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Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

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  • Total voters
    576

Frihetsanka

Smash Lord
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Apr 26, 2016
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Watching Jul's and Nairo's :ultrobin:s in action at Shine made me realize just how off-base ESAM's analysis on Robin was in his tier list video, especially about Arcfire.
I've noticed several people saying things like this. Do some people only watch majors? Maybe it's because I've been watching a lot of Mr. E VODs, but I already knew Robin was a decent character before Shine, Jul vs Mr. E sets are often fairly close. Robin mains seem optimistic in general.

Why do people think Mii Swordfighter is that bad? Because it's a Mii? What do people here think about the Miis?
 

The_Bookworm

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 10, 2018
Messages
3,014
Why do people think Mii Swordfighter is that bad? Because it's a Mii? What do people here think about the Miis?
I personally think Mii Sword isn't that low (his spot in VoiD's tier list should've been reserved Brawler imo), but Mii Swordfighter still possesses some subpar reach for a swordfighter, mediocre frame data (especially on the ground), and merely average mobility. I think it is in the lower mid tiers and the best of the three Miis (I do think the other two, especially Gunner, are low tier, but that is a story for another time).

A lot of the negative opinions on the Miis, aside from their glaring weaknesses and eh results, is probably due to how uninteresting they are. They have received big visual and proportion upgrades from their cardboard appearances from SSB4, but still rather uninteresting. It doesn't help that there are better, more well known, versions of each of the Miis (i.e. Mario for Brawler, Samus for Gunner, name a high/top tier sword character for Swordfighter).

Also, the awkward moment when the Mii Swordfighter does zoning better than the Mii Fighter designed for zoning. lol
 
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KirbySquad101

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 7, 2015
Messages
918
I've noticed several people saying things like this. Do some people only watch majors? Maybe it's because I've been watching a lot of Mr. E VODs, but I already knew Robin was a decent character before Shine, Jul vs Mr. E sets are often fairly close. Robin mains seem optimistic in general.

Why do people think Mii Swordfighter is that bad? Because it's a Mii? What do people here think about the Miis?
I mean, there's only so many locals I can keep up with lol. I knew Jul was a good Robin, but I actually haven't watched a lot of that region in particular; the ones I'm more familiar with are the SoCal and MD/VA scenes; so I'm familiar with players like ZD, Dexter, MastaMario, Nicko, etc....
 

Djmarcus44

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 25, 2015
Messages
478
VoiD's analysis of Mii Gunner is very inaccurate. Gunner has good kill power and plenty of kill confirms. Besides our smash attacks, Gunner's bair, up air, up tilt, dtilt, and dash attack are good kill moves. Our back throw also kills most of the cast around 160% near the ledge. Charge blast, grenades, stealth burst, super missiles, cannon jump kick, and bomb drop are specials that kill at high percents.
Missiles/Flame Pillar, Bomb drop, and Ground level Fair confirm into charge blast. Gunner can also confirm into any kill move or grab by running behind homing missiles. Bomb drop can also confirm into any single hit kill move or grab by running behind it, and it can confirm into bair, up air, cannon jump kick or charge blast from ledge trapping. Super missiles can also confirm into dash attack or grab for kills. Up throw to up air is also a kill confirm. It is pretty tight on frames like Inkling's up throw to up air, and up throw can whiff sometimes (We have a whiff chart to account for this). Gunner's up throw to up air is still a better confirm since it kills around 25%-30% earlier, and it has better percent ranges. Even Bowser dies at 115% to this confirm. Grenades can confirm into stealth burst/super missiles for kills.

Also, I am a little surprised that he didn't mention Aikota. He just got 25th at Super Smash Con with Gunner. He also used Gunner as a secondary to get 33rd at Momocon. Although he isn't able to consistently travel to supermajors he is a strong player who is PR #7 in Georgia. He recently beat Scatt to win a Recursion tournament in Georgia.

Gunner is a good character. Although we have one of the smallest player bases, we have some some good players who perform well in strong regions. Even from a results stand point, we have been underrated by top players.
 

Frihetsanka

Smash Lord
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(his spot in VoiD's tier list should've been reserved Brawler imo),
I've heard Mii Brawler is a lot better after the buffs. Seems many think Brawler is the best Mii now.

A lot of the negative opinions on the Miis, aside from their glaring weaknesses and eh results, is probably due to how uninteresting they are.
They also tend to be somewhat gimmicky, which makes them even less appealing for many people.
 

Zachmac

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Framedata maybe? Like, things that can be looked up in graphs and other sources that take such stuff from the game.

Although framedata isn't everything. I will always make a point about Zelda's framedata not ruining her despite not being the best. You always need character performance as well in order to see how characters work on the battlefield and not just on paper.
Otherwise I'd say that Roy is undoubtedly the best character but the performance isn't really there for him.
What even defines good frame data? Short start up? Short end lag? Long active frames? "Frame Data" can manifest itself in many way.

Besides, it's all relative and dependent on a character's kit. Take how frame data is tied to hitbox size for example.
Which is better, a move that's -6 on shield or one that's -8? Obviously with no other information you'd say -6, but what if the move that's -8 has a massive disjoint that makes it even safer then the -6 move when spaced?

Not to mention other equally complex factors like damage output, mobility, ect.

There's no perfect "objective" measure of character viability. All you can really do is theorize and push your character's metagame as far as you can and hope it all works out.
 

SwagGuy99

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 28, 2016
Messages
713
I'm suprised that little mac isn't on this to be honest. While I haven't heard the section on Mii Swordfighter yet i'm kind of curious about the declining opinion on him. Is it just due to no one playing him or is Gale Strike being found out better?
I think the issue is that nobody's playing him.

I will admit that I am not extremely knowledgeable on :ultswordfighter: but nothing he seems pretty decent to me in most aspects. His mobility leaves something to be desired and his frame data and range a maybe very slightly lacking overall but despite being a character based around a few gimmicky moves, those few moves work very well and the opponent will get hit by Gale Strike (I think that's what it's called) eventually.

His moveset also seems pretty decent overall as well (again, slight range and frame data buffs might not be horrible for him) and I can't immediately think of any moves that he has that are really bad. He's kind of the definition of a well-rounded character who still has a few really good things about him that the other 'well-rounded' characters lack like :ultpit::ultdarkpit::ultcorrin: who don't really have much special about them but are still considered to be pretty average in every way.

IMO, he's high mid tier. He could be low high tier but he doesn't really have the results to allow me to back up that claim very well.
 

The_Bookworm

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Jan 10, 2018
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I've heard Mii Brawler is a lot better after the buffs. Seems many think Brawler is the best Mii now.
Well the main reason why Brawler is way better after the buffs, is because many have considered him a potential bottom 5 character before receiving them.

However, these said buffs make the Brawler easily the most polarizing Mii in terms of viewpoints, especially back when 2.0.0 was initially released.
Some players consider Mii Brawler a sleeper mid tier pick (even high tier back when 2.0.0 was released for whatever reason), while others still think that he still sucks (not bottom 5 suck, but still very low tier). Some players consider him the best Mii, while others consider him the worst Mii.

The fact that 4.0.0 reverted his fall speed, harming his recovery and removing SH fair autocancel, doesn't really help matters.
 

Y2Kay

BLACK MAMBA FOREVER
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I’m subscribed to a lot of YouTube channels that upload locals so I can stay up to date on scenes. I don’t watch em all but I do peek to see who’s winning these tournies in each scene. Seems like most people are subscribed to VG boot camp and 2GG and that’s about it.

:150:
 
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Gleam

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Burlington, NC
A notable issue when it comes to results, much more than popularity is the fact that everyone is forced to fight within the same paygrade.

:ultpokemontrainer::ultwolf::ultsnake::ultpalutena::ultinkling::ultcloud::ultfox::ultness::ultpichu::ultzss::ultpeach::ultolimar::ultlucina::ultmario::ultrob::ultgreninja:

These are the Top 16 most used characters in tournaments according to SSB World and out of all them, only two, :ultcloud::ultpichu: are ranked below the Top 20 on Orion. That's the majority challenge everyone must face and if you can't handle that challenge, you can't get results even if you might have technically done better elsewhere.

I will still stand by the idea that :ultridley: is a Mid Tier character to even potentially Upper Mid Tier character. I would also be very hesitant to want to Ridley to face any of those Top 16 popular characters mentioned above with exception of Cloud who is, really pushed by his popularity. Which in then lies the problem in that arguably more than half the characters in this game are not allowed to fight on their level.

Some say :ultincineroar: is a Mid Tier character. Maybe he is but I think most would agree he's no High/Top Tier and so maybe if :ultincineroar: got to fight other Low/Mid Tiers, he might not be Bottom 10 right now.

This also leads to a lot of sporadic results for anyone of Orrion #30 and higher. Results usually come from very specific points and often times its a cluster of characters fighting for one spot here and another spot there. Sometimes you get that one nice player pushing a character a bit but almost none of them have a decent enough community to keep the results coming.

When :ultpiranha: got those wins around last week or so, he jumped up to about #38 on Orion Phase 02. One week later, one update later, he dropped back down to #46. In one week, all that work Brood and whoever worked with Plant, the character than dropped nearly 8 spots.

:ultwiifittrainer: was once #64 on Phase 01. She jumped all the way to #46 and then went back to #50 for this week.

Nobody wants to use these characters and some can argue that fun or something is a factor but really it's because they aren't good enough. They aren't good enough to handle what needs to be handled, those most popular characters. They may not technically be bad characters in any right but if they can't handle what specifically needs to be handled, nobody will bother.
 

TimG57867

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 27, 2015
Messages
510
I’m subscribed to a lot of YouTube channels that upload locals so I can stay up to date on scenes. I don’t watch em all but I do peek to see who’s winning these tournies in each scene. Seems like most people are subscribed to VG boot camp and 2GG and that’s about it.

:150:

Indeed. Good as those channels are, you’ll miss out on so much proficient play from a lot of the roster if you only follow those 2 channels. Granted VGBootCamp has recently started giving extra exposure to TriState and Japan’s tourneys, but there’s still so much more you could be following.

SHI-G (Japan), Tourney Locator (Texas), BYO_Controller (Netherlands) , Typo House Games (Georgia), Spectrum (New Jersey), Mkgming (Mexico), MountainSideGames (Vancouver), SSBMontreal, SAKGaming (Arizona), Satellite Smash (Washingston), SmashBrosItalia (Italy) and many, many more channels can let you view a lot of these players who make such surprising headway at majors on the regular. And don’t just stop at YouTube. Snoop these channels further to see if they have streams for weeklies and monthlies you could follow as wel.

Also consider keeping an eye on the tournaments that get posted on the OrionStats TTS beyond regions you may be familiar with as well as Barnard Loop’s Power Rankings Database which he intends to update soon:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/11s2VVc08jwU5a7ykztboga_zO5l4K4DLpGcA0OTXLEY/edit?usp=sharing

A lot of folks that make surprise headway at majors actually tend to rank rather well in their own regions. It’s also a good vantage point to see matchups for characters played out beyond the folks you may be more familiar with and get more perspective.
 

Frihetsanka

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The fact that 4.0.0 reverted his fall speed, harming his recovery and removing SH fair autocancel, doesn't really help matters.
4.0.0 also reduced the startup of Flashing Mach Punch from frame 15 to 10, and reduced FAF on miss from 60 to 55, and from 108 to 94 on hit, and also gave it more knockback scaling and a bit more invulnerability if it connects. Oh, and Thrust Uppercut also has more knockback scaling, making it a stronger kill move. With that being said, not every Mii player even uses those moves, so your mileage may vary on how useful those buffs are. If you do use Flashing Mach Punch then I imagine the frame buffs are huge. I'm not a Mii main but I'd probably strongly consider Flashing Mach Punch since Mii Brawler really needs some decent kill options.

Speaking of a character that needs some decent kill options, could they give Corrin something? After having played her some after the patch I've concluded that she's still mediocre, and while her recovery is noticeably better it's hardly a great recovery. Aside from that she struggles with some miscellaneous nerfs that she got from Smash 4 (her fair feels so sluggish now, coming out at frame 9 instead of 7 hurts). Oh, they also made Dragon Fang Shot a bit slower (frame 17 instead of 15), and, for some reason, sometimes it doesn't connect properly (wheras in 4 it always connected if you landed the stun first). Apparently they also nerfed the knockback, making Dragon Fang Shot an overall worse kill move.

Her down-tilt, one of her best combo moves in 4, got nerfed too. Now it barely combos at all.

Pin got nerfed, hard. Hard. If they only nerfed pin and nothing else, Corrin would've probably still been a pretty decent character, though. It's strange to me how they decided to nerf her so much, especially since she wasn't even a top 10 character in 4, and her results weren't spectacular either. I can understand nerfing pin (it won her so many matchups) but why nerf all this other stuff?

Ultimately, right now Corrin isn't really worth maining, and while she probably isn't a bottom 10 character (she might be bottom 15) there's little reason to main her. She's not that unique (even less now that some of her most unique tools like pin and Dragon Fang Shot got nerfed) and similar characters are actually good. Characters like Jigglypuff and Ganondorf may be worse, but they offer more uniqueness and thus have more representation.
 

DungeonMaster

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The Miis have major problems towards respectability:

#1 There are 70+ characters oozing personality and classic gaming nostalgia - can you *really* not find even *one* that you you would like to play?

#2 The game engine does not tell you their ability allotment. It is cancerous to suddenly realize they chose "reflect" in QP.

#3 Mii players try to pick the dumbest visual options to confuse the opponent, pure gimmicks.

It's not surprising that even pro players cannot fully dissociate their functional level within a tier list and the gut dislike of gimmicky and sometimes outright lame.
If I strip away 1, 2 and 3 the underlying characters are not that bad.
 

Frihetsanka

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#1 There are 70+ characters oozing personality and classic gaming nostalgia - can you *really* not find even *one* that you you would like to play?

#2 The game engine does not tell you their ability allotment. It is cancerous to suddenly realize they chose "reflect" in QP.

#3 Mii players try to pick the dumbest visual options to confuse the opponent, pure gimmicks.
#1 seems to assume that players care about personality and such, I imagine many people play their characters based on how they play, especially Miis.

#2. In tournaments you'd tell people your loadout and maybe even name your character after it (like 2312 and such). It's a problem for QP though.

#3. "Guest Miis only" is an option for tournaments.
 
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Envoy of Chaos

Smash Ace
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May 9, 2016
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737
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Rock Hill, SC
Yeah you can enforce guest Mii’s only and any large tournament would very likely require this to prevent people from making inappropriate Miis and taking up time doing so.

Having actual Mii Gunner and Swordfighter mains in my state. (Since 4 as well) who genuinely like their characters the “personality” aspect does matter but it’s not totally damning in people using the characters. (The Swordfighter player uses him because Mii Sword Default looks just like him).

Having played these characters I can tell you that you should be glad they are not better characters and more popular. Gunner and Swordfighter quite literally are probably the best abusers of projectiles, their special projectiles are all really good moves and complement their kits very well and are able to slow the game down to a crawl. Mii Sword’s disc side b (chakram?) and his shuriken of light are very effective at forcing shield given how quickly he can toss them and the space the moves cover preventing short hops from dealing with them like you would other slower projectiles. Gunner is able to fight without ever needing to actually engage closer than mid range in a way other projectile heavy characters can’t quite do the same like in Duck Hunt. I don’t know how good any of the Miis truly are but I can say Sword and Gunner shouldn’t be near the bottom of a list, maybe Brawler but even having only played them on WiFi I’m hesitant to call that character average as well.
 

Rizen

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I've been playing a lot of doubles recently and have some observations.

:ultyounglink: is probably a bit better in doubles than he is in singles. This might sound weird because he's a light character with poor kill power but let me explain. In singles YL has excellent chip damage capabilities with 3 extremely versatile and fast projectiles, a Dair that bounces shields and f4 Nair that's a sex kick with 6f landing lag, both of which cover YL's lower body really well in the air. His problem is you can't win on chip damage and any time YL tries CQC he's at a disadvantage to practically everyone because his attacks besides Nair have frame data comparable to Hero's, his sword's disjoint is sup par for swords and for aerials it has no curving hitboxes with blind spots at diagonal angles, his grab's f12 and very punishable, his fastest OoS is upB at f9 and his smash attacks have a ton of endlag. He also has low kill power on everything but Fsmash and probably won't kill until 140-180%.

But in doubles YL doesn't have to worry about killing if his partner is good at it. YL can actually stock tank by platform camping and jumping around the battlefield throwing projectiles and using the very safe Nair/Dair. Bombs are really good for platform camping and covering his landings. YL doesn't have to worry about being put in disadvantage as much and can deal out a lot of safe damage and take opportunities to get combos going. He's also very good at supporting a partner who's in trouble with things like fast arrows to disrupt opponents.

:ultlink: interestingly doesn't do as well as YL. His bombs are less useful because he's pressured by 2 opponents and can hit his partner. Link's disadvantage with poor mobility can be taken advantage of and several of his kill moves have multiple hits that take a long time and can be interrupted (Fair/Usmash/Fsmash). He's too slow to keep up. He also shares YL's issue of having blindspots on his aerials.
 

SwagGuy99

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 28, 2016
Messages
713
Some noteworthy things I'd like to point out in regards to OrionStats results rankings right now (note that Phase 1 ended on June 30).
  • :ultmewtwo: is the only character with no results currently at all, after his numerous buffs in patches 1.1.0, 2.0.0, 3.0.0, and 4.0.0.
  • :ultcorrin: is sitting at the second worst spot in this entire list.
  • Neither :ultcorrin: or :ultmewtwo: are usually considered contenders for bottom 5 or even low tier characters despite their completely lackluster results.
  • :ultjoker: is currently sitting at #2, up 20 spots from the end of phase 1.
  • On the exact opposite end of the spectrum, :ultpichu: has dropped 26 spots from the end of phase 1.
  • :ultmario:, despite people considering him from anywhere between high mid tier and top 10, is sitting at spot #8, above characters like Lucina, Pikachu, Pichu, Roy, and Chrom who are often considered better than Mario.
  • Some characters commonly considered Low Mid/Low/Bottom Tier like :ultdk:, :ultlittlemac:, :ultpiranha:, :ultbayonetta:, :ultluigi:, :ultrosalina:, :ultrobin:, :ultvillager:, and :ulttoonlink: are all significantly higher than one would expect them to be based on how most people view them in comparison to the rest of the cast.
  • Likewise, characters who are commonly considered Top/High Tier like :ultpikachu:, :ultinkling:, :ultroy:, :ultchrom:, :ultpichu:, and :ultike: are all lower than most people would rank them in comparison to the rest of the cast.
  • :ultkingdedede:, a character who I've seen placed anywhere from Mid High Tier to the bottom of Low Tier is ranked at spot 58 along with characters like Ganondorf and Lucas(???), which is pretty low compared to where most people would rank him.
 

The_Bookworm

Smash Master
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Jan 10, 2018
Messages
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Some noteworthy things I'd like to point out in regards to OrionStats results rankings right now (note that Phase 1 ended on June 30).
  • :ultmewtwo: is the only character with no results currently at all, after his numerous buffs in patches 1.1.0, 2.0.0, 3.0.0, and 4.0.0.
  • :ultcorrin: is sitting at the second worst spot in this entire list.
  • Neither :ultcorrin: or :ultmewtwo: are usually considered contenders for bottom 5 or even low tier characters despite their completely lackluster results.
  • :ultjoker: is currently sitting at #2, up 20 spots from the end of phase 1.
  • On the exact opposite end of the spectrum, :ultpichu: has dropped 26 spots from the end of phase 1.
  • :ultmario:, despite people considering him from anywhere between high mid tier and top 10, is sitting at spot #8, above characters like Lucina, Pikachu, Pichu, Roy, and Chrom who are often considered better than Mario.
  • Some characters commonly considered Low Mid/Low/Bottom Tier like :ultdk:, :ultlittlemac:, :ultpiranha:, :ultbayonetta:, :ultluigi:, :ultrosalina:, :ultrobin:, :ultvillager:, and :ulttoonlink: are all significantly higher than one would expect them to be based on how most people view them in comparison to the rest of the cast.
  • Likewise, characters who are commonly considered Top/High Tier like :ultpikachu:, :ultinkling:, :ultroy:, :ultchrom:, :ultpichu:, and :ultike: are all lower than most people would rank them in comparison to the rest of the cast.
  • :ultkingdedede:, a character who I've seen placed anywhere from Mid High Tier to the bottom of Low Tier is ranked at spot 58 along with characters like Ganondorf and Lucas(???), which is pretty low compared to where most people would rank him.
I sometimes look at certain characters (such as :ultsheik::ultlucas::ultgunner:) in the Orion Stats and I give out this simple question:
Where exactly are they getting their results from?!?


Now changes on the OS that has notably changed from last time:
:ultjoker: I am personally surprised that Joker rose that much, especially considering that it was :ultpeach: who won Shine. But considering that :ultpokemontrainer::ultsnake: didn't exactly do the best at Shine, and Joker's playerbase seems to be continuing to rise right now, I guess it isn't too surprising.
:ultroy: Goblin's performance at Shine has greatly rose Roy from ~26/27th, to 21st. He is now two spots below his counterpart (who is still at 19th).
:ultyounglink::ulttoonlink::ultlink: Something to note is that with :ultken:'s rise to 31st, none of the three Links are top 30 in results anymore. Before YLink was at ~28th, but has dropped a notable amount. YLink is at 32nd, TLink is at 36th, and BotW Link is at 41st.
:ultrosalina::ultfalco: Dabuz's and Juice's performance at Shine, respectively, have also been a notable boost to these two characters. Rosa received a smaller boost because Dabuz went a mix of Olimar and Rosa during the tournament, but it nevertheless rose her to 34th. I forgot where Falco was before, but it seems like he got a notable boost to 35th. Might be placebo, but I think it is notably higher than it was before.
:ultrobin: Robin has expectantly gave out a large rise to 36th (tied with TLink and Samus/DSamus). Considering his limited representation, I wonder how long he can hold that position, but it is definitely a nice sight to see. Coincidentally, Shine 2016 is where everyone first talked about Robin in SSB4 after Dath's performance. Is it fate?
:ultpichu::ultike: Both of these characters got pretty poor placements early in the OS season 2, but it seems like both of them are improving with time. Pichu currently sits at 40th and Ike is at 48th, notable rises from what they were before.
:ultpiranha: Well so much for PPlant's time in the spotlight. It dropped all the way down to 46th, making it the worst ranking DLC character in the stats (Joker is at 2nd and Hero is at 39th).
:ultsheik::ultlucas::ultgunner: As stated before, I am pretty surprised that these three (plus :ultdoc: to a lesser extent) managed to be this high in the OS. Sheik is at 52nd, directly below Zelda and Wii Fit. Dr. Mario is at 53rd with MK and ICs. Lucas is at 59th with Ganondorf. Mii Gunner is at 64th with Bowser Jr., making her the highest of the three Miis. I have absolutely no idea where these characters are getting these results, especially Sheik, who seems to be completely abandoned by her playerbase.
:ultmewtwo: I've seen some new Mewtwo players come up from the scene after his buffs, so it is strange to see Mewtwo still at 0 points in the OS, especially if Corrin managed to somehow gets some points.
 

Djmarcus44

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 25, 2015
Messages
478
I sometimes look at certain characters (such as :ultsheik::ultlucas::ultgunner:) in the Orion Stats and I give out this simple question:
Where exactly are they getting their results from?!?


Now changes on the OS that has notably changed from last time:
:ultjoker: I am personally surprised that Joker rose that much, especially considering that it was :ultpeach: who won Shine. But considering that :ultpokemontrainer::ultsnake: didn't exactly do the best at Shine, and Joker's playerbase seems to be continuing to rise right now, I guess it isn't too surprising.
:ultroy: Goblin's performance at Shine has greatly rose Roy from ~26/27th, to 21st. He is now two spots below his counterpart (who is still at 19th).
:ultyounglink::ulttoonlink::ultlink: Something to note is that with :ultken:'s rise to 31st, none of the three Links are top 30 in results anymore. Before YLink was at ~28th, but has dropped a notable amount. YLink is at 32nd, TLink is at 36th, and BotW Link is at 41st.
:ultrosalina::ultfalco: Dabuz's and Juice's performance at Shine, respectively, have also been a notable boost to these two characters. Rosa received a smaller boost because Dabuz went a mix of Olimar and Rosa during the tournament, but it nevertheless rose her to 34th. I forgot where Falco was before, but it seems like he got a notable boost to 35th. Might be placebo, but I think it is notably higher than it was before.
:ultrobin: Robin has expectantly gave out a large rise to 36th (tied with TLink and Samus/DSamus). Considering his limited representation, I wonder how long he can hold that position, but it is definitely a nice sight to see. Coincidentally, Shine 2016 is where everyone first talked about Robin in SSB4 after Dath's performance. Is it fate?
:ultpichu::ultike: Both of these characters got pretty poor placements early in the OS season 2, but it seems like both of them are improving with time. Pichu currently sits at 40th and Ike is at 48th, notable rises from what they were before.
:ultpiranha: Well so much for PPlant's time in the spotlight. It dropped all the way down to 46th, making it the worst ranking DLC character in the stats (Joker is at 2nd and Hero is at 39th).
:ultsheik::ultlucas::ultgunner: As stated before, I am pretty surprised that these three (plus :ultdoc: to a lesser extent) managed to be this high in the OS. Sheik is at 52nd, directly below Zelda and Wii Fit. Dr. Mario is at 53rd with MK and ICs. Lucas is at 59th with Ganondorf. Mii Gunner is at 64th with Bowser Jr., making her the highest of the three Miis. I have absolutely no idea where these characters are getting these results, especially Sheik, who seems to be completely abandoned by her playerbase.
:ultmewtwo: I've seen some new Mewtwo players come up from the scene after his buffs, so it is strange to see Mewtwo still at 0 points in the OS, especially if Corrin managed to somehow gets some points.
Gunner's points come from Aikota and Katakiri. Aikota got 25th at Super Smash Con, and Katakiri won Class Change Archer (a 101 player tournament in Ohio). Both of these players are really good. As I mentioned before, Aikota is PR 7th in Georgia. He beat Mr. E and Leet at Super Smash Con, and he recently beat Scatt to win a Recursion tournament in Georgia. Katakiri is PR 10th in Ohio. He beat Colonies, Darkshad and Komota to win Class Change Archer.

Also, why do think Swordfighter is better at zoning than Gunner?
 

Lacrimosa

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 31, 2019
Messages
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Germany
Myst's absence at Shine really lead to a drop for Zelda.
Before she was in the upper fourties, I think.

Anyway, Switchfest is soon, so wre're sure to get some performance even though it's a C-tier event.
 

Rizen

Smash Legend
Joined
May 7, 2009
Messages
14,718
Location
Colorado
I sometimes look at certain characters (such as :ultsheik::ultlucas::ultgunner:) in the Orion Stats and I give out this simple question:
Where exactly are they getting their results from?!?


Now changes on the OS that has notably changed from last time:
:ultjoker: I am personally surprised that Joker rose that much, especially considering that it was :ultpeach: who won Shine. But considering that :ultpokemontrainer::ultsnake: didn't exactly do the best at Shine, and Joker's playerbase seems to be continuing to rise right now, I guess it isn't too surprising.
:ultroy: Goblin's performance at Shine has greatly rose Roy from ~26/27th, to 21st. He is now two spots below his counterpart (who is still at 19th).
:ultyounglink::ulttoonlink::ultlink: Something to note is that with :ultken:'s rise to 31st, none of the three Links are top 30 in results anymore. Before YLink was at ~28th, but has dropped a notable amount. YLink is at 32nd, TLink is at 36th, and BotW Link is at 41st.
:ultrosalina::ultfalco: Dabuz's and Juice's performance at Shine, respectively, have also been a notable boost to these two characters. Rosa received a smaller boost because Dabuz went a mix of Olimar and Rosa during the tournament, but it nevertheless rose her to 34th. I forgot where Falco was before, but it seems like he got a notable boost to 35th. Might be placebo, but I think it is notably higher than it was before.
:ultrobin: Robin has expectantly gave out a large rise to 36th (tied with TLink and Samus/DSamus). Considering his limited representation, I wonder how long he can hold that position, but it is definitely a nice sight to see. Coincidentally, Shine 2016 is where everyone first talked about Robin in SSB4 after Dath's performance. Is it fate?
:ultpichu::ultike: Both of these characters got pretty poor placements early in the OS season 2, but it seems like both of them are improving with time. Pichu currently sits at 40th and Ike is at 48th, notable rises from what they were before.
:ultpiranha: Well so much for PPlant's time in the spotlight. It dropped all the way down to 46th, making it the worst ranking DLC character in the stats (Joker is at 2nd and Hero is at 39th).
:ultsheik::ultlucas::ultgunner: As stated before, I am pretty surprised that these three (plus :ultdoc: to a lesser extent) managed to be this high in the OS. Sheik is at 52nd, directly below Zelda and Wii Fit. Dr. Mario is at 53rd with MK and ICs. Lucas is at 59th with Ganondorf. Mii Gunner is at 64th with Bowser Jr., making her the highest of the three Miis. I have absolutely no idea where these characters are getting these results, especially Sheik, who seems to be completely abandoned by her playerbase.
:ultmewtwo: I've seen some new Mewtwo players come up from the scene after his buffs, so it is strange to see Mewtwo still at 0 points in the OS, especially if Corrin managed to somehow gets some points.
:ultroy::ultchrom: are probably better than their individual results indicate because their player base is split between them. They're both very strong characters with good option coverage, frame data and power who fit well in the metagame.

:ultyounglink::ulttoonlink::ultlink: are feeling the power creep from patches with characters like :ultfalcon: and :ultken: pulling ahead. They were in a weird spot of being good enough to not be buffed but bad enough that as characters and the meta developed they fell behind. Patches didn't nerf anyone besides Pichu hard enough for them to suddenly become relevant against top tiers. DLC didn't do them any favors either by giving people :ultjoker: (or even :ulthero: in Link's case) as flashy new alternatives to choose instead when the nerfs hit.
:ultyounglink::ultduckhunt: are good indications of how a strong neutral isn't as important in the meta as powerful reads, pokes and advantage. They're both neutral monsters with weak kill power and light weight who get passed by characters like :ultbowser: and :ultfalcon: who can kill early off a good read. Even with Raito, DH is still only 28th place. YL with top player rep could be 20-25th place imo but still far from top tier.
:ultrosalina::ultfalco: Rosa's lucky Debuz played her in SSB4 and didn't drop her in Ultimate. Both Rosa and Falco are capable of winning yet fairly average. Falco's light weight keeps him from being better, Rosa's too. They'd be pretty good as middle weights but are too frail at 82 units each.
:ultrobin::ultpiranha: got their day in the sun but are underwhelming characters.
:ultike:'s lost a lot of representation with MKLeo dropping him, Mars mostly dropping him and some other players going :ulthero: instead. He could still bounce back if people suddenly took an interest in him but there's no reason to.
 
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Ziodyne 21

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 11, 2016
Messages
1,659
Its strange that even with :ultfalcon: buffs the general opinion of hm this gsme has not changed that much. Even Fataility thinks he is still mid-high tier at best . He isnt bad, but maybe due to still having really bad MU's with common top-tier metagame threats.

But lets be real.. is still Captian freaking Falcon people will still play him even if he was the worst character in the game.
 
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NotLiquid

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 14, 2014
Messages
1,276
Its strange that even with :ultfalcon: buffs the general opinion of hm this gsme has not changed that much. Even Fataility thinks he is still mid-high tier at best . He isnt bad, but maybe due to still having really bad MU's with common top-tier metagame threats.
80% of most balance changes in Smash usually constitute quality of life improvements. The amount of buffs and nerfs in patches that generally serve to overhaul a character's meta in any meaningful ways or supplement their blind spots is usually the exception, not the rule with most of these updates.

Corrin is the prime example here. She's gotten buffed in every major patch; all changes which look good in a vacuum, but don't actually impact her overall bottom line. Meanwhile, Peach got nerfs which looked bad but she just won her first stacked A-tier. Some may argue Pichu fell hard due to nerfs but I'd argue the meta just developed against Pichu and that the nerfs exacerbated the downtrend. It hasn't stopped players like Blacktwins from performing extremely well with them.

I can't think of that many characters in the patch history up until this point who dropped or went up a significant amount outside of Ken/Ryu. Rosalina is debatable, but I'm kind of curious how much of Rosalina was just straight up bad pre-patch and how much of it was just Dabuz downplaying her at a time when there was no reason to not pick Olimar (who I still contend is top 5 despite a terrible shield which I have a hard time believing was intentional).
 

KirbySquad101

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 7, 2015
Messages
918
Her down-tilt, one of her best combo moves in 4, got nerfed too. Now it barely combos at all.
Time to be Mr. MicNitpicky here, buuuttt...

If we're talking from a technical standpoint, the move wasn't directly changed at all between SSB4 and Ultimate; it has the same frame data, knockback, and angle values as previously, so it does true combo in to up tilt at lower percentages, and at higher percents, it will true combo into up air, even at percents as high as 100%.

The only actual issue I have with comboing is at percents 50~60% and when you hit the opponent with it at point-blank range. Both the position the opponent ends up in and the balloon-y knockback in this game makes it so that's it hard to land an up tilt due to the latter's animation; in this regard, I find that neutral aerial will true combo, and (I think?) up aerial could true combo into as well, at least against characters without frame 1 attacks.

In that regard, it is somewhat worse; I find the move is still good as a combo tool, especially given its attributes (it's both frame 5 and disjointed).

I actually think :ultcorrinf: is pretty underrated, but I understand people's gripes with her, particularly her lack of good kill options; UThrow (which is something she has over the other FE characters), BAir, and UAir are all solid, but UThrow requires she gets a grab, UAir has a good coverage but can't hit grounded characters very well, and BAir doesn't have as good of an arc as other FE characters (barring Ike). I think making her FTilt more reliable as a kill option could mitigate this.

Its strange that even with :ultfalcon: buffs the general opinion of hm this gsme has not changed that much. Even Fataility thinks he is still mid-high tier at best . He isnt bad, but maybe due to still having really bad MU's with common top-tier metagame threats.

But lets be real.. is still Captian freaking Falcon people will still play him even if he was the worst character in the game.
I think Fatality's gripes with Captain Falcon are less of a more general problem and more of technical/attributable issues that the character still has from (Raptor Boost not always connecting, his bizarre hurtbox shifting during his initial dash, his turnaround dash being much worse than everyone else's), etc..

I honestly think that the character is a possible contender for a high tier, especially with both NickC's and Fatality's recent successes, but I imagine he has a lot of minor issues that make the character feel frustrating to play as.
 
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Ziodyne 21

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 11, 2016
Messages
1,659
Corrin is a pretty tragic case. I understand Pin needing nerfs because it was a borderline busted move in SSB4, but did they have to gut jsut about everything else of note too? . Even the buffs they got has not really made too much of a difference as his/her core flaws are still apparent as ever. Also similar to Marth the system changes likely did Corrin no favors
 
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Frihetsanka

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 26, 2016
Messages
1,976
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Sweden
If we're talking from a technical standpoint, the move wasn't directly changed at all between SSB4 and Ultimate; it has the same frame data, knockback, and angle values as previously, so it does true combo in to up tilt at lower percentages, and at higher percents, it will true combo into up air, even at percents as high as 100%.
I guess it's up-tilt that's nerfed then? Which, indirectly, makes down-tilt a worse option, since you get less off of a down-tilt since you can't down-tilt into up-tilt into up-tilt anymore (from what I've seen, anyway).

Her up-throw kills later, too. I'm not sure if it's just due to rage nerfs or if it got directly nerfed as well, but it's worse now. I don't think she's very good (probably around the bottom 10-20 range?).
 
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I guess it's up-tilt that's nerfed then? Which, indirectly, makes down-tilt a worse option, since you get less off of a down-tilt since you can't down-tilt into up-tilt into up-tilt anymore (from what I've seen, anyway).

Her up-throw kills later, too. I'm not sure if it's just due to rage nerfs or if it got directly nerfed as well, but it's worse now. I don't think she's very good (probably around the bottom 10-20 range?).
Up-Tilt is unchanged. As is Up-Throw (well, except for some very minor frame changes that don't affect its killing potency). As KirbySqaud said, Corrin got hit hard by the engine and stage changes (higher blast ceilings indirectly hurt moves that send upwards but remained unchanged from Smash 4).
 
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Lacrimosa

Smash Lord
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Mar 31, 2019
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Time to be Mr. MicNitpicky here, buuuttt...

If we're talking from a technical standpoint, the move wasn't directly changed at all between SSB4 and Ultimate; it has the same frame data, knockback, and angle values as previously, so it does true combo in to up tilt at lower percentages, and at higher percents, it will true combo into up air, even at percents as high as 100%.

The only actual issue I have with comboing is at percents 50~60% and when you hit the opponent with it at point-blank range. Both the position the opponent ends up in and the balloon-y knockback in this game makes it so that's it hard to land an up tilt due to the latter's animation; in this regard, I find that neutral aerial will true combo, and (I think?) up aerial could true combo into as well, at least against characters without frame 1 attacks.

So I guess it got a little worse? I do find the move is still good as a combo tool, especially given its attributes (it's both frame 5 and disjointed).

I actually think :ultcorrinf: is pretty underrated, but I understand people's gripes with her, particularly her lack of good kill options; UThrow (which is something she has over the other FE characters), BAir, and UAir are all solid, but UThrow requires she gets a grab, UAir has a good coverage but can't hit grounded characters very well, and BAir doesn't have as good range as the other FE characters. I think making her FTilt more reliable as a kill option could mitigate this.



I think Fatality's gripes with Captain Falcon are less of a more general problem and more of technical/attributable issues that the character still has from (Raptor Boost not always connecting, his bizarre hurtbox shifting during his initial dash, his turnaround dash being much worse than everyone else's), etc..

I honestly think that the character is a possible contender for a high tier, especially with both NickC's and Fatality's recent successes, but I imagine he has a lot of minor issues that make the character feel frustrating to play as.
I'd like they change the knockback angle on her fAir.
It sends the opponent up which makes no real sense. It should send forward so you get the opponent further away from the stage. She's rather bad at edgeguarding therefore.
 

blackghost

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 9, 2015
Messages
2,183
Well, his neutral relies largely on enforcing a specific kind of interaction and capitalizing off of it. Let's consider his common neutral options: dashing up and grabbing (yes, really), Forward Aerial, and Blaster. They all do different things, dashgrab is fairly quick (His grabs are all Mario speed, so very good data) and he has some of the most stable throw combos in the game. Forward aerial seems like pretty low reward until you learn how it works. If you hit someone air to air with it (which isn't uncommon, the best options in this game come from being airborne, and Falco's Fair is a blazing fast Frame 7 aerial with considerable range) you can buffer a dragdown into Utilt, and you know where this is going. This works at all percentages. If Fair hits someone grounded, its not all that bad either. The landing hitbox has good base knockback meaning you'll win a lot of stage at a wide % range, and Falco's edgeguarding is really good.

Blaster is surprisingly not talked about. The frame data on it is amazing! Sub frame 10 startup on both versions, FAF 41 on the ground and 38 in the air? That's incredibly good! Its big shortcomings are its low damage and hitstun, but its very good at enforcing chip damage and encouraging an approach from his opponent. It also couples really well with his reflector, making common projectile turtling strategies a bit harder vs. him.

These tend to be Falco's common good neutral options, they're somewhat limited compared to other top tier characters but they're really adequate for getting things started.

I do agree ranking him is hard, I think he is a certifiably good character, definitely. How good is really hard to quantify but his placings have outranked any notion that he's bad, I find.
so falco wants to operate in a set gameplan but within that gamelan he is elite.thats good. if part of his game depends on dash grabs how impactful is his dash speed being ranked 50th? The initial dahs speed is in the top third of the cast but if he's playing this midrange game of blaster, fair, ad dash grab does his speed impact his ability to be consistent in executing his gameplan?
 

$.A.F.

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 13, 2018
Messages
426
Location
The Plant Gang HQ
Soooooo VoiD released Part two. I feel that his reasoning for putting Mac that high is very flawed. He only used the umebura placement as a reason while simultaneously ignoring better performances at majors from characters he ranked lower. Characters such as K. Rool, Robin, Jr. and especially Sonic have better breakout results than Mac if that line of reason is to be used. With that said how good do you believe Sonic to be in the current Metagame? I believe him to be at the lower end of high tier. His results rival Pikachu’s for goodness sakes. That doesn’t sound to me like a generic mid tier. He also is stupid fast (duh) has some really good moves like homing attack and even spin dash, and a good recovery.
 

SwagGuy99

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 28, 2016
Messages
713
Its strange that even with :ultfalcon: buffs the general opinion of hm this gsme has not changed that much. Even Fataility thinks he is still mid-high tier at best . He isnt bad, but maybe due to still having really bad MU's with common top-tier metagame threats.

But lets be real.. is still Captian freaking Falcon people will still play him even if he was the worst character in the game.
I'm going to be honest, he's very close to being bad.

His disadvantage is horrible. Think along the lines of DK but arguably worse. His speed is enough to keep him from having the worst disadvantage in the game, but he has a lot of trouble recovering and getting off the ledge. His out of shield options aren't great unless the opponent is literally right next to him (in which case up-b is actually not that bad).

Falcon is arguably the easiest character to combo in the game who isn't a super-heavyweight. His fast falling speed, large hurtbox, poor landing options, and lack of fast combo breakers.

He's a combo based character with good juggling and decent edgeguarding which is great but he's vulnerable to characters who are half-way decent at any of those things as well.

His main combo-finishers/kill moves are all underwhelming, slow, or lacking in range with the exceptions of up-smash and up-b (which needs to be used at close range so it's still not perfect).

Falcon struggles against campy characters as well due to his other various issues and because he doesn't have any projectiles himself.

Finally, his approach isn't that great due to lack of fast burst options (with the exception of dash attack which can become predictable) and because of his lack of a good dash dance.

So yeah, Falcon is decent at edgeguarding, comboing, juggling, and capitalizing on disadvantage state.

He's also vulnerable to characters who are good at those other things as well as generally struggling in disadvantage, when recovering, or against campy characters.

Edit:

A few minor things:

Falcon most likely has no winning top tier matchups. Nobody will disagree that Falcon clearly loses to Top Tiers like :ultpikachu::ultmario::ultlucina::ultroy::ultchrom::ultpeach::ultwario: and even to high and mid tiers like :ultfalco::ultluigi::ultgnw::ulttoonlink::ultyounglink::ultyoshi::ultlucas::ultness: but when your character arguably is one of :ultkirby:'s best matchups, it's clear that your character has some pretty significant problems.

Also, :ultfalcon: is better than :ultganondorf: but not by that much. They are both in the lower end of mid tier and I can one of them or both of them rising or dropping slightly in the tier list in the future.
 
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Lacrimosa

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 31, 2019
Messages
1,255
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Germany
Falcon loses to a very large pool of characters. Even characters you wouldn't really expect like Zelda and that's mostly because of Phantom. Falcon has no disjoints and no projectiles and if trying to approach from above Falcon most likely gets hit by the upwards slash which is the 4th stage of the phantom. He can't edgeguard her, Nayru gets you out of a lot of his combos and the MU is rather rough for him despite his speed which is like his only saving here.

Anyway, Void's tier list pt. 2 is out:
Mid-tier::ultzelda::ultkingdedede::ultsamus::ultlucas::ultganondorf::ultincineroar::ultmewtwo::ulthero::ultridley::ultvillager::ultryu::ultcorrinf::ultlittlemac:
Low-mid-tier: :ultsonic::ultdk::ultswordfighter::ultgunner::ultdoc::ultpit::ultdarkpit::ultrobinf::ultkrool:
Low-tier: :ultbowserjr::ultisabelle::ultkirby:


Not entirely sure why he feels than Plant is better then the upper half of mid-tier, but ok. Brood is rather inconsistent when looking at the results. Yes, he's gotten 2nd place but at the upcoming local with less people he got pretty much smoked by KEN's Sonic in losers but also in Winner's bracket. I guess that's where you can see that one tournament influences a person's perception.
 

Impax

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 18, 2015
Messages
154
Falcon loses to a very large pool of characters. Even characters you wouldn't really expect like Zelda and that's mostly because of Phantom. Falcon has no disjoints and no projectiles and if trying to approach from above Falcon most likely gets hit by the upwards slash which is the 4th stage of the phantom. He can't edgeguard her, Nayru gets you out of a lot of his combos and the MU is rather rough for him despite his speed which is like his only saving here.

Anyway, Void's tier list pt. 2 is out:
Mid-tier::ultzelda::ultkingdedede::ultsamus::ultlucas::ultganondorf::ultincineroar::ultmewtwo::ulthero::ultridley::ultvillager::ultryu::ultcorrinf::ultlittlemac:
Low-mid-tier: :ultsonic::ultdk::ultswordfighter::ultgunner::ultdoc::ultpit::ultdarkpit::ultrobinf::ultkrool:
Low-tier: :ultbowserjr::ultisabelle::ultkirby:


Not entirely sure why he feels than Plant is better then the upper half of mid-tier, but ok. Brood is rather inconsistent when looking at the results. Yes, he's gotten 2nd place but at the upcoming local with less people he got pretty much smoked by KEN's Sonic in losers but also in Winner's bracket. I guess that's where you can see that one tournament influences a person's perception.
I think void has always had a high opinion of plant. At least I remember reading that on here somewhere
 

KirbySquad101

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 7, 2015
Messages
918
Time to play the devil's advocate again (lol):

I'm hearing a lot of things about :ultfalcon: not being very good/having a lot of problematic match-ups on paper, yet I'm seeing a much different story in practice:

1. He's currently ranked #23 on OrionStats, just above :ultsonic: and just below :ultbowser:.
2. He had 2 strong performances at both Super Smash Con (Fatality and Nick C placed 25th and 17th respectively) and Shine (NickC placed 13th).

So what exactly is going on? To answer a few rebuttals:

- "It's just NickC and Fatality that are very good"
NickC and Fatality are very good players, but couldn't this be said for other characters? "It's not :ultchrom: that's good, it's just Rivers that's really good, it's not :ultinkling: that's good, it's just Cosmos that's really good, it's not :ultpacman: that's good, it's just Tea/Sinji are really good, it's not :ultpikachu: that's good, it's just ESAM that's really good, etc...." When exactly does a characters' success become completely attributed to just the player and not the character? Where do we draw the line? If the rule is that he needs at least more than one player to prove his worth, then Falcon's got that more than covered with Fatality and NickC backing him up. I feel like in instances like these, I think it's best to give credit to both the player and the character: The player is very strong, but they're also proving the character has it what it takes to make it far.

- "He didn't run into his problematic match-ups"
Given that we're almost a year into the game now, I find it hard to believe that :ultfalcon: hasn't run into at least a few bad match-ups. In fact, out of all the sets I've seen with Fatality/NickC, the only two I can actually see being big problems for him are :ultpichu: and :ultgnw:, and even in the latter's case, a lot of it could be chalked up to NickC's lack of experience in the match-up against Maister. This isn't to say he only has 2 losing match-ups, but even if he did have other losing match-ups, I feel like they're all manageable and not actually impactful enough to make much a difference in high level play.

So what exactly is bad about Captain Falcon?

- His disadvantage state, as stated earlier, isn't very good; he doesn't have very many fast aerial options to land with, his big size, heavyweight, and fall speed make him easy combo fodder against characters like :ultmario:, and his recovery is exploitable thanks to the rockcrocking technique (although I actually haven't seen this be much of an issue thanks to how Captain Falcon can mix-up the timing of his Falcon Dive). However, because of Falcon Dive's distance, I actually haven't seen instances of Falcon's recovery being gimped that often.

- His hitboxes and range aren't the exactly the stuff of kings; a lot of his attacks lack either horizontal reach (DAir, USmash) or vertical reach (NAir, BAir). I feel like this isn't actually that much of an issue as the extent of its impact is just requiring Captain Falcon players to be more precise with their movement, something that is mostly mitigated by Captain Falcon's phenomenal attributes (though his initial dash could be better), somewhat like :ultzss:. This does become a bigger problem against smaller characters like :ultsquirtle: or :ultpichu:, however.

- He does have random technical issues that most characters seem to have; aside from his turnaround dash, his Raptor Boost is kinda broken..? Even after the buffs, the move apparently has a very hard time actually connecting properly with enemies; I'm not sure if this was as much of a problem as in SSB4, but either way, I can see why NickC has used the move far less than before.

So what is good about Captain Falcon?

- Well, for a character that is a combo-reffic Speedy Gonzales, the dude's got a very solid weight stat of 104 units, the same as :ultlink: and 6 units above :ultmario:. While this can nip him in the butt sometimes as it makes him even easier to combo, it becomes a life saver at higher percents, especially against characters that struggle to land the finishing blow like :ultpeach: or :ultyoshi:, which in turn allows him to take full advantage of rage. This sort of leads me into my second point...


- He can take stocks. Like STUPID early. I know it may sound like a meme to overhype it, but watching NickC's recent sets will continue to remind me on just how integral NAir Hit 1 has become to Captain Falcon as far as getting a lead and dishing out as much pain as possible is concerned. The thing is, the move wouldn't even be that great on most other characters, but for someone as good mobility as Falcon, the confirm gives him such a generous window to take stocks with, setting up kills as early as 60% with a Knee Smash, all the way towards still continuing to confirm as high as 140% with stuff like a BAir or sourspotted DAir. The best part? It's only -4 on block, which is amazing, especially considering how Captain Falcon's improved air mobility allows him to cross-up with it relatively easily.

Speaking of confirms, DAir is pretty nutty too; not quite as good as NAir, given that it's more laggy compared to the latter, but again, it gives Captain Falcon such a strong confirm at low percents; the thing is, even without landing the sweetspot, the sourspot's got mad KO potential, capable of taking stocks at surprisingly low percents. It helps to serve in making the move a consistently strong option to land with, and unless you have a strong OoS like :ultmario: or :ultgnw:, it can be very hard to punish. This is the part where you have to take into account that both these attacks are tacked on the same character, and that's not even the half of it.

Because even without his confirms, he really doesn't have much problems KOing outside of that: BAir is strong and spammable, Dash Attack is a fast burst option, the Gentleman is great at the ledge due to Jab 1's ability to cancel into itself, Falcon Kick covers landings very well, and there's probably something else I'm missing, but you get the picture. When you take into account his own weight versus the fact that almost all of his attacks start becoming kill options at high percents - whether it's a DTilt by the ledge, a DAir 2-frame, or heck, even an UAir/Falcon Dive snipe from off the top - it's pretty easy to start feeling like you're under major pressure by the dude.

- What I think gels all of his power together is his phenomenal movement. While his initial dash isn't exactly great, everything else is top notch, and he's definitely feeling the above average buff he got to his air speed, which is now on par with :ultmario:'s and :ultinkling:'s; like :ultsonic:, it gives him a powerful neutral as well as some very strong mix-up and cross-up options with both NAir and DAir, but it's also a part of why NickC is able to land confirms so consistently with stuff like the Knee of Justice or why he's able to be so precise in his movement in times where he needs to be. It almost kind of gives Falcon the ability to be everywhere you don't want him to be, and when you take this into account along with everything else, it sort of makes me relieved he has such a bad disadvantage state; he feels like :ultrob: (except obviously not as good) where his terrible disadvantage is the one major thing holding back what's otherwise a juggernaut of a character who gets a massive reward off of his advantage states.

- On a side note, Falcon Dive is surprisingly decent as an OoS; it functions less like an immediate answer like :ultmario:'s Super Jump Punch, and more like :ultchrom:'s Soaring Slash, where Captain Falcon's drift and the move's surprisingly large grabboxes make it a strong option for punishing laggier options, even ones that are well spaced out; it's also great for catching rising hop aerial cross-ups, like how NickC used it against Dark Wizzy's rising BAirs during their sets at Shine.


That pretty much sums up my ramblings thoughts on Falcon: He's got a really good punish game that's only really held back by a poor disadvantage state; to me, I don't think it's enough to peg him down below upper mid tier.
 
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Rizen

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:ultfalcon:'s buffs were significant. I've played vs him before and after the buffs and he enjoys the larger hitboxes. CF's become a lot closer to a sword character, although he still loses to disjoints. Sweet Fair is not that hard to land now and stupidly powerful. One move I never see talked about is Nair but it's good. It's basically Ganon's Nair and has great reach. The extra armor on raptor boost wasn't trivial either. He can armor through a lot of midrange options with it. His f3 jab is also a great option that lets him out button most of the cast when very close.
He also fits in well with the meta. Like Kirbysquad said, CF has strong punishes and kill options and is a mobile character. The meta really favors being able to burst in or pivot and kill early off a read.

It's no mistake CF's climbed to #23. Bowser too for similar meta reasons.
 

Ziodyne 21

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Captian Falcons issue is that his kinda bad MU spread vs many top-tier and other common meta characters. He loses pretty bad to :ultpikachu::ultzss::ultpalutena::ultlucina::ultinkling::ultwario::ultpeach:andd i think he goes even at best wiry most other top tiers. :ultmario: is also pretty rough for him. He may have mobilty strong punish and burst options. But another part is having a strong disadvantage or ways to get out of those situations . That is unortuantely where Falcon suffers hard
 
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Lacrimosa

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Next part of Void's tier-list is out and there are some really odd placements coming up in the next video.
(Don't know about the thumbnail; Hero isn't in that tier)

Upper-mid-tier: :ultrosalina::ultdiddy::ultfalco::ultmetaknight::ultness::ultrichter::ultmarth::ulticeclimbers::ultbrawler::ulttoonlink::ultwiifittrainer::ultfalcon::ultlucario:
Mid-tier::ultzelda::ultkingdedede::ultsamus::ultlucas::ultganondorf::ultincineroar::ultmewtwo::ulthero::ultridley::ultvillager::ultryu::ultcorrinf::ultlittlemac:
Low-mid-tier: :ultsonic::ultdk::ultswordfighter::ultgunner::ultdoc::ultpit::ultdarkpit::ultrobinf::ultkrool:
Low-tier: :ultbowserjr::ultisabelle::ultkirby:


Curious will be these placings: :ultjigglypuff::ultbayonetta::ultike::ultpiranha::ultsheik:

These are all characters I wouldn't really consider high-tier in any way, but I'm interested in his reasoning. Especially Puff because her OrionStat rank is in the bottom 15 if not worse.
I don't know if they overlooked some of them, but yeah.
 
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bc1910

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Regarding Corrin, it doesn't surprise me that she finds herself nerfed in Ultimate. It's fairly safe to assume that the devs weighted top-end For Glory matches as heavily as they do Elite Smash now. S4 Corrin was basically a mini-Cloud in For Glory with a ridiculous Nair, great range and strong overall kill power. Though she of course lacked Limit, she had her own unique brand of cheese with pin, as well as a counter that added extreme risk to juggles by sending opponents straight up with huge knockback (which iirc was actually nerfed shortly after her release). Corrin was a For Glory menace and certainly one of the characters that come to mind when I think about Sakurai's assertion that the most successful characters are often not the ones that the top players think.

Part of me wonders whether this affected Lucas as well. He was a worse character than Corrin but also had his fair share of "annoying" tools. With a good projectile in PK Fire, a tricky neutral tool in Zair and easybake throw combos with multiple kill throws AND a Hoo Hah, he had a plethora of strengths which I expect held him in good stead against the impatient players and shield campers who infested S4 online. A lot of these tools were made worse or outright taken away from him with the exception of PK Fire which is now better (I mean, he needs something). It's worth noting that the game mechanics aren't kind to Lucas either though.

I think we will slowly see buffs for the old S4 high tiers, as we have been, but I'm not sure we'll see any rise to their previous levels of strength or usage without some pretty substantial buffs and potentially reversions of nerfs.
 

Lacrimosa

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Hero is probably clickbait.

Anyway, why would Sonic be so low?
Main reason is that his upAir doesn't work properly and he'd shoot up at least 2 tiers if it does.
Like, Sonic lacks killing but his upAir isn't his gameplan-defining move, so it's indeed an odd placement, especially considering his 24th(?) rank on the current OIrion stats.
 
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