Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[MrGameguycolor]

This would be great for his competitive viability but idk, he'd get so much more supremely annoying in casual settings. Adding tough guy on a lot of his moves would be amazing for both imo though.

And online.

 

[J0eyboi]

I'm going to go over some imbalances in the current meta and how they should be patched.

slow day, huh

great midrange game (something Lucina lacks)

she does?

is a good yet well balanced character but I do have one complaint: koopa klaw aka body slam doesn't give the opponent enough time to react so Bowser can force stock trades even when he's at a much higher %.

I checked the video you posted, and you have ~30 frames after being grabbed before Bowser jumps into the air and can start moving, and ~40 more frames after that before he starts plummeting. I would think that would be enough time to react, especially considering the extremely distinct sound effect.

But hey, Dabuz got hit by it somehow so maybe i'm the idiot here

has somehow managed to miss the buff train time after time despite almost never appearing in any top 8s and already better characters like Ness, Sonic and Cloud all getting buffs. He's not a bad character but he also has close to no significance on the meta and glaring flaws in both frame data and mobility. His sword got bigger but his frame data got even worse from SSB4. He's a sword zoner/projectile zoner hybrid but in that his abilities are weaker than pure characters of either catagory. He gets outbuttoned by swordies with better mobility and frame data and outcamped by better projectile characters. Buff his terrible frame 8 jab to f6 to get it on par with slow swordies like Hero's and give him several startup buffs to bring him more in line with his SSB4 self. Ftilt f15-12, DA f20-15, Fsmash f17-15, Fair f16-14. He'd still be imoble and slow but not terribly so.

I really don't think minor frame data improvements are going to be the thing that suddenly makes Link viable, especially considering he has one of the best OoS options in the game in Spin Attack.

 

[Hippieslayer]

is a good yet well balanced character but I do have one complaint: koopa klaw aka body slam doesn't give the opponent enough time to react so Bowser can force stock trades even when he's at a much higher %. This kind of thing is stupid, especially on wifi. Klaw should linger in the air longer upon contact so the opponent can react.

if its gonna linger in the air arent people just gonna mash out of it even onstage? IMO people are just bad at doing it and Bowser doesn't need any nerfs.

 

[J0eyboi]

if its gonna linger in the air arent people just gonna mash out of it even onstage?

you can't mash out of flying slam

 

[NairWizard]

Every time I see buffs or nerfs suggested they so radically change the fundamental design of a character. It's possible to nerf or buff characters properly without changing their identity or removing/adding weaknesses. The name of the game is subtlety. All it takes is +2 frames of startup on an important move to tone down an overtuned character sometimes (excellent example here being ZSS boost kick which absolutely gave her more losing matchups and made several of her winning matchups closer to even).

 

[MrGameguycolor]

you can't mash out of flying slam

Wait, you can't?

Damn it, another E3 rumor that stuck with me...

 

[Sucumbio]

Could Dabuz maybe have done a better job keeping out of range while using Min Min? BF kinda cramped tho I'll give him that.

 

[blackghost]

we are not talking about nerfing bowser because dabuz had a brain fart in a set everyone saw. that's irresponsible and ridiculous. this game is 2 years old thats basic knowledge of the character matchup.
baeblades weight is an outliner but i can't really call it egregious thier recovery is bad people still let them back A LOT when they shouldnt.

they should remove soras bugs and ideally add symbols to heros abilities. other than that the character balance in this game is rather impressive best balenced game ive seen since killer instinct.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

we are not talking about nerfing bowser because dabuz had a brain fart in a set everyone saw. that's irresponsible and ridiculous. this game is 2 years old thats basic knowledge of the character matchup.
baeblades weight is an outliner but i can't really call it egregious thier recovery is bad people still let them back A LOT when they shouldnt.

they should remove soras bugs and ideally add symbols to heros abilities. other than that the character balance in this game is rather impressive best balenced game ive seen since killer instinct.

I think your understating just how absurdly well LeoN played that Matchup. No offense ti Dabuz, but LeoN simply outplayed him and had an answer foe everything. He parried Min-Min's arms at the right times to gain advantage , exploited Min-Min offstage almost as much as Min-Min should to Bowser and many other things.

Leon has beaten Dabuz's Min-Min previously.So its clear he knows how to play vs the character.


The main issue I have witg Pyra/ Mythra its Blazing End. Sparg0 in was getting ridiculous milage off it at Low Tide City in paticular. It can even work as a solid kill move and can be used offstage to cover herself to get on the ledge. Maybe increase the startup if the move by a couple frames or decrease the amount of frames it lingers. Right now it is pretty spammable and abusable as a neutral tool with very little risk for A lot of matchups

Toning Blazing End down a bit and reducing Mythra's weight a bit would be perfecty reasonable nerfs that would not harm the core cameplay and strengths of the Aegis

 

[J0eyboi]

I think your understating just how absurdly well LeoN played that Matchup. No offense ti Dabuz, but LeoN simply outplayed him and had an answer foe everything. He parried Min-Min's arms at the right times to gain advantage , exploited Min-Min offstage almost as much as Min-Min should to Bowser and many other things.

Leon has beaten Dabuz's Min-Min previously.So its clear he knows how to play vs the character.

who are you talking to? No one was saying LeoN didn't play the matchup well.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Cloudy released his Pyra/Mythra and Sephiroth matchup charts

Aegis and Sephiroth MU charts, I'll do Sora and Joker tomorrow.
I believe Sephiroth is somewhat between top 15-20 and Aegis are top 1-2 pic.twitter.com/4kkOZuTGXj

— Cloudy (@Cloudyos_) November 10, 2021

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Slight tangent here (I had no idea Mythra was so heavy lmao this character is cracked), but since I've seen that point fairly often I thought I'd address it - is it really meaningful to think of Arsene as a comeback mechanic?

He's gonna come out every stock in most games (unless you get cheesed despite having one of the best recoveries in the game), disappears in a poof if you lose 1/2 neutral exchanges (ie are losing, like if you get him your Arsene pop offstage and get ledgetrapped twice you're in a rough spot), and if you get him twice in a stock you're probably doing ok. The only thing that might qualify as comeback is the fact rebel gauge charges faster on your last stock, but you're likely to get him anyway and it feels more like a part of the character than any form of comeback (much like how I wouldn't consider Waft to be a comeback mechanic, it's just a dumb volatile tool on top of a very good character).

I guess having a powerful tool like that that can swing games counts as a comeback mechanic just because it makes games more volatile? But that'd extend the definition to a lot of tools (is DK a comeback mechanic by himself? lol), and I currently find it difficult to justify the term "comeback mechanic" outside of cases where the game directly looks at the stock count and rewards you for being behind.

Just for thoughts, our current comeback-ish mechanics in the game are:

• Aura, which is stronger if you're behind in stocks (that one counts).
• Arsene (cf above).
• Terry GO, that's more of a "win more" if anything - you only get it if you survive long enough, and it doesn't care whether you're currently behind or not.
• Sephiroth wing, which lasts longer if you're behind in stocks (that one counts).
• Rage Drive, which I'd put in the same category as Terry (although Kazuya is overall just a big pile of volatility lol).
• Rage in general, which is... weird. Can screw up some character combo paths, rewards you for surviving but also for taking first stock, doesn't care about stock count, it's more of its own thing at this point.

For Arsene, there's also the fact that when Joker loses a stock, he starts with like 20% of the gauge filled which means that Joker technically gets rewarded for dying should he have died with less than 20% of the gauge filled

I think your understating just how absurdly well LeoN played that Matchup. No offense ti Dabuz, but LeoN simply outplayed him and had an answer foe everything. He parried Min-Min's arms at the right times to gain advantage , exploited Min-Min offstage almost as much as Min-Min should to Bowser and many other things.

The point isn't that LeoN didn't play well but that Dabuz dying to Flying Slam was entirely his fault and that the reactionary take that it needs a nerf because a top player got hit by it is quite frankly, ridiculous. This reminds me of how Hero ban discussions came up when Samsora got Thwacked at 0% by I believe Akiro who from what I can gather has no notable Ultimate results. Samsora still won but that 1% Thwack chance took a stock and that was enough to get ban discussions going again.
TLDR: Typical reactionary takes from any fighting game

 

[ZephyrZ]

TBH LeoN hits people with Flying Slam cheese waaay more then he should, not just in that Dabuz set. I think a part of it is that Bowser is just so terrifying in the right hands that even top players can panic and choke against him.

I could see the case for it being nerfed, but it's not so much that it's overpowered as much as its a gimmick that isn't super vital to Bowser's kit. But I'm not sure how much a bigger reaction window will help when Bowser is a grappler designed specifically to make you panic and mess up.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Mainstage seeding
https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/qqvryx

 

[StoicPhantom]

Flying Slam is a frame 6 command grab that ignores the drawbacks of traditional grabs by allowing use of it in the air and thus being attached to Bowser's insane aerial mobility. Few grabs in the game are that fast and they are generally tied to standing grabs, which are limited in their usage. This one actually goes the other way and allows crazy things like aerial grabs, punishing shields from under platforms, crossups on shield, and suicide kills at even low percents.

It was never ok nor are Whirling Fortress and Flame Breath. I'm honestly surprised it took this long for people to start realizing how insane this character is. Why we are talking about nerfing the thoroughly mediocre (for top tier) Pyra/Mythra when this behemoth exists is puzzling to me.

I'm not advocating for nerfs, other than maybe universal nerfs to make top tiers a little less brainless, but I feel like Bowser should be on the chopping block before Pyra/Mythra are. His mobility is a little too good to justify his other attributes.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Flying Slam is a frame 6 command grab that ignores the drawbacks of traditional grabs by allowing use of it in the air and thus being attached to Bowser's insane aerial mobility. Few grabs in the game are that fast and they are generally tied to standing grabs, which are limited in their usage. This one actually goes the other way and allows crazy things like aerial grabs, punishing shields from under platforms, crossups on shield, and suicide kills at even low percents.

It was never ok nor are Whirling Fortress and Flame Breath. I'm honestly surprised it took this long for people to start realizing how insane this character is. Why we are talking about nerfing the thoroughly mediocre (for top tier) Pyra/Mythra when this behemoth exists is puzzling to me.

I'm not advocating for nerfs, other than maybe universal nerfs to make top tiers a little less brainless, but I feel like Bowser should be on the chopping block before Pyra/Mythra are. His mobility is a little too good to justify his other attributes.

Bowser's MU spread is also just okay at best due to being a heavy and having a rough disadvantage state. He's a solid high tier and what a heavy should be (aka, actually a good character). No.

You want to target a broken heavy with nerfs? Target .

 

[Hippieslayer]

Flying Slam is a frame 6 command grab that ignores the drawbacks of traditional grabs by allowing use of it in the air and thus being attached to Bowser's insane aerial mobility. Few grabs in the game are that fast and they are generally tied to standing grabs, which are limited in their usage. This one actually goes the other way and allows crazy things like aerial grabs, punishing shields from under platforms, crossups on shield, and suicide kills at even low percents.

It was never ok nor are Whirling Fortress and Flame Breath. I'm honestly surprised it took this long for people to start realizing how insane this character is. Why we are talking about nerfing the thoroughly mediocre (for top tier) Pyra/Mythra when this behemoth exists is puzzling to me.

I'm not advocating for nerfs, other than maybe universal nerfs to make top tiers a little less brainless, but I feel like Bowser should be on the chopping block before Pyra/Mythra are. His mobility is a little too good to justify his other attributes.

All the super heavyweights have insane moves and they need them. Bowser isn't that good, Leon pushes the character very far but there's a lot of matchups where he can't do anything unless the opponent screws up and a ton of matchups which Bowser loses but Leon manages to win anyway because people are not ready. Flame breath isn't even that good, yeah it does a lot of damage but it's also a laggy risky move and there's lots of **** that's safer than flame breath that leads to similar damage in this game such as.. combos. Bowser doesn't need to be on the chopping block at all. Why do you even think he does? And moreso than Pythra? Pass that blunt bro.

 

[KirbySquad101]

Given what we know about the state of Spirits, we can expect another update sometime later, and traditionally speaking, very few updates that weren't emergency hotfixes didn't end up having any balance patches alongside them, thus, we can expect a balance patch sometime in the future. The question at that point then becomes "what are we getting for that balance patch"? If I were to group it up:

1. The "most likely not going to happen":

• A complete overhaul of mechanics or a mass character buffing/fixing/nerfing across the board (i.e. patch 8.0). As much as I would like for a major shake-up like this, there has been only one instance of this in the history of Ultimate, and any chances for anymore instances of this feel less likely as time goes by. After all, Smash Ultimate isn't really the type of game that needs to constantly "re-invent" the wheel like games like NASB, DBFZ, or GG Strive have to; its monumentous roster gurantees something new will happen right around the corner, and while I know people are sick to death of characters like repeatedly staying dominant throughout Ultimate's lifespan (I am kind of tired of them myself at this point), I don't think anyone could've predicted to suddenly start performing well.
• The buffs people "want": Unless what you're looking for is frame data or knockback buffs for your character, air speed buffs or "don't let the Mechakoopa die on block" buffs or anything that outright changes the dynamics of the characters has always been an extreme rarity barring a few exceptions (i.e. 's minor weight/hurtbox buffs).

2. The "could happen?" :

• Nerfs to certain top tier threats. And by "certain", I mean characters who persistently show signs of strong peak placements and global dominating representation all over (i.e. no, for the 50th time, aren't getting nerfed). What that does include, however, is characters like , who've all shown llittle to no signs of relinquishing their top spots at the moment. Nerfs have always been more rare than buffs, so I wouldn't exactly count on our next patch having any sort of nerfs, but if we were to get any, those 5 would be prime targets. What I'm NOT expecing at all is any sort of major nerfs. We've long since passed the days of the kneecap busting suffered through, and given the subtetly of their nerfs in more recent times, I'm not expecting much beyond frame data/knockback nerfs. To be fair, I think that's all you need for some of these characters: An UAir endlag nerf to the Aegis or a BAir knockback nerf to Wolf can go a long way in my opinion (the former of which I'm surprised NO ONE has talked about yet with what a DLC move that attack is, seriously, what is that AC window).

3. The "safe bets":

• Traditionally speaking, underperforming characters are most likely due for buffs yet again, and it'll be welcome to see. Characters like continue to lag behind despite attempts to buff them prior, and characters who haven't been adjusted yet at all () are pontentially in the cards for some changes given their "have seen happier days" state at the moment. Characters who aren't completely failing (i.e. in the 65-50 range results-wise) but also rely on a singular entity for their results () are harder to pin down, but I wouldn't completely dismiss them out of the equation either in terms of potential buffs.
• Bug fixes or some sort of standardization: This has happened in the past (look at the sleep frame data standardizations), and it's most likely we'll be seeing something along those lines.

Tbh, I'm not sure why I'm talking about this when the patch hasn't even been announced yet, but eh, this'll be something I can copypasta for when that time comes lol.

 

[StoicPhantom]

Bowser's MU spread is also just okay at best due to being a heavy and having a rough disadvantage state. He's a solid high tier and what a heavy should be (aka, actually a good character). No.

A "heavy" that has high aerial and ground mobility, good approach options, is the heaviest character in the game, Tough Guy, swordie frame data at worst, and an actually good recovery. AKA things a heavy doesn't usually have. Rizen's post a few posts above had a good example where Leon got a very early suicide kill off of an easy tech read on the platform. Being able to Flying Slam someone offstage from the innermost side of the platform really isn't ok. That's somehow worse than Chrom's Fair combo into Up-B offstage.

Meanwhile, we had a detailed post explaining how ROB's popularity has inflated his results and he's not as good as his data seems. So no.

Flame breath isn't even that good, yeah it does a lot of damage but it's also a laggy risky move and lots of **** that's safer than flame breath does a lot of damage.

You can check this set and see how a point blank Flame Breath managed to shield poke (?) a full shield and still do more damage than the Falcon Kick that came immediately after it (9:00). You can also count how many times a high mobility character like Falcon meaningfully punished it.

I'm not saying it necessarily needs nerfed, I'm saying it is pretty borderline. The fact that you can even do double digits on characters recovering under the ledge/hanging at the ledge is pretty big.

Bowser doesn't need to be on the chopping block at all. Why do you even think he does?

I'm not advocating for nerfs, other than maybe universal nerfs to make top tiers a little less brainless, but I feel like Bowser should be on the chopping block before Pyra/Mythra are

As the quote says, I think he should be looked at before Pyra/Mythra if we are going to start the nerf talk again. Not that I think characters need to be nerfed.

And moreso than Pythra? Pass that blunt bro.

These characters have been insanely overhyped since release and have since been outshone by ****ing Byleth. I would not at all be surprised if they end up another ROB situation where popularity inflates results.

Yeah, Mythra can get 50 and maaaaybe 70 off some pretty hard reads and mixups in her strings. Snake and Palutena can do just as much and usually more off of far easier combos. In fact, you won't find many top tiers that can't do 50 off of fairly easy mixups/actual combos.

Pyra can kill at like 80 off hard Fsmash reads. Remember Roy? Not feeling the reads? Now you are going to have to contend with her other moves killing unstaled near the ledge at like 130 at most. The moves that are generally required as spacing tools in her neutral and thus are likely to be staled. Yeah, she has an easy but situational confirm in Dair > Upsmash, but what top tier doesn't have at least one?

You might as well play Roy at this point as he's both a very fast swordie that's actually good on shield and has fiery kill options that will kill safer and earlier. You'll notice how Sparg0 can't seem to win versus better players like Tweek and MKLeo consistently, meaning that you still need to outplay your opponent without stupid **** like Arsene or Banana.

 

[NairWizard]

Bowser is definitely a big problem on Elite Smash specifically. You don't have the reaction windows to deal with him with even very low input lag. Offline, Bowser is really hard to play well, despite some amazing moves. Both in neutral and in disadvantage, Bowser gets into so many situations where the opponent can just react to whatever he's trying to set up.

For example, Lucina vs. Bowser is utterly awful on WiFi for Lucina, but flips to solidly Lucina favor offline because Lucina's reactionary ledgetrapping starts working consistently when there aren't input lag frames. Bowser's getup attack is huge, and he has jump side-b if you're shielding at ledge; online, it's hard to cover both jump and getup with (for instance) the classic Lucina fastfall n-air -> land d-tilt, even with a single frame of input lag. This doesn't just lead to more damage, it also sets up the kill since each time Bowser gets hit from a ledgetrapping scenario he has to risk up-b against Counter at higher percents. Taking a Bowser stock and eliminating Rage from an almost entirely reactionary situation makes a big difference in the MU.

Every time I see LeoN overcome things like this and still win matchups against the likes of ZSS, Chrom, Falco, etc., I'm amazed.

Bowser's really good (and by really good I mean top 40 in the cast), but to say that he's better than Pyra and Mythra is definitely a stretch.

Yeah, Mythra can get 50 and maaaaybe 70 off some pretty hard reads and mixups in her strings. Snake and Palutena can do just as much and usually more off of far easier combos. In fact, you won't find many top tiers that can't do 50 off of fairly easy mixups/actual combos.

This only tells part of the story. To condition someone to get hit by a Palutena n-air you have to get them to jump. With Mythra you can just get them to... do anything. Mythra's reactionary whiff punishing is actually insane. It's an incredibly uphill battle to play when one player is making educated guesses and the other is just physically reacting, which is something that Mythra can set up pretty easily. She basically forces you to start in the corner in some matchups so that you can b-throw to some early gimps (meaning she has to be careful to not react to an intentionally misleading visual cue, like Diddy pretending to pull out a banana by crouching).

By far the best thing about the character, though, is the ledgetrapping. Both Pyra and Mythra have some crazy ledgetrapping setups and can keep you at ledge for days on reaction.

Yeah, she has an easy but situational confirm in Dair > Upsmash, but what top tier doesn't have at least one?

I don't think d-air -> up-smash is very situational. d-air hits through platforms so you can platform camp reasonably effectively with some mixups like drop through n-air. d-air -> up-smash also kills really early given how well Mythra controls neutral. You even see Leo (who is quite good at the matchup overall) get hit by this confirm reasonably often vs. sparg0. Leo's not the type of player to get hit by situational confirms multiple times in a set, so that's certainly saying something.

When you have the lead, Pyra's hitboxes are pretty scary/hard to approach through. f-tilt, up-air, b-air, n-air, d-air offer excellent coverage, each covering multiple options (n-air in particular is a very unusual move in a swordie kit, and can catch opponents avoiding your other aerials with even slightly delayed drifts). b-air is a safe option to cover ledge roll that will sometimes kill you off the top, which isn't something that a lot of top tiers have (they have to commit much harder to get the kill off of a ledge roll, like Palutena would have to f-smash or up-smash or set up an edgeguard, or b-air to the side).

Honorable mention to offstage Pyra f-air. sparg0 makes that move look unstoppable.

With all that said, I agree that Pyra and Mythra are overhyped, but to me it has more to do with Mythra's problems vs. a shielding opponent in neutral than their kill power and damage output, and the "what happens if you don't have the lead and you have to play as Pyra" situation. It's really hard for Pyra to get anything started if an opponent just refuses to engage, and it's equally hard to force a shielding opponent to, well, stop shielding, if Mythra is behind in percent. You've got, what, double jump mixup into landing grab? That's pretty risky. Wolf and Palutena can just safely disengage from a losing situation and condition for b-air setups. Pyra/Mythra are sometimes out of luck when down.

They're still likely better than Bowser though.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Flying Slam is purely a cheese move when it comes to suicide KOs.

However both times it happened in game 3 at Dabuz vs LeoN, could've easily been avoided if Dabuz held towards the direction of the stage. The opponent has about as much influence over the move's trajectory as Bowser, and influence gets greater the higher percent Bowser is. The second time was close to the edge, so it makes sense that Dabuz was caught off guard, but Dabuz had all the time in the world to stop the first one from happening.

It has been designed this way since Brawl, and in that game (and in pre-1.0.4 versions of SSB4), the opponent actually died before Bowser if Bowser has the lower port (and would result in sudden death if Bowser has the higher port). Bowser only cheese KOs you with it if you are unfamiliar with how it works and caught off guard, or if he snatches you very deep offstage which is typically too risky to go for.


Regarding viability, it isn't just LeoN that consistently pushes this character to great heights in the highest levels of play. HERO in Japan also does so as well, especially back in the online days, consistently hanging with some of Japan's best. The character is very good, and the best superheavy by a large margin, which isn't hard to accomplish since the rest of them pretty much hang in the lower tiers.

That being said, the character definitely doesn't deserve any nerfs. That is like saying that characters like Ness, Cloud, Greninja, Olimar, or Terry needs nerfs. Just because the character is pretty good, doesn't mean that the character needs the nerf hammer. As long as you only target the top of the food chain, which the devs has already been doing, then you are good to go.

 

[blackghost]

These characters have been insanely overhyped since release and have since been outshone by ****ing Byleth. I would not at all be surprised if they end up another ROB situation where popularity inflates results.

i think both of ya'll need to take some deep breathes here but lets try and not get crazy here. Byleth hasnt outshone pyra. MK Leo has outshone everyone. byleth isnt better than mythra. thats not worth a debate.


How is there an argument ROB popularity is inflated? ROB's VIABILITY is inflated because he doesn't win top events or even tier 2 level events he gets crazy consistent top 16 and top 8 placements though. ROB will always place well hes a good and he has everything a character needs to suceed. ROBs issue is that he has random bad matchups with low tiers due to his size and fall speed and recovery. ROB is great at dealing with common characters but a character specialist (a bayo, kazuya, and a bunch of others) just mess him up.

we have character data rankings that support that opinion.

 

[StoicPhantom]

Bowser's really good (and by really good I mean top 40 in the cast), but to say that he's better than Pyra and Mythra is definitely a stretch.

Since this misunderstanding seems to be becoming a trend, let me clarify and say that I'm not saying that Bowser is a better character or that he deserves nerfs. I'm saying that specific moves might be looked at first before other moves when it comes to nerfs.

I think all of Pyra and Mythra's moves are perfectly balanced in the exact way the character needs to function. I think nerfs will actually negatively and unfairly impact the character if they are nerfed. I think that combined they are an average top tier.

I think that specific moves, mainly Flying Slam, could stand to be looked at before any of Pyra/Mythra's moves, but not necessarily needs nerfs. I think that given all the other attributes I've listed, he wouldn't be harmed unfairly with some tweaking on that move. Whether or not it does or doesn't need nerfed is up for debate, but it bothered me to see this move casually dismissed at the same time people were claiming Pyra/Mythra needed to be nerfed.

I personally believe Flying Slam is a bit much at the moment. Perhaps The_Bookworm is correct in that Dabuz could have used DI to avoid being sent offstage. But what if he tech rolled to the outer edge? Could he still have avoided it? And if not, how many other moves in the game can kill Dabuz at low percents?

This only tells part of the story.

Here I was pointing that Mythra doesn't actually get anymore than other top tiers even at her best, which the rest of your paragraph corroborated. Being primarily whiff punish and reaction-based means that opponents must be the ones to act first. That means conditions must be favorable like a favorable MU or having the lead. Which ultimately means you need to outplay your opponent like not falling for DIddy feints.

I'm not saying she doesn't have good stuff, I'm saying that needing to outplay your opponent is not nerf territory. We can see Sparg0 struggling versus opponents that don't commit in some sets.

I don't think d-air -> up-smash is very situational.

I will concede that I may have undersold this confirm. I'm still skeptical about Pyra's kill potential overall. Not to say its not adequate, but that those matches with Maister are always too close for comfort on what should be a bad MU for G&W.

With all that said, I agree that Pyra and Mythra are overhyped, but to me it has more to do with Mythra's problems vs. a shielding opponent in neutral than their kill power and damage output, and the "what happens if you don't have the lead and you have to play as Pyra" situation. It's really hard for Pyra to get anything started if an opponent just refuses to engage, and it's equally hard to force a shielding opponent to, well, stop shielding, if Mythra is behind in percent. You've got, what, double jump mixup into landing grab? That's pretty risky. Wolf and Palutena can just safely disengage from a losing situation and condition for b-air setups. Pyra/Mythra are sometimes out of luck when down.

I agree and that's what my previous post was meant to allude to. They don't have anything extraordinary over other top tiers that would offset these issues to the point that we would need to consider nerfs. If you need to have favorable conditions and outplay your opponent to win, then you aren't strong enough to need nerfs. You can absolutely trap people in the air as Palutena and get early kills like you can ledgetrap as Snake and get big damage and early kills. There's nothing about Pyra/Mythra that's all that special in the end that affect the balance in the game.

Which is what my previous post was meant to convey.

i think both of ya'll need to take some deep breathes here but lets try and not get crazy here. Byleth hasnt outshone pyra. MK Leo has outshone everyone. byleth isnt better than mythra. thats not worth a debate.

Byleth has won multiple majors and has beaten Pythra at every one of them in results. I'm not a fan of x player carries their character primarily because MKLeo is not carrying Ike or Lucina to win these majors after dropping them due to viability concerns. If a tier list is supposed to tell you how well a character does versus the rest of the cast, which is ultimately supposed to tell you how viable your chances at winning are, then I think a character that can win multiple majors speaks for itself.

Byleth is a character that can win majors and people need to accept that.

How is there an argument ROB popularity is inflated?

Meanwhile, we had a detailed post explaining how ROB's popularity has inflated his results and he's not as good as his data seems.

Check the link in that quote why ROB's popularity may be inflating his results (Orion points).

 

[Thinkaman]

It's funny. I'm really conservative with patch changes, andI have a lower view of Aegis than most people. Yet I am still pretty okay with hypothetical Aegis nerfs.

It's actually identical to how I was okay with Min Min nerfs previously, which did come to pass. They are not a problem, but from where we're standing are the most likely to become a problem.

• Aegis results are specifically accelerating
• Players are switching to Aegis (more than other characters)
• Players who switch to Aegis are seeing (relatively) immediate results

All of those make the situation sound worse than it is; the quantitative details aren't that alarming. But these are exactly the sort of factors that should be the highest concern when planning balance changes.

I'm not sure I'd support nerfs for anyone else except a haircut for ROB.

There's a usual variety of bottom-half characters I'd be happy to see buffed, but at this point it's a broad and shallow pool. Never thought I'd see the day where I am uninterested in more Puff buffs, and am most interested in buffs for... reaches to bottom of the barrel ...Robin? ...Link?

Of course, Ganon is always his own thing. We all know what the score is.

 

[Nah]

Byleth has won multiple majors and has beaten Pythra at every one of them in results. I'm not a fan of x player carries their character primarily because MKLeo is not carrying Ike or Lucina to win these majors after dropping them due to viability concerns. If a tier list is supposed to tell you how well a character does versus the rest of the cast, which is ultimately supposed to tell you how viable your chances at winning are, then I think a character that can win multiple majors speaks for itself.

Byleth is a character that can win majors and people need to accept that.

I agree with you that Flying Slam is rather undersold by people. It's a ****ing frame 6 command grab attached to one of the most mobile superheavies and can kill you whether or not Bowser takes you offstage with it.

But I can't really get behind the whole Byleth is better than mid tier thing.

I've just never really cared for the idea of basing a character's viability on the performance of one or two people. A true sign of viability to me is multiple people across multiple skill levels doing well. If a character is really that good, other people should be seeing similar levels of success. And on top of that, the one person in particular in regards to Byleth is MKLeo--the guy generally considered to long be Smash Ultimate's best player, who has a noted great affinity for sword wielders.

like, I get to some degree why people focus on tippy-top level play, but it's usually meant more to me to look at the realm of us mere mortals instead of what matters in the realm of like 100 or so people on the planet

 

[J0eyboi]

I personally believe Flying Slam is a bit much at the moment. Perhaps The_Bookworm is correct in that Dabuz could have used DI to avoid being sent offstage. But what if he tech rolled to the outer edge? Could he still have avoided it? And if not, how many other moves in the game can kill Dabuz at low percents?

First of all, that's not what DI means.

Second of all, yes, Dabuz probably could've avoided getting bowsercided, even extremely close to the ledge, unless I'm completely misunderstanding how the move works, which I don't think I am.

Third, a lot of moves can kill Dabuz at low percents. Shockingly, Dabuz isn't perfect and fighting games are full of bull****. oh wow I forgot about the forum censor

Byleth has won multiple majors and has beaten Pythra at every one of them in results. I'm not a fan of x player carries their character primarily because MKLeo is not carrying Ike or Lucina to win these majors after dropping them due to viability concerns. If a tier list is supposed to tell you how well a character does versus the rest of the cast, which is ultimately supposed to tell you how viable your chances at winning are, then I think a character that can win multiple majors speaks for itself.

Byleth is a character that can win majors and people need to accept that.

Full disclosure, I just started following Smash again after passively observing the scene from the outside for the past 2 years, so I'm completely out of the loop wrt Pithra. That said, saying they've been outshone by Byleth just because Mkleo is winning with Byleth feels pretty shaky.

 

[Nobie]

Flying Slam definitely should not be changed, in my opinion. It's the linchpin to Bowser's entire kit, specifically the ability for him to choose between a quicker yet shorter grab and a slower yet longer one.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Something to note about .

It isn't just the fact that MkLeo is the only player pushing the character to the heights where he is, the heights of winning 3 majors with mostly the character after offline returned.

It is the fact that MkLeo is pretty much the only player that actually uses Byleth in high level, period.

Byleth has one of the bleakest high level playerbases in the entire game, with mid level representation also being very low.
Outside of Ly who recently picked up the character as a co-main/secondary, I can't think of anyone else who actually uses this character.

When MkLeo started dominating with over two years ago, this thread was in large arguments of talking about how problematic the character is. One of the main things brought up is that Leo is the only one getting far and top 8'ing major events.

While this argument is somewhat true, thanks to MkLeo, Joker sprouted himself a very large playerbase in all levels of play. Not quite R.O.B. or Roy levels of big, but still one of the largest in the entire game.
Without MkLeo, Byleth's presence in high level play would be close-to-nonexistent, especially with Pelupelu being purely an online player (who is currently inactive at the moment).


So while MkLeo's success proves that Byleth is indeed very potent force to be reckoned with, with this character once being viewed by many as low tier (lower-mid tier at best), pessimism over the character's viability in the long run is a bit understandable.
I don't think we have any character in Smash history quite like in terms of metagame presence.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Something to note about .

It isn't just the fact that MkLeo is the only player pushing the character to the heights where he is, the heights of winning 3 majors with mostly the character after offline returned.

It is the fact that MkLeo is pretty much the only player that actually uses Byleth in high level, period.

Byleth has one of the bleakest high level playerbases in the entire game, with mid level representation also being very low.
Outside of Ly who recently picked up the character as a co-main/secondary, I can't think of anyone else who actually uses this character.

When MkLeo started dominating with over two years ago, this thread was in large arguments of talking about how problematic the character is. One of the main things brought up is that Leo is the only one getting far and top 8'ing major events.

While this argument is somewhat true, thanks to MkLeo, Joker sprouted himself a very large playerbase in all levels of play. Not quite R.O.B. or Roy levels of big, but still one of the largest in the entire game.
Without MkLeo, Byleth's presence in high level play would be close-to-nonexistent, especially with Pelupelu being purely an online player (who is currently inactive at the moment).


So while MkLeo's success proves that Byleth is indeed very potent force to be reckoned with, with this character once being viewed by many as low tier (lower-mid tier at best), pessimism over the character's viability in the long run is a bit understandable.
I don't think we have any character in Smash history quite like in terms of metagame presence.

Rizeasu plays as a secondary, but he also plays a lot of different characters as well and a lot of different FE characters (Notably and ), so I don't know how much that counts.

 

[Dan Quixote]

Tbh, I'm not sure why I'm talking about this when the patch hasn't even been announced yet, but eh, this'll be something I can copypasta for when that time comes lol.

Shoot that reminds me... Now that we won't have any big fighter announcements and subsequent release dates, we have nothing close to a timeframe for when the next balance patch will drop, don't we? It won't even be tied to Nintendo Directs like fighter announcements.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Shoot that reminds me... Now that we won't have any big fighter announcements and subsequent release dates, we have nothing close to a timeframe for when the next balance patch will drop, don't we? It won't even be tied to Nintendo Directs like fighter announcements.

That is correct. Whenever the next patch drops is a complete mystery. Do note that Nintendo's Twitter account lets us know 1-3 days in advance whenever a patch comes out, but there is no schedule on when a patch is coming.

We do know that there will be one at Spring 2022 for amiibo functionality purposes, assuming that the functionality is not already in the game, but that is all we know.

 

[blackghost]

if Byleth was truly a top-level threat more players at high or top players would consider picking him up. look at all these players considering roy, sora, and others.

also can we end this discussion: flying. slam. is. fine. the move has worked the same for more than 10 years.

Lima is getting a lot of respect in that mainstage seeding that's good to see.

Larry Larry seems kinda low at first glance.

 

[StoicPhantom]

I've just never really cared for the idea of basing a character's viability on the performance of one or two people. A true sign of viability to me is multiple people across multiple skill levels doing well. If a character is really that good, other people should be seeing similar levels of success. And on top of that, the one person in particular in regards to Byleth is MKLeo--the guy generally considered to long be Smash Ultimate's best player, who has a noted great affinity for sword wielders.

I guess it might come down to a matter of perspective. To me, peak results matter because I believe only a few players can actually reach the top. The characters may change, but we generally see the same faces in top 16 at these majors. I believe the characters are tools that allow players to channel their full potential in varying degrees, but I don't think they matter outside that.

As a competitive player, I'm only interested in that 0.1% and I view all other levels as simply earlier stages in fundamental refining. I don't think character differences really matter until you hit that top level and any discrepancies at lower levels can be fixed through getting better yourself.

MKLeo being number one actually makes me respect the character he uses more. Being the best ultimately means you're surrounded by the best and thus you can't show any weakness. If anything, at that level character differences are the utmost importance because you can't have anything holding you back if you want to fend off world class challengers. This idea that he's just nonchalantly levitating above the rest of us and not at the epicenter of stress is mistaken, I believe. If Byleth can consistently work at that level then as far as I'm concerned, Byleth can work at any level. It comes entirely down to the player at that point.

Full disclosure, I just started following Smash again after passively observing the scene from the outside for the past 2 years, so I'm completely out of the loop wrt Pithra. That said, saying they've been outshone by Byleth just because Mkleo is winning with Byleth feels pretty shaky.

Looking through all 13 majors after their release, I count seven times Pythra made top 8 as a primary fighter. The players were MKLeo (1), Sparg0 (3), Cosmos (2), Shuton (1).

After Summit, I count four times Byleth was a primary fighter in top 8. The player was MKLeo and he only attended four of the five NA majors at the time. He won three and placed second in the fourth one.


The most notable thing here to me is that our boy wonder could not carry Pythra to the same heights he supposedly carries Byleth. If it was all MKLeo's skill doing the work, I feel like Pythra's peak results would look better than they are. If he's the sword king, all the more. Instead, he's managed to win three majors with Byleth in less than half the collective Pythra tries. That's a character that's been hyped to be top 3 since release struggling to win a major between four highly skilled players versus a previously forgotten mid tier that's managed to win three majors in less than two months. All at the height of Pythra hype.

If that's not outshining, then you'll have to clarify what outshining even is. There's clearly a reason MKLeo dropped Pythra for Byleth. Meanwhile, solo Sora managed to win his first supermajor on week 2 from release...

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

I guess it might come down to a matter of perspective. To me, peak results matter because I believe only a few players can actually reach the top. The characters may change, but we generally see the same faces in top 16 at these majors. I believe the characters are tools that allow players to channel their full potential in varying degrees, but I don't think they matter outside that.

As a competitive player, I'm only interested in that 0.1% and I view all other levels as simply earlier stages in fundamental refining. I don't think character differences really matter until you hit that top level and any discrepancies at lower levels can be fixed through getting better yourself.

MKLeo being number one actually makes me respect the character he uses more. Being the best ultimately means you're surrounded by the best and thus you can't show any weakness. If anything, at that level character differences are the utmost importance because you can't have anything holding you back if you want to fend off world class challengers. This idea that he's just nonchalantly levitating above the rest of us and not at the epicenter of stress is mistaken, I believe. If Byleth can consistently work at that level then as far as I'm concerned, Byleth can work at any level. It comes entirely down to the player at that point.


Looking through all 13 majors after their release, I count seven times Pythra made top 8 as a primary fighter. The players were MKLeo (1), Sparg0 (3), Cosmos (2), Shuton (1).

After Summit, I count four times Byleth was a primary fighter in top 8. The player was MKLeo and he only attended four of the five NA majors at the time. He won three and placed second in the fourth one.


The most notable thing here to me is that our boy wonder could not carry Pythra to the same heights he supposedly carries Byleth. If it was all MKLeo's skill doing the work, I feel like Pythra's peak results would look better than they are. If he's the sword king, all the more. Instead, he's managed to win three majors with Byleth in less than half the collective Pythra tries. That's a character that's been hyped to be top 3 since release struggling to win a major between four highly skilled players versus a previously forgotten mid tier that's managed to win three majors in less than two months. All at the height of Pythra hype.

If that's not outshining, then you'll have to clarify what outshining even is. There's clearly a reason MKLeo dropped Pythra for Byleth. Meanwhile, solo Sora managed to win his first supermajor on week 2 from release...

Or MkLeo's Pyra/Mythra isn't as good as his Byleth because it's not his type of sword character that he likes. It doesn't work with his style like Roy.

Hell, Leo's Pyra/Mythra is not the best Pyra/Mythra, that's Sparg0's, and I think by a huge difference.

 

[StoicPhantom]

Or MkLeo's Pyra/Mythra isn't as good as his Byleth because it's not his type of sword character that he likes. It doesn't work with his style like Roy.

Hell, Leo's Pyra/Mythra is not the best Pyra/Mythra, that's Sparg0's, and I think by a huge difference.

Correct. Which means he can't actually carry any character he wants. It needs to fit his style and it needs to actually be good. Thus why he dropped Ike and Lucina and picked up Byleth instead.

 

[NairWizard]

Looking exclusively at top-level play isn't right, but looking equally at all levels of play also isn't right. The first lens would tell you that Byleth is the best character. The second would tell you that ROB is. And both of those views are "wrong," or at least only tell you part of the story.

We should focus on top level because things that happen at top level tend to percolate down to lower levels over time. Top Roys start using d-tilt techchases more often, then high-level Roys start emulating that and enjoying more success because of it. MKLeo's Joker does up-air drag-down d-smash at ledge and then you get a dozen more Jokers also doing up-air drag-down d-smash.

But this doesn't always happen, because some strategies don't translate well. It could be because the players at other levels just aren't as good--your regional powerhouse Roy may not be as good at reacting to aerial drift as Kola's Roy is, leading to a much less punishing advantage state. But it could also be because they're choosing less optimal playstyles or different areas of focus. Your regional Jokers may have their advantage state down, but may be using lots of dash attack and other reckless burst options in neutral, thereby losing matchups that they should be winning.

The translation process is selective. The best, most replicable parts of a character's top-level kit spreads to all levels, but not everything does, and it's not always, or even usually, because of hard limits like player ability.

So if you want a real view of the meta, the important consideration is not just who's doing well at the top vs. other levels, but also how are other levels doing, and why are they doing as well as they're doing relative to the top. Why is Leo the only good Byleth? Does no one want to play the character, are the other Byleths not reacting as fast as Leo is after up-b, is their ledgetrapping worse, what exactly is holding them back from performing better?

Byleth's tools are particularly strong at top level. Ledgetraps and onstage edgeguards are popular at top level and Byleth deals well with both. As we saw as Port Priority, Byleth can tether past many of Ness' up-b edgeguard attempts, and as we saw at Riptide and Low Tide, Byleth can stall at ledge to avoid reactive ledgetraps. Also, most top players feel much more comfortable taking risks at center stage because that's the best way to play the game. Byleth's access to n-air and a stage-length projectile (however bad) means that Byleth is uniquely strong at playing from the corner, whereas most other swordies need to hold center stage.

These are useful traits when you're up against a top-level competitor but may not be as useful when you're against someone who prioritizes a different skillset like riskier edgeguarding or making riskier reads at corner. I suspect that Leo's Byleth will eventually run into a wall where it can't keep winning/placing 1st because of Byleth's neutral limitations, and lean more on Joker, which is actually making tournaments really exciting. "When will Leo run into problems with Byleth" is a big motivator for me to watch tournaments every single time.

 

[Thinkaman]

Looking exclusively at top-level play isn't right, but looking equally at all levels of play also isn't right. The first lens would tell you that Byleth is the best character. The second would tell you that ROB is. And both of those views are "wrong," or at least only tell you part of the story.

That highway goes a lot longer. Keep going broader and you'll find Ness as the top character. Go far enough and it's probably like, Kirby.

The game probably has, for any given metric defining "best", 6-12 different best characters depending on level of play being discussed.

 

[NairWizard]

That highway goes a lot longer. Keep going broader and you'll find Ness as the top character. Go far enough and it's probably like, Kirby.

The game probably has, for any given metric defining "best", 6-12 different best characters depending on level of play being discussed.

Yeah, for sure, by fiat of this thread of I assumed some level of competitive tournament play as the threshold.

Where "competitive play" starts is actually a tricky question worth thinking about. Obviously anyone trying to win is being "competitive," but at some point, the differences between levels are more about execution and decision-making than just doing the wrong things at a macro level, such as dash attacking into shields, overcommitting on ledgetraps, etc).

"The level at which players are mostly doing the right things" is probably a reasonable threshold, though it's still possible to come in with the wrong gameplan even at the very highest level. We see this all the time for "poor" top player matchups (though, important caveat here: when a top player has a "poor" matchup, they're still likely winning that matchup against 90%+ of competitors, or more, so they have to be doing some things "right"). In these cases we tend to lean on theory a bit harder. For example, we might say, "Byleth should be losing to ZSS; Marss isn't punishing side-b hard enough."

Regardless of relevance, some levels of play are easier to talk about than others. At the very bottom you have players who probably are never edgeguarding or ledgetrapping successfully, or even juggling. It'd be (relatively) easy to look at the data about who the best is at this level and explain it with theory, and then hypothesize about the future of that meta.

But at another level you might have a mix of inconsistent ledgetrapping, inconsistent edgeguarding, and inconsistent juggling. This type of level is much harder to reason about, first because it's harder to figure out which players are even at that level, and because the players themselves are continuously improving. Because these players are looking toward the top-level players of their characters and know what they should be doing, they're getting better, so it's hard to pinpoint where they are or are going to end up.

This is of course why we look at the top level so much, insofar as it tends to predict meta shifts at lower levels, but in my original post I was explaining why that isn't always the case.

 

[Trunks159]

Since this misunderstanding seems to be becoming a trend, let me clarify and say that I'm not saying that Bowser is a better character or that he deserves nerfs. I'm saying that specific moves might be looked at first before other moves when it comes to nerfs.

I think all of Pyra and Mythra's moves are perfectly balanced in the exact way the character needs to function. I think nerfs will actually negatively and unfairly impact the character if they are nerfed. I think that combined they are an average top tier.

I think that specific moves, mainly Flying Slam, could stand to be looked at before any of Pyra/Mythra's moves, but not necessarily needs nerfs. I think that given all the other attributes I've listed, he wouldn't be harmed unfairly with some tweaking on that move. Whether or not it does or doesn't need nerfed is up for debate, but it bothered me to see this move casually dismissed at the same time people were claiming Pyra/Mythra needed to be nerfed.

I personally believe Flying Slam is a bit much at the moment. Perhaps The_Bookworm is correct in that Dabuz could have used DI to avoid being sent offstage. But what if he tech rolled to the outer edge? Could he still have avoided it? And if not, how many other moves in the game can kill Dabuz at low percents?


Here I was pointing that Mythra doesn't actually get anymore than other top tiers even at her best, which the rest of your paragraph corroborated. Being primarily whiff punish and reaction-based means that opponents must be the ones to act first. That means conditions must be favorable like a favorable MU or having the lead. Which ultimately means you need to outplay your opponent like not falling for DIddy feints.

I'm not saying she doesn't have good stuff, I'm saying that needing to outplay your opponent is not nerf territory. We can see Sparg0 struggling versus opponents that don't commit in some sets.


I will concede that I may have undersold this confirm. I'm still skeptical about Pyra's kill potential overall. Not to say its not adequate, but that those matches with Maister are always too close for comfort on what should be a bad MU for G&W.


I agree and that's what my previous post was meant to allude to. They don't have anything extraordinary over other top tiers that would offset these issues to the point that we would need to consider nerfs. If you need to have favorable conditions and outplay your opponent to win, then you aren't strong enough to need nerfs. You can absolutely trap people in the air as Palutena and get early kills like you can ledgetrap as Snake and get big damage and early kills. There's nothing about Pyra/Mythra that's all that special in the end that affect the balance in the game.

Which is what my previous post was meant to convey.


Byleth has won multiple majors and has beaten Pythra at every one of them in results. I'm not a fan of x player carries their character primarily because MKLeo is not carrying Ike or Lucina to win these majors after dropping them due to viability concerns. If a tier list is supposed to tell you how well a character does versus the rest of the cast, which is ultimately supposed to tell you how viable your chances at winning are, then I think a character that can win multiple majors speaks for itself.

Byleth is a character that can win majors and people need to accept that.



Check the link in that quote why ROB's popularity may be inflating his results (Orion points).

Well said but I do disagree on the main point.
's side be is similarly strong, 's cargo throw is pretty great against bad recoveries, 's uptilt is just clearly bonkers, and's ewgf is very strong. Point is heavies have nonsensically powerful moves that if you threw on a character like , they'd obviously be not ok, but on slow characters they just aren't as oppressive.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

SNIP

And there's

Oh poor , he can hope for a Nair, F-Smash, &/or Up-Smash fixes.
The latter two don't come up often but are so frustrating when they do.
(He was literally one frame away)

Maybe if he's lucky he'll get a better kill throw, which is still odd that none of them stack up to 's B-Throw, the quintessential horizontal kill-throw.