigi able to compete and bring him to last-hit situations because of their grab reward.

Cloud differed from the typical sword character in two ways. One, he didn't have to approach because he was so fast with Limit, and two, when he did approach, he had so many mixups that there was no "correct" response to his approach. Just keeping up with all the timings of up-air and the fact that rising up-air hit characters on the ground made it impossible to anticipate his option.

Cloud's disadvantage state looked poor but in reality wasn't that bad, as he could get out of juggles with up-airs and even his non-limit recovery had sufficient mixups.

Cloud was good, accessible, and flexible. He was easy to play at mid levels with a very high skill ceiling, and although he rewarded fundamentals, there was room for error when playing Cloud. He suited a variety of playstyles because Limit was flexible and his hitboxes large. There was virtually no reason not to have a secondary or pocket Cloud, at least until Bayo got optimized.

Fast-forward to Pyra/Mythra and the viability situation is similar. There's no insane grab reward this time to penalize Pyra/Mythra for badly spaced aerials but castwide advantage states are good enough to replace them; the issue is that these advantage states (usually) have to come from spacing hitboxes against them, which means that you're playing their games unless you have insane OOS (contrast with Smash 4 Cloud where you could shieldgrab liberally and thus didn't have to contest Cloud's hitboxes). Bowser, DK, Mario, and Luigi aren't beating Pyra/Mythra this time around, though I have no doubt that Luigi and DK can still do well (and now there's ROB who fulfills the niche in some ways). Wolf and Fox may have temporary holds on the MU but those holds are going to loosen over time as Mythra optimizes her edgeguarding and ledgetrapping against them, and after that, well...

Similar to Cloud, Mythra doesn't have to approach. People point to her speed a lot, but that speed wouldn't mean much without dash attack. It's so fast from such a big initial dash that anything you do in neutral is a commitment, whether that's jump or initial dash or even d-tilt. The only reason Cosmos lost to Mkleo's Byleth is because he (Cosmos) kept dash attacking in neutral when there was nothing to punish, something that Nairo called out several times on stream. It must have been some kind of nerves, because if you just wait for Byleth to do anything like land from a double jump or whiff an aerial because you walked out of range you can dash attack for free before he can shield; it's just a matter of timing. This single move carries Mythra to the very top of the offline neutral meta, invalidating the midrange focus for all of the other top characters.

When they do approach, their approaches are completely ambiguous, not just because of Mythra cross-up n-air but also because their grabs and dash grabs are just so good in a game where dash grab is almost universally a terrible option. Mythra up-air and d-air, as well as Pyra d-air and up-air, have just as much room for mixups as Cloud up-air did in S4 if not more, and the character has additional swap mixups to replace Limit mixups. There is no "correct" response to either character in neutral; if you choose "correctly" against Pyra by choosing not to commit she can get a Blazing End mixup on you with skewed risk-reward in her favor (she doesn't even necessarily get hit for throwing it out, and most of the penalty of losing stage control from using it can be reversed with a swap to Mythra later).

There is room for counterplay against Mythra specifically. There's almost no hitlag, which means that you have to prepare specific, character-dependent reactions to her jumps. All swordies also have to earn the "right" to jump in neutral; that's the basis of their neutral. Mythra is no exception here, and counterplay to her fadeback jumps is possible. Against Pyra, there is less room for counterplay because when you're fighting Pyra you don't have a full hand of options (you're in the corner/on ledge/in the air).

Their disadvantage state is better than it looks. If you have Mythra in the air you always risk getting Foresighted and reversal'd and losing your stock, similar to Cloud up-air. The hurtbox shifts make it very hard to hit the character and their recovery is way better than it looks. When I watch Leo play against them I see fewer and fewer edgeguards each time.

Pyra and Mythra, like Cloud, are good, accessible, and flexible. No matter what kind of player you are--bait and punish, zoner, so-called "rushdown" player--they suit your playstyle. There is almost no reason not to have one in your pocket or as a secondary because they will likely fit you and will enable success against a variety of players of different characters. They reward fundamentals, but also have enough "privilege" baked into their animations and base stats that you have substantial margins for error compared to your opponent.

Is there counterplay, and are we going to see dips in Pyra/Mythra performance? For sure. But the counter-counterplay, just like with S4 Cloud, is significantly stronger, so I think we have a clear new #1 (across all levels) that's here to stay.

 

[ARISTOS]

Pyra and Mythra are more comparable to (singles) S4 Cloud than S4 Bayo, not just because they have a sword but because they exhibit similar levels of viability and other similarities in playstyle and adaptability. S4 Cloud basically had no (significantly) losing matchups outside of an optimized Bayo, so the only reason people don't mention him as much is because Bayo was taking over the meta and there was no point to using Cloud, but what we really have is another Cloud, not another Bayo.

Only quoting to reemphasize, because you're 100% on the mark.

I think people hold onto the "Not Bayo" card as a way to hold off extreme positions, and then say Aegis is "just" S4 Cloud. The issue is that Cloud was also detrimental to S4's overall meta, and in all likelihood you were probably going to lose to a Cloud before you lost to a Bayo.

Not thrilled with this character at all given it's another relatively simple sword with overturned buttons - but that's the game as is I guess

 

[SKX31]

While I'm not convinced that they're uncontested #1 (partly since we're talking three people who were extremely good before the pandemic and Aegis' release)...

Aegis is certainly "You just gave this character amazing (almost) everything didn't you Sakurai?" Now they're not alone in this category - I can think of , , as similar cases - but it's saying something. Especially when their shared trait of being an "advantage state machine"* fits Ultimate's meta like a glove.

My main doubts regard their relative linearity compared to say Joker or Palu (we haven't seen many if any Aegis vs. Joker MUs at this level, which isn't helped by Joker representation practically falling off). Where their gameplan is inevitably going to boil down to swinging or grabbing most of the time (similarily to Roy and Cloud) whereas Joker / Palu have projectiles that outrange Blazing End. Yes, NairWizard pointed out just right now that Mythra doesn't have to approach (and neither does Pyra really), but whichever person approaches the Aegis' option most of the time is to (incredibly oversimplified) either swing with a tilt, swing with an aerial or grab. Granted, Mythra's responses are going to differ from Pyra's in quite a few regards and they still have quite a few different attacks they can swing with in neutral or disadvantage, but their attacks being semi-clone versions of each other does mean that any opponent looking to learn their attack timings is getting a lot of practice already.

Not that it is a massive hindrance, mind, but this "I know you'll swing" still resulted in a lot of situations where Aegis players were trading in rather awkward OoS situations or having some difficulties killing outside of the confirms / off stage. Sparg0 vs. Cosmos in WB comes to mind, but also Cosmos' set vs. Tweek in the group stage and Cosmos' set vs. Leo featured this. In particular, people survived hits at the 120 % range rather frequently on not just PS2 but also Small Battlefield and FD.

Still though, I'm agreeing that they look like a rough equivalent of Smash 4 Cloud. Which... I don't think it's really that good for the metagame. Not only since Aegis have a lot of winning MUs: I can think of up to 10 characters they might go even or at the very worst go slightly minus with in the long run, but that's still a very small number and I'm being admittedly generous. But also in light no new patches meaning that the metagame might become increasingly focused on them akin to S4 Cloud (unless Sakurai and co view some of their stuff as bugs... I'm not feeling confident on that, otherwise they'd already tone down Pyra's D-Air seeing how far down it hits).

All in all, my doubts are not that significant in the long run: for all I care Aegis could wind up undisputed #1 or just outside the Top 5 (I know, feeling less likely now, but bringing this scenario up in case of optimization and what not) and I'd still say that they're very much akin to S4 Cloud in the most important regards. Hell, S4 Sheik was "only" considered 3rd by the end of 4's lifespan and rather heavily nerfed... and she still had an insane MU spread with most of the cast, with no agreed-upon losing MU. Ditto with S4 Diddy, again another nerfed character during the game's lifespan whose players could only agree on 1-3 losing MU out of 54 (Rosa and maybe Sheik / Fox).

I'm bringing this up mainly because I feel that the counterplay is certainly feasible vs. Mythra and Pyra. But feasible does not exclude the fact that it's going to be incredibly difficult vs. Aegis players like Sparg0 and Cosmos, who will assuredly evolve their own stratagems.

* (And by that I mean that they easily gain and maintain advantage. I'm not convinced their damage output per opening is high compared to characters like say Peach or Luigi, but they do get a lot of openings - which allieviates that in a lot of situations.)

Pyra and Mythra, like Cloud, are good, accessible, and flexible. No matter what kind of player you are--bait and punish, zoner, so-called "rushdown" player--they suit your playstyle. There is almost no reason not to have one in your pocket or as a secondary because they will likely fit you and will enable success against a variety of players of different characters. They reward fundamentals, but also have enough "privilege" baked into their animations and base stats that you have substantial margins for error compared to your opponent.

Is there counterplay, and are we going to see dips in Pyra/Mythra performance? For sure. But the counter-counterplay, just like with S4 Cloud, is significantly stronger, so I think we have a clear new #1 (across all levels) that's here to stay.

I agree with the main point - that Aegis looks at lot like S4 Cloud in many regards - but if I may:

As for Foresight... I'm not sure whether it's an optimization thing or something else. Yes it is incredibly impactful when it happens, especially in favorable conditions (particularily the Sparg0 Limit CS situation that allowed Cosmos to seal a game by itself) but it doesn't seem to come up reliably. At most it happened once or a few times per game? I'm kinda wondering about its frequency because - unlike Witch Time - it isn't tied to a Down B. Still though, if it's an optimization thing we'll see it activate more often soon enough I suppose.

Still though, even if I'm being (perhaps too) skeptical you're pretty much on the mark with the main point.

 

[Rizen]

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And people are already comparing Aegis to after the top 3 of the SWT being all players who main/secondary the character, with quite a few dittos.

Will say, even after this I don't think Pyra/Mythra are the next Bayonetta. They're starting to become dominant in top 8's but not to the point where the character is warping the meta around them like Bayonetta or Meta Knight did in Brawl. Hell, they still haven't solo won a major yet, and we're not in 6 Tyroy's at EVO Japan 2020 Top 8 territory either.

If these results continue, or it gets more absurd, then maybe that discussion can actually pick up seriously. But this is the only time we've had more then one Pyra/Mythra in top 8 of a major. I am expecting Aegis to be #1 on the next OrionStats though.

I've been saying aegis were the next SSB4 Bayo since the fist day they came out but they don't have to be exactly like Bayo to qualify. IMO they're the best character in the game, an over tuned DLC character who's shown up multiple times in multiple top 8s and is dominating the meta in an unhealthy way and therefor qualify. Ultimate is a different game than SSB4; very few people use solo characters anymore and it's not like they're lacking in solo results. But MKLeo's really the big road block. If he shows up, whatever character(s) he uses will very likely get first place be it Joker, Aegis or Byleth. Him dropping Aegis was a huge blow to them but doesn't mean they were any worse of characters. He just likes playing Byleth better.

We've had multiple Aegis at top 8s of a major before.
Glitch 8.5 - Konami Code (421 entrants) (Laurel, MD)
Glitch 8.5 - Ko... | Standings (smash.gg)

1st: ESAM |
2nd: MkLeo |
3rd: Kola
4th: Maister
5th: Light
5th: Chag
7th: Marss
7th: Cosmos
And there have been other times when Cosmos got 9th barely missing top 8. Plus several lesser tournaments with multiple Aegis in top 8.
Pinnacle 2021 (247 Entrants) (British Columbia)

1st: Ouch!?
2nd: Grape
3rd: Big D
4th: Jw
5th: Lemmon
5th: Blacktwins
7th: Tickle
7th: Riddles

 

[Ziodyne 21]

I've been saying aegis were the next SSB4 Bayo since the fist day they came out but they don't have to be exactly like Bayo to qualify. IMO they're the best character in the game, an over tuned DLC character who's shown up multiple times in multiple top 8s and is dominating the meta in an unhealthy way and therefor qualify. Ultimate is a different game than SSB4; very few people use solo characters anymore and it's not like they're lacking in solo results. But MKLeo's really the big road block. If he shows up, whatever character(s) he uses will very likely get first place be it Joker, Aegis or Byleth. Him dropping Aegis was a huge blow to them but doesn't mean they were any worse of characters. He just likes playing Byleth better.

We've had multiple Aegis at top 8s of a major before.
Glitch 8.5 - Konami Code (421 entrants) (Laurel, MD)
Glitch 8.5 - Ko... | Standings (smash.gg)

1st: ESAM |
2nd: MkLeo |
3rd: Kola
4th: Maister
5th: Light
5th: Chag
7th: Marss
7th: Cosmos
And there have been other times when Cosmos got 9th barely missing top 8. Plus several lesser tournaments with multiple Aegis in top 8.
Pinnacle 2021 (247 Entrants) (British Columbia)

1st: Ouch!?
2nd: Grape
3rd: Big D
4th: Jw
5th: Lemmon
5th: Blacktwins
7th: Tickle
7th: Riddles

But as I mentioned it was Min-Min was apparently the huge problem that needed heavy nerfs for the final balance patch and they were big.

Protobaham used Lucina for the majority of his SWT sets and going by his rece t tweets he is looking to replace Min-Min

 

[NotLiquid]

I don't really think Proto's looking toward Aegis as a replacement for Min Min specifically. His tweet is too vague to go off of, but if you're thinking of picking up a character like Aegis, you're probably looking to find a new point character, or just a character to solo main entirely. There's no real benefit of rocking Lucina/Aegis when the latter does almost everything the former wants to do but better.

The lean ratio of how much he currently uses Min Min/Lucina in any given tourney recently is also becoming somewhat arbitrarily marginal. The only winning set he went all Lucina for was MuteAce, but against MVD and Sonix he went all Min Min, and his sets against XIFL and Wrath also had Min Min take games before swapping. Of course, it has to be pointed out that despite Proto having good Sonic MU experience and favoring Min Min for it, the Sonix set has the asterisk of being one of the Underdog Boost sets. In all of Proto's winning games, Sonix was the one who got the most out of it since he was always trailing in stocks, and there was one egregious instance where his dash attack killed, but there's a half decent chance it might've occasionally messed with some combos since Sonic's hitboxes are so finicky.