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Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

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    588

Hydreigonfan01

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Going to take in this opportunity to pick-up on what Ziodyne and Frihetsanka said earlier regarding :ultlucina:.

I find this to be a very strange thing to say, especially regarding the lower power level of Ultimate's DLC vs SSB4's DLC, but I feel that Lucina is one of the characters most adversely affected by DLC powercreep in Ultimate.

While she still has her notable players (i.e. Mr. E, Etsuji, Leon), she is definitely feeling more and more vanilla as a character. DLC, especially Fighter's Pass 2, would introduce more enticing DLC characters to play with than Lucina, especially regarding Sephiroth and Pyra/Mythra.

Two of her best players would drop her in favor of a higher-tiered DLC character, with MkLeo switching to Joker early on, and ProtoBanham recently stick-with and obtaining great success with Min Min.

On top of that, two of the already existing top tiered swordsmen, Roy and Shulk, started to gain more and more momentum as time went on, the former being somewhat similar moveset-wise, but hyper aggressive (and very effective at that) and easy to pick-up, resulting in him being extremely popular in tournaments (especially prior to online meta) with great results, and while the latter has a noticeably lower representation, but has obtained strong results thanks to Nicko and especially Kome, with some players outside of these two also doing well (i.e. DoubleA, Uncivil ninja, Tru4).

These two (and Chrom I guess) rose while Lucina, for the most part, stagnated. Add the more inviting DLC characters into the blender, which you can also add Cloud to the blender (especially regarding the online era), and you see Lucina's unfortunate situation right now. You end up seeing less and less of the character as time goes on.

Personally see her at the upper-end of high tier, probably around the same level as Cloud.
Honestly I think:ultchrom: might fall off too (He already was before the pandemic, with Rivers getting 33rd at Glitch 8 and 97th at Frostbite) but not as much as :ultlucina:. Not only is :ultroy: the better echo, but Pyra/Mythra are similar characters but have DLC to them such as Foresight, and Mythra in particular has better mobility and frame data than Chrom. Sephiroth also plays a better spacing game than Chrom does due to his added range, and has a much better recovery.
 

Nobie

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Splitting the difference, you could also make the argument that Mac's lackluster grab (and reward) is the weak link, and that that would be one of the better ways to holistically improve him. I still think general disadvantage is the bigger issue, but this does make more sense than anything else people talk about with Mac.
I don't want to get too far into buff speculation territory, but I imagine the reasoning behind Mac's poor grab game is just that he's supposed to be a boxer. That said, if they wanted to buff him in a way that improves his grab reward but still keeps in line with his character concept, I think they could just give him a ridiculous pummel that's just as fast as now (frame 1!) but does heavy damage (2% per hit, maybe even 3%), even if the throws themselves are weak. It'd be like getting punched in the liver repeatedly at close range.
 

blackghost

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i said lucina would go the fate of wesker very early on and so far it looks like im right. The character isn't bad by any stretch, but the character isnt unfair. there's no single tool or ability lucina does that another character cannot imitate or bypass.
if you want to play a spacing game with lucina why not do it with sepiroth and get OWA?
if you want to rushdown why not just play an aegis or joker?
lucina goes the route of other fundamental solid fair characters as metas develop and games age: the go extinct.
 

Hydreigonfan01

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i said lucina would go the fate of wesker very early on and so far it looks like im right. The character isn't bad by any stretch, but the character isnt unfair. there's no single tool or ability lucina does that another character cannot imitate or bypass.
if you want to play a spacing game with lucina why not do it with sepiroth and get OWA?
if you want to rushdown why not just play an aegis or joker?
lucina goes the route of other fundamental solid fair characters as metas develop and games age: the go extinct.
AFAIK the only player who’s still very open in believing in Lucina is ShinyMark. He thinks the character is top 6 which feels absurd to me when the characters falling off (though not as badly as Inkling). He does play Lucina but his Lucina IMO doesn’t feel like I’m watching a top 6 character, recently at the PAS Finale he started going Lucina against ESAM and ESAM had the advantage causing ShinyMark to switch to Pikachu (Where he 2 stocked ESAM twice in the ditto lol).
 
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So as maybe a last analysis of online tournaments, PGStats posted a similar graph for the SWT qualifiers that they made earlier this year for online in general.
And people really liked using the Aegis blades, to the point of bringing their win rates down so much. It'll be interesting to look at an analysis of the top 8/top 12 or only characters that qualified.
Also of note is that the top 5 of the 6 characters Thinkman pointed out - ROB, Min Min, Snake, Sonic, and Palutena - all had above average win rate usage and were pretty popular, with Steve having the most win rate (of the popular qualified characters) while having an above average win rate.
 
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Firox

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I’m all for making the playing field as even as possible, but this is just silly honestly. Part of living with disability is learning how to cope and deal with disability. It’s called a disability for a reason, it’s not going to make things as easy for you and they are for others, that’s not being mean that’s just how things work. We should absolutely make accommodations for disability whenever we can and I do applaud those who are trying but we also can’t make things bad for everyone in pursuit of that.
Absolutely agree. When it comes to certain stages being "too distracting" or certain characters being a problem for those that may have dyslexia, I'm sorry, but those factors shouldn't be allowed to hamper the game or the competitive scene simply because someone lacks the ability to adapt or is unable to. For example, to compete in any sport, a competitor is expected to be able to function in the event in which they compete. Olympic runners aren't expected to run on their hands and knees because a paraplegic wants to be in the race. Either you have working legs to run on or you don't. If you suffer from COPD and can't breathe well enough to run, you're not getting any medals. It sounds kind of rough, but it's just the nature of competition. If you can't perform, it's not fair to limit everyone else just for your sake. If arguments can be applied to everyone, then sure, accommodations can be made, but asking someone to switch off their main in a tournament because you have a hard time reading their menus is just petty and unfair. (And this comes from someone that actually hates playing against Hero.)
 
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Thinkaman

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Worth pointing out that this is exhibit #692 that raw win-rate is meaningless, with no correlation with usage nor general assessments of character strength.

(And exhibit #692 that raw usage, including per-game as displayed here, and character strength are reasonably correlated.)

Crazy how much less-used :ultbanjokazooie::ultdk::ultkingdedede: were here compared to other, less high-stakes/high-profile online events.
 

Frihetsanka

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Worth pointing out that this is exhibit #692 that raw win-rate is meaningless, with no correlation with usage nor general assessments of character strength.
What do you mean? Clearly, Dark Samus is much better than Samus, and Peach much better Daisy, and Richter much better than Simon, just look at the win rates!

I'm a bit surprised Sephiroth is that common. Though 1.8% isn't exactly super-common, I guess this goes to show that even online there's quite a bit of variety, no one even reaches 3% usage.
 

Gleam

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While it might not necessarily be a "Hot Take"

I"m going to stand under the position that once we get into more steady Offline Position, :ultsteve: is going to stand as a spectacularly High Tier, if not Top Tier character whose vast quantity of capabilities will no longer be diminished by the effects of Online play. For a character with a metaphorically endless connection of possible setups via Blocks, MineCart, TNT, Mining, etc. only makes me believe that primary Steve players will pushed that meta to an extreme.

You have a character here who is perfectly capable of creating different setups, creating any known condition that can't be easily decipher by the opponent. The difference here is, all those actions done by a Steve Player can, in practice, be entirely intentional.

One of the reasons I believe :ultsteve: to be able to stand in this position is that, despite being a very technical character, requiring an intense knowledge of things like jump techs, combos, block placements, etc, he continues to pull in such an gradiose results. If you can do all of that in an environment of unknown variables like Online, I see the same plus more happening Offline.

Where as so many other combo creative, tech heavy characters faltered in the wake of Online, Steve himself pushed beyond it. In the end, I think Steve has WAY, WAY, WAY, WAY to may potential setups within his kit and those weaknesses that he does have, are only going to halter him so much.
 

RonNewcomb

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Worth pointing out that this is exhibit #692 that raw win-rate is meaningless, with no correlation with usage nor general assessments of character strength.

(And exhibit #692 that raw usage, including per-game as displayed here, and character strength are reasonably correlated.)

Crazy how much less-used :ultbanjokazooie::ultdk::ultkingdedede: were here compared to other, less high-stakes/high-profile online events.
What are we calling character strength here, since it's not winrate?

I thought winrate was the primary factor in deciding what characters are strong.
 

Hydreigonfan01

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Initial Seeding for InfinityCON Tally 2021. (515 entrants, offline major)

Note - Sparg0 and Rivers were planning on going but couldn't make it. So unfortunately we will not be seeing offline results for Pyra/Mythra.

  1. Kola :ultroy: :ultcloud::ultsnake:
  2. Goblin :ultroy::ultike:
  3. Epic Gabriel :ultrob:
  4. Ned :ultpokemontrainerf::ultsephiroth:
  5. Fatality :ultfalcon:
  6. Aaron :ultdiddy:
  7. Myran :ultolimar:
  8. Nicko :ultshulk:
  9. Grayson :ultrob:
  10. MuteAce :ultpeach:
  11. VinnyG :ultsnake:
  12. Mugen :ultroy:
  13. Kobe :ultyounglink:
  14. JMafia :ultyoshi:
  15. Mystearcia :ultpalutena::ultzelda:
  16. Tachyon :ultpikachu:
That's a lot of Roy mains....
 

Thinkaman

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What are we calling character strength here, since it's not winrate?

I thought winrate was the primary factor in deciding what characters are strong.
Well, do you think DH, Steve, and (Dark) Samus are the strongest characters, and Marth/Lucina/Joker are the weakest?

Holistic character strength is infamously hard to measure, but I think OrionRank TTS is the best single measure this community has. (Deep-cut combined weighted results)
 
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What are we calling character strength here, since it's not winrate?

I thought winrate was the primary factor in deciding what characters are strong.
Winrate can be deceptive if the playrate is low (see Duck Hunt). It also doesn't tell us how many (or often the) characters were used in the later portion of the brackets. Say Duck Hunt's high winrate was because they dominated pools and maybe even phase 2, but they mostly whimpered out in Phase 3. That doesn't really tell us the character is strong. If anything, it tells us the character is being gatekept or has bad, common matchups that prevent them from being strong.
 
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RonNewcomb

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Winrate can be deceptive if the playrate is low (see Duck Hunt). It also doesn't tell us how many (or often the) characters were used in the later portion of the brackets. Say Duck Hunt's high winrate was because they dominated pools and maybe even phase 2, but they mostly whimpered out in Phase 3. That doesn't really tell us the character is strong. If anything, it tells us the character is being gatekept or has bad, common matchups that prevent them from being strong.
Thx for the excellent reply Game7a1. I was assuming winrate was tourney wins, not games or sets or whatever. I'll reread Thinkaman's posts now.
 

Thinkaman

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As a simple example, take Duck Hunt vs. Joker.

Talented DH mains play Duck Hunt. No one else does.
Talented Joker mains like MKLeo play Joker. And so do 100s of other players.

Certain characters and archetypes appeal more to "casually-competitive players", with "simple swords" being the most consistent pattern historically across multiple smash games.

Such characters have their raw win-rate weighed down by the droves of weaker players they attract (who way outnumber MKLeo), while the likes of Ice Climbers are represented almost exclusively by players making top 8.

This difference is so big/powerful, it overshadows any other meaning you could pull from looking at just the raw win-rate. Instead we have to filter the data like @DasKoopa does with a weighted methodology so that our view of Joker is more based on players ranging from MKLeo to sharp, and not how many 0-2 Jokers are in pools.

Edit: Example #2, what Frihetsanka Frihetsanka pointed out:
smash_SWT_clone_perf.png


Look at the difference between the "true clones." We know those characters are equal in strength, as a scientific fact. So all the differences we see here for each pair, in both usage and win-rates, are purely cultural: differences solely in the sort of player who picks one vs. the other.

And those cultural differences exist just as big, if not bigger, for unrelated characters. (Like Joker and Duck Hunt)
 
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TennisBall

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An extremely stacked offline event called Riptide is taking place sometime in September, full of very familiar faces including the likes of Leo, Tweek, Marss, etc.

Very excited even if it's far off.
 

TCT~Phantom

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Hot take. Part of the reason that Joker preforms so well in in person tournaments is because people instinctively gentleman to PS2.

I can't stress enough that bringing Joker to PS2 is one of those stage choices you just should not make, like taking a Mario to Yoshi's or the Aegis to Battlefield or Sonic to Kalos. While Joker is still arguably one of if not the best characters in Ultimate, I think at least some part is because so many people will just autopilot to PS2 and give Joker his best stage.

Speaking of stage hot takes, what other characters do you think disproportionately benefit from popular stages. I know Snake and Wolf also love PS2.
 

Hydreigonfan01

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Hot take. Part of the reason that Joker preforms so well in in person tournaments is because people instinctively gentleman to PS2.

I can't stress enough that bringing Joker to PS2 is one of those stage choices you just should not make, like taking a Mario to Yoshi's or the Aegis to Battlefield or Sonic to Kalos. While Joker is still arguably one of if not the best characters in Ultimate, I think at least some part is because so many people will just autopilot to PS2 and give Joker his best stage.

Speaking of stage hot takes, what other characters do you think disproportionately benefit from popular stages. I know Snake and Wolf also love PS2.
I think Pyra/Mythra benefit a lot on Yoshi's as well similarly to Mario due to Mythra's up air having very high base knockback. (Footage is against Pelupelu)
 
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So, if we all thought the second phase of the SWT would be completely offline, it won't. It has been leaked (and probably confirmed at this rate) that the South America Qualifier will be held online, just like with phase 1. I have a hunch that the East Asia (which include Japan) and Central America (which includes Mexico) Phase 2 qualifiers may go online as well.

At least we have InfinityCon for big offline tournaments.
 
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While the case numbers of Mexico and Japan regions are much lower than the US, it's more or less the policies that I'm more concerned with than the actual rate numbers. Japan has had so few cases but more "state of emergencies" that have prevented offline events in said country. It would be better to show the vaccination rates of the regions rather than the number of cases, and well, Japan is doing badly in that front (less than 10% getting the vaccine). I'm not sure when they'll see offline events return.

I'm not too familiar about Mexico's numbers (seems to be less than 20%), but I still stand by my hunch.

EDIT: Well, if all goes well in Japan, we may actually see an offline event from there: Kagaribi 4.
 
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TDK

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Matches and Character breakdown for InfinityCON Top 64, for those curious:

Winners:
Kola :ultroy: vs Jake :ultsteve:
Uncivil Ninja :ultshulk: vs Sebayee :ultgnw:
MuteAce :ultpeach: vs Axel~ :ultisabelle:
Kip! :ultwario: vs Denny :ultdarksamus:
Ned :ultsephiroth: :ultpokemontrainerf: vs ChocoTaco :ultlucas:
Kobe :ultyounglink: vs KirbyKid :ultkrool:
Aaron :ultdiddy: vs omega :ultjoker:
Mystearica :ultpalutena: :ultzelda: vs Geez :ultpalutena:(?)
JMafia :ultbrawler: vs Geist :ultbayonetta1:
Goblin :ultroy: vs Anathema :ultrob:
Myran :ultolimar: vs DiZ :ultpiranha:
Mugen :ultroy: vs Zie :ultpalutena:
Epic_Gabriel :ultrob: vs ChillyChilli :ultmario:
Niko :ultsephiroth: vs Dath :ultgreninja: :ultrobinf:
Fatality :ultfalcon: vs BluStriker :ultsonic:
Grayson :ultrob: vs Rideae :ultpichu:

Losers:
PikPocket :ultolimar: :ultvillager: :ultisabelle: vs Tiger :ultfox:
LightningCam :ultdiddy: vs LordMix :ultsteve:
Naz :ult_terry:(?) vs Diabeo :ultcloud:(?)
Mr. Sensei :ultpeach:(?) vs FEAR :ultzss:
Player 4 :ultpeach: vs iTheta :ultswordfighter: :ultbrawler:
Phuzix :ultsheik: vs Synergy :ultrobin:
Sem :ultdoc: vs Wing :ultyoshi:
Dinnermancer :ulthero: vs Pellonian :ultfalco:
Rorta :ultryu: vs stillos :ultike:
Undergod :ultsephiroth: :ultyoshi: vs Kwaz :ultlittlemac:
Ryo :ultbyleth: :ultike: :ultroy: :substitute: vs Evyn :ultsnake:
Balls :ultwario: vs Jahzz0 :ultken:
Apple :ulticeclimbers: :ultsteve: vs Mew2King :ultbowser: :substitute:
Zaphros :ultmario: vs Nelvin :ultdiddy:
C.Falcon :ultjoker: vs ChunkyKong :ultdk:
Psysilex :ultness: vs Mr. Worldwide :ultsimon:

Obviously one tournament isn't indicative of a meta but some thoughts:
  • There was a seriously huge amount of Roys in bracket today, including a lot who drowned. Likely just a regional thing as all the best Roys are in the southeastern USA but him being the most represented character wasn't exactly expected
  • Steve transitioned offline pretty gracefully here, with Jake managing a small upset over PikPocket and two others making it in through losers. Aaron may also have gone steve. Sephiroth lands a respectable three showings without as much noise, and, more surprising to me, 0 Min Mins and Fanservice Swords. If this becomes a trend for the latter, I'd be shocked if people kept putting them in top 10. Min Min at least has japan to back her up so far. It's also more likely that there simply wasn't any good players of either character in attendance.
  • Multiple Isabelle and Mii players making top 64, including one in winners, is very surprising. Axel~ in particular wasn't a noted wifi player, but got very good results at GA weeklies prior to this, including a set win on fatality.
  • One straggler Ryu, Mac, and Dr. Mario making top 64 through losers is interesting as well.
  • the wifi warrior crew (Jake, Apple, ChunkyKong) did better than a lot of people may have anticipated just by making it into top 64 at all.

hello, I'm back. I'm glad to see people are coming around on Lucina not being top tier, hopefully you all figure out Palutena isn't either soon.
 
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subterrestrial

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steve top tier

minmin top tier

pythra top tier

seph top tier

wario top tier even after the nerfs

pika joker top 2 and all of these characters are better than palu
 

Hydreigonfan01

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Matches and Character breakdown for InfinityCON Top 64, for those curious:

Winners:
Kola :ultroy: vs Jake :ultsteve:
Uncivil Ninja :ultshulk: vs Sebayee :ultgnw:
MuteAce :ultpeach: :ultpalutena: vs Axel~ :ultisabelle:
Kip! :ultwario: vs Denny :ultdarksamus:
Ned :ultsephiroth: :ultpokemontrainerf: vs ChocoTaco :ultlucas:
Kobe :ultyounglink: vs KirbyKid :ultkrool:
Aaron :ultdiddy: vs omega :ultjoker:
Mystearica :ultpalutena: :ultzelda: vs Geez :ultpalutena:(?)
JMafia :ultbrawler: vs Geist :ultbayonetta1:
Goblin :ultroy: vs Anathema :ultrob:
Myran :ultolimar: vs DiZ :ultpiranha:
Epic_Gabriel :ultrob: vs ChillyChilli :ultmario:
Niko :ultsephiroth: vs Dath :ultgreninja: :ultrobinf:
Fatality :ultfalcon: vs BluStriker :ultsonic:
Grayson :ultrob: vs Rideae :ultpikachu:

Losers:
PikPocket :ultolimar: :ultvillager: :ultisabelle: vs Tiger :ultfox:
LightningCam :ultdiddy: vs LordMix :ultsteve:
Naz :ult_terry:(?) vs Diabeo :ultcloud:(?)
Mr. Sensei :ultpeach:(?) vs FEAR :ultzss:
Player 4 :ultpeach: vs iTheta :ultswordfighter: :ultbrawler:
Fang :ultness: vs Synergy :ultrobin:
Sem :ultdoc: vs Wing :ultyoshi:
Dinnermancer :ulthero: vs Pellonian :ultfalco:
Rorta :ultryu: vs stillos :ultike:
Undergod :ultsephiroth: :ultyoshi: vs Kwaz :ultlittlemac:
Ryo :ultbyleth: :ultike: :ultroy: :substitute: vs Evyn :ultsnake:
Balls :ultwario: vs Jahzz0 :ultken:
Apple :ulticeclimbers: :ultsteve: vs Mew2King :ultbowser: :substitute:
Zaphros :ultmario: vs Nelvin :ultdiddy:
C.Falcon :ultjoker: vs ChunkyKong :ultdk:
Psysilex :ultness: vs Mr. Worldwide :ultsimon:

Obviously one tournament isn't indicative of a meta but some thoughts:
  • There was a seriously huge amount of Roys in bracket today, including a lot who drowned. Likely just a regional thing as all the best Roys are in the southeastern USA but him being the most represented character wasn't exactly expected
  • Steve transitioned offline pretty gracefully here, with Jake managing a small upset over PikPocket and two others making it in through losers. Aaron may also have gone steve. Sephiroth lands a respectable three showings without as much noise, and, more surprising to me, 0 Min Mins and Fanservice Swords. If this becomes a trend for the latter, I'd be shocked if people kept putting them in top 10. Min Min at least has japan to back her up so far. It's also more likely that there simply wasn't any good players of either character in attendance.
  • Multiple Isabelle and Mii players making top 64, including one in winners, is very surprising. Axel~ in particular wasn't a noted wifi player, but got very good results at GA weeklies prior to this, including a set win on fatality.
  • One straggler Ryu, Mac, and Dr. Mario making top 64 through losers is interesting as well.
  • the wifi warrior crew (Jake, Apple, ChunkyKong) did better than a lot of people may have anticipated just by making it into top 64 at all.

hello, I'm back. I'm glad to see people are coming around on Lucina not being top tier, hopefully you all figure out Palutena isn't either soon.
Would like to point out that the best Pyra/Mythra players (Sparg0, Leo, Cosmos and VoiD) didn’t attend the event and neither did the best Min Min players.
BTW, Sparg0 posted that he may be dropping Cloud.
 
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SKX31

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Would like to point out that the best Pyra/Mythra players (Sparg0, Leo, Cosmos and VoiD) didn’t attend the event and neither did the best Min Min players.
BTW, Sparg0 posted that he may be dropping Cloud.
The second tweet should've been included since it explains why he's feeling that way, going to quote it (emphasis mine):

It felt like I somewhat forced myself to play this character and I didn’t really enjoy it at all, pythra is like 10 times better and 100 more fun to play as. Hope this isn’t the case since I do need cloud for some mus but I wouldn’t like to force myself to play this character.
I don't think he'll entirely drop Cloud (see below), but he shouldn't feel like forcing himself to play a character. Honestly, I wouldn't mind if he took a break or something similar. And likewise if he drops the character it's understandable.

He then goes on to note in a response that in his opinion Cloud does make a lot of Pyra / Mythra's MUs a bit easier to handle:

Only losing mu cloud covers I’d say is fox but he still makes a lot of mus way easier than with pythra such as mario, shotos, snake, zoners such as pac man, mega man, etc etc. Pythra doesn’t lose those mus but they are way easier with cloud
That doesn't mean Pyra / Mythra lose those MUs, but I can certainly imagine that playing Pyra / Mythra could be very demanding vs. those characters and potentially mentally draining in the long term if there's this need to be ready to switch at any point, space and land safely vs. several of their shenaningas and extend combos / advantage just right. It's why I don't think he'll drop Cloud - it appears he has a lot of utility still, and I agree with Riddles' response there - but again, he shouldn't feel like forcing himself.
 

KirbySquad101

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Tbh, I think the "100 times more fun" bit is more interesting to talk about concerning :ultcloud: than the viability of the character.

I remember someone mentioning how :ultwolf: went a very... "vanilla route" - A top tier with very clear and prominent strengths, but one that is often tossed aside by players in favor of top tiers with more interesting and fulfilling designs and kits like Peach or Joker. And whoo boy, do I think there isn't a single character more worth of that route than everyone's favorite Buster Sword wielding swordsman, because once you get just the mere basics down with the character... what exactly is left? There's the neat instances where you can follow up an NAir into UAir when you have Limit on deck, there's the one or two times you can trip someone up with an unfinished Cross Slash offstage, but I'm not kidding when I say that's all she wrote about the character.

Neutral is exceedingly straightforward almost to a mundane degree, especially against the 80% of the cast Cloud can easily wall out. Things are a little more involved against the occasional distance demon like Min Min who can penetrate his bubble from a few feet away, but for the most part, against your typical Wolf, Palu, Mario, G&W, Peach, Pac-Man, etc. you ain't doing much besides the standard BAir/Cross Slash walling along with the occasional OoS Climhazzard and waiting game with Limit Charge. Even advantage state doesn't have much varied to offer outside of the BAir into Cross Slash conversion or UAir juggles. Things only start becoming interesting in the disadvantage state, more specifically offstage, because Cloud is very easily capable of dying at 40~50% against most of the cast there and he's not exactly jacked with strong recovery options like most characters are. That said, once you reach that point, you're basically playing just not to lose, and that doesn't really sound fun when said aloud, does it?

Don't misunderstand me: This isn't me talking about Cloud's viability in any way whatsoever. The character's got very clear cut and admirable strengths: Massive safe hitboxes, absurd movement to compliment it, good set of defensive neutral tools (burst options, OoS options, camping tools), and a great way to force characters to approach. This makes for a very good straightforward gameplan against a good chunk of the cast, and it can feel so cool to feel so... "powerful" without much effort in the first couple or so matches. I did when I used him for the first time. But like I said earlier, you aren't doing much with the character you haven't been already doing when you started picking him up, and it can get pretty dull to a point where I really only use him to deal with the occasional ZSS or Ike when I don't feel like chasing them as G&W.

In that regard, that makes him a strong secondary because he isn't a very mentally demanding character (barring offstage) all things considered, and he's got very relevant MUs against the likes of characters like Mario, Pac-Man, Fox, or G&W. That said, I feel like characters like Chrom, Roy, Sephiroth, Shulk - or in the case of Sparg0's situation - Pythra, all have the higher ceiling that makes them more fulfilling characters to do well with. He kinda parallels someone like Lucina in that regard: He's a swordie that's great to start off with and can very easily get the job done, but if you want someone you can really sink your teeth into in the lab for a good while... I don't think you'll find that with him (from what I gathered, Niko also found Cloud too boring and switched to Sephiroth).

Not to say he needs it or anything, but part of me kinda wants to see the nerfs on his aerials reverted, because while some may argue that pushed him over the edge, I think it gives him a far more interesting neutral and advantage game.

Of course, there is something I could be missing about Cloud, so take it for what it's worth.
 
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Ziodyne 21

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InfinityCon Top 8

Winners Bracket

Kola :ultroy::ultcloud:vs Aaron :ultdiddy:

Myran :ultolimar: vs Fatality :ultfalcon:


Losers Bracket

Kobe :ultyounglink:vs Epic_Gabriel :ultrob:

Ned :ultsephiroth:vs MuteAce :ultpeach:

Aarons run with Diddy seems like he may be a strong contender especially with Tweek using him. Fatality also is the slayer of R.O.B's beating both Grayson and Epic_Gabriel to get into Top-8 winners. Also it did not take long for Peach to get good offline results even with her top main no longer around.


:ultsteve: got a decent placing in offline with Jake at 9th. Which is pretty impressive considering this was Jake's very first offline tournament
 
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blackghost

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Jul 9, 2015
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4:12
when people say sepiroth is nuts offline, its not that the character gets some magical new tool or something. its that players can now react and punish things that most other characters can only dream of doing.
im in that camp. this character is crazy in the hands of a highly skilled player.
i wanted to put the kill hit form game 1 here as a screen shot, but something is wrong. Just pause it when game one ends and look at the screen.
 

Ziodyne 21

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Okay. I know a while ago as talking about how :ultlucina: was falling behind and was being affected a "DLC Power Creep" . But man Kobe very well near reversed 3-0'd Ned's Sepiroth with a Lucina Counterpick with one of the closest Game 5's I have seen in a while.

It basically would of been the exact reverse situation of the Ned vs Mr.E set the SWT qualifier. Kobe was making a fairly convincing case for Lucina. I mean In the entire history of competitive how often has a "Pocket Lucina" CP Actually worked out in sets. The success rate can't be that terribly high...


But aside from that. Ned is making Sepiroth look legitimately bonkers offline. Like the difference between offline and online looking like freaking night and day
 
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The_Bookworm

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InfinityCON Tally 2021 (422 Entrants)

1st: Kola:ultcloud::ultroy::ultsnake:
2nd: Ned:ultsephiroth::ultpokemontrainerf:
3rd: Myran:ultolimar:
4th: Kobe:ultyounglink:
5th: Fatality:ultfalcon:
5th: Aaron:ultdiddy:
7th: Epic_Gabriel:ultrob:
7th: MuteAce:ultpeach:
9th: Zie:ultpalutena:
9th: JMafia:ultyoshi::ultbrawler::ultsteve:
9th: Jake:ultsteve:
9th: Grayson:ultrob:
13th: Mugen:ultroy:
13th: KirbyKid:ultkrool:
13th: Mystearica:ultpalutena::ultzelda:
13th: Anathema:ultrob:
17th: Axel~:ultisabelle:
17th: Omega:ultjoker:
17th: Niko:ultsephiroth:
17th: Goblin:ultchrom::ultroy::ultike:
17th: ChillyChiili:ultmario:
17th: Denny:ultdarksamus:
17th: Rideae:ultpichu:
17th: sebayee:ultgnw:
25th: Geez:ultpalutena:
25th: ChocoTaco:ultlucas:
25th: LordMix:ultsteve:
25th: Geist:ultbayonetta1:
25th: DiZ:ultpiranha::ultkingdedede::ultsonic:
25th: ChunkyKong:ultdk:
25th: Dath:ultrobin::ultgreninja:
25th: Kip!:ultrob::ultjoker:


First offline major event since CEO Dreamland 2020 14 months ago.
Of course, one offline major in over a year is not inductive of what is to come in the overall meta, but it nice to see us getting back to our feet at last.
 

Wunderwaft

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A mistake I noticed Jake did at his sets with Ned is that he often retreated too far and reset neutral after a successful interaction and didn't capitalize on his advantage state. Steve can't afford to reset neutral a lot of times with even and losing matchups (Sephiroth is a losing match up for Steve btw).

Now I understand why he did it, retreating means more time to mine and more time to mine means getting resources and diamond. However I feel he retreated TOO far in certain cases. Look at 7:09 of the vod for an example of what I mean, Jake retreated all the way back to the edge of the stage after a successful neutral interaction and built his wall, this put him at disadvantage and ended up costing him the match. Steve doesn't do well when he's cornered at the edge of a stage and running to the corner is a mistake I notice a lot of Steves do.

Regardless, for his first offline tournament Jake did incredibly well, with him only losing to Kola and Ned who were both respectively first and second place.
 
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BlazGreen

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The next few months should be interesting with offline slowly coming back. Not only will we get a proper look at how :ultminmin:ultsteve::ultsephiroth: and :ultpyra: fair offline but the final two characters should be arriving soon. In fact the next character might even be out by the end of the month.
 

Hydreigonfan01

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As it's been over 24 hours since the last post because Smashboards went down, I'm double posting.

This is just a thought experiment, but I believe we should show each our own tier lists and try to explain our reasoning as to why just like they did in the recent Tweek Talks episode.
This is mine.
My tier list.jpg

B tier characters and below are not relevant in the meta too much aside from :ultduckhunt:, don't care about them.

My list is mostly based around consistency in bracket.
Onto characters, I'm always iffy on :ultpikachu:. Sometimes I think the theory mostly stacks up, particularly when I watch ShinyMark play the character and he'll get some zero-to-death combo with the character or give the opponent over 70% while making the character incredibly hard to hit but it's hard to deny that Pikachu's results are pretty low, so my opinion always varies. Other times I think he's on par with Shulk as another one of the "theoretical potential" characters.

I think Pyra/Mythra and Sephiroth are busted as hell. I don't think :ultsephiroth: actually loses to rushdown as badly as people think (He does well against Ken and Terry and I'd call them rushdown), though it does depend from character to character, and having so many of the attributes that make Byleth decent but giving the character actual good mobility and a busted comeback mechanic makes him absurd. Someone with that large range, Winged Form (Which is just as broken as Arsene if not better), Shadow Flare and a top 2 counter just causes a lot of characters lower on the tier list to be completely invalidated.

Pyra/Mythra's kit is based entirely on not having a neutral a lot of the time, they just go straight to advantage state and that is scary because of Mythra's fantastic advantage state and how she can do so much damage, having kill setups, decent range and fantastic mobility make her a complete threat. Pyra's ledgetrapping game is also really good. Foresight is a broken tool and usually ends up being a complete get out of jail free card when getting juggled similarly to Flip Jump, and it's such a nasty counter mechanic that can put opponents in severely bad positions due to the slowdown effect. Sparg0 has also shown doing excellent with this character online and I can't wait to see his Pyra/Mythra offline.

I think :ultwolf: is extremely busted now, with most of the top tiers being nerfed except him. He's incredibly easy to play, he basically only loses like 4/5 matchups and he beats most of the cast, especially zoners. He has disjoints, you can basically play him anyway you want to whether as a campy anti-zoner, a brawler, a swordfighter or a grappler, he has one of the best projectiles in the game, great mobility with a good initial dash and air speed and he has great kill moves. A lot of his moves are also just some of the best in the game naturally, he doesn't really have a bad move other than down tilt which is more just mediocre rather than outright bad. His only flaws are his recovery which is still decent and the fact that he's a bit of combo food due to being a fastfaller and being rather tall.
 
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The_Bookworm

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I think :ultwolf: is extremely busted now, with most of the top tiers being nerfed except him. He's incredibly easy to play, he basically only loses like 4/5 matchups and he beats most of the cast, especially zoners. He has disjoints, you can basically play him anyway you want to whether as a campy anti-zoner, a brawler, a swordfighter or a grappler, he has one of the best projectiles in the game, great mobility with a good initial dash and air speed and he has great kill moves. A lot of his moves are also just some of the best in the game naturally, he doesn't really have a bad move other than down tilt which is more just mediocre rather than outright bad. His only flaws are his recovery which is still decent and the fact that he's a bit of combo food due to being a fastfaller and being rather tall.
Wolf did get nerfed early on. Wolf's down smash, while still strong, did get nerfed twice. More significantly, his Blaster did get some notable nerfs, with 3.0.0 giving the projectile negative shield damage, and 3.1.0 increasing the move's endlag.

His weaknesses are more notable than you give it credit, as he can have trouble landing finishers at times, as his strongest KO moves typically have slow startup and he lacks any guaranteed ways to set-up into them (outside of cheesy Wolf Flash set-ups). His recovery is overall very exploitable, as side B is very linear and up B travels poor distance.

Very good character, but I don't think he is anywhere close to top 5, especially since top-level Wolf is hard to come by nowadays.


Btw, I would be glad to share my tier list and give my thoughts with them, but I am afraid of starting a whole "tier list sharing" war in this thread.
I want to get the go-ahead first before sharing.
 

Ziodyne 21

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Apr 11, 2016
Messages
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Well Regarding Tweek's Latest Tier List, First thing is that they were technically only 4 tiers (With:ultlittlemac:bing the only one in the lowest section, ) But this game is pretty well balanced despite its very large cast. While there are certainly characters can be cosndiered "top" tier, The power gaps between Top and high. then down to High and Mid are not terribly large. For the most part characters have enough going for them to make them somewhat viable.

But all that being said here are some thoughts going by Tweek's views on tiers.

:ultness: Should be in A-Tier no doubt, possible at higher end. Sure he is possibly "online buffed" and thus become more dominat in the online era. But they were already getting strong results post-pandemic and backed by very strong talent. :ultcloud: could also be placed at the higher end of A

:ultpichu::ultfalcon:can also right to A tier as well.

:ultsephiroth: Can possibly be a S-tier contender. Especially we got a tate of what Offline Sepiroth can do with Ned's perfomrance InfinityCon, But I hesitate to call him top 5 . It is a good thing Sepiroth is so light. Because a Seph with both OWA and high rage looks honestly more scary/threatening than any version of :ultlucario:with High or even Max Aura

:ultpeach: being A tier I can kinda agree with Tweek's Reasoning. She is very dominating when she is advantage but there are many characters that she can have issues with. Still I think she is still top-tier material if maybe not say top-5. Of course her results may suffer with her Top main now out of the picture. But hey, MuteAce got top 8 at Infinity Con.

:ultsheik: being S tier may be going a bit crazy. I mean Sheik is still good and is fairly good match for a lot of top or high tiers.. But I still A Tier , heck I would maybe switch her with :ultminmin on the list.

:ultpacman: Actullally, I was considering Pac to be a possible top-15 contender for a while. Pac has such odd yet very effective zoning and boxing tools that seem to give meany meta relevant and rising meta characters complete fits Such as characters whos gameplan also revolves around generating items and setplay (:ultsnake::ultdiddy::ultsteve:) for example. I would like to see if notable Pac reps like Lea and Shinji can continue to get results

:ultpikachu:Yea ...many people on this board have been vocal on their opinions of "Putting a electric rat in top 5 regardless" So I would add anything


Also I would not say :ultlittlemac:is the definitive "worst character" or deserves his own special tier.. At least maybe throw :ultdoc::ultganondorf:down there to keep him company
 
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Nah

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Wolf is gross and has always been gross in this game and we don't need to pretend that his "nerfs" were anything other than slaps on the wrist, but I'm not here to get into that argument, I just have a question:

3.0.0 giving the projectile negative shield damage,
How does a move deal negative shield damage? Like I'm probably just misunderstanding what you mean, but "negative shield damage" to me sounds like you get shield health back from it getting hit by a move and that doesn't make sense
 
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How does a move deal negative shield damage? Like I'm probably just misunderstanding what you mean, but "negative shield damage" to me sounds like you get shield health back from it getting hit by a move and that doesn't make sense
Negative shield damage just reduces the amount of damage it does to the shield. So, in the case of Wolf's Blaster, instead of dealing 6 to 8% of damage onto the shield, it now deals 3 to 4% of shield damage because it has -3 to -4 shield damage applied the blaster (effectively half the amount of damage it usually does when not shielding). Think of negative shield damage not as getting some shield health back but the attack dealing less damage when guarding as the negative shield damage happens during the calculation of how much shield damage was inflicted. It would be the same kind of calculation of additional shield damage (like, say, for Puff's Pound), but instead of adding, negative shield damage just subtracts. So Wolf's Blaster still does shield damage; it just does less after the negative shield damage is factored in.

Better examples would be Hero's Crit Smash Attacks and Ridley's tipper Skewer. The latter, without negative shield damage being factored into the calculation, would just break shields instantly, but it doesn't because it has so much reduced shield damage, it deals as much shield damage as non-tipper Skewer. As for Hero's Crit Smash attacks, they have a shield damage reduction that's half the amount of damage they do (effectively the same amount as non-crit smash attacks), so you don't see a non-buffed Crit F-Smash breaking a shield in one go.
 
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