Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Firox]

And now for something new!--pop quiz time! Since we're all stuck at home anyway.

Today's question is: why is Roy considered faster than Lucina?

Background:

• Roy is most famed for his initial dash, since 2.2 is indeed enormous--but Lucina's is ever so slightly higher, at 2.255.
• She has 60% higher air accel (0.08 vs. 0.05).
• Her startup is also lower on key moves like f-air. Roy has lower endlag.
• Lucina has a super fast OOS option
• Roy leads in air speed (1.3 vs. 1.0) and run speed (2.145 vs 1.964), but you rarely use these in neutral.
  • Mostly, the air speed helps Roy land and recover, but Lucina is already way better at recovering by virtue of their up-bs.
  • The run speed difference won't be noticeable in a real game, except sometimes to trap landings and reach the ledge in time to ledgetrap. Their initial dashes are so huge that they just use that instead anyway.
• Now you might be thinking that maybe Roy's reward creates the illusion of speed, but Lucina actually gets similar reward--a Lucina b-air does 11.8% whether tipped or bladed, compared to a Roy b-air that does 12% bladed. Roy gets more confirms onstage, but Lucina gets more edgeguards, so that shouldn't be the difference-maker either.
• The last thing worth noting is that Roy falls fast and Lucina is floaty.

Out of this entire list of comparisons, Roy is only "faster" in one important way--fall speed. That alone shouldn't create the impression that Roy is faster. So what's going on here? What is it about Roy that makes him seem so much faster?

Hint: it's not just that Roy players are aggressive. It has something to do with the numbers.

Interestingly, I pulled up their frame data and Lucina's attacks are actually equal to or faster than pretty much all of Roy's corresponding options. Now I'm really interested to know why Roy is perceived as faster. Could the fall speed and shorter endlag really be all there is to it?

 

[ZephyrZ]

Well low endlag can help with shield pressure, and combine with a good fall speed it can allow you to throw out more aerials in quick succession. I find a good fall speed to also be good for getting around projectiles a bit better, since you aren't forced to stay in the air as long when you jump over them.

A good fall speed can also be useful for juggling in advantage. You can throw out, say, a Uair for pressure, then if they avoid it you can immedietly land and try to punish their landing option. That's also one of the reasons Fox's Uair can be so scary.

 

[NairWizard]

Oh, sorry, guess I framed the question wrong. By "pop quiz," I mean, I omitted something in the body of my post which answers the question. It's not fall speed or endlag. There is something else concrete going on here.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Is it Gravity then? According to the the snash wiki and Kurogane Hammer, Roy has a fairly high gravity while Lucina has one of the lowest.

That's the only obscure movement stat I can think of, aside from rolls (which they tie in) and walk speed (which Lucina wins at).

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Yeeaaaahhhh you say you omitted something but I don't see what. Your post is so thorough that if there's something missing in it it's hard to tell because it's such a small detail.

 

[mimgrim]

My guess would be that on average he kills faster, but that's the only think I can think of off the top of my head that's missing in the list. At work so don't have time to actually look into it lol.

 

[Arthur97]

Perhaps it's that Roy seems faster due to his playstyle. That, and some mobility aspects may give the illusion that he is just faster. A rushdown fighter after all will probably look faster than one that keeps their distance.

 

[san.]

I think it's a mixture of having fast specs all around, as well as the ability to return to the ground quickly from a short or full hop. Many of the Marth-based FE characters linger in the air a few frames longer than other characters before they can fast-fall, delaying their optimal offensive timing by that many frames. Even a difference of 2-3 frames before you can fast-fall makes a huge difference, since it delays when you can optimally apply offensive pressure.

Ground speed is also much faster than air speed, so the longer you're stuck in the air, the slower you feel overall. You have more options to choose when to attack and maneuver around the opponent.

 

[Djmarcus44]

My guess would be that Roy has a lower and quicker shorthop/fullhop than Lucina. Roy's shorthop is 30 frames, and his full hop is 44 frames. His jump heights are 13 and 30.97 for a short hop and a full hop. Lucina's shorthop is 41 frames while her full hop is 55 frames. Lucina's jump heights are 16.26 and 33.66 for a short hop and a full hop. This allows Roy to hit opponents with rising and falling aerials faster. Basically these are the numbers behind what san. said.

 

[ARISTOS]

Like san. and D Djmarcus44 stated, it's the short hop which is a big difference maker.

 

[SwagGuy99]

My guess would be that on average he kills faster, but that's the only think I can think of off the top of my head that's missing in the list. At work so don't have time to actually look into it lol.

's combo game is also arguably superior to 's and his combos in general deal more damage and while Lucina does have good combo finishers, Roy does as well, with side-b in particular killing at ludicrously early percents at the ledge.

Edit: Side-b is the combo finisher I was talking about, if that wasn't clear.

 

[Firox]

Like san. and D Djmarcus44 stated, it's the short hop which is a big difference maker.

Yeah, I'm starting to think that's what it is. Consider the fact that Lucina's short hop Nair doesn't connect nearly as well or as consistently as Roy's does. He can string multiple Nairs together which look visually faster and more menacing than Lucina's single rising or landing Fairs. In addition, the fast falling short hops allow for tighter projectile pressure which creates a more smothering playstyle.

 

[Thinkaman]

I held back from posting, but yeah short hop was my immediate thought. Lucina SH is 41 frames to Roy's 30, huge difference.

 

[NairWizard]

The short hop answer is mostly correct, but A Arthur97 is also right.

The crux of it is the delay in the swing. Characters with faster short hops usually feel faster because they have less delay. For example, Fox feels much faster than Wolf--even though they both have the same initial dash and air accel, and Wolf has more air speed. Part of this is because of Fox's dash attack, but it's mostly because Fox's short hop height is 24 compared to Wolf's 30. It makes a huge difference not just for pressure, but also for mixups--it's hard to react to what Fox does out of a jump because the Fox can just fast fall, land, and do nothing (with fastfall, Fox only commits 17 frames in the air if he short hops).

For Lucina and Roy, there's one additional insight needed to piece everything together--they're comparably fast, for the most part, but they're using their mobility to do different things.

If you look at the raw numbers, you'll see that they're both very safe on shield--their frame data is full of -4s and -6s. But not all shield safety is created equal. Roy's shield safety happens when he's sweetspotting, hitting his blade. Lucina's shield safety applies at the tip. Meaning, if Lucina is up close, she can't swing if her opponent is in a position to shield, because she'll get punished for her swing. Roy, on the other hand, can swing even up close, or out of a spotdodge, or after rolling behind you. Just check out d-tilt--Roy's sweetspot d-tilt is -3 on shield. That's actually pretty insane, and Lucina has nothing comparable. Her f5 jab is -16 on shield.

What this means is that Roy is frequently using his mobility to get closer to you, or just outright bursting toward you.

Meanwhile, Lucina is using her mobility to fade back from you.

This makes it seem like Roy is much faster, because Lucina is frequently taking two steps forward and then one step back, while Roy is taking three forward.

The difference in short hop/full hop time is crucial to this. For evidence, watch how Leo plays Lucina and Marth. He'll dash away from you, dash toward you, then, right at the end of the initial dash forward, he'll jump and wait until he gets in position to swing. Here's one of these waits in action: https://youtu.be/aElnFDOzxH4?t=52.

Depending on where you shield, he might even change how he uses the followup aerial. Here's an example vs. Larry's Wolf: https://youtu.be/eAGtwdUUnUI?t=193 where Leo actually crosses Larry up based on where Larry was shielding.

Leo uses Marth/Lucina's additional hangtime in the air to make a snap-reaction based on how you've spaced. During that extra air time, he could be fading back, deciding to fast fall, or something else entirely, but the key is that Roy can't do this even with a double jump, since his air accel isn't high enough to get a sufficient fade back effect.

As a result, traditional sword zoning is much harder to do with Roy--but the tradeoff here is that Roy is really good against whiff punishers who usually beat traditional sword zoning.

For example, ZSS is really good at whiff punishing swords in this game--but of the swordsmen, Roy (not Chrom, not Lucina, not Marth) is one of her hardest matchups. Why is that? Because Roy runs up to her, shields or spotdodges or rolls, and then mashes jab and d-tilt and OOS options that she can't whiff punish. This is something that other swordsmen simply can't do.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Perhaps it's that Roy seems faster due to his playstyle. That, and some mobility aspects may give the illusion that he is just faster. A rushdown fighter after all will probably look faster than one that keeps their distance.

I agree with this exactly. With Roy, it's not just his mobility, it's also his delivery. Lucina is a way more patient character compared to Roy and her father. Roy has to be played way more aggressively than Lucina.

As a Diddy main, I believe we win the Lucina matchup because of the more patient approach Lucina has compared to Roy. Lucina players tend to give me way more room than Roy players. However I think Lucina is even Vs Diddy if she plays aggressive, which she also can deliver with her kit. Not sure who's better honestly, but I think on paper Lucina looks like a stronger character than Roy and Chrom. Results speak in favour to Roy, but I think that might wane a little eventually. Lucina however has remained significant throughout the whole meta of Ultimate, so I think that helps her keep being relevant.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Well gravity does play a factor in your short hop height and duration, so I was still halfway correct.

 

[Arthur97]

I agree with this exactly. With Roy, it's not just his mobility, it's also his delivery. Lucina is a way more patient character compared to Roy and her father. Roy has to be played way more aggressively than Lucina.

As a Diddy main, I believe we win the Lucina matchup because of the more patient approach Lucina has compared to Roy. Lucina players tend to give me way more room than Roy players. However I think Lucina is even Vs Diddy if she plays aggressive, which she also can deliver with her kit. Not sure who's better honestly, but I think on paper Lucina looks like a stronger character than Roy and Chrom. Results speak in favour to Roy, but I think that might wane a little eventually. Lucina however has remained significant throughout the whole meta of Ultimate, so I think that helps her keep being relevant.

Well, Lucina suffers from a lack of interest kind of like Sonic. It seems people just don't like playing her that much. That may keep tipping the balance away from her. Though, maybe she still has untapped potential. It can be hard to know until it's found after all.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Roy and Chrom are as different to play as Lucas and Ness; no point in considering one relative to the other.

Stop.

 

[NairWizard]

Stop.

? They're completely different. They look for different confirms (Roy has sour up-air to bladed up-air and jab side-b; that alone is worth a whole character of difference); they have different ledgetrap setups; they have different ideal spacings at different percents in different matchups; they have different fastfall timings.

Really just about the only thing that's similar is their landing game.

 

[KakuCP9]

For example, ZSS is really good at whiff punishing swords in this game--but of the swordsmen, Roy (not Chrom, not Lucina, not Marth) is one of her hardest matchups. Why is that? Because Roy runs up to her, shields or spotdodges or rolls, and then mashes jab and d-tilt and OOS options that she can't whiff punish. This is something that other swordsmen simply can't do.

Let me guess. It's another one of those "Roy's at 0 frame advantage after Jab and Chrom is -1 based when enemy does so and so" even though that not actually guaranteed safety due how defensive options in this game work, but it works anyway cause reasons ( i.e Dodging ZSS f-air OOS or Boost kick which has more to do with spacing).

 

[NairWizard]

Let me guess. It's another one of those "Roy's at 0 frame advantage after Jab and Chrom is -1 based when enemy does so and so" even though that not actually guaranteed safety due how defensive options in this game work, but it works anyway cause reasons ( i.e Dodging ZSS f-air OOS or Boost kick which has more to do with spacing).

Don't get me wrong; Chrom is great in the MU too, but it's closer to even--I have a much harder time fighting Roys than Chroms, and I'm sure most other ZSS players feel the same way.

Chrom and Roy play the matchup in the same way--getting up close to ZSS and shielding, then overwhelming her with fast options. They have the ground speed to get that close. It's just because you're already getting so close in this matchup, Roy ends up getting more reward, including an earlier kill from jab confirms.

Also, to your point: don't think about it as 1 frame; that'll limit your view on its impact. Think of it as 1 frame each time you're in that situation. If there's a 20% chance that that 1 frame matters in a close-up situation based on the defensive option that your opponent picked, then out of 20 times that you're in that situation (across a set or a couple of sets), then the chance that it will matter at least once is >98%; the chance that it will matter 5 or more times is over 37%, and there's close to a 9% chance that it'll matter 7 or more times. That's pretty substantial--easily enough for a matchup to go from -1 to 0, for example. [2 frames is an even bigger difference (d-tilt up close)]

I picked 20% as a random chance, by the way; I think it's closer to 30 in my experience in matchups where this kind of mashing is relevant. In that case the probability of this mattering 5 or more times out of 20 interactions is over 75%.



Finally, on stream a week ago or so, MKLeo was saying that playing Marth is completely different from playing Lucina and it's too hard to switch from one to the other. Similarly, when he tried Roy instead of Chrom, he said that he didn't really understand how to play Roy right--but Chrom came naturally to him. That's MKLeo, probably better with sword characters than any single person on this planet, and he definitely understands the concept of sword zoning (you can tell just by watching him play--also by counting the number of times he's watched another person play a sword character on stream and complained that they don't zone hard enough).

It's something to reflect on when we keep forcing a comparison that even the players of the characters have a hard time realizing in their gameplay.

 

[StrangeKitten]

I play Roy quite well, Chrom not as much. My Lucina is decent but my Marth is eh. It's kind of amazing how much the smallest differences can affect things.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I feel I get what MKLeo says, I also think Lucina and Chrom play very similar to each other. Require the same sort of mindset, but I really can't play Roy or Marth in this game. They are way too precise, especially Marth. But Lucina and Chrom basically want to do the same thing as each other in their game plan. I'm not a main of either, so am afraid I can't explain it more deeply, but I definitely see Lucina and Chrom as more similar to each other than compared to Marth and Roy.

 

[Arthur97]

It is kind of ironic that despite all the too many Marth/swordfighter complaints that they are also two of the most unique echoes (the mot unique if you don't count Ken who is pretty much a semi-clone with the title). Don't get me wrong, Lucina in particular isn't that great of a representation of the actual character, but at least there is some legitimate difference.

 

[The_Bookworm]

It took us about a few months, but we finally got a bit of a Nintendo Direct this week that kind of went under the radar:

A new #NintendoDirect Mini is here! Watch now to see more than 25 minutes of news on a selection of #NintendoSwitch games coming this year. https://t.co/uF0oWK91Mj pic.twitter.com/b6sph9ueqC

— Nintendo of America (@NintendoAmerica) March 26, 2020

Xenoblade Chronicles Definitive Edition is the main focus of this mini direct and it looks great!

However, the main reason that I am posting this is that it seems that an ARMS rep is going to be our next DLC character.
Spring Man is already in the game as an assist trophy, so it is going to be a character that isn't the main character.
It is a rather curious decision that an ARMS rep is the next DLC character this late into the game's DLC life-cycle, considering that ARM's development support has ceased a long time ago.

But what I think what this does is open the possibility for other DLC characters.
Most of the ARMS reps are already as spirits, so the spirits theory might be incorrect.
Both Spring Man and Ribbon Girl are Mii costumes (might've missed someone), so the Mii costume theory might be incorrect.
If Spring Man is indeed the next DLC character (which seems unlikely), then the assist trophy rule is incorrect.

Sorry for posting something that isn't related to our Roy conversation, but this is an interesting turn of events, especially after being devoid of news for so long.

 

[Arthur97]

Okay, I'm still not convinced it won't be Spring Man (maybe along with Ribbon Girl as they seem close enough that they could pull a Hero). If they can turn Alucard off in Wii Fit Studio (a nice touch, I might add), they can turn his assist off when he's fighting. They have the ability. Remember, these "rules" are mostly fan concocted. This is already a blow to the whole spirits thing.

 

[Lacrimosa]

This is already a blow to the whole spirits thing.

Should go into the other topic, but no, it isn't. At least not yet.
Dr. Coyle or Helix for example aren't spirits or AT but also stand for this franchise.
I think the picture is just smart marketing: Spring-Man etc. are probably out but Nintendo can't just deconfirm them, yet. That would be a huge blow to speculation and therefore hype-building. It's really smart when you think about it.

And I already said: If that's wrong and Spring Man or Ribbon Girl makes the cut then it is a dead blow to either spirits or ATs not being able to make the cut, meaning something is gained for future discussions but I really wouldn't count on Spring Man (it's too obvious).

 

[Arthur97]

Should go into the other topic, but no, it isn't. At least not yet.
Dr. Coyle or Helix for example aren't spirits or AT but also stand for this franchise.
I think the picture is just smart marketing: Spring-Man etc. are probably out but Nintendo can't just deconfirm them, yet. That would be a huge blow to speculation and therefore hype-building. It's really smart when you think about it.

And I already said: If that's wrong and Spring Man or Ribbon Girl makes the cut then it is a dead blow to either spirits or ATs not being able to make the cut, meaning something is gained for future discussions but I really wouldn't count on Spring Man (it's too obvious).

You also shouldn't rule out the main character of the game when, generally, they come first. This is uncharted territory as the assist was a concession when time seemed to not allow him. Now that that isn't an issue, we could be on the verge of seeing speculation cracked wide open. Something I think is more likely than you seem to. You can't assume that something that exists because of restraints that were removed will continue to hinder them. In fact, that might be why Arms is first. To blow a hole in a bunch of fan "rules." Maybe it's not, but you shouldn't be so dismissive when you have no idea. You want to talk about hype building, then that would be how you do it. Think of it, Issac, Waluigi, and Shadow all back on the table. It would certainly build hype.

Ahem, now, back to the regularly scheduled Roy talk.

 

[Thinkaman]

I was always baffled at the people upset at the swordsman echoes existing. Marth has historically been one of the most popular characters at all levels of play since 2001. Everyone complains about having too many swordsmen, but a crazy-high percentage of the userbase wants to play sword characters. (And the rest of us have to live with playing against them.) It's roughly 20% at all levels of play, and surprisingly few of those are people interested in Link(s) or say Shulk.

Does anyone really want all of those people playing Marth?


As for ARMS, the obvious question is ARMS 2. AFAIK we have no idea what the ARMS/Mario Kart team has been doing since 2017. ARMS moved 2.2 million units in the weaker half of the Switch's lifespan, and Nintendo is refocusing attention on the IP this week with the Smash announcement and free trial period. It's not a slam dunk for poiting to an ARMS 2, but all of this is certainly what the buildup to ARMS 2 would look like.

 

[NairWizard]

ARMS character, huh? So what? A tether grab, or just a very long-ranged grab? A tether recovery? Maybe a z-air? Hmm. Lots of range, but without disjoint? Kind of a nice concept in theory. I'm all for it!

 

[Diddy Kong]

Glad that ARMS is getting a character. Am betting it'll be a hard ass challenge to balance such a fighter however, so am content with not seeing anything yet. Long ranged attacks am sure will be 80% of their game plan, but it might also be a heavy weight character coming with all the negatives such archetypes bring. I can't picture a ARMS fighter becoming a speedster, but we'll see.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

A character who’s whole moveset will consist of Plant’s Down B, hurtbox and all.

Joking aside I’ve never played ARMS but isn’t customization the whole appeal of the game? They displayed a lot of ARMS fighters in the reveal and said they’d announce who it was later could we by chance have another Mii like character in that you can customize your specials depending on the arms you use? I wouldn’t put it past them, they like to try to be really unorthodox with these DLC characters.

 

[IsmaR]

Sakurai himself commented on the balancing being tricky. Translation credit to Sephazon

A new fighter from "ARMS" will join Super Smash Bros. Ultimate. Despite this special request, it is very difficult to stick to the rules of the game as well as find the right balance while maintaining the spirit of “ARMS." Prepare for a fighter with entirely original mechanics! https://t.co/Xxa2Y2XbsR

— Robert Sephazon (@Sephazon) March 26, 2020

To me, it sounds like they're going with a different approach to either Belmonts/Plant/Byleth and trying not to make it as "just like in their original game!" as the usual new characters. Unless they embrace the gimmick wholly and go with someone like Helix, I don't think they'll be going the Dhalsim route.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

I never played it as much as I wanted to, but ARMs has super sick characters and music, so I’m glad to see someone on their way! Happy enough to stop lurking for a moment anyhow. Some speculation:

-While the focus is certainly long range, the grab attacks in ARMs showcase plenty of neat up-close attacks from its characters, so I wouldn’t be shocked to see some decent close-quarter attacks.

-ARMs would fall limp to the ground when hit or blocked, and there also was a mechanic that momentarily disabled them, so I wonder if that’ll be incorporated somehow as counterplay.

-I’ve seen some speculation that they’ll be like Jr. and have a chunk of the fighters as alts, but I don’t that’ll be the case, as the fighters all had a unique gimmick. It’d be like if Ken, Akuma, Sakura, and Dan were Ryu alts.

-As such, I imagine the character they pick will have their gimmick reflected in at least one of their specials, along with other ARMs mechanics to fill out the rest?

-I wonder if the multiple ARM types will be a mechanic where they can switch mid-fight to get different effects on similar attacks, or if they’ll just incorporate different ones in their normals, a la Megaman.

-Judging from the recent trends, I’m expecting the flurry attack to be a meter to be built up by throwing punches, rather than a Final Smash

 

[KakuCP9]

snip

I think I understand now. But I still don't like it and the probability aspect was part of the reason for my intial umbrage. You say that there's a very high chance of the 1 frame safety mattering in a match and that is fair, but it doesn't address when it matters. The beginning, the end, after the fact, the moment you need it the most? If your answer is that you do it enough times that it will eventually matter, that just screams gambler's fallacy.
For what its worth, it's not entirely groundless since it's an aspect that the opponent must acknowledge since there's a non-zero chance of Roy being unpunished for his attacks because the player buffered their options a hair faster than the opponent at some moment. Hell, some schmuck will think Roy can't be punished for jabbing a shield cause they don't know about the probability aspect of his safety. Plus unlike most Fighting games where mashing involves a (normally) high commitment DP, all Roy commits to is....jab or spotdodge (both are difficult to punish)so hanging back to bait his spot-dodge is alot more dicey.
Not gonna lie, thinking about this **** is making mad salty with Roy's ****ing Joey Wheeler ass strats.

Edit: Actually scratch that. Schrodinger's jab would be a more apt term.

 

[NairWizard]

Last sword post from me for a while, promise.

The beginning, the end, after the fact, the moment you need it the most? If your answer is that you do it enough times that it will eventually matter, that just screams gambler's fallacy.

Here's the thing, and probably the sagest piece of wisdom I can offer on this: because it matters, it won't matter.

Because you, as Roy's opponent, know that there's a significant chance of that 1 or 2 frames mattering, you won't take the risk. The best players want consistency. They don't want to try to punish a jab that they can almost borderline punish, but may just get killed for instead. It isn't worth the risk, especially at ledge. So it doesn't really matter when it's happening, because the situation isn't happening.

You get punished once or twice for trying to punish a Roy jab and then you're like "nope never doing that again, screw losing my stock over this nonsense."

So even if the chance of it mattering is 20% or 30%, it effectively becomes 100%. Because "some schmuck" in this case happens to be the top players (I'm not belittling them, though; their approach is logical).

One other thing worth noting also is that Roy's jab side-b is actually loaded with risk-reward on the Roy side. I mean, you can die at 60. That doesn't happen with Chrom.

Not gonna lie, thinking about this **** is making mad salty with Roy's ****ing Joey Wheeler ass strats.

Don't get me wrong. Spacing still matters with Roy (maybe even more so than with other characters in some ways since you need sour hits too). Even if you're hitting with the blade, you still have to sort of "tip" the blade--you can't be on top of your opponent or you don't get the full safety. It's just not as obvious when Roy is too close compared to when Lucina is too close.

And if it makes you feel better, when MKLeo was watching Kola play Roy, he was complaining about Kola "not camping hard enough" (his words--what he meant was sword zoning, though).

Roy is utterly baffling for many swordsman mains--even goes for me in some cases. Back when I first started playing this game, I played a bit of Roy in bracket, and I had Shaya telling me to tipper d-tilt more and space attacks with the tip, like I was playing Lucina. There's this Brawl-era mentality (which I imagine is what Emblem Lord was getting at) that swords should approach neutral with safe pokes at a distance and not worry about the reward they get off of those pokes, since you can always net the reward in advantage later.

But then you have Roy players mashing hard and winning sets, and it's working. Against really good players!

Heck, even in Void's Sheik matchup chart, he was like, "Roy loses this matchup, just like all the other swords. Well, until he starts mashing. Then it can be hard."

"Roy mashing" is legit a thing in the meta right now. Sounds silly, but it's there.

 

[Arthur97]

The sword fighter complaints might be one of those loud minority things since, as you said, a lot of people like using sword fighters.

Ironically, now we might be getting a melee fighter with beyond sword level range. Though, what are people thinking with mobility? Generally that kind of range would come at the cost of a lot of mobility, but do you think they'll balance it out in a different way?

 

[FruitLoop]

Yea honestly i wouldn't be too suprised that the ARMS character would also be taking a lot of time since they'd want to implement a mechanic like having different ARMS combinations, it's one of the most defining aspects about ARMS.

I feel like they'll balance out the ARM's extendable reach by either making it either SUPER slow or have extendable hurtboxes. If the ARMs char doesn't get any CQC options for the former or they get the latter then I feel like it'd be a huge detriment in viability since it's what caused chars like SSF2 Luffy to become borderline bottom tier material. I can see why it'd be hard af to balance it, they can try the byleth or belmonts approach but neither chars are really good and if Sakurai mentions that the character will be "unique", i just hope that it doesn't mean extendable hurtboxes with slow frame data.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Unless they embrace the gimmick wholly and go with someone like Helix

If they add Helix we will have even more pancaking :,)

 

[The_Bookworm]

Ironically, now we might be getting a melee fighter with beyond sword level range. Though, what are people thinking with mobility? Generally that kind of range would come at the cost of a lot of mobility, but do you think they'll balance it out in a different way?

Well something we can look at is the Spring Man assist trophy.
As expected, he has a lot of range and can angle his attacks. He packs some pretty good power. He also, at low health, has a super move with some insane power.
His attacks do, however have some long startup, as expected. He doesn't move that fast, but that is due to him only really walking around.


Now the way they had to balance the range of is to make them sluggish and give them a terrible recovery. Now while the Belmonts generated a lot of hype in the beginning, they fell off as time goes on to their current low tier status.

The way the ARMS character's hitboxes would work will be different than the Belmonts, as their hitboxes are traveling and not instant, but it has even more range than them. The ARMS character's hitboxes are also going to be not as paper thin as the Belmonts. However, there is a chance that all of their attacks would potentially extent their hurtboxes out a lot as well. If we all know about SSF2 Luffy, we all know that this is a very undesirable trait to have.

If they are going to add an ARMS character, with range that exceeds even the Belmonts, then there is a chance that they might counterbalance them the same way they did for the Belmonts, which may hurt the ARMS character's viability.

OR they could carefully craft their moveset in a way that would be in the spirit with the character, while counterbalancing them properly without ruining them. SSB4 Corrin is a rather slow ranged powerhouse that managed to a viable threat in SSB4 without being overpowered. Granted that it is partially due to how powerful her special moveset was, but the point is that this is possible.

So yeah. Sakurai himself says that an ARMS character would be tricky to balance, and from pure speculation alone, it is easy to see why.
What special mechanic(s) they would have will also be interesting to see, especially considering that we don't quite know what specific ARMS character we are going to have yet.