Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

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Damned1

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jul 25, 2019
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32
Oh so close. Turning with Wario's Bike still causes frame drops

Tbh if this is the only thing that causes lag the I would argue for FOD to be legal anyway. Nobody uses Bike Turnaround and its super punishable even in lag.
Sadly, the lone fact that it's possible to cause lag disqualifies the stage instantly. Ahhhhhhh damn it, 8.1 fix maybe?
 

Gearkeeper-8a

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Feb 12, 2018
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Sadly, the lone fact that it's possible to cause lag disqualifies the stage instantly. Ahhhhhhh damn it, 8.1 fix maybe?
Cmon other legal stages have worse things against them for legality in this game and still we play on them.
 

blackghost

Smash Lord
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Sadly, the lone fact that it's possible to cause lag disqualifies the stage instantly. Ahhhhhhh damn it, 8.1 fix maybe?
maybe im just old school but if that is the singular thing that causes frame drops id to expect the wario players to ban and leave it legal the potential gain far outpaces the loss.
its like the inverse of smash 4 lylat when fighting a Pikachu. you just have to know. serious players learn their stages and the impact it has on matchups.less serious players ban things so they dont have to learn as much.
 

NeonBurrito

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Cmon other legal stages have worse things against them for legality in this game and still we play on them.
The problem is, why bother with it though? FoD already has the exact same blast zones as Battlefield, and the fact that the ruleset is always on Hazardless means the only thing setting the two apart is very slight differences in platform placement. There isn't really any reason to use FoD over Battlefield when they act identically in competitive play, only FoD brings more problems with it.

Lylat is definitely worth looking into however if its ledge problems are fixed for all characters.
 

Lacrimosa

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As expected, the Min-Min matchup seems super rough for Zelda.

Was able to play some matches against players on different skill levels (some better, some worse) but these matches had one thing in common: Min-Min dominates the match when she is at mid-range because she stuffs out Phantom and aerial approaches. She's also quite fast, it seems. Meaning, Zelda can'T really play her game but it's still possible with displaced Phantom (but I can't do this tech in a real match, even less on Wi-Fi).
Min-Min also capitalizes on Zelda's bad ledge options, so she can keep Zelda there for quite some time and with the correct arm she gets early K.Os.

Basically, Min-Min can pressure her from nearly everywhere on-stage and Zelda doesn't really want to engage with the opponent and stage control. Both things are really difficult to achieve when facin Min-Min.

I'm not really the analytic type, so I guess these are the first impressions but it certainly is the rough matchup I expected. But I have to say, it's still day 2 (and day 1 for me).
 
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The_Bookworm

Smash Champion
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Jan 10, 2018
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Going to post the statistical attributes of :ultminmin.

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Ground mobility stats:

Walk: 1.05. 53rd fastest walk speed.
Walk speed is not too bad all things considering. Walk speed is faster than Dedede and ICs (leader), but slightly slower than Banjo's.

Run Speed: 1.566. 65th-66th fastest run speed. Same run speed as :ultbowserjr:.
Run speed, while not terrible, is on the lower end of list, only being slightly faster than Wolf and Link in terms of run speed.

Initial Dash: 1.815. 59th-67th fastest initial dash. Same initial dash as :ultlucas::ultluigi::ultike::ultkingdedede::ultisabelle::ultbyleth::ultvillager::ultrobin:.
Initial dash, while far from terrible, is also not too great either. Being paired with characters who are not known for their mobility doesn't help matters.

Overall verdict on grounded mobility:
On paper, her grounded mobility is a bit on the lackluster side. Not too bad, but far from good either.
That being said, if you factor in on how much space Min Min controls, these grounded mobility stats are actually kind of impressive, with her grounded mobility stats being noticeably faster than Belmont's and Byleth's grounded mobility.

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Air mobility speed:

Air speed: 0.85. 6th slowest air speed in the game, only faster than :ultkirby::ulticeclimbers::ultganondorf::ultluigi::ultkingdedede:.
This air speed stat might be biggest overall weakness to Min Min, being very poor overall.
This is not as a big of a hindrance as most other characters with poor air mobility, due to how much space she controls and her grounded mobility being better than most other characters with poor air speeds, but this is a notable hindrance regardless.

Base air acceleration: 0.01. Additional air acceleration: 0.05.
Max air acceleration: 0.06. 55th-63rd fastest air acceleration. Same max air acceleration as :ultyounglink::ultcharizard::ultswordfighter::ultpiranha::ultdk::ultvillager::ultisabelle::ult_terry:.
Similar to most of her grounded mobility stats, her air acceleration is in the "not terrible, but not really good either" category. It certainty does not do her poor air speed any favors. It is slightly better than Byleth's, but noticeably better than Belmont's.

Fall speed: 1.5. 54th-57th fastest fall speed. Same fall speed as :ultmario::ultdoc::ultrobin:.
Fall speed is overall alright. Divekick down air isn't too great for landing, but at least her fall speed isn't too bad to compound with this.

Fast fall speed: 2.432. 51st-52nd fastest fast fall. Same fast fall as :ultcharizard:.
Fast fall speed is also overall alright. Also aids with landing quite a bit.
Fun fact: her fall speed is actually faster than Mario, Dr. Mario, and Robin, who are all tied with 2.4 fast fall speed. It makes sense giving her higher weight class, but I find it a funny observation.

Gravity: 0.11. 22nd-25th fastest gravity. Same gravity as :ultcharizard::ultmetaknight::ultbanjokazooie:.
Gravity is pretty good, which is really helpful in Min Min's case, since it aids in her landing and gives her access to her falling fair/bair.
It does have the adverse affect of slightly hurting her recovery in combination of her poor air speed, but her tether is thankfully long reached.
Overall, this stat here is very helpful to Min Min as a character.

Overall verdict on air mobility:
Not good whatsoever. Her poor air speed and below average air acceleration can make it hard for her to escape situations. This would normally hurt her spacing, but it is Min Min. In terms of air mobility, I think she has it worse than Byleth, who while has slightly worse air acceleration, has notably more air speed to his credit even if it still isn't that good. I do think she has it better than the Belmonts, as while her air speed is notably lower than them, her air acceleration is much better than them, who is tied with Snake as the worse air acceleration in the game.

In terms of vertical air movement, she is actually very solid, being borderline top 20 in terms of gravity, as well being alright in terms of fall speed and fast fall speed. This helps her out especially in her air-to-ground transitioning, and aids her quite a bit in landing especially as a character with a stand-then-fall down air and poor air speed.

Overall, while her air mobility is very lackluster, and a low-point for the character itself, the tools Min Min has makes not quite a as bad as it would be otherwise.

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Verdict in overall mobility:
Not good, which makes sense given her archetype, but her mobility stats is actually not too bad given her toolkit, her weight, and in comparison to others in her archetype. In other words: Min Min is a lucky character, as things could've been way worse for her.

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Miscellaneous stats:

Weight: 104. 21st-25th heaviest character in the game. Same weight as :ultlink::ultyoshi::ultfalcon::ultgunner:.
Unlike all the other non-palette swap female characters, Min Min is actually a heavyweight. This is significant to her survivalbility. While not quite as heavy as the Belmonts, her better recovery will get the job done better. This is especially significant as 8.0 granted new confirms to quite a bit of characters, most significantly to Falcon, Falco, Pit, and Ike, so having good survivalbility is very helpful.

Now why is Min Min this heavy exactly? Likely due to how heavy her giant mechanical arms are.
Or maybe it is in the ramen? It would make sense since she has the same weight as Falcon. :upsidedown:

Traction: 0.13. 9th-10th fastest traction in the game. Same traction as :ultjoker:.
Main reason why I listed traction under "Miscellaneous Stats" and not under "Ground Mobility Stats" is because traction in Ultimate, for the most part, is pretty irrelevant. The only time it is somewhat relevant is if you are a character with good ground mobility AND good traction, like Sonic, Joker, and Pit.
That being said, Min Min having one of the best tractions in the game can come in clutch in niche situations, especially given her absurdly long grab range.

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Shoutouts to Mario & Sonic Guy from the "Min Min and Ver. 8.0.0 Update are out for Smash Ultimate!" news thread, as info like Air Acceleration, Fast Fall Speed, Traction, Gravity, and Walk are not yet posted in the SmashWiki. I am pretty sure this info exists somewhere else, but he is the one where I got these values from.
 

SwagGuy99

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So, I played a lot yesterday, and I feel like some matchups for :ultbowser: did shift around a bit after this patch. For the most part, I don't think it makes any matchups significantly worse (except two characters who I'll get to). Granted, these are Day 3 opinions that I've formulated based on the changes each character received and on my experiences fighting them on wifi so they could be totally off, but here's how I'm feeling currently:

Bowser most likely wins this one by a decent amount if you're willing to play patient

:ultminmin

Winning matchups that I don't think changed significantly based on this patch

:ultmewtwo::ultkirby::ultpit::ultdarkpit::ultike::ultcorrin:

Matchups Bowser wins, but are probably going to be noticeably harder now

:ultmarth::ultbayonetta::ultincineroar:

Matchups that used to be winning, that might be even

:ultisabelle::ultkrool:

Matchups that used to be even/slightly winning that we might lose slightly now (could still be even)

:ultkingdedede::ultvillager:

Matchups that were slightly losing or even, that I can confidently say are probably losing now

:ultpiranha::ultfalcon:

Matchups that Bowser already lost, but most likely loses noticeably harder

:ultwiifittrainer::ultfalco:

Lacked experience here prior to the patch, but it's at least the same as before, if not easier

:ultdiddy:

Honestly no clue, probably worse, but I'm not sure by how much

:ultmetaknight:

I think :ultfalco: may have become Bowser's worst matchup (IMO it was already in his 3 worst matchups) and :ultwiifittrainer: may be a -2 matchup now instead of -1.

  • :ultfalco: already did an excellent job at combo-vortexing Bowser (similarly to :4fox:) and could play neutral well enough against Bowser, but I feel like this matchup is even worse after this patch. Falco can still be ledgetrapped and edgeguarded, but that's all that Bowser really has on him. If he touches Bowser with a d-tilt, d-air, landing n-air, or up-tilt, Bowser has very few options to escape. Falco's d-air is also better for edgeguarding and up-smash is a much better combo finisher now and it kills early. I don't really think this matchup changed by that much in terms of individual changes, but in terms of how much those changes make this matchup, it feels like it will be much harder now.
  • :ultwiifittrainer: gaining even better confirms into up-smash along with her f-air being better for comboing honestly just makes what was already bad about this matchup worse. Combine that with her already solid edgeguarding, ledge camping, and projectile game, and I can see this matchup going from a slight disadvantage to a solid disadvantage for Bowser.
Thoughts on the :ultminmin/:ultbowser: matchup

  • I think :ultminmin loses this matchup by quite a bit to be honest. You have to play patiently against her, camp on platforms sometimes and wait for an opening, try not to whiff side-b or up-b OOS, but if you can manage to do all of those things, I honestly think this matchup is kind of easy. Granted, it's only been a few days since Min Min came out, but I still feel like Bowser's strengths will really shine through in this matchup. She struggles to kill you, she gets edgeguarded pretty hard, she tacks on damage slowly, she has trouble hitting you on platforms, she's easy to keep in disadvantage, you can rush her down in some scenarios, up-b and side-b OOS are somewhat effective against her, this character just feels like she has trouble getting much started against Bowser. She does have some good things in this matchup and getting in can be hard, especially on FD, but I don't think that matters enough to shift the matchup entirely in her favor, since some of her moves do leave big openings for punishing her. Her win condition here seems to be to force Bowser offstage and safely edgeguard him from onstage, but there are still issues with this strategy since she lacks safe, fast ways to get him offstage until higher percents (outside of back throw which is locked behind a risky and punishable grab), and even then, Bowser can still recover very high or very low in some scenarios and if he can land on a platform, he's fairly safe from Min Min unless she predicts that he's going to do so. So yeah, I do think this is a winning matchup for Bowser, and it might be better than just a slight advantage for Bowser too. Keep in mind I've only had a few days of experience against this character, and this could change in the future, but I have trouble seeing this matchup as being anything better than even for Min Min, even as her meta progresses.
 
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So um

Is Marth actually that much better? I don't know. I have been playing with him and the tippers sadly feel super weird. There are times when I'm sure I hit the tip of the blade and didn't get it, and times when I'm sure I *didn't* and the opponent dies at 60.

I played some Lucina but I'm not a Marth player so I don't know if it's better or if I'm just doing it wrong or what, but my gut says not much has really changed.

I'd be happy if Marth was just a good pick in some match-ups. I don't necessarily want him to just be a better Lucina. But right now it seems like he's still not a better choice almost ever.
 

SwagGuy99

Smash Ace
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654
So um

Is Marth actually that much better? I don't know. I have been playing with him and the tippers sadly feel super weird. There are times when I'm sure I hit the tip of the blade and didn't get it, and times when I'm sure I *didn't* and the opponent dies at 60.

I played some Lucina but I'm not a Marth player so I don't know if it's better or if I'm just doing it wrong or what, but my gut says not much has really changed.

I'd be happy if Marth was just a good pick in some match-ups. I don't necessarily want him to just be a better Lucina. But right now it seems like he's still not a better choice almost ever.
The changes to b-air seems significant. The other two aerials that were buffed have improved hitboxes, just not as much as b-air. Here's the new hitbox visualizations for them.


Also, Larry Lurr made a breakdown video of Falco that might be worth watching as well for anyone curious about the changes Falco got. Larry seems to think he's a solid high tier now at least.

 
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Thinkaman

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I want to reiterate the signifigance of the Isabelle buffs. Every coverage or commentary of this patch I've seen has glossed over or even dismissed them, which is baffling to me. It seems to show a lack of understanding of the character, which I guess isn't surprising.

Watch kept's Villager. He uses slingshot, lloid rocket, and rarely dash attack to make a wall. That's the Villager plan. And that's his only plan. Kept does the wall until the opponent dies, often from a slingshot that is super stale. It's a super straight-forward character.

Now watch kept's Isabelle. Half the time he is playing a worse version of the Villager wall game. (Slightly better mobility but no Lloid Rocket) The other half the time he is playing the "I read you trying to break through the wall and now you die" game, which heavily relies on f-smash, fishing rod, and grab. Note that those first two options are Isabelle specific--Villager literally can't play this way. And if you watch Boochi, she leans more heavily into this other half of Isabelle.


Now, the thing is, honestly? Neither Villager nor either half of Isabelle's intended game plan were affected by this patch. None of the moves that were changed is what either character wants to use when things are "going according to plan." Even uair and dair are irrelevant--like Min Min, their dream game is played purely horizontal.

Instead everything is relevant to Plan B, when the enemy has gotten in on them or their wall has forced an aggressive reaction that opens up an air-to-ground punish opportunity.

For Villager, Plan B has traditionally involved 90% nair OoS, and rarely jab. Now u-tilt is a safe anti-air option, and u-smash has a more fitting reward. Nice, but not that different honestly. On the punish side, dair is now more accessible--which is pretty safe on block and can link into u-tilt and u-smash, so there's some real value there.

Isabelle's Plan B was more complicated. Nair OoS was and is great, but she has other more rewarding ways out of trouble. Her u-tilt always comboed into itself at low %s and uair at mid %s, but it wasn't tight. If you watched kept, he often would land u-tilt but then not pursue the borderline true followup--and who can blame him? Ending up on the wrong side of that could be eating a nasty reversal.

But now the move--a combo starter move--has a whopping 3 frames less endlag. All of those followups are ironclad, every low % u-tilt is now a >32% string. And now that Isabelle has time to double jump in her chase, the uair followup extends to significantly higher %s. And because uair now has 30 -> 40 base knockback, it's just enough to kill light characters like G&W at watch at the high end of its true combo range. And of course it gets all the safety benefits of being a full 3 frames faster.

So before, these moves that kept was landing and getting nothing more than 9% on, now is killing G&W.


Villager I guess appreciates the same base knockback buff to uair, but he doesn't get much use of it. But Isabelle's moveset has multiple things that put the opponent above her, and superior mobility to stay under opponents when she so desires. Uair has always been the easiest followup to Lloid Trap, and with the buff it kills significantly sooner. (~92% on Mario from the base stage.)

Isabelle also gets more use out of dair, both on and off-stage. She's more mobile, and it sets up into a wider array of threats. This is especially true now that her u-smash is faster, and equally viable as a followup (or OoS option) as Villager u-smash.

But Isabelle has other landing followup improvements too. She can now true combo dash attack out of her (absurdly safe on block) landing nair, which resumes the slingshot wall immediately. Jab now also gets access to u-smash just like d-smash.

Suddenly Plan B is starting to look pretty good. Doing multiple safe-on-block things that lead to over 30% or kill at 90? If Isabelle starts forcing defensive options beyond just shield for empty hopping at you, now the opponent is in trouble. And if her own OoS game is now almost as good as Villager's, we could be talking about a slower game that takes us back to Plan A.


I already thought Isabelle was underrated and don't suspect these changes are making her high-tier. But I would consider them some of the more impactful changes in this patch, because they directly address her weaker side and we can point to numerous moments in pro-level games where they would have made a clear and major difference.

Edit: U-tilt to uair kill ranges:

https://twitter.com/Furret_belle/status/1278251353874153473
 
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Lacrimosa

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I like that the low tier characters got nerfed.
This way, you encounter more match-ups ans you get experience with them. Like, I barely fought any Falcons pre-patch and therefore the matchup was rather obscure for me. But today, there have been multiple Falcons. The same probably goes for the other buffed characters as well but in my case, it was Falcon.
This also happened with Sheik and Zelda, I still see them very often in the GSP area where I am.

This philosophy is really good but I really wish that Nintendo/Namco improves on their net-code. Having some MU knowledge is nice but currently it only gives you an idea but for a better understanding a better Online system is needed.
 

Arthur97

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As for Marth, you may have to wait and see once people learn the new spacing well to see just how well (or bad) he does now, but, yeah, I definitely don't want him better than Lucina.
 

Rizen

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I tried quick play wifi. OMG smash online is awful!!!!!!!!!!!! It just rewards you for mashing buttons. There's no comparing wifi to offline. I think we'll all be glad when live tournaments start again.

It sucks when there's a big update and the meta is completely frozen. All we can really do is speculate how good each buffed character and Min Min is.
 

Thinkaman

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Wanting rollback netcode is like wanting an electric car.

Great idea, it's the right thing to want. The rightful #1 request for the next generation; let them know loud and clear! Shout it from the rooftops!

But your 2006 Chevy Tahoe is never getting an electric engine+battery+drivetrain, and asking your dealer to install one makes you look like an idiot.


Rollback requires the ability to simulate the numbers of frames you are rolling back. (In 1 frame.) In other words, supporting X frames of rollback means your silicon has to be overkill capable of executing your game's core loop X times faster than normal.

That's great if you are running Melee or some 90s sprite-based game on a modern x86 laptop. But a 2018 1080p 8-player title on a Tegra 3? It's an engineering feat they got it to a consistent 60fps at all; asking for 8 frames of rollback is asking for 480fps. (On the CPU side; GPU doesn't care.)
 

Minordeth

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There is a substantial difference between Quick Play and local/regional, wired connections. To a certain degree, QP sucks because the larger player base uses a WiFi connection.

I can’t say I blame them, as WiFi is more convenient, and requiring a USB dongle for a wired connection is madness.

It’s a shame that a serviceable online experience is locked behind a de facto paywall, but requires you to manually match-make.

I’ve had few complaints about Ult’s online; however, my pool of potential is quite a bit smaller.
 

DougEfresh

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Mar 23, 2020
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I tried quick play wifi. OMG smash online is awful!!!!!!!!!!!! It just rewards you for mashing buttons. There's no comparing wifi to offline. I think we'll all be glad when live tournaments start again.

It sucks when there's a big update and the meta is completely frozen. All we can really do is speculate how good each buffed character and Min Min is.
It is unfortunate that we won't be seeing the impact of these 8.0 changes in an offline setting anytime soon (and we may even get patch 9.0 before offline tournaments are able to resume on a wider scale), but at the same time, it does give the mains of all the significantly buffed characters from this update the time to fully lab out and master any new combos and kill confirms that are now available to them.

I recognize that method is pretty limited for a lot of people who are without offline training partners to help with labbing and friendlies and have to instead rely on the garbage wifi, but it'll be interesting to see what new meta developments arise from this opportunity of extended experimentation due to the quarantine. Can't deny that the unavailability of offline play and tournaments has really made Ultimate's online stand out as completely irredeemable though, I'll give you that.
 

The_Bookworm

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I firmly believe that everyone in WINNERS! are very noticeable.
The degrees on how much someone "won" actually varies more than it seems.
There are some where the buffs are nice additions, but do not do much to fix the character's main issues, such as: :ultkrool::ultpiranha::ultwiifittrainer:
There are some where the buffs do touch up on the character's issues on some degree, but it is mostly merely really nice QoL buffs: :ultmewtwo::ultmarth::ultkirby:

However, there are some where the buffs are really huge and very tier breaking for the character, addressing weaknesses while provided some new sauce: :ultfalco::ultike::ultpit:

I provided three characters per category, but you can get the picture.
 

Envoy of Chaos

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Bringing up our online only environment has implications for future balance changes. I’m not super familiar with the post development process for a video game but I would imagine 9.0 is in progress now along with one or two of the new DLC fighters. Without having any tournaments for a few months now and if I’m being honest probably not for the rest of the year I have to wonder how much the development team used tournament before when going for balance updates (by the looks of usage and results I have to admit it does seem they either internally have statistics that mirror the communities or they do use community statistics, some.) With how online smash is you have to wonder how much balance is going to be determined purely off online play for these coming balance changes.

I don’t imagine a lot, obviously the development team is aware of how the added input delay could change things when compared to offline (unless they are that oblivious to the nature of online play in general which I doubt). This also has implications in the development of the Min Min meta game. This is already a character that by design will do better when the delayed reaction of online. It will be interesting to see how this shapes her new metagame going forward as well as how it existing metagames evolve for this long term online situation.
 

SwagGuy99

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2 days have gone by and oh boy, what a patch!



I firmly believe that everyone in WINNERS! are very noticeable.
I agree with this except :ultdoc:. While I think he needs more changes to be anything better than lower mid tier, I still think he's good enough to be lower mid tier and his matchup spread is underrated by almost everyone IMO. I still have trouble seeing buffed characters like :ultkrool: and :ultkingdedede: (who I think may also be lower mid tier now) being better than him. I'd say :ultlucario::ulticeclimbers: and :ultdk: arguably got more nerfed from this patch (indirectly) than Doc, especially DK.

I mean, if you think about it, almost all of his winning matchups after this patch are against the characters we can all probably agree are most likely still low tiers (:ultlucario::ultganondorf::ultlittlemac::ultincineroar:).

If you look at these last two patches, you can see that almost all of DK's OK matchups were buffed.

  • :ultincineroar: still most likely loses, but it's much closer to even than it was before.
  • :ultkrool::ultkirby::ultjigglypuff::ultdoc::ultcloud::ultcorrin::ultmewtwo::ultmarth::ultpit::ultdarkpit: and :ultike: are all characters he probably went even with or slightly won against prior to these past two patches that are all now even or losing for him.
  • He loses to :ultbayonetta::ultzelda::ultisabelle::ultkingdedede::ultmetaknight::ultpiranha::ultryu::ultfalcon::ultken::ultsamus: and :ultsheik: even harder.
  • :ulttoonlink::ultvillager: and :ultwiifittrainer: were so bad for DK prior to their buffs (in my opinion at least) that I'd argue their buffs don't make too much of a difference.
  • :ultyounglink: and :ultfalco: were already two of DK's worst matchups. Now both of those matchups might be in contention for the worst matchup in the game (if they weren't already).
:ultdk: just can't keep up. He needs a better disadvantage or recovery or something. Yes, he has ding dong on some stages, but it's still situational and confined to much more specific percent windows than Smash 4. And DK doesn't have as strong of a punish game as the other bad characters like :ultlittlemac::ultganondorf::ultincineroar: or the fear factor of any of those three as well as :ultlucario: and :ulticeclimbers:. The only reason I think he's better than those 5 I just listed is that his kit is just overall more well rounded, but this character is so abysmal it hurts. IMO Incineroar might be better than him now (even if he is low tier) which is something I never would have said before this patch.

My opinions on this character have gone in the gutter since Ult released. Initially, he was a high tier, then maybe a top tier, then a high tier, then a low mid tier and then he got buffed and I thought he could be good. But when compared to the rest of the characters who have been buffed, his weaknesses weren't dealt with whatsoever and his strengths weren't improved enough by his changes for it to matter. The last nail in the coffin for this character (at least in his current state) was buffing almost everyone in the cast that he could reasonably contest with over the last 2 patches. This character is garbage and feels like such a downgrade from every other Smash game (except maybe 64). Even if he was linear and one-dimensional in Smash 4, at least he was fun to play as and was a solid character. I really hope this character gets buffed but like :ultganondorf: and :ultlittlemac:, I feel like his weaknesses are too hard for newcomers to exploit for that to happen.
 
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StrangeKitten

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:ultdk:'s range and speed are excellent for a super heavy. It's a shame he still feels so bad. He really needs something to help his abysmal disadvantage and recovery. If his recovery was a lot better, it may go a long way towards making DK a lot better. I'm able to get a lot of good edgeguards with :ultincineroar: because while his recovery is bad, Cross Chop is at least good enough to let me go just deep enough. DK could really use a similar recovery buff
 
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Rocketjay8

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 14, 2018
Messages
300
:ultdk:'s range and speed are excellent for a super heavy. It's a shame he still feels so bad. He really needs something to help his abysmal disadvantage and recovery. If his recovery was a lot better, it may go a long way towards making DK a lot better. I'm able to get a lot of good edgeguards with :ultincineroar: because while his recovery is bad, Cross Chop is at least good enough to let me go just deep enough. DK could really use a similar recovery buff
:ultdk:'s range doesn't matter that much when his tilts aren't safe on hit on low percents. Something that is still not addressed in patches
 

StrangeKitten

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 25, 2020
Messages
965
Location
Pokemon Stadium 2
:ultdk:'s range doesn't matter that much when his tilts aren't safe on hit on low percents. Something that is still not addressed in patches
Mhm, another fix poor DK needs. Almost feels like they wanted him to be bad at this point. I hope they finally fix a lot of his issues someday. Bad disadvantage is something I'm not sure there's much that can be done about, but the tilts and recovery can definitely be fixed.
 

Cap'n Jack

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 23, 2015
Messages
1,195
Really feeling :ultkrool:‘s new krown toss buff. Especially when I play against him as :ultbanjokazooie:. The greneggs don’t disrupt the croc as much any more and forces the bear and bird to play slightly differently in that match up.
 

Thinkaman

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*sigh*

It's been about a year since this terrible dumpster fire:

Alright, let's have a quick chat, and be done with it.

A top Smash player, Ally, has admitted to accusations of dating another prominent Smash player, who was a minor. Ally has declared he is retiring from Smash immediately.

This subforum is an inappropriate place to discuss virtually any aspect of this scenario. I am going to enumerate some reflections intended to "close the book" and provide guidance for how this incident should be referenced in posting both within the subforum and on the rest of Smashboards.
  • Avoid discussing the legality of the situation. Neither you nor anyone you are arguing with on the Internet is a lawyer.
  • The central issue is that this behavior is incompatible with the ethical expectations of our community. We stand against predatory behavior and expect judgment of a certain calibur from everyone, but even higher from that of the public "faces" of our community. Violating this jepordizes not just the safety and feelings of safety of members of our community, but also the business relationships, sponsorships, and event associations that our scene depend on.
  • I personally do not believe Ally is at significant risk of "dating" another underage Smash player--that fear is not why he must leave the community. (And, he must.) It is because we must be clear about the values of our community, and allow no ambiguity that this behavior will ever be excused.
  • It is possible to recognize Ally as a victim (of his own making) while still regarding him as 100% at fault.
  • It is possible to recognize Ally's confession and retirement as an isolated right decision, while still regarding him as 100% at fault.
  • Avoid criticizing the person who brought these public accusations to light. Manipulative relationships, including all liasons with minors, should be escalated to authorities in all cases--and to the public if authorities do not do their job. It seems possible that this situation was handled less-than-ideally, or that the person reporting had less-than-ideal intentions. Neither changes the previous.
  • Avoid criticizing the victim. Avoid naming the victim for no reason. Yes, that information is out there, it's everywhere. Be different, be better.
  • Avoid open speculation on the impact Ally's absence will have on the meta, rankings, character development. Have some tact.
  • You can still discuss Ally's playstyle, VODs, tournament record, ect. (And in this subforum, this is the only thing on-topic.) You can still listen to R. Kelly tracks and watch Polanski flicks. It does not require much cognative dissonance to separate the art from the artist, as they say.
  • Edit: Now might not be the best time to reminisce on your favorite Ally sets, though. Again: tact.
If any of this is unclear or you have any questions, feel free to contact me. Otherwise, consider this the first and last warning: Off-topic posting regarding this incident will be considered "Inappropriate Content" by the mod team (rather than just spam) and dealt with harshly in accordance with site rules.
Well, as it turns out, everything is terrible, all the time.

Lots of known players and community figures are "cancelled", which is Twitter-speak for "statutory rapist." We can count our blessings that at least the vast majority of these are open-and-shut cases, with confessions, mountains of evidence, or both. We are deprived of both the anguish of a public trial and the hope that maybe people we respect aren't actually monsters.

I could copy-paste those guidelines for each new exposed incident. Nairo. Kietaro. D1. Xzax. Venia. S2H. Cinnpie. Mr. Wizard. I'd be here all day and no one would read it, so just pretend I did instead. Use good judgement to determine the nuances that might call for minor differences in attitude towards each given situation. (If you aren't sure, err on the side of not talking about it--which is already the default given that all of these incidents themselves are inherently off-topic for this forum.)

My only addition is:
  • Avoid comparing different cases. It is dangerously easy for this to be interpretted as dismissing the "not as bad" one.


While I have a hostage audience, I am going to impose my broader thoughts on the matter on anyone who wishes to keep reading this post. Yes, this is off-topic, yes, if you respond to this or otherwise continue the discussion you will be modded. The town bylaws say that moderators are permitted one (1) soapbox per dozen public figures exposed as rapists, so let's all just hope this doesn't become the first in a trilogy.



First, don't **** kids.

I can't believe I'm having to say that, but holy ****. Even putting morality itself aside, the level of judgement needed to not **** a kid is a super low bar.



Second, let's kill the elephant in the room: 90%+ of these reported incidents that escalated physically involve alcohol.

Whatever you're about to protest, shut up. Cause and fault are distinct. The opera, alleyways, and wealth inequality in Gotham City were all enabling causes to the death of Batman's parents, and acknowledging them does not remove 1% of the fault from Joe Chill, okay? We're not victim-blaming Thomas and Martha Wayne when we install better lighting at the rear exit. We call that actually trying to find a solution to prevent future crime.

Bringing the hammer of justice down on Joe Chill is the right thing to do, but that's just addressing fault. It does basically nothing to prevent the next alleyway mugging-gone-wrong. Look, all of these rapist and pedophiles knew that ****ing a kid was wrong. Maybe all this attention puts a bit more fear into the next would-be rapist, but let's be real: people are people and all of this will happen again given the chance. Huge prison sentences are already on the table, and you think fear of Twitter is going to be what effects good judgement? No--fault and justice are its own thing, entirely separate from causes and solutions.

So, alcohol. It turns out--get this--that alcohol is sometimes involved with incidents involving astoundingly poor judgement. In fact, a lot. It makes attackers more likely to attack, victims more vulnerable, and bystanders more useless. It makes everyone's recollections and evidence terrible. And worst of all, it's a positive feedback loop: Among the bad decisions that often take place under the influence of alcohol are "drinking more alcohol", "encouraging others to drink more alcohol", and especially "giving alcohol to minors."

You know that Onion article that gets reposted after every mass shooting? "'No Way To Prevent This,' Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens"? That's how I feel about alcohol and sexual assualt. Look, approximately 90 percent of rapes perpetrated by an acquaintance of the victim involve alcohol. Oh gee, that number matches what we roughly see with all these incidents. This ain't a mystery Scooby Doo! Thing-that-causes-bad-judgement-leads-to-bad-judgement, news at 11.

Stop having alcohol at events with minors. Stop having alcohol at events that might, maybe have a minor. Stop having drugs and alcohol at majors, full-stop, no exceptions. Stop having """parties""" like you're B-list villains in a 90s teen movie. Stop using a children's video game as a context to get hammered.

Stop creating environments that enable people to exercise poor judgement.
Stop creating environments that enable people to commit felonies.
Stop creating environments that enable people to **** kids.




Third, and this is petty small potatoes, but I never want to hear another peep out of anyone as to the grand mystery of why Nintendo doesn't "support the scene."

Mother ******, they are a $60 billion family-focused brand and you have the audacity to be upset that they aren't funding your pedophile ring as much as you would like? It's astounding they see fit to sponsor any tournaments at all or deputize any players at all as "Brand Ambassadors."

"For all the Smash community does for Nintendo?" Oops, turns out the guy you put on stage at E3 2018 was a statutory sex offender! Or were you referring to rampant emulation and piracy, and the Melee crowd being upset that Nintendo might have any problem with this? Or how when Nintendo does go to the trouble of finding and vetting a diamond in the rough like Vikki, the comments section inevitably goes full 4chan?

The house is burning down, the rest of the gaming community is not surprised at all, and there was ever any confusion as to why a G-rated company known for their business expertise and legal paranoia wants to keep us precisely at a Min Min arm's length?



Man, I didn't need this. No one needed this. **** people who **** kids. I need some ibuprofen.










Isabelle dash attack late-hit now combos into dash attack at very low-%s, which is a superior combo starter into followup fairs that ought to be more DI resistant. So at least there's that. Talk about that.
 

The_Bookworm

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 10, 2018
Messages
2,674
??
Did something like this happen again?
I have heard that there is a little sourness in some people's mouths in a few recent YouTube comment sections, but I am not quite sure what happened.

Edit: Nvm, I figured out what happened. Multiple big faces in the community....

It feels like the world is falling apart around me day by day as time goes on.
I suggest you guys read through Thinkaman's post word by word. This is becoming more and more a serious and depressing issue within the Smash community, heck even outside the Smash community.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now back in topic, here is a few other observations I found with :ultminmin.
  • Grounded up B straight up doesn't put her into freefall. I know a lot of us in this thread knows that, but I have seen others not quite know that, so I am putting it out there. As such, thanks to the move's invincibility, this can be used as an potential escape option, although this is limited by the fact that her air speed is poor.
  • Aerial up B seems is weak on face value, but it can be used as an emergency KO option at higher percents if the opponent is close to the blastzone. It is a viable option for those unaware by this.
  • Aerial up B is unique among tether recoveries in that it seems more vertical than horizontal based. This, combined with Min Min's long reached moves, can allow her to go deep in recoveries if ledgetrapping does not work. However, this comes at the cost of her recovery being more weak than most other tether recoveries, as it won't go very off horizontally, which is also combined with Min Min's poor air speed.
  • There is an odd glitch going around with Min Min and the final flash, as there is a chance that she can be stuck in the forward smash pose. The dragon tracking physics also gets a little wonky. She can move around and use other moves, and eventually unstuck herself, but I am just this out there just so you guys be aware of it.
As time goes on, by viewpoint on Min Min's viability is now in an uncertain state. It doesn't help that we won't have any offline tournaments happening anytime soon.
 
Last edited:

SwagGuy99

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 28, 2016
Messages
654
*sigh*

It's been about a year since this terrible dumpster fire:



Well, as it turns out, everything is terrible, all the time.

Lots of known players and community figures are "cancelled", which is Twitter-speak for "statutory rapist." We can count our blessings that at least the vast majority of these are open-and-shut cases, with confessions, mountains of evidence, or both. We are deprived of both the anguish of a public trial and the hope that maybe people we respect aren't actually monsters.

I could copy-paste those guidelines for each new exposed incident. Nairo. Kietaro. D1. Xzax. Venia. S2H. Cinnpie. Mr. Wizard. I'd be here all day and no one would read it, so just pretend I did instead. Use good judgement to determine the nuances that might call for minor differences in attitude towards each given situation. (If you aren't sure, err on the side of not talking about it--which is already the default given that all of these incidents themselves are inherently off-topic for this forum.)

My only addition is:
  • Avoid comparing different cases. It is dangerously easy for this to be interpretted as dismissing the "not as bad" one.


While I have a hostage audience, I am going to impose my broader thoughts on the matter on anyone who wishes to keep reading this post. Yes, this is off-topic, yes, if you respond to this or otherwise continue the discussion you will be modded. The town bylaws say that moderators are permitted one (1) soapbox per dozen public figures exposed as rapists, so let's all just hope this doesn't become the first in a trilogy.



First, don't **** kids.

I can't believe I'm having to say that, but holy ****. Even putting morality itself aside, the level of judgement needed to not **** a kid is a super low bar.



Second, let's kill the elephant in the room: 90%+ of these reported incidents that escalated physically involve alcohol.

Whatever you're about to protest, shut up. Cause and fault are distinct. The opera, alleyways, and wealth inequality in Gotham City were all enabling causes to the death of Batman's parents, and acknowledging them does not remove 1% of the fault from Joe Chill, okay? We're not victim-blaming Thomas and Martha Wayne when we install better lighting at the rear exit. We call that actually trying to find a solution to prevent future crime.

Bringing the hammer of justice down on Joe Chill is the right thing to do, but that's just addressing fault. It does basically nothing to prevent the next alleyway mugging-gone-wrong. Look, all of these rapist and pedophiles knew that ****ing a kid was wrong. Maybe all this attention puts a bit more fear into the next would-be rapist, but let's be real: people are people and all of this will happen again given the chance. Huge prison sentences are already on the table, and you think fear of Twitter is going to be what effects good judgement? No--fault and justice are its own thing, entirely separate from causes and solutions.

So, alcohol. It turns out--get this--that alcohol is sometimes involved with incidents involving astoundingly poor judgement. In fact, a lot. It makes attackers more likely to attack, victims more vulnerable, and bystanders more useless. It makes everyone's recollections and evidence terrible. And worst of all, it's a positive feedback loop: Among the bad decisions that often take place under the influence of alcohol are "drinking more alcohol", "encouraging others to drink more alcohol", and especially "giving alcohol to minors."

You know that Onion article that gets reposted after every mass shooting? "'No Way To Prevent This,' Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens"? That's how I feel about alcohol and sexual assualt. Look, approximately 90 percent of rapes perpetrated by an acquaintance of the victim involve alcohol. Oh gee, that number matches what we roughly see with all these incidents. This ain't a mystery Scooby Doo! Thing-that-causes-bad-judgement-leads-to-bad-judgement, news at 11.

Stop having alcohol at events with minors. Stop having alcohol at events that might, maybe have a minor. Stop having drugs and alcohol at majors, full-stop, no exceptions. Stop having """parties""" like you're B-list villains in a 90s teen movie. Stop using a children's video game as a context to get hammered.

Stop creating environments that enable people to exercise poor judgement.
Stop creating environments that enable people to commit felonies.
Stop creating environments that enable people to **** kids.




Third, and this is petty small potatoes, but I never want to hear another peep out of anyone as to the grand mystery of why Nintendo doesn't "support the scene."

Mother ******, they are a $60 billion family-focused brand and you have the audacity to be upset that they aren't funding your pedophile ring as much as you would like? It's astounding they see fit to sponsor any tournaments at all or deputize any players at all as "Brand Ambassadors."

"For all the Smash community does for Nintendo?" Oops, turns out the guy you put on stage at E3 2018 was a statutory sex offender! Or were you referring to rampant emulation and piracy, and the Melee crowd being upset that Nintendo might have any problem with this? Or how when Nintendo does go to the trouble of finding and vetting a diamond in the rough like Vikki, the comments section inevitably goes full 4chan?

The house is burning down, the rest of the gaming community is not surprised at all, and there was ever any confusion as to why a G-rated company known for their business expertise and legal paranoia wants to keep us precisely at a Min Min arm's length?



Man, I didn't need this. No one needed this. **** people who **** kids. I need some ibuprofen.
I have nothing else to say here, you're pretty spot on. I think Leffen is totally right. We've got to grow as a community and look at the bright side. People being weeded out for what they've done isn't bad, it's good, it just sucks that they had to do those things in the first place.
 
Last edited:

Vyrnx

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 11, 2014
Messages
639
Location
KY/NC
One thing I'd like to add, if I'm allowed, that I feel is important:

When I was a young kid, Smashboards was the only thing I used the internet for (well before I had an account). Eventually I started using places like Reddit and Twitter to get Smash news generally considered off-topic for this site. To this day that's really the only reason I use those sites. I can tell from some of your posts that a few of you are in the same boat.

These sites aren't moderated in the way Smashboards is. I'm always struck by the horrible comments I see on these topics getting significant upvotes, likes, retweets, and general attention. Victim-blaming, defense of pedophiles, sexism, homophobia, everything awful. Those comments are controlled here, but not there. Please be better. This is a way in which our community needs to grow--hugely. Read Smash news, but be sharp, use your brain, read into what people are really saying, and don't support this kind of degeneracy.
 
Last edited:

The_Bookworm

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 10, 2018
Messages
2,674
Ok, time to shift away from conversation of the incidents. This is not quite a thread to really talk about it.


:ultminmin can apparently lag cancel the landing lag on her short hop aerial Smash attacks by using grounded up B.

And this is a PSA for :ultpit: players.


Never thought Pit in any Smash game, aside from his Brawl arrows, would obtain sauce, but we live in strange times.
 
Last edited:

SwagGuy99

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 28, 2016
Messages
654
Ok, time to shift away from conversation of the incidents. This is not quite a thread to really talk about it.


:ultminmin can apparently lag cancel the landing lag on her short hop aerial Smash attacks by using grounded up B.

And this is a PSA for :ultpit: players.


Never thought Pit in any Smash game, aside from his Brawl arrows, would obtain sauce, but we live in strange times.
Yeah, :ultpit: and :ultdarkpit: getting a gameplan is huge for them, even if that gameplan is fish for this one confirm or maybe a d-smash at higher percents. Getting a new combo tool in d-tilt, improving their down-b's use as sort of a niche second shield, and improving the knockback on up-smash helps them too. Despite the up-smash buffs though, I'd argue d-smash and d-tilt > up-air matter more since they are more reliable since up-smash still has the fall out issues afik. In my opinion, these changes make :ultpit:/:ultdarkpit: much better overall, and I think they are easily mid tiers now. I hesitate to say they're better than that, especially since there were other characters who got buffed that I think they may have worse matchups against now (:ultmetaknight::ultbayonetta::ultkingdedede: and :ultfalco: are all characters I can see doing a bit better against them now) but these changes were big for them, even if they weren't the biggest winners of the patch overall.
 

Thinkaman

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Thinkaman
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I am normally "against" online play, but if any regular posters in this thread from North America want to explore the buffs or Min Min consider this a rare opportunity. Today might be the only day in my life that online play could be a relaxing and less frustrating outlet. God save me, I have a stress ulcer.
 

Iron Maw

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Sep 7, 2014
Messages
125
NNID
ironmaw
3DS FC
1091-8076-0883
Following a bit of Thinkaman Thinkaman 's lead I thought I would post these matched I just caught on Min Min a few hours ago:


 

The_Bookworm

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 10, 2018
Messages
2,674
Following a bit of Thinkaman Thinkaman 's lead I thought I would post these matched I just caught on Min Min a few hours ago:


While this is far from the highest level we are going to see from :ultminmin, it does provide some valuable info about the character.
  • Her recovery does seem weaker than expected. Her up B doesn't go quite as far as she would hope for, and her air speed is poor. It does help that she is a heavyweight, therefore she has higher than average survivalbility, but this rather lackluster recovery does put a cap on it.
  • As expected, her Ramram is going to be her main neutral tool thanks to its speed and angles it covers. Megawatt nair can also help with this. Her Dragon laser is another helpful tool in the neutral, although it is going to be more relegated to edgeguarding. Overall, similar to PkMn Trainer, Min Min always has a reason to use each of her three arms in different scenarios.
  • I do find that having both arms be Dragons to be rather pointless. Having one arm be Dragon seems to be enough for her gameplan to flourish, and having both arms be Dragons means that you lose out on the benefits of having Ramram and Megawatt immediately at your disposal. Outside of niche edgeguarding scenarios, in which it can be helpful, your left arm most likely is going to be Ramram or Megawatt at all times.
 

Thinkaman

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There are situations where Ramram isn't safe or Dragon is enough to kill, but Megawatt is too slow to be desired. Double Dragon probably has the best simple alternating one-two punches for some criteria, and obviously double laser is nasty against anyone dumb enough to keep fighting Min Min from the opposite sight of the stage.

It might also be relevant in doubles, though I find myself using mostly Megawatt in my explorations there.
 

Nobie

Smash Champion
Joined
Sep 27, 2002
Messages
2,137
NNID
SDShamshel
3DS FC
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Min Min's Up B is interesting to me because while it is an escape option, it has very little horizontal movement, and isn't helped by her poor air mobility. It's not lIke Mega Man or Sonic, who shoot straight up but can juke in the air. And it's not like a teleport character who can just get out of Dodge (the metaphorical place, not the action). Up B seriously a risky move to use on FD and Kalos, and even with platforms, it's not necessarily great.

The other curious thing is that you can launch yourself slightly forwards with Up B but NOT backwards, so it has no potential for retreating unless you actively turn yourself around first. Is it meant to kind of cross the opponent up, then? And while Min Min has to be backwards to use it as a "move away" tool, she can also easily attack while turned around in a way most characters can't—even those with spammable back-airs.
 

Thinkaman

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Min Min's Up B is interesting to me because while it is an escape option, it has very little horizontal movement, and isn't helped by her poor air mobility. It's not lIke Mega Man or Sonic, who shoot straight up but can juke in the air. And it's not like a teleport character who can just get out of Dodge (the metaphorical place, not the action). Up B seriously a risky move to use on FD and Kalos, and even with platforms, it's not necessarily great.

The other curious thing is that you can launch yourself slightly forwards with Up B but NOT backwards, so it has no potential for retreating unless you actively turn yourself around first. Is it meant to kind of cross the opponent up, then? And while Min Min has to be backwards to use it as a "move away" tool, she can also easily attack while turned around in a way most characters can't—even those with spammable back-airs.
You can use it to cancel landing lag from smash aerials apparently, which is a really unusual emergency juke.
 

PK Gaming

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 25, 2012
Messages
1,240
Location
Canada
Min MIn seriously crumples to pressure, woof

She's still got stupid moves, but her "only okay" OoS options, godawful movement and abysmal recovery really holds her back

She's going to struggle against the likes of Mario, Joker, etc
 

ARISTOS

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 1, 2016
Messages
719
Location
The Empire
*sigh*

It's been about a year since this terrible dumpster fire:



Well, as it turns out, everything is terrible, all the time.

Lots of known players and community figures are "cancelled", which is Twitter-speak for "statutory rapist." We can count our blessings that at least the vast majority of these are open-and-shut cases, with confessions, mountains of evidence, or both. We are deprived of both the anguish of a public trial and the hope that maybe people we respect aren't actually monsters.

I could copy-paste those guidelines for each new exposed incident. Nairo. Kietaro. D1. Xzax. Venia. S2H. Cinnpie. Mr. Wizard. I'd be here all day and no one would read it, so just pretend I did instead. Use good judgement to determine the nuances that might call for minor differences in attitude towards each given situation. (If you aren't sure, err on the side of not talking about it--which is already the default given that all of these incidents themselves are inherently off-topic for this forum.)

My only addition is:
  • Avoid comparing different cases. It is dangerously easy for this to be interpretted as dismissing the "not as bad" one.


While I have a hostage audience, I am going to impose my broader thoughts on the matter on anyone who wishes to keep reading this post. Yes, this is off-topic, yes, if you respond to this or otherwise continue the discussion you will be modded. The town bylaws say that moderators are permitted one (1) soapbox per dozen public figures exposed as rapists, so let's all just hope this doesn't become the first in a trilogy.



First, don't **** kids.

I can't believe I'm having to say that, but holy ****. Even putting morality itself aside, the level of judgement needed to not **** a kid is a super low bar.



Second, let's kill the elephant in the room: 90%+ of these reported incidents that escalated physically involve alcohol.

Whatever you're about to protest, shut up. Cause and fault are distinct. The opera, alleyways, and wealth inequality in Gotham City were all enabling causes to the death of Batman's parents, and acknowledging them does not remove 1% of the fault from Joe Chill, okay? We're not victim-blaming Thomas and Martha Wayne when we install better lighting at the rear exit. We call that actually trying to find a solution to prevent future crime.

Bringing the hammer of justice down on Joe Chill is the right thing to do, but that's just addressing fault. It does basically nothing to prevent the next alleyway mugging-gone-wrong. Look, all of these rapist and pedophiles knew that ****ing a kid was wrong. Maybe all this attention puts a bit more fear into the next would-be rapist, but let's be real: people are people and all of this will happen again given the chance. Huge prison sentences are already on the table, and you think fear of Twitter is going to be what effects good judgement? No--fault and justice are its own thing, entirely separate from causes and solutions.

So, alcohol. It turns out--get this--that alcohol is sometimes involved with incidents involving astoundingly poor judgement. In fact, a lot. It makes attackers more likely to attack, victims more vulnerable, and bystanders more useless. It makes everyone's recollections and evidence terrible. And worst of all, it's a positive feedback loop: Among the bad decisions that often take place under the influence of alcohol are "drinking more alcohol", "encouraging others to drink more alcohol", and especially "giving alcohol to minors."

You know that Onion article that gets reposted after every mass shooting? "'No Way To Prevent This,' Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens"? That's how I feel about alcohol and sexual assualt. Look, approximately 90 percent of rapes perpetrated by an acquaintance of the victim involve alcohol. Oh gee, that number matches what we roughly see with all these incidents. This ain't a mystery Scooby Doo! Thing-that-causes-bad-judgement-leads-to-bad-judgement, news at 11.

Stop having alcohol at events with minors. Stop having alcohol at events that might, maybe have a minor. Stop having drugs and alcohol at majors, full-stop, no exceptions. Stop having """parties""" like you're B-list villains in a 90s teen movie. Stop using a children's video game as a context to get hammered.

Stop creating environments that enable people to exercise poor judgement.
Stop creating environments that enable people to commit felonies.
Stop creating environments that enable people to **** kids.




Third, and this is petty small potatoes, but I never want to hear another peep out of anyone as to the grand mystery of why Nintendo doesn't "support the scene."

Mother ******, they are a $60 billion family-focused brand and you have the audacity to be upset that they aren't funding your pedophile ring as much as you would like? It's astounding they see fit to sponsor any tournaments at all or deputize any players at all as "Brand Ambassadors."

"For all the Smash community does for Nintendo?" Oops, turns out the guy you put on stage at E3 2018 was a statutory sex offender! Or were you referring to rampant emulation and piracy, and the Melee crowd being upset that Nintendo might have any problem with this? Or how when Nintendo does go to the trouble of finding and vetting a diamond in the rough like Vikki, the comments section inevitably goes full 4chan?

The house is burning down, the rest of the gaming community is not surprised at all, and there was ever any confusion as to why a G-rated company known for their business expertise and legal paranoia wants to keep us precisely at a Min Min arm's length?



Man, I didn't need this. No one needed this. **** people who **** kids. I need some ibuprofen.










Isabelle dash attack late-hit now combos into dash attack at very low-%s, which is a superior combo starter into followup fairs that ought to be more DI resistant. So at least there's that. Talk about that.
Hopefully I'm not speaking out of place here - it's a been a long 48 hours.

My advice to everyone is to watch Suar and Devon's Twitch VOD about the Smash community's behavior, and how things from what happened to Hyuga to Smash Sisters to the events today are related and how it's misplaced to believe these are just the acts of one off people. The community creates the space to allow these things to happen and moving forward we need to be better at setting clear and sharp boundaries.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/668303862








Speaking on 8.0, I really like the dtilt change to Pit - it gives him a strong option out of dash (he had several but this is less punishable by shield) with good reward. He overall feels a ton better to play
 

$.A.F.

Smash Journeyman
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And the heads keep rolling. Honestly how hard is it not to be a creep to kids?

Actually sort of on that note, how do you think Palutena’s meta will be affected now that her number one player is gone? Personally I think she’ll experience a situation similar to snake and slowly but surely move down the tier list. Obviously there are many more high profile Palutena players than snake but none near the level of N***o.
 
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