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Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

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Krysco

Aeon Hero
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I imagine teleport recoveries would be affected by the blocks just as non-teleport recoveries are. They don't actually teleport your character from point A to B but rather have you go invisible and just move you along a linear path, a path that can be stopped by walls, floors and ceilings just like any other recovery (which is why Unova's sides screw over teleport recoveries, they don't hug the wall in it's entirety like other recoveries do.)

As for Steve's resources being based on stage, it doesn't seem it'll matter that much for competitive play:
https://twitter.com/Ruben_dal/status/1312490173138038785?s=20
Smashville and Town & City will give you more wood, Lylat will give you more iron and in a reply below that tweet it's mentioned that Yoshi's Story is Danbouru or cardboard. No idea what that will mean for Steve but the rest of the legal stages are all 'brick' so there's not much variety.
 

The_Bookworm

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 10, 2018
Messages
3,230
Here is my analysis on Steve. Remember, Sakurai did say that the footage used is still relatively early in development.

Something to note: we have very little information on the character's damage output. I think this is important specifically for the basic sword swipe attacks.

Standard Buttons:

Jab / Forward Tilt / Neutral Air (Sword)
: The standard sword swipe.
  • Comes out on frame 4, which is average for a sword jab, but very fast for a neutral air. It is pretty fast, to the point where you can essentially machine gun this move, and can be used in the air. It has limited reach, but Steve runs quickly doing this.
  • However, it seems to have very little hitstun, and I doubt this move is really worth wasting resources on in higher percents unless it is a get-off-me-tool. This an interesting move to look at when the character drops.
Forward Smash (Sword): Comes out on frame 12. Seems pretty strong in terms of KO power. I do see with this move and normal sword swings, is that they seem to be vulnerable to low profiling, so that is something to note.

Ledge Get-Up Attack (Sword): I am personally worried about this move, as there may be a chance that we are going to get a pre-patch Banjo situation, in which the move whiffs on opponents inside of Steve, as Steve is put a good amount of distance before swiping.

Get-Up Attack (Sword): Steve does seem to have a pretty good get-up attack with speed and reach.

Up Tilt / Up Air (Axe): The standard axe swipe.
  • Comes out on frame 6 and has little endlag.
  • As an up tilt, this move is pretty good. It combos easily into itself and up smash in low percents, and has amazing coverage over Steve. This may be an important tool for him, especially due to his laughably weak jump height.
  • As an up air, I am rather mixed. It is very fast with good horizontal reach, and its speed makes it easy to land laglessly. However, the move in lower power levels seems very weak and the move has very limited vertical reach.
Dash Attack (Axe): A running pickaxe attack that comes out on frame 8 and propels Steve very far forward. It does some endlag, so this move seems to be punishable especially by quick OoS options.

Forward Air / Back Air (Pickaxe): A pickaxe swipe on the according direction.
  • Forward air comes out in frame 8, while back air comes out in frame 12.
  • Forward air is a meteor smash in a similar vein to Mario. The reveal trailer does show that forward air does have considerable landing lag. In comparison to Mario's, Steve's forward air is much faster in startup and endlag, although Mario does have his combo routes into it.
  • Back air is simply a dummy strong KO option, emphasis on it coming out on the slow frame 12. Back air seems to have about 18 frames of landing lag, which is pretty laggy. You can full hop aerial and recover fast enough to land laglessly, so that is useful to know.
  • Both, especially forward air, seem to be both useful options, especially in a full hop.
  • However, both of them having very high landing lag does limit them quite a bit, in a similar vein to Hero's aerials. At least Steve's aerials have significantly less startup and endlag than Hero's, so Steve has that going for him.
Forward Air / Back Air (Sword): If he uses his standard sword attack, and then doesn't leave enough window to do a forward air / back air (pickaxe), he will use a sword in that direction instead. It seems to be simply the pickaxe versions but with more of the normal sword swing properties. It will be faster than the pickaxe versions, but much less potent when it hits.

Up smash (Magma Block): Steve places a magma block above him, then breaks it after some time, with the breaking hit being the launcher.
  • It comes out on frame 8. For reference, Mario's up smash comes out on frame 9.
  • This move is very fast in startup for an up smash, lingers for a really long time, and covers the area directly above Steve better than almost every other up smash in the game. He can also combo up tilt into up smash, mimicking Olimar's up smash shenanigans.
  • However, while the move technically has very low endlag, the duration is so high that it leaves Steve vulnerable for a very long time. The move, at least according to the presentation, looks very weak for an up smash.
  • Still, this moves seems very useful as an anti-air and combo finisher, as well as covering the platforms due to Steve's weak first jump height. However, it is very specialized move.
Down smash (Lava Bucket): Steve deploys two pools of lava next to him. It comes out on frame 9, and the second pool of lava appears on frame 27 (18 frames after the first lava pool). The first pool of lava expires before the second pool of lava is deployed. It is quick for its range, and it sends at a disgusting launch angle for edgeguards. Overall, a pretty good down smash.

Down tilt (Flint & Steel): Steve uses his Flint & Steel to produce a small fire pillar.
  • It comes out in frame 12, with the flame pillar reaching it's apex at frame 14. The flame is affected by gravity.
  • The move is rather slow for a tilt and Steve will be stuck in lag during most of the flame pillar duration.
  • It also seems like it has a blindspot on front of Steve, so using this up close is a bad idea.
  • That being said, it has good range, and combined with Anvil and Create Block, this move can a deadly piece in Steve's edgeguarding and ledgetrapping games.
  • Be noted that the move duration isn't nearly as long as PK Fire or Arcfire.
Down air (Anvil): Steve falls when riding on anvil.
  • This move consumes one piece of iron.
  • The anvil is deployed on frame 12, and begins falling at frame 17.
  • The sheer speed and power of the anvil is astounding, and most importantly, Steve can jump out of the anvil partway through as long as he has a midair jump. The anvil then lingers afterwards like Pac-Man's Hydrant.
  • This is a deadly tool for both edgeguarding and landing.
  • All this power comes from the usage of iron, so if you don't have any, he has no down air. This is still a very useful tool, and worth consuming iron for in the right situations.
Grab (Fishing Rod): Steve uses a fishing rod.
  • It is similar to Isabelle's, except it is a true grab instead of a hit grab, so it doesn't have the crippling weakness of being shieldable. It may not have quite as much range as Isabelle's, but it much faster in startup (frame 13 vs frame 21) while still covering a good amount of range.
  • It comes out on frame 13, which is pretty good considering how much range the move has. For reference, Lucas', YLink's, and TLink's grab is frame 12, with only about half the range as Steve's. It can also snipe opponents in the air thanks to its trajectory.
  • This could be a strong contender for the best tether grab in the game. This is what Isabelle's grab should've been.
Forward Throw (Piston) / Down Throw (Anvil): None of his KO throws seems notable, at least until we see which percent they KO at.
  • His forward throw, at the very least, launches in a semi-spike angle without DI.
  • His down throw is immediately his most notable throw, as it seems to be a pretty good combo throw, which is getting rare these days. Since it uses the anvil, it does consume one piece of iron, but the anvil-less version does still seem to combo, so that is pretty good. Only damage is sacrificed without the anvil.
Side special (Minecart): Steve deploys a minecart, hops on it, then repeatedly places rails on front of him to move himself forward.
  • The cart requires iron to make, while each part of the rails uses up the other materials (starting with the least valuable to the most).
  • The minecart hitbox becomes active on frame 18.
  • Steve can stay in the cart for as long as he can, and can jump out of it at any time after he starts moving.
  • He has access to the powered rail. With gold and redstone at Steve's disposal, he can go instantly fast at any time, decreasing reaction time while boosting it's power.
  • The cart has difficulty going up slopes and slides on the ground to a halt without any rails. The cart then lingers afterwards.
  • By jumping out of the cart, Steve can trap opponents inside for a follow-up or to roll them offstage. We don't know exactly how easy it is to escape out of the cart, but the footage shows that it is fairly easy to escape. When the cart is by itself, you can hit it to make it disappear.
  • In terms of overall utility, it can be nice tool to catch opponents off-guard, especially with the powered rails, but I think it consumes too much material to be overly useful, although it has its place in his moveset.
Up special (Elytra): Steve equips himself with the Elytra, then uses a firework rocket to zoom with the sky.
  • The firework rocket ignites on frame 20, before Steve moves.
  • This move is functionally similar to Brawl's gliding, but the Elytra breaks down with time, so it is much more limited than Brawl's gliding.
  • Landing on the stage while the Elytra is still active endures approximately 23 frames of landing lag. Not a crazy amount of lag, but enough for it to be readily punishable.
  • The move also has an upwards variation where he travels a decent distance upwards.
  • The move has a hitbox only at the beginning when the firework rocket ignites.
  • This seems like an incredibly versatile recovery tool. It is currently unknown the precise amount of durability it has.
Down special (TNT): Steve uses wood or stone to place a TNT block on front of him.
  • It takes a long time before it detonates by itself, but explodes as you hit it.
  • It explodes almost instantaneously when hit with fire.
  • It hits both Steve and the opponent, and the explosion is very powerful.
  • Steve can use redstone by holding down special in order to create a circuit, then put a pressure plate to explode it instantaneously. The one who presses the pressure plate will take less knockback, and it can be placed right next to the TNT box to create a trap.
  • It is an overall pretty good tool for pressure, traps, and ledgetrapping.


Upgrade / Block Mechanic:

Crafting Table (Craft)
: The crafting table is spawned instantly at the start of the match, and it technically is in the background. Using neutral special on the ground next to a crafting table will interact with it, allowing Steve to use collected materials to upgrade his weapons.
  • Hitting it will eventually break it apart, although it takes only about 5 seconds for another one to respawn.
  • As this is a tool to repair and upgrade basic tools, this is an essential move.
  • However, the sauce of this move comes in the fact that you can summon it to Steve's position anytime by shield + special, like with Inkling's recharge ink. This is huge! With the ability to summon it to your position, it forces the opponent to approach Steve, or else he will be free to upgrade/repair his basic tools. It, alongside Create Block, also halts camping, as the opponent cannot hold position on the crafting table to bait Steve into approaching.
Neutral special (Mine): This is where Steve uses a shovel, axe, or pickaxe to mine the terrain on front of him. You can still mine without a weapon, but it will decrease your mining speed.
  • The speed in which you mine is determined by the terrain, with the order from fastest to slowest being dirt > wood > stone > iron. As such, mining from a purely iron surface isn't always the best tactic, as it will drain your resources more quickly.
  • What you get from mining is completely pre-determined, and it solely depends on the surface mined. After the whole Hero dilemma the first month he was released, it seems that Nintendo is trying their best to limit/remove RNG. We have some idea on what we get off of mining, but we will wait till the character gets released for a definite list.
  • On a side note, THANK THE DEV TEAM for making each Battlefield/Omega stage yield the same mine results. We just dodged a bullet in terms of Battlefield/Omega stage inconsistencies.
Neutral special (Create Block): Now this move is where all the sauce happens. Steve places a block below him.
  • The block in question breaks overtime, and can be broken via hitting it or jumping under it (we playing Super Mario Bros here). The durability of the block depends on material used, with higher staged materials being more durable (unless it is gold).
  • The move will eat up the resources from the least valuable blocks to the most. This means that you must use up all your resources in order to reach the blocks
  • This move has some nasty applications, with offstage being the nastiest. It can block opponents from certain recovery angles, especially if the recovery in question lacks a decent hitbox and/or puts you into freefall. However, Steve can also attack as if grounded when on top of a block. Conversely, the opponent can do that too, but the blocks don't really last that long for the opponent to take advantage of this.
  • However, the true nastiness of the move comes from above. This move may singlehandely give Steve the best disadvantage in the game. When you are above, you can place a block to mixup your landing and stall out, then you have numerous mixups (like using Anvil). You can also use this move to support your recovery, which paired with Elytra, gives Steve a potentially strong recovery, unless you are launched too far away from the stage.
  • There is a limit to how far within the stage boundaries you can place a block, and the blocks touching the boundary breaks very quickly.
  • It is currently unknown if standing on the block will give your double jump back.
  • Standing perfectly still on the block will allow the block to eat up projectiles, unless the projectile does not hit the block at all.
  • I personally don't think assembling a wall with this move will be that good, given how the process of building a wall of blocks is, as well as simply it burning up your resources quickly.
  • This is overall an incredible tool to their arsenal. I think the move is a bit more limited than some people claims, at least offensively, but it is amazing defensively as a recovery and landing mixup, and may make Steve's disadvantage state strong.
  • Something to very important to note: Sakurai himself says "I don't know if it'll go that easily in the final product, but at any rate you can see the possibilities." This seems to be a move very susceptible to change from the build they are showing, so the potency of the move may change at the final release. At the very least, this move looks promising.
Material Gauge: The meter above Steve's damage meter gives you an indication on how much resources you have, and how much of a certain resource you have.
  • From the left to right: dirt > wood > stone > iron. Least valuable to most valuable.
  • Iron has a limit of 8 before the gauge moves increases. Using the iron from there lower the gauge one piece at a time.
  • Gold and diamond acts independently from the gauge, and flashes when it is ready to craft a tool.
  • It is very possible for the material gauge to be completely void of any material, which is important to note.
  • The ratio aspect of the gauge is very complicated, thus more time in the lab is required for this move.


Material Mechanic:

No Material
:
  • Without material, Steve cannot upgrade or restore his basic tools. It also disables his Anvil, Minecart, TNT, and Create Block.
Dirt / Miscellaneous Blocks:
  • You cannot use these materials to upgrade/repair his basic tools.
  • They are only used for Minecart and Create Block, in which they are very good fuel/resource to burn.
Wood (Stage 1):
  • The weakest (tied with gold) and second-least durable of the weapons.
  • You want to upgrade your basic tools out of this as soon as possible.
  • It is a good resource to burn for Steve's Minecart and Create Block, and is required for TNT alongside stone.
Stone (Stage 2):
  • The midway point for power and durability.
  • Required for TNT alongside wood.
  • A good substitution for iron if you want to use iron for other aspects of Steve's moveset.
  • As such, burning stone for Minecart and Create Block is not recommended.
Iron (Stage 3):
  • The second strongest in terms of both power and durability.
  • As diamond is appear infrequently, iron is common enough to the point where you will see this often.
  • It is also used in a lot of Steve's other moves aside from his basic tools. His down air and side B requires it, while it boosts his down throw.
  • You need 4 pieces of iron in order to upgrade to an iron tool. This is so far the only material whose material requirement to upgrade has been officially confirmed.
  • This is arguably his most valuable and versatile resource. It makes the slower mining in iron surfaces worthwile.
Gold (Stage 4):
  • The weakest (tied with wood) and least durable of the bunch.
  • Gold acts independently from the Material Meter, appearing as a gold ingot symbol next to the Material Meter.
  • Gold weapons makes their already typically fast frame data even faster. The standard sword swipe, for example, now comes out in frame 3 and recovers even faster. Two gold swipes is about as fast as a single swipe with any other stage.
  • It is one component, alongside redstone, of boosting Steve's Minecart.
  • Overall, one of the more situational materials that can come in handy in certain times. You will probably be more happy with iron overall though.
Diamond (Stage 5):
  • The strongest and most durable of the bunch.
  • The diamond acts independently from the Material Meter, appearing as a diamond symbol next to the Material Meter.
  • Something extremely important about diamond: everything powers up all at once. Once you have access to diamond, all of Steve's weapons upgrade to stage 5. Diamond is essentially Steve's "GO" meter of the character.
  • Diamonds will appear eventually on every stage as you mine, so while getting this may be somewhat stage dependent, it isn't that bad to get.
  • Diamonds isn't useful for anything else another than bringing all of Steve's weapons to max level, so you only need to worry about that.
Redstone:
  • One of the resources that you mine out.
  • The redstone acts independently from the Material Meter. However, for some odd reason, they are not indicated under the material UI like gold and diamond does. This is a very odd design choice and I personally hope they change this for the future.
  • It is one component, alongside gold, of boosting Steve's Minecart.
  • You can use redstone to create a circuit for TNT. This is, in my opinion, the best use for redstone, as it gives TNT some deadly trapping capabilities.


Movement / Mobility Specs:
  • It is relatively hard to tell how fast/slow the character is. From what I can tell, the character seems to have about average ground and air mobility. It is a nice breath of fresh air, considering that most DLC characters up to this point has to deal with an aspect of poor mobility. Banjo's, Byleth's, and Min Min's poor air mobility is a striking highlight.
  • Here is one of Steve's biggest weaknesses highlighted by the presentation: his grounded full hop is by far the worst in the game, not being high enough to cover the Battlefield platforms (by extension: all legal stage platforms). This makes the character vulnerable to platform camping. However, thanks to Create Block and Crafting Table, the character has ways to force approaches, rather than Little Mac who has to approach the enemy due the lack of anything to force approaches.
  • Weight is currently unknown.

Overall Strengths:
  • This character possesses amazing startup frames in his moves, especially for a character with a disjoint. Endlag with each of his moves are also rather minimal. As an end result, Steve's frame data is overall very good.
  • The character doesn't seem to be that slow in terms of mobility. It seems rather average, or even above-average, across the board.
  • The character's anti-air capabilities, especially with a weapon on hand, seems very good, thanks to the speed of these tools.
  • He appears to have a very potent grab, potentially the best tether grab in the game thanks to its immense reach, being nearly double the size (or even straight up double the size) of Lucas', YLink's, and TLink's grab while only being one frame slower. It can also grab opponents midair thanks to the fact that it shares similar physics to Isabelle's Fishing Rod, while not being crippled by the hit-grab mechanic.
  • It is unknown if his throws can KO at a reasonable percent, but the possibility is there. However, he has a great combo throw in down throw, made even better if iron is available.
  • Great KO potential and potentially great damage output with higher leveled basic tools, and even other tools like Anvil, Lava Bucket, and TNT.
  • Great ledgetrapping thanks to TNT mindgames and setups. How well Flint & Steel and Lava Bucket interacts with ledges has yet to be known, but there is a possibility that they serve well for that as well.
  • Very good edgeguarding thanks to Flint & Steel, Anvil, and Create Block, making it hard for certain characters (particularly linear ones with a poor/no hitbox) to make it back.
  • Great recovery. Thanks to Create Block and Elytra, Steve has many, many ways on making it back on stage. He may have a bit of trouble recovering if sent too far, due to the boundary limit on Create Block and durability on Elytra, but it is still a very potent recovery.
  • Potentially the best disadvantage state in the game. I already covered why his recovery is pretty dang good. However, thanks to Create Block and Anvil, he has many, many ways of mixing up his landing, which is, in my opinion, where the strengths of Create Block is truly put to use.

Overall Weaknesses:
  • While Steve's frame data is overall very good, he does have a few attacks that are rather laggy. The landing lag of forward and back aerials is the biggest and most glaring example.
  • His down tilt being slow doesn't entirely help, and the blindspot can make Steve's boxing game rather awkward, especially once we have the data on how safe his standard sword swing is on-hit and on-shield.
  • Due to the way the character attacks, there are certain areas where Steve's attacks have issues covering. Diagonal above and diagonal below is the biggest ones. While his up tilt has amazing coverage on its own, it can be easily outreached by characters like Shulk, Link, and Ike.
  • Steve's overall power is weak in lower levels, with his standard sword swipes having very little hitstun. It is unknown if this applies with higher levels of weapons, but it is something worth noting.
  • The character has to constantly deal with durability. Unlike Robin, who only has certain ways to help alleviate this issue, Steve can summon a crafting table wherever he wants, so the issue isn't as glaring, but it can come back to bite him.
  • The character's reach, in general, is limited, especially on front of him.
  • OoS can be awkward if Steve is facing the opposite direction of the opponent, as he doesn't really have a fast option for behind him, aside from the weak sword version of back air (which potentially puts Steve in a good amount of lag).
  • Extremely low first jump, the lowest in the game. This heavily limits the character ability to chase opponents jumping over platforms. The character, however, does have many ways to force approaches, isn't always in dire need of approaching, and has Create Block as support, so platform camping isn't nearly an issue with him as with characters like Little Mac.

Overall First Impressions:

  • This is going to be a very difficult character to pin down in terms of his place in the meta.
  • Steve has a moveset and mechanics that is completely unique from everyone else. Amazing that unique characters are still being spawned when they are almost 80 characters in the game. He is essentially an alien invader to the game, and dissecting on how the character interacts with the characters and the meta will take quite a bit of time.
  • Steve is an incredibly complex character. Given that Smash Bros typically tries to streamline character mechanics and movesets, which is why Hero's Command Selection is brings up spells randomly, rather than a menu-ing mechanic like RPGs typically work, Steve adds another new dimension of complexity. With his unique moveset and resource mechanic, this character requires IQ and management levels beyond even Pac-Man's levels.
  • As such, this is a character whose viability cannot be determined on the first week of his release. Heck, not even first month, or even the next several months. There is a reason why it took until 2018 for SSB4 Pac-Man's results to blossom: characters as complex as Steve requires a really long time for their metagames to truly flesh out.
  • My above point applies to counterplay as well. Remember when we all thought that Hero was a great character? Remember how popular Hero was for the first few weeks of his release, only to have extremely minimal reps and results in high, even mid-level play? The strangest, most off-beat characters requires time for counterplay.
  • That being said, Steve is no where near as flawed moveset-wise or design-wise as Hero. Hero is plagued with stiff air mobility, terrible frame data overall, middling range-at-best on his faster moves, reliance on MP and RNG, and a linear recovery without Zoom. Steve, in the other hand, while he has notable issues himself, has ways to circumvent them, in a similar vein to Min MIn, while his strengths lie on the more important aspects of a character, such as frame data, disadvantage, and deadly set-ups.
  • Overall, I think when fully developed, Steve can turn out to be a very potent character, only on the right hands though. Those who like to play characters like Pac-Man and Hero will find Steve at home, but it will take the most dedicated, quick-thinking players to push Steve to his full potential.

P.S. This character low-key has one of the most BM Final Smashes of all time. The man eats at your death.
P.P.S. No Samsora, you cannot simply mash buttons with this character. :p


Stand aside Pika!
ESAM's elongated screech... I think we found a new meme. LMAO

However, Pika could've easily recovered low. I could see this move screw over certain no hitbox, linear recoveries, especially if magnet hands treats them unkindly.

RIP :ultdk::ultdoc::ultganondorf::ulticeclimbers::ultincineroar::ultlittlemac::ultsimon::ultrichter: against a confident Steve. (Emotes eventually)
As long as the recovery move has a hitbox on them, they should be fine. :ultdk::ultdoc::ultincineroar: will be perfectly fine in that regard, although anvil can be annoying (especially for Doc), although Steve must decide to burn away something as valuable as iron to do so.
It is trouble with these :ultganondorf::ulticeclimbers:. The former of which is because the move's hitbox comes at the end of the up B. The latter of which is because they have a notorious issue where if you intentionally get hit with their up B, Popo simply dies.

The block mechanic seems to be a great edgeguard move, but to what extent is currently unknown. There are various factors, such as how much resources are required, which recovery option Steve chooses to cover, or how easy it is to break the block with a given recovery move.

Someone pointed out that he was shown mining on SV and it counted as a wooden surface primarily giving him wood blocks. He needs iron to use a lot of his moves like side b iirc from the presentation if he isn’t able to get a lot of iron or other types of blocks due to the stage he is on that will absolutely hammer his viability on certain stages.

I wonder if this was accounted for when hazards are turned off giving him access to other materials. Actually I’m sure this was accounted for as they made that change to give him all types of materials on BF and Omega variants of stages but if it wasn’t? Steve’s stage choices become quite limited in our current stage list, but this is again dependent on what each legal stage is treated as. If SV is wood it’s safe to assume T&C is wood also. Lylat is definitely iron and maybe Kalos as well?
Good points.
Smashville and T&C seems to be problematic in a resource collecting perspective, although the character collects resources fast on wooden stages.
T&C, in particular, seems like an auto-ban to me, since the platform positions gives Steve the most trouble in dealing with platform camping out of all the legal stages.
However, all the other legal stages seems perfectly fine, so I don't think stage counterpicking will as big of an issue as we think.
It certainly not as polarizing as Little Mac, since Steve has many ways to force approaches in his crafting table, whereas Little Mac has to approach you.
 
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MrGameguycolor

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As long as the recovery move has a hitbox on them, they should be fine. :ultdk::ultdoc::ultincineroar: will be perfectly fine in that regard, although anvil can be annoying (especially for Doc), although Steve must decide to burn away something as valuable as iron to do so.
It is trouble with these :ultganondorf::ulticeclimbers:. The former of which is because the move's hitbox comes at the end of the up B. The latter of which is because they have a notorious issue where if you intentionally get hit with their up B, Popo simply dies.
Oh, there's way more to that.
Steve can stand on the blocks and gain access to his grounded options.
That includes his D-Tilt and he showed how rough that will be to deal with.

The blocks won't just be blocking you, Steve himself will too.

Not considering every other move's potential.

-Air-Blocks > Teather Grab > F-Throw
-Air-Blocks > Up-Smash (Magma)
-Air-Blocks > Down-Smash (Lava)
-Air-Blocks > Rapid Sword Swing

You get the idea.

When Steve mains optimize this, it'll likely be hell for those characters to come back.
This character's skill and creative ceiling is the sky's limit, and these guys :ultdk: :ultdoc::ultganondorf::ulticeclimbers::ultincineroar::ultlittlemac::ultsimon::ultrichter: are gonna see the worst of it.
 
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Nobie

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I'm looking forward to seeing how the Steve vs Cloud matchup plays out. I predict it will be mutually painful.

Both benefit from camping, but which is the better reward, mining materials or Limit?

Cloud will likely smother Steve onstage, but offstage he's in trouble in ways he wouldn't be against other characters.

For that matter, what about Steve vs Snake or vs Duck Hunt? What the heck is that weapon interaction even gonna look like?
 

Krysco

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Quick follow up to my last post but apparently that list was slightly wrong. Here's the correct list for the legal stages:
https://twitter.com/Ruben_dal/status/1312597526902722560?s=20
Only real difference I can see is the addition that for whatever reason, the edges of Lylat are different from the rest of the stage and instead of 'brick', the term is 'basic'. Same type as all the Omega and Battlefield variants of stages. Also in a reply, Yoshi's Story was brought up again. The floor is 'cardboard' and the walls and platforms are 'basic' and if you turn hazards on then Randall is 'cloud'. No idea how cardboard or cloud would affect the mining of resources.
 

Rocketjay8

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Someone pointed out that he was shown mining on SV and it counted as a wooden surface primarily giving him wood blocks. He needs iron to use a lot of his moves like side b iirc from the presentation if he isn’t able to get a lot of iron or other types of blocks due to the stage he is on that will absolutely hammer his viability on certain stages.

I wonder if this was accounted for when hazards are turned off giving him access to other materials. Actually I’m sure this was accounted for as they made that change to give him all types of materials on BF and Omega variants of stages but if it wasn’t? Steve’s stage choices become quite limited in our current stage list, but this is again dependent on what each legal stage is treated as. If SV is wood it’s safe to assume T&C is wood also. Lylat is definitely iron and maybe Kalos as well?
In the review, we see Steve getting iron from wood in the minecraft stage so it means he can get iron from town and city. I'm not sure what this means for his TNT, Does it consume wood too?
 
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SKX31

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In the review, we see Steve getting iron from wood in the minecraft stage so it means he can get iron from town and city. I'm not sure what this means for his TNT, Does it consume wood too?
It was dirt / stone + redstone for the fuse / pressure plate.

Which makes TNT quite interesting since dirt's otherwise going to be used for the blocks. And one might have to prioritize the redstone for the fuse or for the minecart.
 

FruitLoop

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Steve is definitely looking like a high/top tier in my eyes and I certainly wouldn't be suprised if from a year from now he becomes the best character in the game due to how many sheer options he has. Though I do want to note that another issue with steve may be his lanky hurtbox, he RARELY hurtbox shifts and his hurt animations dont make him move much meaning that he likely will get stuck in a lot of confirms if he's not allowed to use blocks and a lot of multi-hit aerials can likely phase through blocks and hit Steve. His disadvantage looks solid but probably nothing great, it's basically just better Snake disadvantage (which imo even with Snake having on paper a really really good disadvantage state it ends up being quite bad).
 

Rocketjay8

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I'm looking forward to seeing how the Steve vs Cloud matchup plays out. I predict it will be mutually painful.

Both benefit from camping, but which is the better reward, mining materials or Limit?

Cloud will likely smother Steve onstage, but offstage he's in trouble in ways he wouldn't be against other characters.

For that matter, what about Steve vs Snake or vs Duck Hunt? What the heck is that weapon interaction even gonna look like?
That's if Steve can get around Cloud's larger hitboxes. If he can't he's going to have a hell of a time getting Cloud offstage in the first place. That also includes other Disjointed characters like Ike, Chrom, Lucina, Min Min, Corrin, etc.
 

FruitLoop

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That's if Steve can get around Cloud's larger hitboxes. If he can't he's going to have a hell of a time getting Cloud offstage in the first place. That also includes other Disjointed characters like Ike, Chrom, Lucina, Min Min, Corrin, etc.
Do keep in mind that if Steve is block camping as he's getting his tools setup there will be added hitlag towards hitting the block which can leave the opponent vulnerable to steve's grab which likely has a combo throw and multiple kill throw (AND a forward throw that sends low which is SUPER good vs a matchup like Cloud).

Steve will still likely have a frame 4 nair and jab and running jab/ftilt to constest with Cloud's generally solid frame data while he still has a bunch of solid lingering hitboxes (Cloud can't just fullhop Fair on Steve unless he wants to eat an upsmash or uptilt string) to also likely make steve threatening. Steve having actual frame data and a reason to not approach cloud is certainly helpful. I think due to steve's general safety and since he can just use blocks in disadvantage to stall out and bait cloud into up-airing him or make the cloud player have to constantly guess is HUGE given how cloud now really has to only play to consistently win neutral to kill off steve since he certainly cannot edge guard him and Steve has actual contestable frame data to prevent cloud from mashing willy nilly.

I think this alongside the fact that cloud will literally just die the moment he touches offstage is big enough to make this certainly a winning matchup for steve unless he gets some actual nerfs in the official build.

I actually have A TON of faith in steve and I think he has what it takes to be a top tier, but whether or not that happens we'll have to find out.
 

Firox

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Can Steve just create blocks to stand on when he gets thrown offstage? If so, isn't that literally broken as a mechanic? That would mean he's literally unkillable unless you:

A) red lightning him clear into the blast zone
B) kill him off the top of the screen
C) land a solid offstage projectile (charged Samus shot, Greninja shuriken, etc.)

Combine this with a viable Up B THAT CAN ACTUALLY GLIDE, I don't see how this character could get added as is without kind of breaking the game. I mean, I know not all recoveries are created equal, but come the hell on! After all the careful balancing this game has gone through, I really don't want to see another Sm4sh Bayo scenario with some broken cash grab wrecking the competitive game.
 

Cutie Gwen

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Can Steve just create blocks to stand on when he gets thrown offstage? If so, isn't that literally broken as a mechanic? That would mean he's literally unkillable unless you:

A) red lightning him clear into the blast zone
B) kill him off the top of the screen
C) land a solid offstage projectile (charged Samus shot, Greninja shuriken, etc.)

Combine this with a viable Up B THAT CAN ACTUALLY GLIDE, I don't see how this character could get added as is without kind of breaking the game. I mean, I know not all recoveries are created equal, but come the hell on! After all the careful balancing this game has gone through, I really don't want to see another Sm4sh Bayo scenario with some broken cash grab wrecking the competitive game.
We know that blocks can't be placed anywhere as there's a limit both horizontally and vertically and how the closer to a blastzone they're made, the quicker they break and less resources that could have been used anywhere else.


The big thing that made Bayo OP imo wasn't her ladder combos or Witch Time, but rather how Smash 4 development ended shortly after her release as they put the team on Ultimate's development. Steve has at over an entire year of support to go through before the devs get to that point.



Also, anyone else think it's interesting that the TNT isn't counted as a solid object? Sakurai showed Sonic run right through it
 

Firox

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We know that blocks can't be placed anywhere as there's a limit both horizontally and vertically and how the closer to a blastzone they're made, the quicker they break and less resources that could have been used anywhere else.


The big thing that made Bayo OP imo wasn't her ladder combos or Witch Time, but rather how Smash 4 development ended shortly after her release as they put the team on Ultimate's development. Steve has at over an entire year of support to go through before the devs get to that point.
These are good points. I forgot about the invisible wall by the blast zone that prohibits block building. Plus, as you said, even if Steve comes out a little broken, there's still time for the dev team to adjust him if necessary.
 
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Idon

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Also look at Steve's natural full hop height which isn't even far enough to reach the first platform of battlefield and a double jump that barely goes over it. That means he'll have to spend that resource often, if not all the time when recovering. Combined with (what seems to me) a pretty lackluster aerial speed, and I think Steve's recovery probably isn't all it's chalked up to be.
 
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FruitLoop

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Also look at Steve's natural full hop height which isn't even far enough to reach the first platform of battlefield. That means he'll have to spend that resource often, if not all the time when recovering. Combined with (what seems to me) a pretty lackluster aerial speed, and I think Steve's recovery probably isn't all it's chocked up to be.
But the difference here is, usually in disadvantage you NEVER want to lose your jumps especially offstage. Since Steve gets his jumps almost always thanks to the blocks and he has a good recovery even without using it while he's generally safe and can't be gimped it's still probably a top 5 recovery at MINIMUM. I still think its by far the best recovery in the game outside of maybe how long it takes which can cause him to get hit out of blocks but I still don't think it's enough of a drawback to really balance out his recovery.
 

SwagGuy99

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Ron, Yoshidora, SUGA, and Rotsuku all made a :ultyoshi: matchup chart together.
There was a problem fetching the tweet

This is the matchup chart of a top 20 character, which Yoshi is probably just on the fringes of being, but I'm not quite convinced he's nearly that good.

Things I'm noticing here:

  • I agree with the :ultpikachu: placement even though ESAM does not. Yoshi has a lot of unique tools that allow him to deal with certain aspects of Pika's kit extremely well. I could see Yoshi potentially beating Pikachu as time goes on, but maybe not, who knows.
  • I disagree with the placements of both :ultluigi: and :ultdoc: and would argue they should be swapped. I tend to notice JP players tend to think more highly of Doc and much lower of Luigi, so while their placements here don't surprise me at all, I do disagree with them. Doc loses to Yoshi (but not hard), Luigi goes even as he's much more consistent in the matchup and has overall better tools to play around Yoshi's kit.
  • :ultyounglink: in winning with :ulttoonlink: and :ultlink: being in even seems to follow a similar trend to the Mario/Luigi/Dr. Mario placements. Toon Link is viewed more highly in Japan, while Young Link seems to be generally viewed as equal or inferior to the other Links. I can see Young Link's lack of kill power making him potentially the worst Link against Yoshi, since Yoshi has high survivability, but I still think that Young Link is probably in even (I could definitely see Link beating Yoshi, but I'm not sure about Toon Link).
  • I don't play :ultinkling: and I'm not the most knowledgeable on them, but them being a +2 matchup seems a bit extreme.
Edit: Forgot to mention that I think this placement of :ultchrom: seems extremely weird. From what I can tell, Chrom has a lot of strong tools against Yoshi, and while his recovery is clearly lacking, I feel like his advantage state and ability to wall Yoshi out with his sword should be extremely strong in the matchup.
 
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StrangeKitten

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  • I agree with the :ultpikachu: placement even though ESAM does not. Yoshi has a lot of unique tools that allow him to deal with certain aspects of Pika's kit extremely well. I could see Yoshi potentially beating Pikachu as time goes on, but maybe not, who knows.
I also agree with the :ultpikachu:placement. :ultyoshi: is one of few characters who can deal with Pika pretty well. His airspeed is what, second only to :ultjigglypuff:? Which allows him the mobility to jump over t-jolts where most other characters don't get much out of doing so. Additionally, double jump armor helps him escape combos and edgeguards, and Egg Toss helps his maneuverability even more while throwing out a projectile. He's floaty, so Pika doesn't combo him as well as most others, and he's heavy, so Pika is killing him later than most (and double jump armor can bs kill moves at times, too), meanwhile Yoshi will kill Pika earlier than most since Pika's light.
 
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Emblem Lord

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Ron, Yoshidora, SUGA, and Rotsuku all made a :ultyoshi: matchup chart together.
There was a problem fetching the tweet

This is the matchup chart of a top 20 character, which Yoshi is probably just on the fringes of being, but I'm not quite convinced he's nearly that good.

Things I'm noticing here:

  • I agree with the :ultpikachu: placement even though ESAM does not. Yoshi has a lot of unique tools that allow him to deal with certain aspects of Pika's kit extremely well. I could see Yoshi potentially beating Pikachu as time goes on, but maybe not, who knows.
  • I disagree with the placements of both :ultluigi: and :ultdoc: and would argue they should be swapped. I tend to notice JP players tend to think more highly of Doc and much lower of Luigi, so while their placements here don't surprise me at all, I do disagree with them. Doc loses to Yoshi (but not hard), Luigi goes even as he's much more consistent in the matchup and has overall better tools to play around Yoshi's kit.
  • :ultyounglink: in winning with :ulttoonlink: and :ultlink: being in even seems to follow a similar trend to the Mario/Luigi/Dr. Mario placements. Toon Link is viewed more highly in Japan, while Young Link seems to be generally viewed as equal or inferior to the other Links. I can see Young Link's lack of kill power making him potentially the worst Link against Yoshi, since Yoshi has high survivability, but I still think that Young Link is probably in even (I could definitely see Link beating Yoshi, but I'm not sure about Toon Link).
  • I don't play :ultinkling: and I'm not the most knowledgeable on them, but them being a +2 matchup seems a bit extreme.
Edit: Forgot to mention that I think this placement of :ultchrom: seems extremely weird. From what I can tell, Chrom has a lot of strong tools against Yoshi, and while his recovery is clearly lacking, I feel like his advantage state and ability to wall Yoshi out with his sword should be extremely strong in the matchup.
Hard disagree with the Terry placement. I don't think Terry fears Yoshi at all in neutral and has the kill power to nullify his weight. Yes, Yoshi can edgeguard Terry. Who can't? You have to win neutral first and Terry with slow power wave and all his burst options has the tools to make Yoshi's life rough.

I call it as -1.
 

TennisBall

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I also agree with the :ultpikachu:placement. :ultyoshi: is one of few characters who can deal with Pika pretty well. His airspeed is what, second only to :ultjigglypuff:? Which allows him the mobility to jump over t-jolts where most other characters don't get much out of doing so. Additionally, double jump armor helps him escape combos and edgeguards, and Egg Toss helps his maneuverability even more while throwing out a projectile. He's floaty, so Pika doesn't combo him as well as most others, and he's heavy, so Pika is killing him later than most (and double jump armor can bs kill moves at times, too), meanwhile Yoshi will kill Pika earlier than most since Pika's light.
Yoshi has the fastest air speed, Puff has 2nd fastest but faster air accel.
 

Thinkaman

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I have 2 main thoughts on Steve and one anti-thought.

First, the most unique thing about Steve underneath it all is that he has a different relationship with aerial vs. ground as most of the cast. This is normally one of the most important distinction in moment-to-moment gameplay, but Steve can just sort of... decide to be on the ground whenever he wants. (And he pays some obvious but weird prices for this, including his jump being horrendous by traditional metrics.) Steve's double jump means something way different than any other character's double jump.

Second, I think people are missing the mark a bit on initial judgements of Steve's edgeguarding--everyone is talking about how outright crazy good blocks are, but I don't think that is quite the correct take based on what we've seen. Blocks affect recoveries in a very non-traditional way: Someone like :ultpikachu:, :ultgreninja:, or :ultjoker: is probably screwed, but plenty of "bad" recoveries like :ultdk: or :ultlittlemac:might not give a single crap about destroyable blocks in their way. :ultfalcon: can probably Raptor Boost them without going helpless. Many of the hitbox-less recovery characters who would be most affected by blocks can travel under the stage, bypassing the issue on applicable stages. (Incidentally, this is yet another factor of Steve's stage preferences that is being overlooked.)

If Steve's edgeguarding is bonkers, it probably won't be because of purely blocks as much as his arsenal of blocks, anvil, minecart, and off-stage d-smash having something that works well against a given opponent.


I think the only thing we can say for sure about Steve is that he is probably going to be the most unique character in the game so far, for these and other reasons. I think we have no idea how he will actually behave and that most speculation is baseless/futile. I can't tell you how to spend the next 8 days, but I don't think we'll have a deep understanding of Steve before 2021, much less next week.
 

StrangeKitten

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Steve's gonna be a hard character to pin down, for sure. Especially since I can see him being better online, and we're still gonna be doing online tournaments for a while. His bag of tricks definitely runs deep, moreso than any other character imo
 

BitBitio

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The pig and creeper miis are the best part of the DLC
Steve looks like a lot of fun to use. Jab/Ftilt/Nair looks nice as just a general boxing/up close option. Utilt/uair looks like a nice anti-air and juggler, dtilt looks fun for edgeguarding and maybe some other combo uses, dash attack is a nice burst, usmash looks like a super good anti air but isn't a great KO option and leaves you vulnerable, fsmash looks like a solid KO option, dsmash provides a great semispike and possible tech chase option, the fair/bair look like approach options and combo finishers, the grab is nice, the specials are super useful if you know what you're doing, framedata, mobility, and recovery all seem good. Overall, there seems to be no crippling, major flaws that the other DLCs suffered from (PPlant's mobility and hitboxes, Hero's framedata/airspeed/RNG, Banjo's airspeed/bad combo game, Terry's recovery/technical difficulty, Byleth's mobility/framedata, Min Min's narrow hitboxes and below average framedata/mobility/recovery) and the techs with this guy will be very nice. I think that the combo game has potential too with a combo throw, gold being even faster and still being weak, and the traps with minecart/blocks/TNT. It will be fun
 

Nate1080

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I’ll be honest and say that I actually like the fact that Steve low jumps. Yeah, jumping to platforms are a problem, but who cares? He spawns his own platforms anyways and low jumping (combined with the low landing lag of Ultimate) makes short hop attacks even easier to do.
 

StrangeKitten

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I’ll be honest and say that I actually like the fact that Steve low jumps. Yeah, jumping to platforms are a problem, but who cares? He spawns his own platforms anyways and low jumping (combined with the low landing lag of Ultimate) makes short hop attacks even easier to do.
I've been thinking the low jump could actually be more of a blessing than a curse. Everyone I've seen talk about it has been quick to act like it'll make recovering rough for him, but I've been thinking about how you could probably get away with doing full hop aerials almost all the time... and buffered short hop aerials will only be rising by technicality. Won't be like most other characters where a sh rising aerial can miss small characters.
 

The_Bookworm

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I've been thinking the low jump could actually be more of a blessing than a curse. Everyone I've seen talk about it has been quick to act like it'll make recovering rough for him, but I've been thinking about how you could probably get away with doing full hop aerials almost all the time... and buffered short hop aerials will only be rising by technicality. Won't be like most other characters where a sh rising aerial can miss small characters.
The reason why people say having such a low first jump is bad for Steve isn't because of recovering, but rather because it makes Steve very vulnerable to platform camping.
In order to catch opponents platform camping, he has to sacrifice his second jump, which is obviously a very risky option, or use Create Block in order to build platforms up towards the opponent.
The latter option seems fine on paper, but he has to sacrifice resources to do so, while Steve is left vulnerable while trying to place his blocks down.

I don't quite know how SH aerials work for the character, but full hop forward and back air recovers fast enough so that Steve can land laglessly, while the pickaxe have decent vertical reach.
The problem is that both forward and especially back air have significant landing lag, one of the highest out of their respective categories. Sword forward and back aerials are much faster, but are very weak as a result.
While there is chance that forward air might recover fast enough if used in a rising SH to not endure the long landing lag, it likely won't work for back air.

We won't know for sure until the character drops.
 
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TheBeastHimself

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I'm interested to see how the block placing mechanic will affect recoveries.

For instance, Ness' PK Thunder cancels if it collides with any surface or player, so Ness mains may have to be extremely precise when aiming their recovery if Steve decides to build a ceiling off stage. Unless the Ness player is able to do the double PK Thunder trick in time.

I'd imagine a character like Jigglypuff would have to waste extra jumps to break blocks placed above them.

Falcon could probably burst through them, same with the Fire Emblem cast (though I'm not sure if Robin could).

How does a character like King K. Rool or Duck Hunt get through if the blocks are placed as they're recovering? That's going to waste precious time.

All I'm saying is, if the blocks are placed as a character is recovering (before they disintegrate), a lot of recoveries might be invalidated, but others likely won't be affected. It depends on if hitting a block stops momentum, or allows a character to go through them.
 

The_Bookworm

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I'm interested to see how the block placing mechanic will affect recoveries.

For instance, Ness' PK Thunder cancels if it collides with any surface or player, so Ness mains may have to be extremely precise when aiming their recovery if Steve decides to build a ceiling off stage. Unless the Ness player is able to do the double PK Thunder trick in time.

I'd imagine a character like Jigglypuff would have to waste extra jumps to break blocks placed above them.

Falcon could probably burst through them, same with the Fire Emblem cast (though I'm not sure if Robin could).

How does a character like King K. Rool or Duck Hunt get through if the blocks are placed as they're recovering? That's going to waste precious time.

All I'm saying is, if the blocks are placed as a character is recovering (before they disintegrate), a lot of recoveries might be invalidated, but others likely won't be affected. It depends on if hitting a block stops momentum, or allows a character to go through them.
I think it all comes down to the type of material used to build that block. If it a low level material, in which Steve can easily burn, I think the block is simply just going to break instantly when it touches a hitbox. They look very fragile from what I see in the trailer.


In :ultjigglypuff:'s case, I think it is simply going to jump over everything Steve attempts to do. Pound is a good way of breaking through the blocks when it needs to do so, thanks to it's lingering (big) hitbox.
In :ultkrool:'s case, Propeller Pack likely eats up whatever blocks Steve places down. It probably won't beat out higher levels of blocks, but Steve has to burn all of his resources in order to get that far, which is not entirely a good idea since a lot of Steve's biggest strengths in his moveset comes from the usage of higher level blocks.

If you are a Steve player and have iron in your inventory. Would you A) burn all of your resources to place iron blocks, and hope it would block the opponent's recovery, B) use iron to upgrade your weapons to the second-strongest level, or C) use iron for the other aspects of the character's moveset like down air or side B?
As you can see, Steve cannot really afford to use higher levels of blocks, if it means burning all of your other resources and lose access to other aspects of the character. The opportunity cost is usually too significant for it to be worth it.

Now back to :ultkrool:, Steve can use a better use of his iron: using down air to snipe his recovery. We don't know how cheap that is, but it is certainly better than burning all of your resources. If you can't afford to throw iron away there, you can down tilt and fling flames instead. The range and hitbox duration is much more limited than PK Fire and Arcfire, but it is another option he can do.


The point in the end, is that Steve's edgeguarding can be devastating. However, I don't think it is going to be as easy as some people make it out to be. A lot of risk-taking and resource-managing is going to be in play when using Create Block to edgeguard, or use Create Block as a move at all.
It is the main reason why I think using it as a landing mixup option in a similar vein to Peach's float mechanic, is the safest, most effective, and most cheap way of using the move, and part of why I think Steve's disadvantage is going to be strong.
 

Thinkaman

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The reason why people say having such a low first jump is bad for Steve isn't because of recovering, but rather because it makes Steve very vulnerable to platform camping.
In order to catch opponents platform camping, he has to sacrifice his second jump, which is obviously a very risky option
But that's the thing, it seemingly isn't. Steve can more or less get his double jump back whenever he wants, short of being sent off-camera.

It's a different paradigm, in which many of our priors don't apply.
 

NotLiquid

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It feels like some kind of buff to tether recoveries might be in order. Steve's block building is more or less a mind play rather than some kind of instant negation. Some characters will naturally struggle against it more than others, but recoveries in Ultimate are generally strong not just because of long distances, but also because of factors like air speed, gravity, up B hitboxes, etc. Characters like Pikachu will still most likely have an easy time getting back, because they have options in how they get back on stage. Characters with tether recoveries aren't as lucky in that regard, especially since the crucial block that hinders them (the one closest to the stage) is the one that negates the slowest. Belmont might actually do decently since his non-tether recovery is a multi-hit that'll likely break the boxes, but characters like Joker, Byleth and Min Min are a little less in luck.

Of course, it's possible that the blocks may end up having grabbable ledges. Range seems to be a potential issue that Steve struggles with as well, and his ground-to-air looks explicitly lacking with that single hop. Those two aforementioned characters will likely have a field day in neutral so perhaps the potential for off-stage disaster ends up "mitigated" somewhat in all of this, given how Sakurai stresses the vigilance of balancing newcomers against the entire cast. Min Min in particular might just be able to shred some of the boxes with Dragon lasers and Ramram.
 
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The_Bookworm

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It feels like some kind of buff to tether recoveries might be in order. Steve's block building is more or less a mind play rather than some kind of instant negation. Some characters will naturally struggle against it more than others, but recoveries in Ultimate are generally strong not just because of long distances, but also because of factors like air speed, gravity, up B hitboxes, etc. Characters like Pikachu will still most likely have an easy time getting back, because they have options in how they get back on stage. Characters with tether recoveries aren't as lucky in that regard, especially since the crucial block that hinders them (the one closest to the stage) is the one that negates the slowest. Belmont might actually do decently since his non-tether recovery is a multi-hit that'll likely break the boxes, but characters like Joker, Byleth and Min Min are a little less in luck.

Of course, it's possible that the blocks may end up having grabbable ledges. Range seems to be a potential issue that Steve struggles with as well, and his ground-to-air looks explicitly lacking with that single hop. Those two aforementioned characters will likely have a field day in neutral so perhaps the potential for off-stage disaster ends up "mitigated" somewhat in all of this, given how Sakurai stresses the vigilance of balancing newcomers against the entire cast. Min Min in particular might just be able to shred some of the boxes with Dragon lasers and Ramram.
It depends on how tether recoveries interact with the blocks.
There is a chance that the tether recovery gets blocked by the block and the tether reliant characters are screwed.
There is a chance that the tether recovery destroys the block, allowing the tether recovering character to double jump -> tether back.
There is a chance that the tether recovery ignores the block entirely, and makes it back to the ledge while ignoring the block's existance.

We don't know until the character drops because the character showcase didn't show its interaction with tether recoveries.

I actually learned about this while looking at the SmashWiki page on Steve.

However, it does seem like that this is simply an attack-canceled smash attack, which is something everyone has. However, this tech isn't very practical. The closest thing we have seen to a practical application with this tech is Lucas canceling up smash's startup, but even then, we don't see this often.

Sakurai later in the direct showed that forward and back aerials can be performed with a sword if you transition into the air with a basic sword swipe.
 

Lacrimosa

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Guess we'll only know when Steve finally comes out.

But I'll riot if it messes up teleport recoveries but it could affect those recoveries without a hitbox more than the teleports that have one.
I'm not really worried about blocks messing up the angles as Zelda goes directly to the ledge 95% of the times.
 

TennisBall

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That's just attack cancelling. Been here for a while.
 

Thinkaman

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Guess we'll only know when Steve finally comes out.

But I'll riot if it messes up teleport recoveries but it could affect those recoveries without a hitbox more than the teleports that have one.
I'm not really worried about blocks messing up the angles as Zelda goes directly to the ledge 95% of the times.
Phantom probably lets floaty Zelda queue up destruction of blocks from a safe distance away, with plenty of time to teleport to ledge.

The dynamic I'm more concerned with is the specifics surrounding tethers, and way it interacts with things like Mario, Incineroar, or Marth up-b.
 

Krysco

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Just checked the Sakurai Presents video on Steve again and something to note when it comes to the blocks is that Steve can't choose what type of block to place down. The game will always prioritize the simplest/weakest type of material to make blocks with first and how much damage each block can take before breaking is dependent on the material it's made of. This means most of the blocks Steve will create will be with weaker materials as they're the easier ones to get. Stage dependent of course so on Lylat in particular, he should have access to the stronger iron blocks more often as he'll mine iron more often on that stage.

I assume multihitting recovery moves will have an easier time against the blocks compared to single hit ones. If for example Marcina Dolphin Slashes against a block and it doesn't break, then they're stuck waiting and hoping the block gets destroyed just by time before they end up too far to grab the ledge while a character like Mario or Roy should have each hit of their special hit the block, causing more hitlag and more time going by and therefore a higher chance of the block breaking. Won't know for sure till the character drops. Double jumping under the block might also help for the characters that can afford to do so as double jumping under them also damages them a bit.

Edit: Also from the same video, the blocks don't appear to have grabbable ledges at all. We see Alex fall next to the blocks numerous times in the video, both with her front and back to blocks and she doesn't grab them as if they're ledges and we also see it once with Mario when he jumps against the blocks to break them, as he's coming back down from his double jump, he also doesn't grab the blocks.
 
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Firox

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Just checked the Sakurai Presents video on Steve again and something to note when it comes to the blocks is that Steve can't choose what type of block to place down. The game will always prioritize the simplest/weakest type of material to make blocks with first and how much damage each block can take before breaking is dependent on the material it's made of. This means most of the blocks Steve will create will be with weaker materials as they're the easier ones to get. Stage dependent of course so on Lylat in particular, he should have access to the stronger iron blocks more often as he'll mine iron more often on that stage.

I assume multihitting recovery moves will have an easier time against the blocks compared to single hit ones. If for example Marcina Dolphin Slashes against a block and it doesn't break, then they're stuck waiting and hoping the block gets destroyed just by time before they end up too far to grab the ledge while a character like Mario or Roy should have each hit of their special hit the block, causing more hitlag and more time going by and therefore a higher chance of the block breaking. Won't know for sure till the character drops. Double jumping under the block might also help for the characters that can afford to do so as double jumping under them also damages them a bit.
With your theory about multi-hit recoveries, I assume Ike will pull a "honey badger" on those blocks since he has so much priority on his up B in the first place.
 

meleebrawler

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Just checked the Sakurai Presents video on Steve again and something to note when it comes to the blocks is that Steve can't choose what type of block to place down. The game will always prioritize the simplest/weakest type of material to make blocks with first and how much damage each block can take before breaking is dependent on the material it's made of. This means most of the blocks Steve will create will be with weaker materials as they're the easier ones to get. Stage dependent of course so on Lylat in particular, he should have access to the stronger iron blocks more often as he'll mine iron more often on that stage.

I assume multihitting recovery moves will have an easier time against the blocks compared to single hit ones. If for example Marcina Dolphin Slashes against a block and it doesn't break, then they're stuck waiting and hoping the block gets destroyed just by time before they end up too far to grab the ledge while a character like Mario or Roy should have each hit of their special hit the block, causing more hitlag and more time going by and therefore a higher chance of the block breaking. Won't know for sure till the character drops. Double jumping under the block might also help for the characters that can afford to do so as double jumping under them also damages them a bit.

Edit: Also from the same video, the blocks don't appear to have grabbable ledges at all. We see Alex fall next to the blocks numerous times in the video, both with her front and back to blocks and she doesn't grab them as if they're ledges and we also see it once with Mario when he jumps against the blocks to break them, as he's coming back down from his double jump, he also doesn't grab the blocks.
Sakurai kind of goes out of his way to say using iron for blocks is a relative waste, and considering mining is slower on iron surface, you'd be hard pressed to actually have a chance to get enough iron to do stuff like that without using it for your equipment that you have to build and maintain to keep your edge in a fight.

I'm more interested in seeing how the blocks can be used in doubles to aid recovering partners as a temporary platform.
 
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