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Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

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    588

The_Bookworm

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To note a few things:

:ultdoc: down air has gone from frame 16 -> 14, and :ultlucario: down tilt has gone from frame 9 -> 7.
Cannot really test too much else frame data wise, but I am not really feeling too much difference with the :ultjigglypuff: back air and :ultkrool: forward air change.

FYI, I had no idea grounded Doc down B even had armor.
 

Rizen

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Very disappointing patch.

I'm downloading the update and can't test anything but can say a bit about :ultkrool:'s buffs. The main use of Utilt was as a kill move off Dthrow burying. It used to kill around 130-140% at the ledge, now it kills earlier. Uthrow killed at 160%, now it kills earlier. KRool already had a deadly throw game with Bthrow killing at 120% near the ledge and he has a 50/50 where Dthrow buries the opponent; if they mash, USmash kills around 110%, if they don't Fsmash kills. Now Krool has to rely on that for a smaller % range before outright killing from throws. Fair recovering earlier is nice as it's Krool's go to air poke and kill move. This might let him use more aerials offstage. His Fsmash is strong but otherwise bad. Slow and with poor range. That's probably slightly less true now.

Obviously Krool's not going to jump into high tier; he still has glaring weaknesses like his HUGE hurtbox. But if they want to keep inching him towards viability I'm not complaining.
 

The_Bookworm

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Thinkaman Thinkaman
It would appear that the SmashWiki was correct: Sonic Blade does put Sora into freefall, and if Sora doesn't use side B after using his up B, then it also puts him into freefall.

While we know that up B -> side B into wasn't true, a lot of people thought so for the longest time. Everyone quickly realized upon his release that it isn't true whatsoever, alongside their dreams of SSB4 Bayo ver 2. lol



Other observations I noticed:
  • Sora's back throw is indeed a KO throw at the ledge. It seems to be a copy-paste of :ultmario: back throw, but I need more data to confirm.
  • His forward and down smashes are very slow, but are very strong. His down smash seems to come out faster than K. Rool's and Ridley's equivalent, but lacks the range and power of both (or armor in the case of K. Rool).
  • Sora's up smash does indeed have a scoop hitbox. Down tilt also confirms into up smash, but the window for it actually KO'ing is very, very small. That window becomes much wider if it is done on the platforms though, so keep this in mind.
  • Sora's up B is strong! Granted that the training mode dummies do not know how to DI whatsoever.
  • If you follow Patriot Duck's advice on fastfalling neutral air 1, doing that will lead to a true KO combo into forward tilt at the ledge at higher percents. However, this is extremely risky to do, so be cautious. Also learned that this can work with up smash, but this is again, extremely risky.
  • Not sure if it just me, but it seems that Sora has the :ultness::ultlucas: airdodge, with higher distance than normal. Makes sense, since if Sora has the floaty PK Kids jump, and is designed to dominate the air, he might as well as their airdodge. Mewtwo cries in the corner.

Overall, this character's KO power is much better than expected. He is a pest to deal with when dealing with air to air interactions, unless you are close to him and have already pressed a fast button (which isn't hard to do given that Sora's frames is not that good) or have a larger disjoint (in which Sora's disjoint is average-at-best).

I am already seeing some notable issues with the character, however, given his mediocre frame data (especially on startup) and general floatiness. Safety with this character is going to be hard to overcome, and being a floaty character in the lighter side of the spectrum (same weight as Zelda) is an inherently notably flawed trait to have.



Btw, it is nice that some of the lower tiered characters are getting some buffs. However, only :ultjigglypuff: and :ultlittlemac: changes really interest me, as the rest of the changes doesn't seem to be very impactful for the other character's viabilities.
 
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SKX31

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No buffs to :ultganondorf:, :ultkirby:, :ultpit: or :ultbanjokazooie: feels really weird. I know Ganon is a stomper at lower levels, but it's still quite sad to see. The latter three could also use QoL fixes. Same goes for :ultswordfighter: and :ultpiranha: - both of which could use some hitbox / frame data adjustments.

Although... umm... Jigglypuff just got something:


Just to confirm, is this actually true? It really looks like it. If it is... holy moly (sure, it's on DK, but still).
 
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MrGameguycolor

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No buffs to :ultganondorf:, :ultkirby:, :ultpit: or :ultbanjokazooie: feels really weird. I know Ganon is a stomper at lower levels, but it's still quite sad to see. The latter three could also use QoL fixes. Same goes for :ultswordfighter: and :ultpiranha: - both of which could use some hitbox / frame data adjustments.

Although... umm... Jigglypuff just got something:


Just to confirm, is this actually true? It really looks like it. If it is... holy moly (sure, it's on DK, but still).
It's cute, but still DK...

Don't count on it.
If I'm wrong, I'm wrong.
 
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PK Gaming

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Couple of things:

+Sora's Air to Ground game is nuts. You can convert into high damage combos via fair/nair and more
+Sora does so much damage due to his combo gimmick, it's insane. He'll likely have a top class comeback game
+Sora has kill setups, and they're not that difficult either
+Neutral B is a huge part of his neutral. Firaga controls horizontal space, Thundaga controls both horizontal and vertical and is dangerously effective at KOIng near the ledge. Good edgeguard tool as well
+Side B has excellent burst range and can fake you out. Very punishable though, but Sora can mix up the timing. Helpful recovery tool, but opponents can mess him up by having Sora track them
+Aerial mobility is incredible but he's floaty
+Fsmash has high range, decent speed and is incredibly strong. Smash attacks are still niche, however
+- mixed on Blizzaga. Absurdly short range but is extremely damaging on shields and can freeze. Absolutely the worst of the 3, though
-Counter is borderline a wasted slot. But since he effectively has 3 neutral Bs, it's not too bad.
-Light (duh)
-Kinda slow on the ground (1.58 run speed)
-Floaty
 

KirbySquad101

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Sora's attributes have been found:


Overall movement stats are very reminiscent of the PK Kids, particularly Ness (below average air and ground speed, floaty with Kirby-tier gravity). It's about as much as what I expected lol.
 
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Idon

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Yeah I've zero confidence in this character. The Ness/Mewtwo style movement is putting me off really badly.

If he's good, he's definitely good in an unconventional way that'll take a specialist to bring out the full potential of. Certainly not an easy pocket like Aegis are.
 

Diem

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The_Bookworm

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Going to actively compare the mobility specs in a statistic with the rest of the cast now.


Grounded Mobility

Walk - 0.82
The 80th fastest walk speed, and the 10th slowest in the game. In-between Ken and Byleth.

Initial Dash - 1.78
The 71st fastest initial dash speed. In-between Ridley/Byleth and DH/Snake/Ryu/BowserJr/Incineroar.

Dash - 1.58
The 65th-66th fastest dash speed (tied with Mii Swordfighter). In-between Ivysaur/Corrin/Peach/Daisy/Snake and Bowser Jr.

Overall
Fairly sluggish grounded mobility overall. Not Steve, Pyra, or Kazuya tier of slow but still sluggish regardless.


Aerial Mobility

Air Speed - 0.96
The 65th fastest air speed. In-between Young Link and Pikachu.

Air Acceleration - Not recorded at this time.

Fall Speed - 1.44
The 66th fastest fall speed. In-between Mii Gunner and Steve.

Fast Fall Speed - 2.304
The 64th fastest fast fall speed. In-between Mii Gunner and Steve.

Gravity - 0.064
The 86th-87th highest gravity (tied with Kirby), and the 3rd-4th lowest in the entire game. In-between Olimar and Rosalina.

Overall
While far from the lowest air mobility stats (especially out of FP2), his air mobility stats are surprisingly low for an air-based character. Fall speed is surprisingly higher than expected (still in the lower end of the spectrum), but his very low gravity cannot be understated. He is definitely a character designed to stay in the air.


Other Attributes

Weight - 85
The 72nd-73rd heaviest character (tied with Zelda), and the 17th-18th lightest in the game. In-between Sonic/DH and Falco/Rosalina.

Traction - 0.086
The 77th-78th highest traction (tied with TLink), and the 12th-13th lowest in the game.
Traction is fairly unimportant in Ultimate since everyone's is so inherently high.

---------------------------------------------------

Fun fact: Sora's counter apparently outright knocks Banjo out of Wonderwing.... cause Banjo definitely needed more suffering.
The same applies with Min Min's ARMS attacks, so that could be helpful in that matchup.

---------------------------------------------------

Here is the data for Hollow Bastion. This stage is looking more attractive in a legality-sense as time goes on.


Also:
There was a problem fetching the tweet


Stuff like Corrin and Byleth's forward smash is going to be less safe now if the sourspot is shielded. This bug finally getting fixed changes many interactions with moves like this involved.


To wrap up the Twitter post streak, here we have an inconsequential shadow change to Kazuya:


---------------------------------------------------

One final note to end this long post: we now know when :ultdoc: grounded tornado armor starts. It is from frame 5 -> frame 2.
Sounds very good... until you realize that this is attached only to the grounded version of the move. This would be a really good buff if the aerial version also had armor, but unfortunately that is not the case.
 

Idon

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Aaron1997

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Although... umm... Jigglypuff just got something:


Just to confirm, is this actually true? It really looks like it. If it is... holy moly (sure, it's on DK, but still).
For something not on DK, the buffs to Jab 2 and B-air have resulted in potentially this:
There was a problem fetching the tweet
Which I am excited about. Not sure why they buffed B-air again, but I'll take it.
 
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Thinkaman

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You fools are missing the most important change of all:

The usual recent-but-not-most-recent rounds of promotional spirits were added to the Spirit Board/Shop rotation, rather than all of them.

They do have another update on the schedule.
 

Zapp Branniglenn

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Jigglypuff can short hop B-air, and put out the first active frame of N-air just before landing now. This coupled with the fact that she's facing the opponent for the N-air feels pretty cool for something that takes no skill to perform. The jab change is cute in a Chrom-ish way I guess. Imagine closing that much distance and landing right in front of your opponent just to start flailing those stubby little arms. It just doesn't suit her playstyle. But the new B-air to N-air setup is fairly safe shield pressure, and the first jab following that would beat frame 7+ shield grabs outright. There might be something there.
 
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Thinkaman

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Alright, Patch stuff:

Let's start with :ultjigglypuff:; Holy crap.

All 3 of these changes are super big, super generous. You can do a lot of mean things out of jab2 at low-mid percents, including fair and sometimes bair. Even more reliable on taller characters. Very good near ledge where DI away is not a great option. And it's now -5 on shield! Amazing!

Bair. Okay, look. You can SH bair + nair now, and wall-of-pair bair-> fair much easier too with those extra 2 frames. You can SH bair into a directional air dodge for safety. You can SH bair a shield and Rest their response. But wait, there's still more! Landing bair isn't just safer, it now true combos into jab at very low %s! You know, that jab that now sets up into other stuff at low %s. It's terrifying.

And then d-throw as a combo throw. Don't fixate on gimmicks, I don't care if it's true or not against this or that DI at this or that % on DK. I care that in every matchup, I can d-throw them, jump at them, and they have to react. Yes, they will always DI it optimally, but this move is now favorable enough in frame data to be just a very scary scenario that puff can put you in whenever she can't just pop you offstage.

What a great day for BassMage, the real winner of this patch.

:ultzelda: is probably the 2nd biggest winner? Zelda Jab 1 is just... a great move to land now. True combos into the (stronger!) d-smash at generous percents, threatens ZELDA FAIR (!!!) unless they block or pull out something super low frames, mixup with grab, hell even the rapid jab isrespectable damage now if you feel like opting out of the conditioning games. Dair buff is possibly one of the biggest "QoL" buffs we've seen, to the point of not really being such at all.

Wild that we got a set of Zelda buffs where u-smash buffs are the least important.

:ultlittlemac: changes are also fantastic. U-tilt and up-b were critical moves for Mac, and meaningful buffs to them (and they are meaningful!) is directly applying power to the part of Mac's kit that works. U-tilt being no longer unsafe on hit is A+, but it true comboing into jab, u-tilt, KO Punch, or up-b (!!!) in a wide variety of percentages is a big deal. You still don't want it blocked, but it's a very rewarding move now.

Speaking of blocking, the f-smash buff is a hilarious way to deal with Mac's big shield problem. Now even the slightest amount of shield fatigue means your shield is on embargo.

Mac's Counter going from 1.3x to 1.5x is great, not because Mac likes to Counter but because he has to--it's a move that Mac does frequently use in games, and it's nice that your landing mixup can, uh, actually KO certain things now.

But the real magic is this neutral-b change. No, it's not the armor I wanted so much, but it's the next best thing, arguably better--it comes out around 10 frames sooner (!) and has much less endlag. Armoring is much more practical now, and the extra knockback is just a cherry on top. Buffering is a nice touch. Really curious how much of an impact this will have.

:ultdoc: stuff is quite nice. The best sleeper move in the game just got better, but people will continue to overlook Super Sheet. The nado change is neat but obviously niche. (It would matter more if it applied to the aerial version? Really? You don't say! Thanks Twitter.) I like that dair is more usable as her has some really spooky stuff out of grounded dair, but I dunno how much more accessible this makes it. The nair and uair buffs are modest but meaningful changes to Doc's existing gameplan fundamentals, which is a reliable way to bump him upwards.

:ultisabelle: buffs are okay, not huge. The QoL changes to f-smash and f-throw (lol) are, okay sure. D-tilt I honestly couldn't tell a difference. But buffing d-smash is a big deal that non-mains might overlook the significance off. Isabelle true-combos jab into d-smash at high %s as her most reliable kill option. At least, it would be, if d-smash wasn't a tad weak and sometimes miss entirely. But now both of those are addressed! Very nice.

:ultincineroar: buffs are modest, but in the right place and he was secretly already good soooooo... Up-b, uair, and d-smash are moves I use, sure. I'd like them to do more damage, sounds great.

:ultkrool: stuff is super boring, but I guess in a way that works. "Uh, sure, just have some (even) better grab reward I guess." QoL changes to F-smash and fair are welcome, but don't oversell them.

:ultlucario: I am not going to claim to understand. Does d-tilt being faster mean anything special? How often does he f-tilt KO? I need context, but it doesn't seem very significant.

Not sure if :ultrosalina:'s Luma tweaks count as a buff really, but I certainly like both of them. Aerial side-b was so awkward before.
 

DougEfresh

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:ultlucario: I am not going to claim to understand. Does d-tilt being faster mean anything special? How often does he f-tilt KO? I need context, but it doesn't seem very significant.
A 2f reduction on dtilt's start up is actually quite good because it was already Lucario's best grounded option in neutral (suffered from a f9 start up, but f7 makes it a legitimately decent cqc and especially "get off me" option). It's now more spammable because it's also kept its very low cooldown frames (only ~10f to punish after its 4 active frames), and it's pretty safe on shield in most MUs, especially with proper spacing. This'll be a blessing to have to mitigate pressure in MUs like :ultfox: that love to mash on Lucario, and a faster grounded button to start a combo or tech chase situation at low/mid percents (especially after closing the gap on swordies) will be nice too.

Ftilt is probably his safest "last-ditch" kill move at high percents when you don't want to risk the high commitment of a bair, fsmash, or FPG to close out stocks or games/sets, so while I've yet to fully know the extent its knockback has been increased, it's nice to have a less committal grounded move to kill more consistently at higher percents while keeping its utility as a tool for tech-chases, 2-frames, and safer ledge trapping (the latter is especially important given that's where :ultlucario: thrives).

Dash Attack only had its sweetspot last 1f longer with an almost unnoticeable increase to the sweetspot's hitbox, but maybe that'll come in handy from time to time in scramble situations.

Overall, the changes were quite minimalistic, but I do like the dtilt and ftilt buffs a fair bit because it incentivizes Lucario players to use a more grounded playstyle, which is great since his lack of disjoints, still mediocre buttons, and relative floatiness make him easy to juggle and anti-air when abusing an aerial playstyle with 1000 nairs and b reverse/wavebounce aura sphere movement shenanigans.

Doubtful it'll have any major impact on his competitive viability, but at least his air game and ground game have a less glaring gap between them now.
 
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Hydreigonfan01

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Couple of things:

+Sora's Air to Ground game is nuts. You can convert into high damage combos via fair/nair and more
+Sora does so much damage due to his combo gimmick, it's insane. He'll likely have a top class comeback game
+Sora has kill setups, and they're not that difficult either
+Neutral B is a huge part of his neutral. Firaga controls horizontal space, Thundaga controls both horizontal and vertical and is dangerously effective at KOIng near the ledge. Good edgeguard tool as well
+Side B has excellent burst range and can fake you out. Very punishable though, but Sora can mix up the timing. Helpful recovery tool, but opponents can mess him up by having Sora track them
+Aerial mobility is incredible but he's floaty
+Fsmash has high range, decent speed and is incredibly strong. Smash attacks are still niche, however
+- mixed on Blizzaga. Absurdly short range but is extremely damaging on shields and can freeze. Absolutely the worst of the 3, though
-Counter is borderline a wasted slot. But since he effectively has 3 neutral Bs, it's not too bad.
-Light (duh)
-Kinda slow on the ground (1.58 run speed)
-Floaty
Nah, his counter is busted due to how it works when edgeguarding. Recoveries with invincibility flat out gets beaten offstage if they have a hitbox, including Wonderwing, Dolphin Slash and the first frames of PK Thunder 2.
 

BlazGreen

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It's great that the devs are still trying to fix the low tiers but I think the main issue they'll always face is that they all have fundamental flaws that simply can't be fixed by changing a few moves here and there. Buffing mid tiers has always had a bigger impact on the meta in comparison (just look at :ultbayonetta: and :ultfalco:'s recent results for example) so I can see why some people may be disappointed in the patch. Having said that, the :ultjigglypuff: changes may actually be significant and Bassmage has already been making waves with the character so things are definitely looking up for Puff.

As for the lack of nerfs, I honestly don't mind at all. Sure there's still some dumb stuff but compared with older Smash games the top tiers in Ultimate are relatively tame.
 
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Kokiden

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Shame Bayo didn't get more buffs.

I am disappointed that they haven't decided to at least buff Spehiroth's weight. I think making him as light as he is, is overkill. Even Sora is heavier than him...
 

Hydreigonfan01

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Not related to the patch notes but here's the percentage of character placements pre-Sora but post-SSC
ROB has an almost 6% across all placements at all tournaments. However despite that...
ROB basically isn't anywhere to be seen across of top 8 unless it's specifically Zackray playing him to the point where he's not even hitting top 15 in percentage numbers.
In addition, it's :ultmythra: that is the most dominant character at the very top level and by quite a wide margin and this isn't getting into how this chart was taken before SSC so the 7.38% number is actually going to be higher now then it was one weekend ago (When accounting for roster size that number seems pretty huge tbh).

I really think it's only a matter of time until Sparg0 wins a supermajor with :ultpyra: /:ultmythra: , he's so consistent with them + :ultcloud:.
 
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Garo

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Sakurai kind of alluded to this when discussing about Sora, but you shouldn't necessarily consider a Smash character's weight as their mass but rather a consequence of their characteristics. If we're drawing comparisons, it's more akin to a character's health in a traditional fighting game, and at least in my experience it's pretty rare to see people moaning about a character's low amount of health when compared to their apparent canon strength or endurance. Kinda wish Smashers could see it the same way instead of wondering "Why Ridley so light?" year after year.

As for the buffs, I'm especially interested to see how much :ultjigglypuff:and:ultlittlemac:can get out of theirs.
 

Kokiden

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Sakurai kind of alluded to this when discussing about Sora, but you shouldn't necessarily consider a Smash character's weight as their mass but rather a consequence of their characteristics. If we're drawing comparisons, it's more akin to a character's health in a traditional fighting game, and at least in my experience it's pretty rare to see people moaning about a character's low amount of health when compared to their apparent canon strength or endurance. Kinda wish Smashers could see it the same way instead of wondering "Why Ridley so light?" year after year.

As for the buffs, I'm especially interested to see how much :ultjigglypuff:and:ultlittlemac:can get out of theirs.
If you're trying to refer to my earlier comment, then even so, I still don't think Sephiroth should that that light.

I think it's taking his "balancing" way too far.
 

Hydreigonfan01

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Riddles is looking to be using Roy in majors too now, considering he was using Roy in a weekly, this may be a permanent decision.
Wouldn't be surprised if he still uses Terry/Kazuya as secondaries though, those characters do still fit him well.
 

Rizen

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Not related to the patch notes but here's the percentage of character placements pre-Sora but post-SSC
ROB has an almost 6% across all placements at all tournaments. However despite that...
ROB basically isn't anywhere to be seen across of top 8 unless it's specifically Zackray playing him to the point where he's not even hitting top 15 in percentage numbers.
In addition, it's :ultmythra: that is the most dominant character at the very top level and by quite a wide margin and this isn't getting into how this chart was taken before SSC so the 7.38% number is actually going to be higher now then it was one weekend ago (When accounting for roster size that number seems pretty huge tbh).


I really think it's only a matter of time until Sparg0 wins a supermajor with :ultpyra: /:ultmythra: , he's so consistent with them + :ultcloud:.
This is exactly what I've been saying:
ROB has a strong presence in top 64s but not so much top 8s. He's very popular, one of the best characters for sure I've been saying this for over a year, but doesn't preform as well as Pythra at a top level. No one single character has had more top 8 appearances than Pythra since their release (prove me wrong).
:ultpyra::ultmythra:'s dominating tournaments.

I treat smash like a scientific study; it's like if you were observing animal populations and behaviors. This species :ultpyra::ultmythra: has been growing (shooting up 60 ranks on orion stats and getting new players like Sharp and DM) and appearing multiple times on many top 8s. They've snowballed in popularity just as I hypothesized and it's reasonable to assume the trend will continue. Even though MKLeo has focused on Byleth lately, it has not changed these trends because there are so many players getting results with Pythra. This makes it very unlikely that Pythra is being carried by one player as an outlier. :ultbyleth: on the other hand would have very few results if MKLeo abandoned him so it's more likely he is being carried by Leo's skill than a dominate character or, to put it another way, Byleth as a species does not behave as successfully as their member MKLeo. With scientific procedures based on evidence we can make accurate predictions for future "behaviors" of each character. I did the same thing predicting :ultpalutena: and :ultrob:'s massive successes.
 

SKX31

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Well, um, this was shadowpatched and Meshima noticed it:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Apperently there's been a bug in the scripts since release that causes hitstun and shieldstun multipliers to be applied to all hitboxes of a move instead of just the sweetspot, making a whole bunch of moves safer and easier to confirm off than they were supposed to.

This shadowbuffs and nerfs apparently affect hitstun and shield safety, and a lot of characters were affected by this (important caveat: I have no idea exactly how much each character gained / lost. For all I know this could be minor but still):


  • :ultmythra: sees her Nair buffed by this... but Jab and Lightning Buster are shadownerfed by this. :ultpyra: gains nothing and loses some safety on Jab, F-Tilt and Dash Attack. Yeah, that's overall a nerf I say especially since Pyra relies on F-Tilt to space and Lightning Buster lost some safety.
  • For that matter, a lot of Dash Attacks are negatively affected by this. I wanna say about 29 characters'.
  • A lot of (Rapid) Jabs were also affected, 32 characters' jabs in fact.
  • :ultjoker: might be the most nerfed by this. Dash Attack and all three tilts were nerfed.
  • (Edit: ) :ultkazuya: might also be heavily nerfed, the extent of this is unknown.
  • :ultcorrin: and :ultbyleth: lost safety on their respective Side Bs and Jabs - which are pretty important parts of their kits. Corrin's F Smash is also less safe apparently. (Edit: Not sure on that move.)
  • :ultsteve: gained seemingly a lot of safety: F-Tilt, N-Air, F-Air and B-Air all got buffed by this.
  • :ultsephiroth: might've also gained a lot out of this, but it's really difficult to say since his sweetspots are dependent on slashes or stabs.
  • Seemingly random moves that got buffed by this :ultbanjokazooie: 's Wonderwing, :ultdk: 's Hand Slap, :ultmegaman: 's Pellets, :ultsonic: 's Homing Attack, :ult_terry: 's spotdodge attack, :ulthero: Side B. Etc.

Ultomato compiled the entire list in an excel doc:

And I'm gonna ask to confirm this: this seems pretty important even if it turns out minor since it's all over the place.


Edit; Well, umm, nvm. Hydreigon shared a later Meshima tweet confirming the above didn't happen. Please delete.
 
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Hydreigonfan01

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This is exactly what I've been saying:

:ultpyra::ultmythra:'s dominating tournaments.

I treat smash like a scientific study; it's like if you were observing animal populations and behaviors. This species :ultpyra::ultmythra: has been growing (shooting up 60 ranks on orion stats and getting new players like Sharp and DM) and appearing multiple times on many top 8s. They've snowballed in popularity just as I hypothesized and it's reasonable to assume the trend will continue. Even though MKLeo has focused on Byleth lately, it has not changed these trends because there are so many players getting results with Pythra. This makes it very unlikely that Pythra is being carried by one player as an outlier. :ultbyleth: on the other hand would have very few results if MKLeo abandoned him so it's more likely he is being carried by Leo's skill than a dominate character or, to put it another way, Byleth as a species does not behave as successfully as their member MKLeo. With scientific procedures based on evidence we can make accurate predictions for future "behaviors" of each character. I did the same thing predicting :ultpalutena: and :ultrob:'s massive successes.
One thing to mention is that usually the most common/dominant character is one that's usually pretty simple and I think this elevates Pyra/Mythra results at the peak quite a bit due to them relying heavily on the players sword fundamentals but not much else.

For example, all the best Pyra/Mythra players have had experience with other sword characters before. Aside from Sparg0 being a Cloud main in both 4 and Ultimate, he had a :ultroy: secondary before Pyra/Mythra came out and has a pocket :ultbyleth: rn according to a post of his on Twitter. Cosmos played :4corrinf:, MKLeo is the god of using sword characters in both SSB4 and Ultimate, Shuton had a pocket :ultshulk:, Mr. R is intending on using them as a secondary and he played :ultchrom: before this and had a secondary :4cloud:, BlackTwins played :metaknight:, :4cloud: and had an :ultroy: secondary and finally Komorikiri uses this character in smaller Sumabatos and he played :4cloud: and secondaries :ultsephiroth: in this game too. DM and Sharp seem to be the only exceptions to this and that's because DM is a huge fan of Xenoblade 2 while Sharp is just good with any character.

Pyra/Mythra being super easy has probably been what elevated their results to be the highest at a specific peak, as it means more players use the character. Also they're fun, people aren't finding them boring like :ultlucina:.

Well, um, this was shadowpatched and Meshima noticed it:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Apperently there's been a bug in the scripts since release that causes hitstun and shieldstun multipliers to be applied to all hitboxes of a move instead of just the sweetspot, making a whole bunch of moves safer and easier to confirm off than they were supposed to.

This shadowbuffs and nerfs apparently affect hitstun and shield safety, and a lot of characters were affected by this (important caveat: I have no idea exactly how much each character gained / lost. For all I know this could be minor but still):

  • :ultmythra: sees her Nair buffed by this... but Jab and Lightning Buster are shadownerfed by this. :ultpyra: gains nothing and loses some safety on Jab, F-Tilt and Dash Attack. Yeah, that's overall a nerf I say especially since Pyra relies on F-Tilt to space and Lightning Buster lost some safety.
  • For that matter, a lot of Dash Attacks are negatively affected by this. I wanna say about 29 characters'.
  • A lot of (Rapid) Jabs were also affected, 32 characters' jabs in fact.
  • :ultjoker: might be the most nerfed by this. Dash Attack and all three tilts were nerfed.
  • :ultcorrin: and :ultbyleth: lost safety on their respective Side Bs and Jabs - which are pretty important parts of their kits. Corrin's F Smash is also less safe apparently.
  • :ultsteve: gained seemingly a lot of safety: F-Tilt, N-Air, F-Air and B-Air all got buffed by this.
  • :ultsephiroth: might've also gained a lot out of this, but it's really difficult to say since his sweetspots are dependent on slashes or stabs.
  • Seemingly random moves that got buffed by this :ultbanjokazooie: 's Wonderwing, :ultdk: 's Hand Slap, :ultmegaman: 's Pellets, :ultsonic: 's Homing Attack, :ult_terry: 's spotdodge attack, :ulthero: Side B. Etc.

Ultomato compiled the entire list in an excel doc:

View attachment 334883

And I'm gonna ask to confirm this because this seems pretty important even if it turns out minor since it's all over the place.
Uh, there's a lot to get through here. This one change could have caused the whole meta to gone haywire now. :ultmythra:'s Nair being better might be a pretty big buff to Aegis honestly if you don't have to cross it up now to avoid the shield-grab.
 
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Nobie

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It's interesting that they decided to make Little Mac's up tilt his combo starter rather than restoring down tilt to its Smash 4 (For) Glory. Perhaps the fact that it's a less effective poking tool makes it fairer overall.

Little Mac's newfound ability to demolish shields kind of reminds me of SNES Super Punch-Out!!, where you can heavily stun opponents with the right combination of counters.

 

Hydreigonfan01

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With the bug fix to hitstun modifiers, has :ultpyra:'s Blazing End been buffed?
Because I remember it had a problem with that.
 
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blackghost

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Riddles is looking to be using Roy in majors too now, considering he was using Roy in a weekly, this may be a permanent decision.
Wouldn't be surprised if he still uses Terry/Kazuya as secondaries though, those characters do still fit him well.
i doubt he will secondary kazuya thats just not a character you cans econdary. roy is.
so i think he will have a pocket roy so he has a fast character to close gaps with. Good projectile players wont be and arent scared of kazuya reflect.

sora combo game has similair starters as bayo fair 1 stuff but since side b isnt nearly as good for combos as some peopel were thinking he wont be taking you vertical. horizontal is a strong possiblitiy tho.
 

Hydreigonfan01

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Nvm guys, the shield stun multipliers are still the same.
 

Cap'n Jack

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Disappointing development with the hit stub. :ultbanjokazooie: ‘S Wonderwing needs a little tweaking, I doubt it will get one because Sakurai also balances this game for casuals as well, but that move could stand to be a bit more safe to use, I’d even trade safer for less powerful.
 

Diem

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