Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

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Thinkaman

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Unless I'm missing someone, no one was given (non-QoL) changes tonight who had been changed in the last 2 patches. Seems to be a logical implication of corona: only doing QoL, addressing weird skill skew cases, and low-usage characters that missed changes the last two times.

Need to see numbers + implications of the Lucario, Junior, and Belmont changes. But ICs is just obviously the winner of the night. They could have just the Belay + Nana changes, and it would be bigger than any other character cahnge in the patch.

Also, zero commentary on the 2-frame parry change being made global?
 

Aaron1997

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big for Steve's OOS



Buffer shield when you Down-smash on top of TNT to avoid hurting your self




Place TNT on ledge -> hit TNT with D-tilt and the TNT will fall off the stage -> Recoveries with hitbox's will blow it up
 
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Envoy of Chaos

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The Ness changes are nice, but they aren't really going to change the character that much imo. This is fine though, since Ness never needed buffs in the first place.

Dash attack is going to be the ultimate scrub killer now. lol


The mining on TNT mechanic is pretty cool tech. However it is still risky since the explosion is very powerful.

In terms of why it doesn't work on Battlefield, FD, and SB, I am assuming that this a development oversight when applying the same material pool to every single Battlefield and FD form.
Yeah he’s not like improved by a lot over night but these are buffs that will make his life just a bit easier and make using him feel better. Just the fact they were willing to buff so much with Ness means they aren’t unwilling to give him changes in the future that will actually move up upwards a lot.
 

Gearkeeper-8a

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Its pretty funny how only 6 months ago those changes (sonic and ness ones really) would look fair or good to most people but now suddenly those changes are bad because those characters are top tier on "online" gameplay, I know smashers recency bias are strong but holy **** people.

This is as a whole is a good patch, not only character based(ice climbers, lucario) but system based(Arenas and multihits).
 

Thinkaman

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Yeah he’s not like improved by a lot over night but these are buffs that will make his life just a bit easier and make using him feel better. Just the fact they were willing to buff so much with Ness means they aren’t unwilling to give him changes in the future that will actually move up upwards a lot.
I would not hold my breath for this particularly lightning to strike twice, lol.

Honestly, I think the Ness and Sonic buffs are getting way more discussion than they merit, speaking mostly towards Twitter/Reddit ect. People are acting like they buffed Ness b-throw, bair, and down-b, rather than u-throw, dair, and neutral-b.

Looking back at my pre-lockdown data, :ultness: was seeing usage and results numbers almost exactly identical to pre-buff :ultcloud:; both two of the most-used and most-underperforming characters in the game, second only to :ultbowser:. (And possibly :ultganondorf: depending on how you compare him.) Meanwhile, :ultsonic: was a middle-of-the-pack character with numbers most similar to pre-buff :ultyounglink:.

The real surprise isn't that they are not prioritizing online sentiment (that was obvious from the moment 3.1.0 landed), but that they are not swayed by Japanese powerhouses KEN and Gackt.

2.0.0: [:ultpiranha:] Wide variety of post-release adjustments; not really the pattern we saw in following patches.

3.0.0: [:ultjoker:] :ultkirby::ultsheik::ultmewtwo::ultdiddy: :ultcorrin: :ultkrool:
3.1.0: [VR] {:ultluigi:}:ultfalcon:(:ultpeach::ultdaisy:)(:ultpichu:)(:ultlucina:):ultdiddy:(:ultolimar:):ultlucario:(:ultwolf:):ultrosalina::ultlittlemac::ultbowserjr::ultryu::ultken::ultbayonetta:
4.0.0: [:ulthero:] :ultmewtwo::ultpit::ultdarkpit:(:ultivysaur:):ultcharizard::ultlucas::ultcorrin::ultridley::ultisabelle::ultpiranha:
5.0.0: [:ultbanjokazooie:] (None)
6.0.0: [:ult_terry:] :ultdk::ultkirby::ultjigglypuff::ultrobin::ultkrool::ultincineroar:


7.0.0: [:ultbyleth:] :ultsamus::ultdarksamus::ultsheik::ultzelda::ultdoc::ultyounglink:(:ultzss:):ulttoonlink:(:ultpalutena:) :ultryu::ultken::ultcloud:(:ultjoker:)
8.0.0: [:ultminmin] :ultkirby::ultfalcon::ultfalco::ultmarth::ultmewtwo::ultmetaknight::ultpit::ultdarkpit:{:ultike:}{:ultdiddy:}:ultkingdedede::ultvillager::ultwiifittrainer::ultcorrin::ultbayonetta::ultkrool::ultisabelle::ultincineroar::ultpiranha:
9.0.0: [Steve] :ultness::ulticeclimbers::ultsonic::ultlucario:{:ultshulk:}:ultbowserjr::ultsimon::ultrichter:

I count 40 characters (including echoes) that received a comprehensive slate of changes in the three 2020 patches, or in ZSS's case a single (but unambiguous) nerf. No character was given comprehensive balance changes in more than one patch this year.

Most characters buffed in 2019 were buffed again in 2020. (17/24) :ultrosalina::ultlittlemac::ultlucas::ultridley::ultdk::ultjigglypuff::ultrobin: were not. These characters tended to have "better numbers" than most of the characters buffed in 2020, but obviously not all. Except Rosalina, all seem likely candidates for buffs in 2021.

5 characters were comprehensively-but-softly nerfed in 2019. (3.1.0) 3 characters were similarly nerfed in 2020 (7.0.0), with no overlap.

These characters have never received targeted balance changes post-2.0.0:
:ultbowser::ultduckhunt::ultfox::ultganondorf::ultgreninja::ultinkling::ultlink::ultmegaman::ultgnw::ultpacman::ultpikachu::ultsquirtle::ultrob::ultroy::ultchrom::ultsnake::ultwario::ultyoshi:
::ultbrawler::ultgunner::ultswordfighter: (Have had specific specials buffed though)
:ulthero::ultbanjokazooie::ult_terry::ultbyleth::ultminmin

Of these non-DLC characters, only Ganon (and maaaaaaaaybe Duck Hunt if you squint) have any mathematical justification for buffs. You could make a clear mathematical case for nerfing Wario (the character who by far most outperforms his usage), but it's unclear how valid that argument would really be. But it remains a compelte mystery what, if anything, the balance team will do with Ganon, who remains the most abberant data point by far.
 

Cheryl~

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The Sonic Up-Air fix isn’t just a nice QOL change imo, it gives Sonic mains back a consistent rising Up-Air which they’ve lacked since the transition from Smash 4 to Ultimate, Sonic’s Up-Air in Ultimate definitely isn’t the busted mess it was in 4 but I think giving them another option for juicy combos and overall more consistency will help Sonic more than people think, more notably offline where he isn’t obscene.
 

KirbySquad101

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:ultshulk: 's Shield Art wasn't just useful for breaking out of combos. Using it offstage to force his way back onto the stage, or more importantly using it in neutral to force opponents to run away from him - leaving him with complete control of the stage on top of giving him time to recharge his other Monados - put several characters in a bad spot against him unless they had a mashable attack that wasn't negative on hit against Shield Shulk (i.e.:ultrob:'s or :ultness: 's DTilt).


The multiplier for Shield Art knockback has been increased from 0.5x to 0.6x, bringing it closer to what it was in SSB4 (0.78x), and while it doesn't seem too big, any change that lets players get away with respecting Shield Art less puts a damper on Shulk's defense (although Shulk's still silly good).

There isn't much we've seen about the change in practice, although Dusty gives us a good start to work off of:

 
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NotLiquid

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I've said since the start of the game's shelf life that Sonic being an annoyingly good character isn't an excuse for his non-functional moves to remain non-functional. Making so up air and up smash actually work now isn't something that should be decried, if your measure of a character's traits rests on how much moves don't do what they're intended to do, then you're a bit too fixated on going for the gotcha.

His dash attack/up tilt changes are also rather interesting on paper since they seem to be approaching them from the standpoint that Sonic's over-reliance on spin dash largely stems from a lack of good neutral options. It's not been a secret for most of his Smash tenure that Sonic's general move set quality is, quite frankly, mediocre. A case can be made that he relies so much on his spin dash in part because it encumbers every other alternative, but by making dash attack a little safer on top of all the other changes, he might be more inclined to play aggressive. Of course that still doesn't stop the character from being able to double back on his better options, but I can at least sort of get the intent.

Same might apply for Ness, albeit I can't say the character was ever overcentralized enough in that same way that he needed any alterations in this matter. The changes don't actually mean much for him from what I can tell, with that down air speed buff being a bit of a possible exception.
 

Untouch

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Noticed something with Steve's crafting table.
When hit you get a little bit of hitlag.
:ultwiifittrainer: has a tech where you spawn a ball and then shield under it, if a hitbox hits the ball it freezes the character in hitlag for a couple of frames, making the attack significantly easier to punish.
It isn't used because it takes a long time to set up.

Steve can spawn the table while in shield though, does that work here too? It'd be really busted if it did.
 

VodkaHaze

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Just here to point out that Twitter combo videos do not necessarily mean a character is broken. They could be, but if it's hard to perform them in an actual match, or if it has counterplay by a good chunk of the cast, you're probably not going to hear that character is broken in the next couple of months.
 

SwagGuy99

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KEN thinks Sonic could be top 10 now.
I don't believe this to be the case honestly, I think Sonic has always been (and still is) a Top 25 to Top 30 characters who is all around solid, but not amazing. His changes this patch were all just QoL changes and I think that overall, while Sonic is good, his matchup spread is more lackluster than Sonic mains make it out to be. I feel like something Sonic mains tend to gloss over is how Sonic deals with scenarios where his opponent has the ability to play around spindash and spincharge in neutral on his first stock. If Sonic fails to get a lead early, it seems like he has a lot of trouble trying to make up deficits in a lot of scenarios, partially due to his lack of kill power. :ultyounglink::ultwiifittrainer::ultwolf: and :ultluigi: all have decent tools in neutral and also are good at either intercepting or preventing Sonic from using side-b or down-b safely, but I guarantee that Sonic mains will try to argue that Sonic wins these matchups when he probably doesn't (and I can see him losing to the latter two).

I think that in terms of matchups, Sonic mains severely overrate how good his matchup spread is, I think he has a lot more even and slight losing matchups than most Sonic mains like to admit he has against top and high tiers, although his ability to prevent a lot of mid tiers from being able to even touch him in a lot of scenarios as well as him having some good matchups against relevant characters (:ultjoker: and :ultken:) also keeps him far from being a mid tier himself. He's a solid high tier in my opinion, and I don't see this changing unless he gets some completely unnecessary non-QoL changes.
 
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Kiligar

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I don’t think Sonic has ever been overrated in Ultimate. In fact I believe he’s been underrated. Speed is such a vital thing in that for some characters when you don’t have enough speed you simply can’t keep up with characters like ZSS, or can’t get in against zoners. That recovery alone is top 15 and allows him to escape disadvantage for free a lot of the time. His neutral with spin dash is amazing despite how repetitive the move may be, there are many ways to mix up the move and when it starts moving it gets invincibility, it’s hard to punish on shield (if not often impossible), and it’s the fastest mobility move in the game faster than Sonic himself and Hero Acceleratle. Sonic’s combo damage is alright, not always amazing but due to his speed and frame data he can go off in advantage state at times and in certain matchups. Especially when it comes to his absurd edge guarding.

Sonic’s main weakness is how he can struggle to kill at times, fortunately he has just enough tools to get the kill with his edge guarding, forward smash 2 frame and reads, back throw on lighter characters, and now his Uair is a more consistent kill option. Up smash may be more useful as well after the buff. I don’t think Sonic is overrated he has exactly what Ultimate wants from him, and kill power is far from the most important trait in Ultimate, which is why Ganon and Little Mac are still awful, and why Pikachu, Mario, Diddy Kong, Non-Arsene Joker and Young Link are so good. Even if you pick a different example than Mac and ganon, someone with a good recovery, king dedede despite his kill power on top of a good recovery he’s still lacking what Ultimate wants, which is frame data and mobility. Incineroar has a pretty good recovery and good frame data+kill power but he lacks speed. It’s much easier and more consistent to get away with not having good kill power than any of the other attributes.
 

SwagGuy99

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I don’t think Sonic has ever been overrated in Ultimate. In fact I believe he’s been underrated. Speed is such a vital thing in that for some characters when you don’t have enough speed you simply can’t keep up with characters like ZSS, or can’t get in against zoners. That recovery alone is top 15 and allows him to escape disadvantage for free a lot of the time. His neutral with spin dash is amazing despite how repetitive the move may be, there are many ways to mix up the move and when it starts moving it gets invincibility, it’s hard to punish on shield (if not often impossible), and it’s the fastest mobility move in the game faster than Sonic himself and Hero Acceleratle. Sonic’s combo damage is alright, not always amazing but due to his speed and frame data he can go off in advantage state at times and in certain matchups. Especially when it comes to his absurd edge guarding.

Sonic’s main weakness is how he can struggle to kill at times, fortunately he has just enough tools to get the kill with his edge guarding, forward smash 2 frame and reads, back throw on lighter characters, and now his Uair is a more consistent kill option. Up smash may be more useful as well after the buff. I don’t think Sonic is overrated he has exactly what Ultimate wants from him, and kill power is far from the most important trait in Ultimate, which is why Ganon and Little Mac are still awful, and why Pikachu, Mario, Diddy Kong, Non-Arsene Joker and Young Link are so good. Even if you pick a different example than Mac and ganon, someone with a good recovery, king dedede despite his kill power on top of a good recovery he’s still lacking what Ultimate wants, which is frame data and mobility. Incineroar has a pretty good recovery and good frame data+kill power but he lacks speed. It’s much easier and more consistent to get away with not having good kill power than any of the other attributes.
I do agree that speed is important in Ultimate and that :ultsonic: definitely has strong tools overall.

I do think through 2019 and very early 2020 he probably was underrated by most people, but I think since we've been stuck online, a lot of people have started arguing this character is a lot better than he is.

His tools are very threatening and can work on pretty much any character, but I think in a game where a lot of characters have strong punish games, people tend to underrate how nearly important the ability for some characters to intercept spindash and charge is. Characters who can interrupt his side-b and down-b and be heavily rewarded for doing so like :ultpikachu::ultluigi::ultsamus: are characters I can see posing a bit of a problem for him. However, these are all perfectly winnable matchups for him, they're just harder for him than most of the cast because they actually have good tools against his neutral as well as good punish games.

However, some characters don't have good options to intercept his side-b and down-b due to a lack of a long ranged grab, large safe hitboxes, or a decent projectile while others (mostly the characters very low on the tier list) can get overwhelmed by his CQC combined with Homing Attack and I think those are the characters Sonic does really well against.

Characters with lackluster ways to deal with his neutral are the characters most likely to get timed out by him which is why I think some characters being able to deal with spin dash and charge in neutral is important as it reduces the chances of this happening to them.

I also think he is a good counter against characters who rely on meter mechanics with a timer like :ultjoker::ultshulk: and to a lesser extent :ultcloud: (I think :ultwiifittrainer:'s projectile game and ability to ledge camp Sonic allows her to do better in the matchup than the rest of these timed buff characters do).

Don't get me wrong, I think Sonic is definitely solo-viable and he's very good, but I think that some people are overrating how good he actually is.
 
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Thinkaman

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I want to see a visualization on the Sonic uair fix; the details is that they added a fourth, small hitbox to hit 2 (Identical to the others) covering a slightly new area. It's hard to visualize exactly where, or guess how much this particular bit of extra coverage addresses the previous drops compared to smash 4.

Off the cuff, I'm a little skeptical that a single hitbox of this size will give the move the consistency people are talking about; probably just removes some of the more egregiously janky cases. Most effective fixes to multi-hit moves involve angle and KB tweaks to every initial hit, and/or significant size increases to the main end hits--this is neither.
 

The_Bookworm

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Before I post my Steve analysis, I got statistics on some of the character changes.

:ulticeclimbers: The damage and knockback taken for Nana used to be a multiplier of 1.05x. It has been lowered to 1.02x.
I would've personally liked it better if they forgone the multiplier altogether, but this is nice step-up.
:ultsonic: When they buffed dash attack's damage and endlag, they also stealth nerfed the shieldstun multiplier (1x -> 0.75x (clean); 1.57x -> 1.05x (late)), likely to compensate for what the increased damage would've done to shields.
:ultlucario: It was already mentioned before, but I will mention it here. Aura from 0%-65% are unchanged. From 65%-190%, the aura multiplier has increased from 1.6x -> 1.67x.
In addition to the aforementioned Lucario buffs, they fixed the infinite Extreme Speed grab invincibility glitch. It should function like every other up B at the ledge.
:ultshulk: The specific multiplier change to Shield is from 0.5x -> 0.6x.
For reference, the SSB4 Shield multiplier is 0.67x for damage and 0.78x for knockback, so still considerably lower than in SSB4.
:ultbowserjr: The armor of Clown Cart Dash has been increased from 6% -> 10.2%.
For reference, the K. Rool crown buff was from 6% -> 12%, but it is attached to a slow projectile move and not to a fast approach/recovery tool. As such, this is a considerable buff to the character as a whole.


They also fixed the projectile parry glitch:

Online arenas also got some good adjustments:

Raw Steve attribute stats:

That makes him the:
  • 75th-76th fastest walk speed (tied with Terry).
  • 76th fastest run speed.
  • The absolute slowest initial dash in the game.
  • 78th fastest air speed.
  • 62nd fastest fall speed.
  • 51st-55th heaviest character (tied with ICs, Lucario, Wolf, and Villager)
So overall, very lousy mobility stats, and one of the least mobile characters in the game, combined with his poor first jump.
He, at least to me, feels faster than what the stats say, but that might be due to his lightning fast frame data.
 

Lacrimosa

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Do we know how the blocks interact with teleport recoveries (that have a hitbox)?
I've played some games against Stave but was never brought into a difficult spot to recover from (guess people still try to figure out how to play Steve who seems pretty hard to learn). Didn't see clips on Twitter as well.
 
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Thinkaman

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Do we know how the blocks interact with teleport recoveries (that have a hitbox)?
I've played some games against Stave but was never brought into a difficult spot to recover from (guess people still try to figure out how to play Steve who seems pretty hard to learn). Didn't see clips on Twitter as well.
I did some limited testing.

Worth pointing out first that Steve doesn't seem to have much ability to force people low. He can't go deep off-stage at all, even though he is VERY comfortable going slightly off-stage. In my testing, we had to artificially set up these scenarios--not once did it happen organically.

Most characters go through blocks pretty well, including those with only a single hitbox like Lucina.

Palutena and Mewtwo bounce off. Zelda and Sheik can recover fine through a block on ledge--not sure how they interact with a lower ceiling of blocks in their way, and less sure how this situation would ever happen.

Still haven't tested Falcon/Ganon/Pit/DH/Olimar/Rosa. I have heard they destroy dirt blocks fine.
 

The_Bookworm

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I did some limited testing.

Worth pointing out first that Steve doesn't seem to have much ability to force people low. He can't go deep off-stage at all, even though he is VERY comfortable going slightly off-stage. In my testing, we had to artificially set up these scenarios--not once did it happen organically.

Most characters go through blocks pretty well, including those with only a single hitbox like Lucina.

Palutena and Mewtwo bounce off. Zelda and Sheik can recover fine through a block on ledge--not sure how they interact with a lower ceiling of blocks in their way, and less sure how this situation would ever happen.

Still haven't tested Falcon/Ganon/Pit/DH/Olimar/Rosa. I have heard they destroy dirt blocks fine.
How about it's interaction with tether recoveries, particularly the characters that solely rely on them like Ivysaur, Joker, Byleth, and Min Min?


Also, completely unrelated, but here is something amusing I found:
 

MrGameguycolor

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Okay, let's break these balance changes down:

-:ulticeclimbers:: The AI and recovery changes could be big, we'll have to wait to see, and every other change is welcomed.

-:ultlucario:: Aura's buff seems to notably matter if you can even live to higher percents, not much I add there.
However, a faster jab, D-Smash, and Extreme Speed recovery might speak better numbers for him...

TBH, never saw why he was low tier at all.

-:ultbowserjr:: Oh boy, you Jr. mains have something to look forward to.
Better side-b armor, strong kill moves, a faster D-Smash, and a slightly better Up-B for recovering and confirming...

IMO, the winner of the patch.

-:ultsimon::ultrichter:: Most of the knockback buffs are on sparingly used moves, so I can see these not leading to much in the long run.
But hey, less start-up on Up-Smash and better hitbox range for Uppercut is always nice.


-:ultsonic:: Fixing his inconsistencies are good, no problems there.
I would totally be down for buffing his normals and having him play more traditionally if they addressed his lame/camping areas like Spin Dash invincibility and such.
But they didn't do that...
So, that pretty much speaks for itself...

-:ultness: : This character had so much going against them receiving any improvements:


*High tier offline.
*Infamously annoying online.
*Lacked any noticeable internal problems.
*Top tier online.
*Relatively simple to pick up and play.


Yet with some luck of the dice roll, he actually got some help...
Why...

Ness was already good at killing and racking up damage.
All his buffed moves had viable, defined uses in his kit, and they didn't address any problematic flaws or fix anything that needed to be fixed...

I really wonder what the balance team was thinking...


Everyone else's changes are "whatever" to me.
Although it did feel like a slap in the face for :ultganondorf:, he would have appreciated fixes to Nair linking issues and non-clankable properties for his smash attacks + Wizard Foot.


This patch was the equivalent to Shrek The Third...
Not terrible on its own, but coming after the last entry which was so overwhelming good, it left a lot to be desired.
 

Rizen

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I played as Steve and fought a Lv9 CPU Steve with all my characters ( :ultyounglink: :ultkrool::ultlink::ultbylethf::ultganondorf::ultlucina::ultzss::ultwolf::ultridley:). Here's some first impressions:

Steve is a walling character. His quick attacks in Utilt, Uair and his mega man like jab that he can walk with all are very good at creating a wall of pain. If he hits you at low %s you're going to take about 40% damage before you can escape. Fortunately his abysmal mobility keeps this from being overpowered. Steve has slower but strong attacks for kills and isn't lacking on kill power. Smashes, D/F/Bair all are good for killing and Fair has a strong spike. However he has no real way to force interactions and might have trouble if he's down a stock. He doesn't seem to have any good kill throws. This all lends its self to a piranha plant like character who's quick at CQC but immobile.

His recovery is long, versatile and hard to intercept. Blocks are an interesting tactic. They're good at stopping recoveries with weak or no hitboxes but break easily and can't be used very far up or offstage; this keeps them from being OP. Standing on them gives Steve a great intercepting game near the stage but he can't go deep. Due to his terrible jumps Steve is not good at chasing you high above the stage either (like Falco or Greninja can). Blocks can save both Steve and the opponent from strong launches so that tosses things up. TNT is situational and too slow to be good outside advantage state. Minecarts are a good KO option and give Steve a burst option midair but don't armor through projectiles like Bowser Jr's kart or Wario's bike. Still Steve is so immobile that they'll be a very useful tool for him. It's easy to mash out of minecarts so they're not going to carry you far offstage for kills except at very high %s.

Steve will probably be strong vs characters with poor disjoint and poor/no projectile characters. He's very quick to attack and great at walling. On the other hand Steve lacks an answer to good projectile games. He has to stop and mine materials or craft which often leaves him open to being sniped. Crafting table does not block projectiles and blocks break quickly and expend resources. He can't shield himself with them as a long term strategy. With steve's terrible mobility and lack of a ranged projectile (not counting Dair, Dtilt and Dsmash), he has a terrible time if forced to approach. YL will probably have a strong MU vs him. As such I can see Steve being anywhere from upper mid tier to high tier but not top tier. He's not an overpowered character; how can he be with such horrid mobility? Steve might even end up being a counterpick character, especially against certain recoveries that can't power through his blocks.
 
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Krysco

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https://twitter.com/RaZe_SSB/status/1316234748977541120?s=20
This tweet goes over some of the recovery/block interactions. Main takeaway I find is that dirt blocks are basically worthless for blocking anyone yet the game will always have you use dirt blocks first, dirt is very easy to get on most stages and the only way I recall to get rid of dirt is by making blocks. The tweet doesn't go over tethers although from what I've read on Twitter, tethers destroy any blocks near the ledge and let the tethering character recover just fine so they're unaffected. As for Zelda specifically, she only has hitboxes on her up special at 2 points, the beginning and end so if the first hitbox doesn't break a block then I imagine her recovery distance will be shortened or her angle changed or something along those lines. Of course this isn't factoring in her aerials destroying blocks or any of her other specials, just going off the hypothetical 'what if Zelda had to recover towards blocks'.
 

StrangeKitten

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Damn, Steve's mobility stats are a gigantic yikes. Combine them with the fact that his up B is weirdly really bad at recovering low, and I'm having trouble seeing him as all that good. We'll see if Steve players can prove me wrong, though!
 

Ziodyne 21

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I know this was predicted before realese. But it seems that speedy characters that can easily apply lots of pressure of close and can keep you in disadvantage for ping can be a big problem for Steve. :ultfox::ultpikachu::ultinkling:are the beggiesg examples :ultmario::ultsheik::ultwario::ultzss::ultfalco:may also prove problematic. Wee have to see how good his recoverry actullay ends up being and and if Steve's surpisginly good frame data will be enough to help in such MU's.

Steve us looking to have an MU list even more polarizing than :ultminmin. Where if your character may do find has the tools to deal with there toolkit, nutty edgeguardong options tools and exploit their weaknesses. If they don't, then there right SOL
 

The_Bookworm

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After some testing, here are some of my observations with Steve.
  • The borders on which he can place blocks got heavily reduced from the presentation. He can go almost offscreen to the side in the presentation, but he can now go only 5 block distances from the edge of the stage before reaching the border. He can only build up to 2 block distances high from the top of Battlefield's platform. This means that camping with blocks isn't going to be nearly as strong as predicted, and it puts a strict limit on his recovery. It also makes Create Block nowhere near as good as a landing option as it is in the presentation version.
  • His recovery in general, while pretty good still, is not quite a good as we thought. Elytra's vertical distance is much more limited than expected. We are past the Brawl gliding days. The above-mentioned shorter limit on black
  • Tether recoveries, from my testing, straight up delete the blocks in their pathing, no matter the block strength. This ironically makes tether recoveries the best way of ignoring Create Block edgeguard attempts.
  • It actually costs wood to summon a Crafting Table to you via the shield + B method. Once you run out of wood, he then uses stone, then iron to summon it. Steve cannot use dirt to summon the Crafting Table. Still a very nice tool to circumvent opponents camping near the crafting table.
  • As we noted earlier, Steve's mobility is very low. However, Steve also seems to have the benefit of having very little animation on his actions, which can create the illusion of mobility (which is probably why we thought he was decently quick before release).
Now here is the great toolset that I noticed:
  • He has amazing frame data in his moves overall. A lot of his attacks have very little startup and endlag, with down tilt being the only normal that is a little on the slow side. The landing lag on his aerials is also rather high, although the endlag on them is so ridiculously low that that it is usually not that much of an issue.
  • Up smash is way better than expected. It turns out that it has a suc hitbox on front of him, while the KO power is much stronger than I expected. It can be easily comboed from up tilt, although up tilt into up air strings is more optimal for damage. Combined with its coverage above him and coming out on frame 8, this seems like a helpful tool.
  • Down air is a disgusting edgeguarding tool and move in general. Steve falls very fast on the anvil, he can cancel out of it by jumping, and the anvil itself is stupidly powerful. The only thing holding this move back is that is requires iron to use.
  • His grab is frame 13 with a pretty good amount of range. It doesn't seem to have too much recovery for a tether grab of its distance. It can be hard to time, but Steve's grab can also snipe opponents midair, especially offstage. Overall, Steve may potentially have the best tether grab in the game, which helps compliment his great OoS and low mobility.
  • He also possesses a great set of throws, rare for an Ultimate character. Forward throw has good base knockback while sending in a semi-spike angle. Up throw is a KO throw at higher percents, especially with rage. Back throw is... nothing worth noting. Down throw is a combo starter at low percents, while it deals 18% raw with an anvil.
  • Given Steve's low mobility, Minecart is a lot more helpful move than I thought initially, especially given that you can jump cancel it. It gives Steve a very helpful burst option on the ground to close the space if needed.
If this character had at least decent mobility, his toolkit may be borderline too overwhelming. However, his poor mobility is a low point for the character. However, he has amazing high points, such as a great toolkit for boxing out, edgeguarding, ledgetrapping, and more.
Camping on paper seems like an issue, which is overall, but Steve have ways to circumvent it:
  • If the opponent camps on the ground with projectiles, Steve can use Create Block to eat the projectiles, or use Minecart as a burst option. Note that jumping out of the Minecart turns the empty Minecart into a true command grab. It is easy to mash out of the Minecart, but Steve now has stage control.
  • If the character tries to jump above platforms to circle camp Steve... well Steve doesn't care. He is just going to mind his own business and mine/craft his tools. This is what makes the Crafting Table a pretty good tool to circumvent circle camping.
Additionally:
  • If the opponent tries to go for a bait-and-punish rushdown, so straight up rushdown to abuse Steve's poor mobility, well look out, because this slow character has amazing frame data. His moves would be SSB4 Cloud levels of spammable if they had good range. However, fast rushdown characters tend to have middling range themselves, while characters with great range tend to have lacking frame data to back it, so it isn't as good of a deal as it would otherwise. This is an aspect that makes Steve unique among the cast.

It is a bit early to call how good he is, especially a character with as much depth and complexity as Steve, but I overall, so far, have a very positive viewpoint on Steve and I am excited to see how far his players will push him.

I am a little annoyed that Redstone is not indicated anywhere on Steve's UI.

https://twitter.com/RaZe_SSB/status/1316234748977541120?s=20
This tweet goes over some of the recovery/block interactions. Main takeaway I find is that dirt blocks are basically worthless for blocking anyone yet the game will always have you use dirt blocks first, dirt is very easy to get on most stages and the only way I recall to get rid of dirt is by making blocks. The tweet doesn't go over tethers although from what I've read on Twitter, tethers destroy any blocks near the ledge and let the tethering character recover just fine so they're unaffected. As for Zelda specifically, she only has hitboxes on her up special at 2 points, the beginning and end so if the first hitbox doesn't break a block then I imagine her recovery distance will be shortened or her angle changed or something along those lines. Of course this isn't factoring in her aerials destroying blocks or any of her other specials, just going off the hypothetical 'what if Zelda had to recover towards blocks'.
This tweet was posted earlier in the thread. Edgeguarding with Create Block is strong, but not nearly as strong as theorized before his release.
 

Envoy of Chaos

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I’m not convinced that just being fast will be enough to deter Steve.

Pac-Man for example has the ability to spawn hydrant which functions as a small temporary wall that you need to either jump over or have a move to break it. Jumping over it isn’t ideal as now you need to land but thankfully it’s not very tall so faster fallers cant leap it quickly. It doesn’t haven’t much health so characters with a strong move they can quickly throw out without much commitment can flip it. And even with all the counteplay the move is vital to Pac Man’s ability to control stage and give him time to charge his bonus fruits.

Steve’s blocks function the same way since non dirt blocks don’t immediately break upon running into them this creates an obstacle that even the fastest character can’t just immediately get over. Oh but not like hydrant Steve can build a wall taller than a character can short hop over very quickly, that’s a big obstacle to get over and Steve will absolutely have all the time he needs to mine materials and prepare to cover your means of getting past his block wall.
 

Lacrimosa

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Seems like Meru think that Zelda runs Steve over but he hasn't fought a decent Steve, yet.
But the fact that a lot of stuff from Steve can be reflected (most notably the minecart) is a huge advantage in this MU. Also, if caught by the minecart, the Phantom doesn't fall apart like it usually does.
And yes, she probably can't prevent Steve from mining most of the time but it could be that she just is better at camping Steve out. But we'll have to see. It's the 1st day after all.
 

Rizen

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Camping on paper seems like an issue, which is overall, but Steve have ways to circumvent it:
  • If the opponent camps on the ground with projectiles, Steve can use Create Block to eat the projectiles, or use Minecart as a burst option. Note that jumping out of the Minecart turns the empty Minecart into a true command grab. It is easy to mash out of the Minecart, but Steve now has stage control.
  • If the character tries to jump above platforms to circle camp Steve... well Steve doesn't care. He is just going to mind his own business and mine/craft his tools. This is what makes the Crafting Table a pretty good tool to circumvent circle camping.
Creating blocks can temporarily block big charged shots but is overall ineffective against more expendable projectiles. Steve uses materials to create blocks which break very quickly and he loses stage control in doing so. There's nothing preventing YL from simply spamming fire arrows for example and they'll eventually hit him. It's a losing game for Steve.
Steve can be sniped out of his minecart. He can't use it to approach through projectiles, although jump>aerial minecart burst option can be good for getting over them.

Steve can mine if the opponent is platform camping above him but he's in a terrible position if they're trying to time him out. He has no way to get vertical distance quickly with his low jumps and Uair is a very weak attack. Timing out Steve is a big threat to him.
 

SwagGuy99

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Early thoughts on 3 of Steves matchups that I can potentially see being quite rough for him.

  • I can very easily see :ultfalco:being his worst matchup and will be shocked if it ends up being someone else. The only issue I can really see Falco having is that his recovery isn't great, but every other part of the matchup seems overwhelmingly in his favor.
    • His blaster can slowly chip away at blocks from a distance, prevent Steve from setting up minecarts, prevent him from gathering resources, etc.
    • He can reflect several of Steve's moves including d-tilt, minecart, d-smash, TNT, and his Anvil.
    • Falco's high jump height means that camping on the blocks isn't really going to be a viable option for Steve.
    • Steve's movement is so poor that if Falco has him in disadvantage, Steve will probably have a lot of trouble escaping as his options are either too short ranged or slow to combo break.
    • Falco's ability to play a pseudo rushdown style seems like it will be very strong against someone like Steve who seems to lack ways to deal with close up pressure.
  • :ultvillager: and :ultisabelle: being able to pocket certain moves of his seems quite strong against him as well. Not 100% sure if this prevents him from being able to summon more of those items, but if it does, that's actually huge in the matchup and likely means they'll beat him rather hard. If Steve can still summon more items even if they are pocketed, I can still see them doing well against him, particularly Villager as his camping ability with his projectiles might be strong enough to force Steve to approach in situations when he's not prepared to. If not, Villager still may be able to corner Steve where Villager can pressure him with f-air and b-air. Villager and Isabelle also both have hard to edgeguard recoveries that I don't think Steve will be able to easily mess with.
 
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Thinkaman

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I don't see hydrant as a good comparison to blocks. Hydrant is a scary threat--if you jump in with a typical SH aerial, all you will do is prime the situation to eat a hydrant to the face when PAC-MAN does literally anything to it in response. And even if you do nothing, he might f-smash or key it, or do other fruit tricks. The hydrant is just an instantaneous and threatening dilemma for the opponent.

Blocks are just... in the way. If Steve is camping on the other side, and you attack the blocks with an aerial to dispose of them, what is Steve gonna do? Spin dash you?


I think :ultjigglypuff: seems unusually good against Steve. All of his crazy Twitter combos are based on fall speed, and Steve needs time to himself. Puff is just constantly beelining towards you in the air without a reason not to, which Steve cannot offer.
 

Envoy of Chaos

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I don't see hydrant as a good comparison to blocks. Hydrant is a scary threat--if you jump in with a typical SH aerial, all you will do is prime the situation to eat a hydrant to the face when PAC-MAN does literally anything to it in response. And even if you do nothing, he might f-smash or key it, or do other fruit tricks. The hydrant is just an instantaneous and threatening dilemma for the opponent.

Blocks are just... in the way. If Steve is camping on the other side, and you attack the blocks with an aerial to dispose of them, what is Steve gonna do? Spin dash you?


I think :ultjigglypuff: seems unusually good against Steve. All of his crazy Twitter combos are based on fall speed, and Steve needs time to himself. Puff is just constantly beelining towards you in the air without a reason not to, which Steve cannot offer.
Fair points on hydrant, it does offer an immediate threat that blocks don’t. There is less Steve can immediately do with a block wall than Pac can with a hydrant but I do think his blocks still offer some protections when he wants to mine or just slow the opponent down. Just them being in the way affords him time to breath which should be important in keeping those faster characters off him constantly.

I don’t know I just see there being a lot he can do with clever block placement on stage. Just being able to spawn (temporary) platforms just seems like it has a lot of potential for all kinds of tricks.
 
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StrangeKitten

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:ultjoker:is fast with an insane fastfall. It wouldn't surprise me if Eiha doesn't do much to the blocks, but Gun can be used in a multitude of ways to get around them. Blocks aren't a problem for tethers and I doubt they're much of a problem for Wings of Rebellion since Pit's recovery didn't seem to have issues with them. Joker can Rebel's Guard and Makarakarn a lot of Steve's stuff. He'll have to be careful of Steve's fair spike, but his edgeguarding game against Steve will be really good. Likely a losing MU for Steve
 
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meleebrawler

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https://twitter.com/RaZe_SSB/status/1316234748977541120?s=20
This tweet goes over some of the recovery/block interactions. Main takeaway I find is that dirt blocks are basically worthless for blocking anyone yet the game will always have you use dirt blocks first, dirt is very easy to get on most stages and the only way I recall to get rid of dirt is by making blocks. The tweet doesn't go over tethers although from what I've read on Twitter, tethers destroy any blocks near the ledge and let the tethering character recover just fine so they're unaffected. As for Zelda specifically, she only has hitboxes on her up special at 2 points, the beginning and end so if the first hitbox doesn't break a block then I imagine her recovery distance will be shortened or her angle changed or something along those lines. Of course this isn't factoring in her aerials destroying blocks or any of her other specials, just going off the hypothetical 'what if Zelda had to recover towards blocks'.
TNT will use a lot of dirt and stone to make if you have them, otherwise it's a lesser but significant amount of iron.
 

Wigglerman

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I wonder if his ledge traps might be scarier than we think. If he can place blocks mid air, just block off your choice of routes...and though he can't place blocks near the stage wall...so he just anvils down on that gap. o.O
 

Anomilus

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Have to rescind some of my previous statements regarding Ridley.


The change to his Wing Blitz move is indeed a nerf. A very minor nerf, but it's a nerf. And when you include the "Flurry Attack neutralized" change, that's two nerfs for Ridley...

...I'm not sure they know what to do with this character anymore. Everyone's getting better and better, and all they can do is find the weirdest things on him to tweak. He may not be bad, but that's what's so frustrating: He's sooo close to being better than Mid Tier, and it feels like Ridley mains are being toyed with. >_<
 

Ziodyne 21

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:ultzss: may be another pretty bad MU for Steve

She has the extreme mobility and jump height to get past any blocks Steve can place.
Several different ways she can recover onstage, including flip-jump a tether rrecovery . So she can get around block edguarding better than most characters .

Speaking of flip-jump .That movies is the bane of poor mobility characters that have no way to chase her down and try to gain advantage again.(Hence why :ultluigi: arguabally worst MU is ZSS).. at this point Steve is not looking like an exception . But I could be wrong

Steve does have overall better CQC frame data than ZSS. Plus shecan be pretty susppectavle to those twitter combos due to her lightweight and fall speed. But still it looks like ZSS has a good advantage
 
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