Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[meleebrawler]

I didn't measure it myself, but it looks like Sora has some extent of Bayonetta's "the more specials you chain, the longer landing lag you get."

If you didn't catch it, while you can side-b out of up-b, you still go into up-b's special fall at the end all the the same. (With seemingly additional landing lag) This crucially means you can't uair at the end of a full ladder.

Side-b also appeared to have way more cumulative landing/endlag after hitting Bayonetta's shield.

Sakurai's wording (or at least the translation?) made it sound like you don't HAVE to do all 3 parts of side-b. He said "if you tilt a direction" it moves, and holding the button does the lock-on instead. But not once did we see him only doing 1 or 2, unless I missed it.

If you're trying to go for a ladder, Aerial Sweep up B is probably what you actually want to finish with, that's the one with kill power.

 

[Thinkaman]

If you're trying to go for a ladder, Aerial Sweep up B is probably what you actually want to finish with, that's the one with kill power.

But that's the problem, how are you laddering into up-b? Sakurai explicitly said that side-b into up-b doesn't work. (Guessing side-b just has too much endlag, and side-b 3 in particular has too much knockback for direct followups)

Up-b looks like an important kill move for Sora, but not fundamentally different than ZSS/Link/Shulk/etc. (Other than the freedom to side-b out of it, which is a pretty big deal to the risk-reward but doesn't stop say Falco from uairing you to your oblivion while you float there like a chump before the side-b comes out. Very curious how early it kills.)

 

[The_Bookworm]

If you're trying to go for a ladder, Aerial Sweep up B is probably what you actually want to finish with, that's the one with kill power.

But that's the problem, how are you laddering into up-b? Sakurai explicitly said that side-b into up-b doesn't work. (Guessing side-b just has too much endlag, and side-b 3 in particular has too much knockback for direct followups)

Up-b looks like an important kill move for Sora, but not fundamentally different than ZSS/Link/Shulk/etc. (Other than the freedom to side-b out of it, which is a pretty big deal to the risk-reward but doesn't stop say Falco from uairing you to your oblivion while you float there like a chump before the side-b comes out. Very curious how early it kills.)

As mentioned by Envoy, if you look closely, the first Sonic Blade dash whiffs and Wario is able to act out of it. Aerial Sweep -> Sonic Blade is not even true at the slightest.

I think Sora being forced to use Sonic Blade horizontally for the first dash pretty much kills any true combo lattering ability he might've potentially have, since I doubt his up air and Aerial Sweep would send opponents in a friendly angle to do so.
You cannot do Sonic Blade -> Aerial Sweep either, since the Sonic Blade also puts you into freefall. The move also seems like an ineffective KO off-the-top option if the showcase is indicating anything.

You would have better luck just KO'ing off-the-top with Aerial Sweep alone, just simply going for it, which does seem like it can reliably (although this is with no DI).

Further thoughts on the character coming soon, currently back working on HW.

 

[Thinkaman]

You cannot do Sonic Blade -> Aerial Sweep either, since the Sonic Blade also puts you into freefall.

Does it? I am pretty sure the few cases we saw where he ended pure side-b in the air, Sora was in his normal falling animation--not special fall, with the handle held behind his head. I assumed based on this that side-b merely inhereited/delayed the helpless state from up-b, just like Olimar attacking out of his up-b. I could be wrong.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Does it? I am pretty sure the few cases we saw where he ended pure side-b in the air, Sora was in his normal falling animation--not special fall, with the handle held behind his head. I assumed based on this that side-b merely inhereited/delayed the helpless state from up-b, just like Olimar attacking out of his up-b. I could be wrong.

SmashWiki says it puts him in freefall, so I kinda just went with that. \(ツ)/
We will have to wait and see in that case. I am pretty sure you it is mentioned/shown at one point that you are unable to side B -> up B, or at the very least that wasn't shown off at all.



Also, I just realized, Sora is going to be released at patch 13.0.0. Those who have knowledge on the series would know how hilariously coincidental that is.
Maybe this is part of an elaborate set-up by evil mastermind Nomura himself.

Wait! I just realized how far the rabbit hole goes.
Sora is going to be released 13 days from the presentation, is coming with 13 spirits (8 on spirit board + 5 fighter spirits), and if Pyra & Mythra are counted as separate fighters, he would be the overall 13th DLC character and the 7th DLC character from FP2.
NOMURAAAAAAAA

The stock icons are also in shambles right now. lol

 

[Nobie]

Sora looks kind of slow on the ground, which I think is going to be a reasonable weakness to offset all his aerial shenanigans. He might actually take away Meta Knight's title of best offstage presence, though it of course remains to be seen. The matchup vs Pyra/Mythra might get interesting

His general movement also seems conducive to Mewtwo, Ness, and Lucas mains.

One thing I'm looking forward to is seeing how players work with the Magic cycling. It's not like Peach where the F-smashes vary in minor ways. Everyone knows what's coming next, but can you scare people into being overly conscious of what spell is next?

 

[Kokiden]

Can't wait to watch how his stage get banned by stage conservatives, since they always win.

That would be a shame.

It's a really nice stage, and having Hollow Bastion or Destati playing during a GF match would be excellent.

idk, I get the feeling that if anything will kill the legality of the stage, it'll be how the main fighting space is moving all around Hollow Bastion. People are probably gonna go "it's distracting!" but then inevitably someone will be like "it gives me motion sickness", and that'll be where it really dies.

I think that's what prevented a past stage from becoming tourney legal....if I'm remembering things right....which I might not be

I think that was the case for Sephiroth's stage.

A crying shame tbh.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Sora looks kind of slow on the ground, which I think is going to be a reasonable weakness to offset all his aerial shenanigans. He might actually take away Meta Knight's title of best offstage presence, though it of course remains to be seen. The matchup vs Pyra/Mythra might get interesting

His general movement also seems conducive to Mewtwo, Ness, and Lucas mains.

One thing I'm looking forward to is seeing how players work with the Magic cycling. It's not like Peach where the F-smashes vary in minor ways. Everyone knows what's coming next, but can you scare people into being overly conscious of what spell is next?

Will probably have cycle to desired spells when the opponent is off stage or far away if he wants a safe time to do it. Firaga is great just off observation alone and I feel he will really just want Firaga in most situations. I don’t know how good Thundaga will be, I saw mention that you may be able to roll inbetween the thunder bolts which would frankly suck. And Blizzaga looks kinda gimmicky in my way to early opinion. If I see Sora has Blizzaga on deck next I’m not worried about approaching him since Firaga isn’t coming to deny space and I can get in on him easier. Hopefully Blizzaga has good reach because I can see Sora now being stuck on Blizzaga with an opponent closing in and really wanting a moment to get to Firaga but can’t because using Blizzaga will leave him wide open.

 

[Thinkaman]

Firaga and Thundaga look terrific at what they do but apply to different situations. Again, I think these two moves would be broken if you had free, repeatable access to them.

Blizzaga looks extremely similar to ICs Blizzard in all dimensions, which is a very solid move. (If nothing more)

 

[NotLiquid]

My utterly shallow analysis of Sora right now is that, throughout the lifetime of this game’s numerous balance changes, Sakurai and co. have shown to be pretty cognizant of what makes Smash balancing tick, and with the amount of legwork involved in just getting Sora into the game as well as the knowledge that he was the most requested character throughout Smash history, there’s no way they won’t try their best to make him a good character at minimum, and being a simple archetype probably allows them to attain that goal without too much complication.

Of course, developer intent is always a fickle beast but I’m pretty optimistic that he has to offset his weight problem and questionable (in the dev build) out-of-shield options. For a change I wanted to consider a more holistic take in light of us finally being at the end of the DLC, even if we’ll still see a skeleton crew sunsetting it with a few more patches.

 

[Kokiden]

Seems like Zackray has shown interest in wanting to main Sora.

Would be nice to see how he would do on the competitive scene.

 

[The_Bookworm]

My overall thoughts on his gameplay. I can gush about what he brings as a whole and how happy I am, but that is a story for later.

Sora seems... kinda average to above-average right now viability-wise? He does seem have defined strengths and weaknesses, but nothing about him seems particularly crazy.

His combo capabilities seems fairly potent, especially when it comes to using up air -> Aerial Sweep, and anything that comes from down tilt or down throw. In general, this seems to have pretty good damage racking capabilities somewhat similar to Bayonetta.
His KO power seems to be surprisingly good, with a collection of solid finishers.

• Down smash seems to send at a generous angle, while it's extra jump a nice addition as well, although the jump seems to be toned down in comparison to Incineroar, K. Rool, and Ridley's down smashes.
• Up smash seems to lack a scoop hitbox, similar to Hero's. However, in comparison to Hero's, Sora's up smash has a very generous hitbox with a sweetspot (that doesn't seem to differ too much from sourspot interestingly).
• Aerial Sweep seems like a nice KO option. It seems to send more vertically than the Link's, but that is shown with no DI, so more testing is required for this.
• Back throw is a KO throw. Might be identical to Mario's, but we will see.
• He also has a plethora of edgeguarding options, further aiding this.

He also has some form of keepaway in the form of spells. FYI: I also like how SSF2 Sora also have this, even having this order of spells at one point.

• Firaga seems solid when only shot once, since it seems that he can combo into dash attack or apply pressure. Shooting a single fireball seems to be fairly safe to do at most ranges. However, shooting multiple Firagas doesn't seem to be all that good, since there is a glaring gap between the shots where you can pull up your shield on-hit. From there, you can easily shield jump out of it. Might be good vs Kazuya since he leaves the ground later than everyone else, but outside of that, I think only shooting one is the best course of action. Also, the distance of the fireballs is honestly not super great? It seems to be about the range of Zapple, but you will not be counter-zoning with this move in the slightest.
• Thundaga is easily the best one. Covers very good area, especially against aerial opponents, and couples as an edgeguarding option. Likely his most important spell. Note that the grounded version has a large blindspot on front of Sora, and while the aerial version fixes that blindspot, it comes at the cost of its range. Note that in the Sora vs FF fight, it is shown that if Sora gets hit in the middle of Thundaga, no more lightning bolts will spawn after the fact.
• Blizzaga is kinda weak imo. Seems like a worse version of ICs Blizzard (and even that move is a shell of its Brawl version), due to its very low duration. Freeze is kinda situational as well, only really being useful at high percents, but borderline useless at low percents. The SSF2 version of this move is similar but significantly better.

He, above all else, excels offstage.

• Amazing recovery coming from his Mewtwo/Ness/Lucas like jump, solid distance and protection from Aerial Sweep, and can be follow-up with Sonic Blade.
• Bayonetta-esque forward air, alongside other tools like Thundaga and down air, makes his edgeguard fairly potent as well.

His buttons are have both a strong point and a weak point. The strong point is the active frames, as it is addressed as pretty good in the showcase.

• This helps particularly in the ledge trapping department, and stuffing out buttons that are pressed after yours.

However, as shown in ESAM's post on his frame data, his frame data on startup is very lackluster, nearing Ganondorf/Kazuya levels of poor startup.

• According to ESAM, Aerial Sweep is frame 10. Not the worst OoS in the world, but he will struggle in terms of OoS against characters with mashable buttons on block.
• In general, his buttons will be stuffed out by characters with faster startup frames. His disjoint size seems to about on par with Mythra, so only about average. Due to this and his general floaty nature, approaching as Sora may be fairly troublesome. He thankfully does have his spells to help out with that, but he will eventually have to approach.

His other main flaw is being a floaty lightweight.

• This does provide benefits, as seen with Ness, in the fact that he has high aerial presence, so stuffing him out may be tricky for certain characters. This, imo, may give him an edge against characters like Pikachu or Olimar.
• Unfortunately, floaty and light are not desirable traits to have overall in a Smash game, especially in a game like Ultimate where you have the laggy directional airdodges so characters can juggle you forever. DAirdodge frame data is more tied to the fall speed of a character, so I don't know how laggy Sora's airdodge is, but I can imagine it being not great. Of course, being light is not good since you get KO'd earlier, and he doesn't seem to have anything particularly crazy to compensate. That is part on why they made Sephiroth so light.
• Ness-esque double jump means that he cannot apply juggle pressure as well as other swordies. Up air doesn't seem to have the range as say Marthcina's or Corrin's.

His disadvantage seems to be VERY lopsided.

• With the reasons said above, his offstage disadvantage seems great. He can hang around offstage for so long, has one of the higher double jumps in the game, an up special with solid distance and protection that can be followed up with his side special. Note that he can only do this at the peak of his up special, otherwise he is put into freefall.
• Conversely his disadvantage when put in a juggle scenario seems pretty bad. With his floaty nature and stall-then-fall down air, he seems pretty susceptible to juggles. If his side special could change direction instantly with the first dash, then this would be a different story, but that is not the case: he is forced to do the first dash horizontally, and the more dashes he does, the laggier it becomes. If you try to do so, then the opponent can simply fastfall on reaction to the first dash, and punish his landing.

Sonic Blade is such a wild move. It is shown to be similar to Pikachu's QA and Greninja's HP, but honestly the most opt comparison is to Bayonetta's ABK.

• The homing function is fairly unique. From the second dash onwards, he is able to home into the opponent, making the move connect consistently. Be aware that this can lead to accidental SDs, but a player aware of this would abort.
• It is able to cross-up shields! This can make it tricky to pin down, especially online. He also doesn't lose the ability to use another dash after it hits an opponent's shield, making it especially tricky to pin down. Sonic Blade gains on what ABK lost in the transition from SSB4 to Ultimate.
• The above point is compensated by the move being a lot slower than Bayo's ABK, while also retaining the additional landing lag per special move use. The move also has less immediate distance than ABK, overall making the move a less effective burst/mobility option than ABK.
• The third dash seems to have solid knockback, although the extent of this is unknown. However, it seems to be purely horizontal knockback, which means that you virtually need to be right below or inside the vertical blastzone in order for this move to KO. The dev team definitely made many precautions to make sure SSB4's latter nonsense doesn't happen again.
• Honestly, the fact that the first dash is forced to be from left to right limits the move more than it seems at first. It could be a huge utility move in a similar vein to QA, while also possessing true lattering capabilities, but that is not the case.

From my observations, Sora seems fairly comparable to in terms of strengths and weaknesses. They are both combo focused characters that excel offstage.
In comparison to Bayo, Sora's combo capabilities doesn't seem to be nearly as potent and Sonic Blade seems to pale in comparison to After Burner Kick in terms of a fast burst option, but Sora in return has stronger overall KO power and stronger keepaway thanks to his spells (mostly Thundaga). That is a very rudimentary and somewhat vague comparison, as of course there are many other differences between the two, but the two do have quite a lot in common.

If I am going to have my pre-release, very easily susceptible to change, opinion on him viability-wise, maybe average to above-average?
That is funnily enough how SSF2 Sora is commonly viewed viability-wise, and in that game he has TRUE latter combo-to-death capabilities.

We never had a floaty sword character before, so Sora is a going to be a unique experience in that front. We will see how he cooks up in competitive play.
It is nice to a simple, straightforward character after Kazuya, who is a viability-talk nightmare of the most absurd strengths and crippling weaknesses all at once.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now the gushing begins.

First off: GOD TIER ALT COSTUMES. The fact that the four iterations of Sora have their own separate renders that mimic the original artwork is the cherry-on-top.

Second off: GREAT STAGE. Sure it doesn't have the casual fun of KoF Stadium (a god tier stage), but its competitive layout (seems to be bigger sides but smaller platform in comparison to Smashville) and amazing background visuals are a sight to behold, especially when we get to the Dive to the Heart part.

By the way, I am glad I managed to stop myself from getting spoiled from the reveal (I had an exam when the presentation happened), and I popped off hard when it happened. I never played a KH game aside from Days (mostly due to lacking any PlayStation consoles), but I have been following the series for many years (including binge watching KH2 GoA randomizers).

 

[SKX31]

My overall thoughts on his gameplay. I can gush about what he brings as a whole and how happy I am, but that is a story for later.

Sora seems... kinda average to above-average right now viability-wise? He does seem have defined strengths and weaknesses, but nothing about him seems particularly crazy.

His combo capabilities seems fairly potent, especially when it comes to using up air -> Aerial Sweep, and anything that comes from down tilt or down throw. In general, this seems to have pretty good damage racking capabilities somewhat similar to Bayonetta.
His KO power seems to be surprisingly good, with a collection of solid finishers.

• Down smash seems to send at a generous angle, while it's extra jump a nice addition as well, although the jump seems to be toned down in comparison to Incineroar, K. Rool, and Ridley's down smashes.
• Up smash seems to lack a scoop hitbox, similar to Hero's. However, in comparison to Hero's, Sora's up smash has a very generous hitbox with a sweetspot (that doesn't seem to differ too much from sourspot interestingly).
• Aerial Sweep seems like a nice KO option. It seems to send more vertically than the Link's, but that is shown with no DI, so more testing is required for this.
• Back throw is a KO throw. Might be identical to Mario's, but we will see.
• He also has a plethora of edgeguarding options, further aiding this.

He also has some form of keepaway in the form of spells. FYI: I also like how SSF2 Sora also have this, even having this order of spells at one point.

• Firaga seems solid when only shot once, since it seems that he can combo into dash attack or apply pressure. Shooting a single fireball seems to be fairly safe to do at most ranges. However, shooting multiple Firagas doesn't seem to be all that good, since there is a glaring gap between the shots where you can pull up your shield on-hit. From there, you can easily shield jump out of it. Might be good vs Kazuya since he leaves the ground later than everyone else, but outside of that, I think only shooting one is the best course of action. Also, the distance of the fireballs is honestly not super great? It seems to be about the range of Zapple, but you will not be counter-zoning with this move in the slightest.
• Thundaga is easily the best one. Covers very good area, especially against aerial opponents, and couples as an edgeguarding option. Likely his most important spell. Note that the grounded version has a large blindspot on front of Sora, and while the aerial version fixes that blindspot, it comes at the cost of its range. Note that in the Sora vs FF fight, it is shown that if Sora gets hit in the middle of Thundaga, no more lightning bolts will spawn after the fact.
• Blizzaga is kinda weak imo. Seems like a worse version of ICs Blizzard (and even that move is a shell of its Brawl version), due to its very low duration. Freeze is kinda situational as well, only really being useful at high percents, but borderline useless at low percents. The SSF2 version of this move is similar but significantly better.

He, above all else, excels offstage.

• Amazing recovery coming from his Mewtwo/Ness/Lucas like jump, solid distance and protection from Aerial Sweep, and can be follow-up with Sonic Blade.
• Bayonetta-esque forward air, alongside other tools like Thundaga and down air, makes his edgeguard fairly potent as well.

His buttons are have both a strong point and a weak point. The strong point is the active frames, as it is addressed as pretty good in the showcase.

• This helps particularly in the ledge trapping department, and stuffing out buttons that are pressed after yours.

However, as shown in ESAM's post on his frame data, his frame data on startup is very lackluster, nearing Ganondorf/Kazuya levels of poor startup.

• According to ESAM, Aerial Sweep is frame 10. Not the worst OoS in the world, but he will struggle in terms of OoS against characters with mashable buttons on block.
• In general, his buttons will be stuffed out by characters with faster startup frames. His disjoint size seems to about on par with Mythra, so only about average. Due to this and his general floaty nature, approaching as Sora may be fairly troublesome. He thankfully does have his spells to help out with that, but he will eventually have to approach.

His other main flaw is being a floaty lightweight.

• This does provide benefits, as seen with Ness, in the fact that he has high aerial presence, so stuffing him out may be tricky for certain characters. This, imo, may give him an edge against characters like Pikachu or Olimar.
• Unfortunately, floaty and light are not desirable traits to have overall in a Smash game, especially in a game like Ultimate where you have the laggy directional airdodges so characters can juggle you forever. DAirdodge frame data is more tied to the fall speed of a character, so I don't know how laggy Sora's airdodge is, but I can imagine it being not great. Of course, being light is not good since you get KO'd earlier, and he doesn't seem to have anything particularly crazy to compensate. That is part on why they made Sephiroth so light.
• Ness-esque double jump means that he cannot apply juggle pressure as well as other swordies. Up air doesn't seem to have the range as say Marthcina's or Corrin's.

His disadvantage seems to be VERY lopsided.

• With the reasons said above, his offstage disadvantage seems great. He can hang around offstage for so long, has one of the higher double jumps in the game, an up special with solid distance and protection that can be followed up with his side special. Note that he can only do this at the peak of his up special, otherwise he is put into freefall.
• Conversely his disadvantage when put in a juggle scenario seems pretty bad. With his floaty nature and stall-then-fall down air, he seems pretty susceptible to juggles. If his side special could change direction instantly with the first dash, then this would be a different story, but that is not the case: he is forced to do the first dash horizontally, and the more dashes he does, the laggier it becomes. If you try to do so, then the opponent can simply fastfall on reaction to the first dash, and punish his landing.

Sonic Blade is such a wild move. It is shown to be similar to Pikachu's QA and Greninja's HP, but honestly the most opt comparison is to Bayonetta's ABK.

• The homing function is fairly unique. From the second dash onwards, he is able to home into the opponent, making the move connect consistently. Be aware that this can lead to accidental SDs, but a player aware of this would abort.
• It is able to cross-up shields! This can make it tricky to pin down, especially online. He also doesn't lose the ability to use another dash after it hits an opponent's shield, making it especially tricky to pin down. Sonic Blade gains on what ABK lost in the transition from SSB4 to Ultimate.
• The above point is compensated by the move being a lot slower than Bayo's ABK, while also retaining the additional landing lag per special move use. The move also has less immediate distance than ABK, overall making the move a less effective burst/mobility option than ABK.
• The third dash seems to have solid knockback, although the extent of this is unknown. However, it seems to be purely horizontal knockback, which means that you virtually need to be right below or inside the vertical blastzone in order for this move to KO. The dev team definitely made many precautions to make sure SSB4's latter nonsense doesn't happen again.
• Honestly, the fact that the first dash is forced to be from left to right limits the move more than it seems at first. It could be a huge utility move in a similar vein to QA, while also possessing true lattering capabilities, but that is not the case.

From my observations, Sora seems fairly comparable to in terms of strengths and weaknesses. They are both combo focused characters that excel offstage.
In comparison to Bayo, Sora's combo capabilities doesn't seem to be nearly as potent and Sonic Blade seems to pale in comparison to After Burner Kick in terms of a fast burst option, but Sora in return has stronger overall KO power and stronger keepaway thanks to his spells (mostly Thundaga). That is a very rudimentary and somewhat vague comparison, as of course there are many other differences between the two, but the two do have quite a lot in common.

If I am going to have my pre-release, very easily susceptible to change, opinion on him viability-wise, maybe average to above-average?
That is funnily enough how SSF2 Sora is commonly viewed viability-wise, and in that game he has TRUE latter combo-to-death capabilities.

We never had a floaty sword character before, so Sora is a going to be a unique experience in that front. We will see how he cooks up in competitive play.
It is nice to a simple, straightforward character after Kazuya, who is a viability-talk nightmare of the most absurd strengths and crippling weaknesses all at once.

Excellent analysis! If I may add:

• His aerials seem to have quite a lot of coverage / reach - I dunno if it will help compensate for the seemingly slow start up he has overall, but that + being able to hit-confirm into follow ups off of N-Air, F-Air (and U-Air in juggle scenarios) might be really valuable for him vs. a lot of characters that outrange him ( comes to mind, might prove really bloody difficult for him though). That does imply careful spacing being key (heh), but that's not going to be guaranteed in Ultimate either. So all in all, I'm feeling that those who outrange Sora might give him a lot of trouble. Especially since it doesn't look like he has many non-commital ways of getting in close range.
• Still though, I'll be really interested to see how he handles diagonals - the very thing cares about a ton. He might actually have some answers there, and it might help him land (N-Air / F-Air, tomahawks situationally).
• His attacks seem to have a lot of active frames, which might help in landing certain confirms or generally stuffing out approaches. We'll have to see if D-Tilt has a generous number of active frames or not (chances are not, but still) - if so he might be able to space with that to some degree. His two framing looks pretty good too with those active frames on stuff like Dash Attack (which wasn't shown individually, it's a lot like 's).
• I'm not sure how good his throws are? That's going to be an enigma until they've been labbed out - B-Throw looks the most promising, although F-Throw might have some edgeguard utility and U-Throw seems to have some utility as a juggle setup.

As said, I could wind up being wrong here since this is pre-release footage and limited at that, but still.

 

[Nekoo]

I know It's the character competitive thread, but I feel like this might be good to repost it since the amount of visit in this thread is higher than the stage one, but.
For anyone who's scared that Sora's stage's music might get DMCA which would make it unplayable for tournament needing that Green.

OG world music never get DMCA, which is probably why we got this selection of music by the way.

Only the openings, PoC and Atlantica stuff is DMCA worthy, which make his stage Entierly playable without any issue.

@someone who's deep in the KH community, Speedruning community and more.


Sorry for the small off-character centric topic, but I think it is important.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I just realized Sora doesn't look like he has a spike, though his auto combos, Sonic Blade and Thundaga tell me he won't have too bad of a time edgeguarding, especially Thundaga as it seems fairly low effort for the range it has if you stand at the ledge

 

[Nekoo]

I just realized Sora doesn't look like he has a spike, though his auto combos, Sonic Blade and Thundaga tell me he won't have too bad of a time edgeguarding, especially Thundaga as it seems fairly low effort for the range it has if you stand at the ledge

Doesn't seems he has a Spike, but he has that white spark indicating one during his dair, at the beginning of it.
So who know?

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Doesn't seems he has a Spike, but he has that white spark indicating one during his dair, at the beginning of it.
So who know?

I didn't catch that so I double checked and it's more subtle so maybe he does have one, I'm surprised as Sakurai usually mentions if he has one. Also, his back air is said to be pretty strong too, comparable to weaker smash attacks, so Sora probably will pack a punch on the average hit/autocombo

 

[RonNewcomb]

My overall thoughts on his gameplay. I can gush about what he brings as a whole and how happy I am, but that is a story for later.

Sora seems... kinda average to above-average right now viability-wise? He does seem have defined strengths and weaknesses, but nothing about him seems particularly crazy.

His combo capabilities seems fairly potent, especially when it comes to using up air -> Aerial Sweep, and anything that comes from down tilt or down throw. In general, this seems to have pretty good damage racking capabilities somewhat similar to Bayonetta.
His KO power seems to be surprisingly good, with a collection of solid finishers.

• Down smash seems to send at a generous angle, while it's extra jump a nice addition as well, although the jump seems to be toned down in comparison to Incineroar, K. Rool, and Ridley's down smashes.
• Up smash seems to lack a scoop hitbox, similar to Hero's. However, in comparison to Hero's, Sora's up smash has a very generous hitbox with a sweetspot (that doesn't seem to differ too much from sourspot interestingly).
• Aerial Sweep seems like a nice KO option. It seems to send more vertically than the Link's, but that is shown with no DI, so more testing is required for this.
• Back throw is a KO throw. Might be identical to Mario's, but we will see.
• He also has a plethora of edgeguarding options, further aiding this.

He also has some form of keepaway in the form of spells. FYI: I also like how SSF2 Sora also have this, even having this order of spells at one point.

• Firaga seems solid when only shot once, since it seems that he can combo into dash attack or apply pressure. Shooting a single fireball seems to be fairly safe to do at most ranges. However, shooting multiple Firagas doesn't seem to be all that good, since there is a glaring gap between the shots where you can pull up your shield on-hit. From there, you can easily shield jump out of it. Might be good vs Kazuya since he leaves the ground later than everyone else, but outside of that, I think only shooting one is the best course of action. Also, the distance of the fireballs is honestly not super great? It seems to be about the range of Zapple, but you will not be counter-zoning with this move in the slightest.
• Thundaga is easily the best one. Covers very good area, especially against aerial opponents, and couples as an edgeguarding option. Likely his most important spell. Note that the grounded version has a large blindspot on front of Sora, and while the aerial version fixes that blindspot, it comes at the cost of its range. Note that in the Sora vs FF fight, it is shown that if Sora gets hit in the middle of Thundaga, no more lightning bolts will spawn after the fact.
• Blizzaga is kinda weak imo. Seems like a worse version of ICs Blizzard (and even that move is a shell of its Brawl version), due to its very low duration. Freeze is kinda situational as well, only really being useful at high percents, but borderline useless at low percents. The SSF2 version of this move is similar but significantly better.

He, above all else, excels offstage.

• Amazing recovery coming from his Mewtwo/Ness/Lucas like jump, solid distance and protection from Aerial Sweep, and can be follow-up with Sonic Blade.
• Bayonetta-esque forward air, alongside other tools like Thundaga and down air, makes his edgeguard fairly potent as well.

His buttons are have both a strong point and a weak point. The strong point is the active frames, as it is addressed as pretty good in the showcase.

• This helps particularly in the ledge trapping department, and stuffing out buttons that are pressed after yours.

However, as shown in ESAM's post on his frame data, his frame data on startup is very lackluster, nearing Ganondorf/Kazuya levels of poor startup.

• According to ESAM, Aerial Sweep is frame 10. Not the worst OoS in the world, but he will struggle in terms of OoS against characters with mashable buttons on block.
• In general, his buttons will be stuffed out by characters with faster startup frames. His disjoint size seems to about on par with Mythra, so only about average. Due to this and his general floaty nature, approaching as Sora may be fairly troublesome. He thankfully does have his spells to help out with that, but he will eventually have to approach.

His other main flaw is being a floaty lightweight.

• This does provide benefits, as seen with Ness, in the fact that he has high aerial presence, so stuffing him out may be tricky for certain characters. This, imo, may give him an edge against characters like Pikachu or Olimar.
• Unfortunately, floaty and light are not desirable traits to have overall in a Smash game, especially in a game like Ultimate where you have the laggy directional airdodges so characters can juggle you forever. DAirdodge frame data is more tied to the fall speed of a character, so I don't know how laggy Sora's airdodge is, but I can imagine it being not great. Of course, being light is not good since you get KO'd earlier, and he doesn't seem to have anything particularly crazy to compensate. That is part on why they made Sephiroth so light.
• Ness-esque double jump means that he cannot apply juggle pressure as well as other swordies. Up air doesn't seem to have the range as say Marthcina's or Corrin's.

His disadvantage seems to be VERY lopsided.

• With the reasons said above, his offstage disadvantage seems great. He can hang around offstage for so long, has one of the higher double jumps in the game, an up special with solid distance and protection that can be followed up with his side special. Note that he can only do this at the peak of his up special, otherwise he is put into freefall.
• Conversely his disadvantage when put in a juggle scenario seems pretty bad. With his floaty nature and stall-then-fall down air, he seems pretty susceptible to juggles. If his side special could change direction instantly with the first dash, then this would be a different story, but that is not the case: he is forced to do the first dash horizontally, and the more dashes he does, the laggier it becomes. If you try to do so, then the opponent can simply fastfall on reaction to the first dash, and punish his landing.

Sonic Blade is such a wild move. It is shown to be similar to Pikachu's QA and Greninja's HP, but honestly the most opt comparison is to Bayonetta's ABK.

• The homing function is fairly unique. From the second dash onwards, he is able to home into the opponent, making the move connect consistently. Be aware that this can lead to accidental SDs, but a player aware of this would abort.
• It is able to cross-up shields! This can make it tricky to pin down, especially online. He also doesn't lose the ability to use another dash after it hits an opponent's shield, making it especially tricky to pin down. Sonic Blade gains on what ABK lost in the transition from SSB4 to Ultimate.
• The above point is compensated by the move being a lot slower than Bayo's ABK, while also retaining the additional landing lag per special move use. The move also has less immediate distance than ABK, overall making the move a less effective burst/mobility option than ABK.
• The third dash seems to have solid knockback, although the extent of this is unknown. However, it seems to be purely horizontal knockback, which means that you virtually need to be right below or inside the vertical blastzone in order for this move to KO. The dev team definitely made many precautions to make sure SSB4's latter nonsense doesn't happen again.
• Honestly, the fact that the first dash is forced to be from left to right limits the move more than it seems at first. It could be a huge utility move in a similar vein to QA, while also possessing true lattering capabilities, but that is not the case.

From my observations, Sora seems fairly comparable to in terms of strengths and weaknesses. They are both combo focused characters that excel offstage.
In comparison to Bayo, Sora's combo capabilities doesn't seem to be nearly as potent and Sonic Blade seems to pale in comparison to After Burner Kick in terms of a fast burst option, but Sora in return has stronger overall KO power and stronger keepaway thanks to his spells (mostly Thundaga). That is a very rudimentary and somewhat vague comparison, as of course there are many other differences between the two, but the two do have quite a lot in common.

If I am going to have my pre-release, very easily susceptible to change, opinion on him viability-wise, maybe average to above-average?
That is funnily enough how SSF2 Sora is commonly viewed viability-wise, and in that game he has TRUE latter combo-to-death capabilities.

We never had a floaty sword character before, so Sora is a going to be a unique experience in that front. We will see how he cooks up in competitive play.
It is nice to a simple, straightforward character after Kazuya, who is a viability-talk nightmare of the most absurd strengths and crippling weaknesses all at once.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now the gushing begins.

First off: GOD TIER ALT COSTUMES. The fact that the four iterations of Sora have their own separate renders that mimic the original artwork is the cherry-on-top.

Second off: GREAT STAGE. Sure it doesn't have the casual fun of KoF Stadium (a god tier stage), but its competitive layout (seems to be bigger sides but smaller platform in comparison to Smashville) and amazing background visuals are a sight to behold, especially when we get to the Dive to the Heart part.

By the way, I am glad I managed to stop myself from getting spoiled from the reveal (I had an exam when the presentation happened), and I popped off hard when it happened. I never played a KH game aside from Days (mostly due to lacking any PlayStation consoles), but I have been following the series for many years (including binge watching KH2 GoA randomizers).

Good post.

For a character who spends a lot of time airborne he doesn't seem to have much to strike beneath him. Stall n fall dairs tend to have heavy landing lag, and his side-b does too. Thunder doesn't seem to reach downward either. So Sora will be going to the ledge a lot.

But how does he get off the ledge? Ledge drop dj uair might be awkward with the enormous dj distance. Side-b isn't as fast as ABK so it might be punishable on block. Can he fair-2 cancel through the ledgeguarder then bair?

I really want to know how safe on shield his stuff is. If it's poor "because he's an air fighter" that'll kill his viability.

 

[Thinkaman]

I really want to know how safe on shield his stuff is. If it's poor "because he's an air fighter" that'll kill his viability.

That's what I thought, but it also looked like his throws might be better than I would expect a floaty or sword character to have. We'll see I guess.

 

[meleebrawler]

Good post.

For a character who spends a lot of time airborne he doesn't seem to have much to strike beneath him. Stall n fall dairs tend to have heavy landing lag, and his side-b does too. Thunder doesn't seem to reach downward either. So Sora will be going to the ledge a lot.

But how does he get off the ledge? Ledge drop dj uair might be awkward with the enormous dj distance. Side-b isn't as fast as ABK so it might be punishable on block. Can he fair-2 cancel through the ledgeguarder then bair?

I really want to know how safe on shield his stuff is. If it's poor "because he's an air fighter" that'll kill his viability.

I dunno, with his large-distanced jumps it doesn't seem too difficult for him to get into a position where the landing lag of his down air is a non-factor. It's not long before you can cancel out of it with anything.

Couldn't Sora cast spells from the ledge and avoid rising more than he wants to? Both Thundaga and Blizzaga could put work there, and I feel we're overlooking the utility of B(lizzaga)-reversing the latter.

Even if numbers claim his moves aren't safe on shield, he makes up for it with deceptive animations and mindgames. The single and three-hit variations of moves like jab and ftilt have differing properties, but nigh-identical animations. How will you know if you should be holding shield longer for the three-hits, or letting go quickly to punish the single hits?

Still, as I alluded to in a previous post, Sora doesn't usually like going air-to-ground against tough opponents in his home series either, and it's actually safer for him to, counter-intuitively, stay grounded until an opportunity presents itself.

 

[Kokiden]

Only thing I'm wondering now is can we shield on his 2nd or 3rd sonic blade attack? Or if we can air dodge it?

Doesn't seem like it, but it'd really weaken him a lot if we can.

 

[Idon]

Only thing I'm wondering now is can we shield on his 2nd or 3rd sonic blade attack? Or if we can air dodge it?

Doesn't seem like it, but it'd really weaken him a lot if we can.

A combo attack that is escapable on hit sounds terrible so presumably not.

 

[RonNewcomb]

Couldn't Sora cast spells from the ledge and avoid rising more than he wants to?

Idk, do spells cut short his upward momentum? If so I agree Blizzaga might be the best choice. But man, that dj really sends him to the moon. I literally Laughed Out Loud when I saw it.

How will you know if you should be holding shield longer for the three-hits, or letting go quickly to punish the single hits?

Sakurai showed us this strike/throw mixup vs Jiggs, but, spotdodge beats both. Again, with enough shieldstun it's less of an issue...

But since we know f-tilt has different knockback depending on if you autocombo or not, then... Man I really want to test stuff.

Sora doesn't usually like going air-to-ground against tough opponents in his home series either, and it's actually safer for him to, counter-intuitively, stay grounded

This is interesting, thx.

I dunno if he'll be able to stay grounded, or get back to grounded. He does have good throws as Thinkaman pointed out. I just wonder if he'll have chances to use them.

can we shield on his 2nd or 3rd sonic blade attack? Or if we can air dodge it?

Yes. Wario came out of hitstun while in air. A lot of what Sakurai showed us was untrue. At least at whatever those percents were set at.

Without a central gimmick so much of this character will come down to his numbers. 6f jab for a swordie is average. 5f jab is best in class (Marth, Pit) unless we use ****** characters (MK, Tink). Is Sora a ******?

Sakurai specifically called out not to spam aerial autocombo if you're trying to sword-zoning. Use single hits for that. Otherwise Sora is a brawler-with-disjoint not a swordie.

 

[meleebrawler]

Idk, do spells cut short his upward momentum? If so I agree Blizzaga might be the best choice. But man, that dj really sends him to the moon. I literally Laughed Out Loud when I saw it.



Sakurai showed us this strike/throw mixup vs Jiggs, but, spotdodge beats both. Again, with enough shieldstun it's less of an issue...

But since we know f-tilt has different knockback depending on if you autocombo or not, then... Man I really want to test stuff.



This is interesting, thx.

I dunno if he'll be able to stay grounded, or get back to grounded. He does have good throws as Thinkaman pointed out. I just wonder if he'll have chances to use them.



Yes. Wario came out of hitstun while in air. A lot of what Sakurai showed us was untrue. At least at whatever those percents were set at.

Without a central gimmick so much of this character will come down to his numbers. 6f jab for a swordie is average. 5f jab is best in class (Marth, Pit) unless we use ****** characters (MK, Tink). Is Sora a ******?

Sakurai specifically called out not to spam aerial autocombo if you're trying to sword-zoning. Use single hits for that. Otherwise Sora is a brawler-with-disjoint not a swordie.

Don't most specials cancel the momentum of special double jumps? I can only think of Yoshi's egg throw being the exception.

 

[NairWizard]

Don't write off Sora's counter as a mere counter. It's gonna be one of the best moves in the game, and super strong at edgeguarding recoveries that others might struggle to deal with.

 

[Nekoo]

Don't write off Sora's counter as a mere counter. It's gonna be one of the best moves in the game, and super strong at edgeguarding recoveries that others might struggle to deal with.

This.
Sora's counter might actually be the only counter to beat Ness's recovery.
The one beside Joker to counter Peach.

All because of this stun and counter attack mechanics.

 

[Idon]

This.
Sora's counter might actually be the only counter to beat Ness's recovery.
The one beside Joker to counter Peach.

All because of this stun and counter attack mechanics.

Well Sephiroth beats it cleanly as well. I don't believe at any part it breaks the wall.

The other counters can beat it as well, just that Ness moves so fast, he might just go through the counter, but if they're able to space it at the tail end of the recovery it'll kill them like you'd expect.

Sora's of course will be better by virtue of the instant stun of course.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

OrionStats update

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[Thinkaman]

I just saw Orion's update and came to comment on ROB's continued shattering of ceilings. He has blasted well past 5% of all OrionStats Points, and is now 2 entire log deviations from the mean.

But again, let's not let ROB make us overlook Roy. Even with ROB pressing down on him, Roy is still currently statistically outperforming every other top character from any point in the game's recording history.

Despite ROB and Roy, results are overall still more diverse and evenly distributed than in any previous era of data, which is a good sign. Less so now than 2 weeks ago, but well you can just thank mostly ROB for that.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Something noteworthy is the rise of in the past few months. All the buffs the character has been receiving from game updates has finally caught up to her. She already has a very dedicated and highly skilled playerbase, but they are now making more consistent impact in tournaments.

Additionally, the past few weeks have seen the return of Lima and tamim (returning to his original tag of Mistake), with Low Tide City marking Lima's high level play return. Both of them have already made a large impact in their respective regions.

The character has come a long way since vanilla Ultimate, where she was pretty bad and a mere tiny window shard of her SSB4 self.

 

[TennisBall]

Well Sephiroth beats it cleanly as well. I don't believe at any part it breaks the wall.

The other counters can beat it as well, just that Ness moves so fast, he might just go through the counter, but if they're able to space it at the tail end of the recovery it'll kill them like you'd expect.

Sora's of course will be better by virtue of the instant stun of course.

It can break it but it's not very commonly so.

Not like Seph needs particular help edgeguarding him lol

 

[Thinkaman]

's OrionStats results compared to :

Phase 1 (2019H1): 20%

Phase 2 (2019H2): 40%

Phase 3 (2020Q1): 10%

Phase 4 (2021): 88%

 

[Idon]

It can break it but it's not very commonly so.

Not like Seph needs particular help edgeguarding him lol

We really got 3 DLC-tier anti-hitbox recovery counters across the DLC.
It'd be funny if so many of my characters didn't get smacked by them lol.

 

[The_Bookworm]

's OrionStats results compared to :

Phase 1 (2019H1): 20%

Phase 2 (2019H2): 40%

Phase 3 (2020Q1): 10%

Phase 4 (2021): 88%

I believe the gap between the two was even smaller in the previous update, like 2-3 spot difference.
The difference now about 8 spots.

Falco players have been attending a bit more in tournaments (I think Riptide singlehandedly boosted his points the most by far of any seasons), while Fox has been a bit more scarce as a character, especially with events in Japan slowing down significantly with the recent state-of-emergency there.

Of course, thanks to Light, Fox still possesses top level results, but it is not as frequent as previous seasons.

 

[toonito]

OrionStats update

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biggest jump from last data (9/21): +10
biggest drop from last data (9/21): -6

 

[Aaron1997]

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[Hydreigonfan01]

OrionStats update

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Something worth mentioning is that is looking pretty close to overtake as the number 1 DLC character on OrionStats, especially with Sparg0 attending Smash Con Fall Fest and Port Priority 6. Japanese tournaments are coming back though, so we'll see how well Zackray will do with the character, because he hasn't won a major this year.

 

[Kokiden]

I will never get over how they made Sephiroth the same weight as Pikachu and Olimar...

I get balance but that's just ridiculous.

 

[blackghost]

I will never get over how they made Sephiroth the same weight as Pikachu and Olimar...

I get balance but that's just ridiculous.

With this being namco's second round at balancing a smash game they have taken the approach that wieght is a means to make characters less consistent that have high offensive toolkits.

Sepiroth is light because of one-wing existence imo.

 

[RonNewcomb]

Sora's counter might actually be the only counter to beat Ness's recovery.
The one beside Joker to counter Peach.

All because of this stun and counter attack mechanics.

That's a good point. His counter effectively has two ripostes, one of which is frame 1.

I will never get over how they made Sephiroth the same weight as Pikachu and Olimar...

I get balance but that's just ridiculous.

wieght is a means to make characters less consistent that have high offensive toolkits.

Yeah, and I feel its weird that Sora is a bit lighter than expected for a human character, and also, that they'd specifically call that out in the initial showcase.

Is Sora an offensive powerhouse?

Maybe with rage more of his combos become true, so the lightweight ensures that won't be a constant, every-stock thing for his opponent to deal with?