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Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

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  • Total voters
    575

MH-Jin

Smash Cadet
Joined
Aug 29, 2016
Messages
41
Location
Ontario, Canada
I dunno. :ultzss: still managed to be up there despite losing her SSB4 d-throw ladder combos which were big reason she was top-tier im that game. ZSS got lots of direct and indirect buffs in the transition to Ultimate to where you need to play her differently
It's due to multiple factors. Even though ZSS lost a major kill setup, she got multiple buffs that help offset it and giving her an overall better neutral. Plus, the ultimate engine really benefits her, especially if she's playing a more hit and run style and aids her mobility as a whole.

She has consistent punishes off tech chasing now with her down smash, jab locking with a frame 1 jab and being able to do them out of a dash . Also boost kick working consistently is more beneficial to her rather than being inconsistent on skinny bodies/smash 4 dlc even if it killed off the top earlier, since it works better now as an oos option.

She also still has consistent follow ups off zair, Nair and bair (this one at low percents). Her newest tool in this game though, is her fair. It has an amazing scoop up from a short hop and she can follow up off falling fair1 (even at high percents) which really helps against smaller characters.

She also gained a safe on shield mid range poke with side b that can both shield poke at close range, combo and kill along with less cool down on her neutral b. This allows her to have more pressure options at mid range as well as covering ledge options that she mainly used with zair back in smash 4.

I think what may hold zss back right now though, was alluded in Esam's video about her. While she now may be winning neutral more often, she's not getting crazy damage output from each interaction. So the player will rely on getting reads, early conversion to spike, killing oos and edgeguarding etc. However this type of constant interaction and engagement may need to happen frequently in order for the zss to get the kill (unless she gets an early spike/gimp). During that time, she may be putting herself more at risk as the match progresses, even if she has down b for escaping.
 
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The_Bookworm

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 10, 2018
Messages
2,967
In terms of DLC character placements:
:ultjoker: is at a steady 4th place, only slightly above :ultpalutena:, and with only :ultwolf::ultpokemontrainer::ultsnake: above him. There is a notable gap between Joker and Snake, but with Ally gone and Salem focusing on Hero for now, there may be a chance that Joker might exceed him.
:ultpiranha: has soared to 39th place after Brood and Rai's performance at Umebura SP 4. Not too surprised, but we will see if it can hold that position.
:ulthero: is tied with :ultzelda::ultdk: at 42nd place. While his presence at higher level play has been lackluster so far, his popularity at low and (to a lesser extent) mid level play is definitely helping him out. This is also helped out by a few top players fooling around with him for fun at pools (such as Tsu and Tea at Umebura SP 4).


Outside of DLC characters, there are a few others to note:
:ultlittlemac: is now at 54th place thanks to Tarakotori's 13th at Umebura SP 4.
:ultsonic::ultshulk: are also both big benefactors of Umebura SP 4, with KEN getting 4th and Kome getting 7th (being the first time a solo Shulk got top 8 at a major). Sonic is now at 21st place and Shulk is now at 22nd place.
:ultlucina::ultchrom: both daughter and father have fallen down a little bit, with Lucina now at tied with :ultinkling: at 15th place and Chrom now at 19th place. Lucina doesn't like MkLeo not really using her anymore in tournaments, and Chrom doesn't really like Rivers not being the most active player this season.
:ultvillager: recent performances from Kept has definitely risen the character much higher than before, now being at 45th place.
:ultkrool: he somehow got some points, now with 2.5 points. This means that :ultmewtwo::ultcorrin: are the only characters with absolutely 0 points.
 
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The_Bookworm

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 10, 2018
Messages
2,967
Midwest Arena 2: Doubles Masters (Category 3 Tournament)


1st: ATATA:ultness:
2nd: MuteAce:ultpeach:
3rd: Mystearica:ultzelda:
4th: 8BitMan:ultrob::ultdiddy:
5th: Ned:ultjoker::ultpokemontrainerf:
5th: Frosty:ultrichter:
7th: Gomakenpi:ulthero::ultolimar:
7th: Goblin:ultroy:
9th: Advo:ultsamus::ultgnw:
9th: Lucky:ultpiranha:
9th: Daybreak:ultwolf:
9th: Comet:ultfox:


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Btw, can someone commission stock icons for the other three Heroes to be used in Smashboards? We have male and female variations all around, as well as other variations like Alph and the Koopalings, so I think it makes sense.
 
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$.A.F.

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 13, 2018
Messages
426
Location
The Plant Gang HQ
Midwest Arena 2: Doubles Masters (Category 3 Tournament)


1st: ATATA:ultness:
2nd: MuteAce:ultpeach:
3rd: Mystearica:ultzelda:
4th: 8BitMan:ultrob::ultdiddy:
5th: Ned:ultjoker::ultpokemontrainerf:
5th: Frosty:ultrichter:
7th: Gomakenpi:ulthero::ultolimar:
7th: Goblin:ultroy:
9th: Advo:ultsamus::ultgnw:
9th: Lucky:ultpiranha:
9th: Daybreak:ultwolf:
9th: Comet:ultfox:


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Btw, can someone commission stock icons for the other three Heroes to be used in Smashboards? We have male and female variations all around, as well as other variations like Alph and the Koopalings, so I think it makes sense.
And here come more Plant results. That’s two Plants making top 16 at two majors in under a week, three making top 24, and one making grands at two separate majors in the span of a week in different regions. How many points does this placement get for Plant BTW?
 

Deathcarter

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 9, 2007
Messages
1,358
Saw a post on reddit about a Japanese Tournament, Toryumon # 32 and saw that Tsu went Hero at the tournament, getting second losing to Ken. Combing the vod for matches involving Tsu:

https://youtu.be/lhY1yMV7lTI?t=3195 Tsu vs kept (Villager)
https://youtu.be/lhY1yMV7lTI?t=8910 Tsu vs Manzoku (Toon Link)
https://youtu.be/lhY1yMV7lTI?t=9747 Tsu vs Raito (Pokemon Trainer)
https://youtu.be/lhY1yMV7lTI?t=10274 Tsu vs HIKARU (Bayonetta)
https://youtu.be/lhY1yMV7lTI?t=10758 Tsu vs KEN (Sonic) Grand Finals
 
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The_Bookworm

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 10, 2018
Messages
2,967
Saw a post on reddit about a Japanese Tournament, Toryumon # 32 and saw that Tsu went Hero at the tournament, getting second losing to Ken. Combing the vod for matches involving Tsu:

https://youtu.be/lhY1yMV7lTI?t=3195 Tsu vs kept (Villager)
https://youtu.be/lhY1yMV7lTI?t=8910 Tsu vs Manzoku (Toon Link)
https://youtu.be/lhY1yMV7lTI?t=9747 Tsu vs Raito (Pokemon Trainer)
https://youtu.be/lhY1yMV7lTI?t=10274 Tsu vs HIKARU (Bayonetta)
https://youtu.be/lhY1yMV7lTI?t=10758 Tsu vs KEN (Sonic) Grand Finals
Raito went PkMn Trainer and HIKARU went Bayo?

Japan's competitive scene is truly an...... odd place to say the least.

And here come more Plant results. That’s two Plants making top 16 at two majors in under a week, three making top 24, and one making grands at two separate majors in the span of a week in different regions. How many points does this placement get for Plant BTW?
Lucky:ultpiranha: had a relatively easy bracket aside from encountering (and losing to) Panda Bair:ultvillager: and Gomakenpi:ulthero:. The only really challenging player he beat was Super Dan:ultmario:.

PPlant right now has a total 28.5 points, which puts it in 39th place. The current Orion Ranks already counted Midwest Arena 2. It is in between :ultken::ultlink: (30 points) and :ultrosalina: (28.25 points).
 
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Impax

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 18, 2015
Messages
154
We may get additional results from klaatu as well. I believe he picked up plant as a comain.
 

Lacrimosa

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 31, 2019
Messages
1,255
Location
Germany
Midwest Arena 2: Doubles Masters (Category 3 Tournament)


1st: ATATA:ultness:
2nd: MuteAce:ultpeach:
3rd: Mystearica:ultzelda:
4th: 8BitMan:ultrob::ultdiddy:
5th: Ned:ultjoker::ultpokemontrainerf:
5th: Frosty:ultrichter:
7th: Gomakenpi:ulthero::ultolimar:
7th: Goblin:ultroy:
9th: Advo:ultsamus::ultgnw:
9th: Lucky:ultpiranha:
9th: Daybreak:ultwolf:
9th: Comet:ultfox:


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Btw, can someone commission stock icons for the other three Heroes to be used in Smashboards? We have male and female variations all around, as well as other variations like Alph and the Koopalings, so I think it makes sense.
This makes Myst's sudden absence at Shine even worse.

Or maybe the people at smash.gg made a mistake since his Twitter doesn't mention dropping out at all.
 
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Diddy Kong

Smash Obsessed
Joined
Dec 8, 2004
Messages
25,135
Switch FC
SW-1597-979602774
Midwest Arena 2: Doubles Masters (Category 3 Tournament)


1st: ATATA:ultness:
2nd: MuteAce:ultpeach:
3rd: Mystearica:ultzelda:
4th: 8BitMan:ultrob::ultdiddy:
5th: Ned:ultjoker::ultpokemontrainerf:
5th: Frosty:ultrichter:
7th: Gomakenpi:ulthero::ultolimar:
7th: Goblin:ultroy:
9th: Advo:ultsamus::ultgnw:
9th: Lucky:ultpiranha:
9th: Daybreak:ultwolf:
9th: Comet:ultfox:


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Btw, can someone commission stock icons for the other three Heroes to be used in Smashboards? We have male and female variations all around, as well as other variations like Alph and the Koopalings, so I think it makes sense.
Diddy is always being used as a secondary it seems... Did 8bitman use him much in the tournament? I kinda feel Diddy is slipping off the radar again after his previous buffs because other characters received better buffs (Corrin, Mewtwo for example) which leads people to of course dismiss Diddy again. It’s a shame because I believe he still has potential for more. After the buffs I considered him a lower High Tier, now am not sure anymore. Definitely wouldn’t hurt to buff his old strengths again just like they did with Mario and ZSS.
 

Rizen

Smash Legend
Joined
May 7, 2009
Messages
14,678
Location
Colorado
Diddy is always being used as a secondary it seems... Did 8bitman use him much in the tournament? I kinda feel Diddy is slipping off the radar again after his previous buffs because other characters received better buffs (Corrin, Mewtwo for example) which leads people to of course dismiss Diddy again. It’s a shame because I believe he still has potential for more. After the buffs I considered him a lower High Tier, now am not sure anymore. Definitely wouldn’t hurt to buff his old strengths again just like they did with Mario and ZSS.
I know what you mean. YL's in a similar position where he's good but not rewarding enough for how technical he is and gets little use.

I think Diddy's probably lower high tier. I played one recently and Diddy has a really good midrange game with bananas. He's good at CQC but lacks the disjoint of certain characters and the recovery buffs helped. It's too bad he's not used more.

________________________________
There probably won't ever be an official MU chart and the best we can hope for is a conglomeration of top players' of each character's MU charts. The problem is any given MU is subject to variation based on different experiences within at least a point either way. I could say "YL vs Wolf is even" and someone else could claim "Wolf wins +1" and neither would be wrong. Only MUs which are blatantly bad can really be said go one way and even then it's debatable how much. This is especially hard when comparing characters of the same tier who probably have a similar power level as opposed to comparing a high vs low tier MU.
 

Cheryl~

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 27, 2018
Messages
395
Switch FC
SW-1511-1076-9918
I'd like to dip my toes into this discussion of why these characters that were buffed in patches still aren't seeing the usage/results that they may have been hyped up to get after they got buffed. This is a pretty common topic since a lot of relatively rare characters have gotten buffed recently (think :ultmewtwo:,:ultcorrinf:,:ultdiddy:, or :ultpit::ultdarkpit:) but still don't receive much usage in tournament play.

A.) Why pick up a new character when your current main still works? Now this is mostly referring to upper-level tournament play as most casual and lower-level players can pick up a new character and do fine because of their lower skill cap. But when it comes to bigger tourneys, a lot of top players usually solo main or carry a secondary around for certain hard matchups. A good example of this is MkLeo who's been solo maining Joker recently and only plans to use his new secondary, Chrom, for matchups that he finds annoying for Joker. This is a fair and common mindset, but when it comes to these rarer and more unknown characters, they often don't get picked up by these upper level players even after they got buffed. For example, Cosmos is still going to go solo Inkling despite Corrin receiving good buffs to her recovery and some other moves. An exception to this is WaDi, who picked up :ultwiifittrainerm: as a secondary shortly after their big 3.0.0 buffs and has used them a few times in bigger tourneys. (He used them in his set against Lui$ at Smash Con for example.) However, one could say that putting time into Wii Fit isn't worth it when his R.O.B. is still beating plenty of top-level players and can do well even in harder MUs. This is likely one of the reasons why WaDi rarely goes WFT because R.O.B. still does fine for him and he doesn't want to lose too much grind time in R.O.B. by practicing Wii Fit.

B.) The vicious cycle of a character's results being low being tied to them being seen as bad. Now this is a tricky point to discuss as many people could say "Oh this character doesn't get results because they're Bottom 5 anyway" and it can apply to some characters like Kirby and King K. Rool, but for characters like Mewtwo and Corrin who are generally seen as mid-tier, they can be seen as having hidden potential that hasn't been reached yet because well, nobody plays them. Of course there's always the character specialists that spout stuff about their character's potential and are on occasion right (:ultpiranha: mains rejoicing after Brood showcased their character's potential in ledge-trapping), but we may never know just how good someone like Mewtwo can be without someone playing them at a higher level and showing all of the stuff that Mewtwo can do. Mewtwo's actually a great example of this because back in Smash 4, nobody wanted to put time into him until Abadango showed his tricks at Pound, and his playerbase only increased after Mewtwo got buffed to a low top tier character. If someone were to get great results with Mewtwo in this game after his buffs, perhaps more players would be interested in trying him out and bringing him at more top-ranked tourneys, thus proving Mewtwo's potential and improving his results to show that potential. However, the sad truth is that right now, a character like Mewtwo just doesn't have the results or the playerbase getting results, and thus will be looked down upon by other players except for those few that play Mewtwo mains and are like "GUYS MEWTWO IS TOP 25" on Twitter. (They exist and you know it, except maybe not for Mewtwo because nobody actually plays that character)

C.) The above point about Abadango's run with pre-patch Mewtwo in Smash 4 kind of ties into this next unfortunate point. Even though Abadango's run theoretically proves that a rare character that's perceived as low-tier can get good results (Brood's run too), the unfortunate reality is that for some characters they usually won't get the chance to make these results because their best players just aren't at the top level as players like Abadango, Brood, or Dabuz with Ultimate Rosalina. Like for Corrin, her playerbase is already tiny enough that it's hard to find good players for her, especially without Cosmos at the helm of her meta. Her best mains are players like LetsTickle and Shadic, who have achieved decent results at the tourneys they've gone to but no breakouts really. LetsTickle mainly uses Inkling too, which doesn't exactly help Corrin's argument here. What I'm trying to say is that even a best main for a rare lower-tiered character may be very good, they still may not be on the top-top level and thus won't achieve the best results. Another example I could say is my main Lucas. While I do believe that players like 8Mitsuki, Hakadama, and Mekos could achieve great results if they went to bigger tourneys more often (it hurts even more that two of the players I mentioned are Japanese and don't travel much at all), you can't really say they are PGR level because they haven't done anything too notable outside of 8Mitsuki winning some bigger tournaments in his region. This point can also be expanded to players who are clearly great, but don't have the opportunity to travel to prove their character's might. I'll use the Pits for this, as Trela has been a lot of time into them recently and we all know how good Trela is, so you'd think he can show up to a major and showcase those nice Pit buffs. Well, sadly, Trela hasn't attended anything outside of his region since his disappointing performance at Prime Saga, so Pit's results are still as good as dead at the moment. However, it's not impossible of course, because these players are always improving and may break out in the same fashion as Joker the :ultsamus: main who nobody knew anything about until he took Cosmos to Game 5 and got 9th at Low Tier City. This result improved some people's opinions on Samus after Joker showcased the amazing movement options and mixups that Samus has. You could even apply this to :ultdiddy:, as Dakpo got 13th at the same tournament (which was after Diddy's buffs!).


Overall, I just wanted to make this post just to give some of my ideas on this topic of these buffed characters and why they still haven't seen much exposure in tournaments after their buffs. Like I said, it's definitely not impossible to get notable results even if your character doesn't have a player that's on a Dabuz or Brood level. But it'll definitely be hard when the playerbase is small and nobody's willing to get into those characters. A harsh reality truly, although honestly I'd rather not see someone like Isabelle being played everywhere. :awesome:
 

Impax

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 18, 2015
Messages
154
Diddy is always being used as a secondary it seems... Did 8bitman use him much in the tournament? I kinda feel Diddy is slipping off the radar again after his previous buffs because other characters received better buffs (Corrin, Mewtwo for example) which leads people to of course dismiss Diddy again. It’s a shame because I believe he still has potential for more. After the buffs I considered him a lower High Tier, now am not sure anymore. Definitely wouldn’t hurt to buff his old strengths again just like they did with Mario and ZSS.
I think legit still mains diddy. But I'm not sure how often he travels. He did just get second in a local (lost to Lui$)
 

Lacrimosa

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 31, 2019
Messages
1,255
Location
Germany
A point that co-exists besides Cheryl~ Cheryl~ 's point A is that a lot people already put in work with the character they are already playing.
Like, Ven was and will always be a Zelda main. There is no reason to change her for Pit who, despite the nerfs, became a much better character and let's say also better than Zelda (which imo isn't the case, but let's just go with it).
Now, why should he let the work he put into improving his Zelda go to waste in a game where all characters are all fairly close? It doesn't really make much sense to pick up Pit then because he didn't start with Pit from the beginning. So, if a character isn't picked up immediately from the beginning there's little chance this character will appear later on when the meta has progressed. DLC chars don't really count because unlike Pit, they weren't there from the start and people are eager to find out what Joker/Hero/Banjo or Bayo/Cloud can do.

Maybe that's what should be expressed with point A and my not-so-deep understanding of the English language didn't grasp that.
 

The_Bookworm

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 10, 2018
Messages
2,967
Diddy is always being used as a secondary it seems... Did 8bitman use him much in the tournament? I kinda feel Diddy is slipping off the radar again after his previous buffs because other characters received better buffs (Corrin, Mewtwo for example) which leads people to of course dismiss Diddy again. It’s a shame because I believe he still has potential for more. After the buffs I considered him a lower High Tier, now am not sure anymore. Definitely wouldn’t hurt to buff his old strengths again just like they did with Mario and ZSS.
8BitMan also used him as a secondary/co-main back in SSB4 as well, so he is currently dipping his toes back into him once again.

But yeah, I feel like Diddy's range is still rather low relative to the cast, and his KO power is kind of inconsistent for how light he is.

I'd like to dip my toes into this discussion of why these characters that were buffed in patches still aren't seeing the usage/results that they may have been hyped up to get after they got buffed. This is a pretty common topic since a lot of relatively rare characters have gotten buffed recently (think :ultmewtwo:,:ultcorrinf:,:ultdiddy:, or :ultpit::ultdarkpit:) but still don't receive much usage in tournament play.

A.) Why pick up a new character when your current main still works? Now this is mostly referring to upper-level tournament play as most casual and lower-level players can pick up a new character and do fine because of their lower skill cap. But when it comes to bigger tourneys, a lot of top players usually solo main or carry a secondary around for certain hard matchups. A good example of this is MkLeo who's been solo maining Joker recently and only plans to use his new secondary, Chrom, for matchups that he finds annoying for Joker. This is a fair and common mindset, but when it comes to these rarer and more unknown characters, they often don't get picked up by these upper level players even after they got buffed. For example, Cosmos is still going to go solo Inkling despite Corrin receiving good buffs to her recovery and some other moves. An exception to this is WaDi, who picked up :ultwiifittrainerm: as a secondary shortly after their big 3.0.0 buffs and has used them a few times in bigger tourneys. (He used them in his set against Lui$ at Smash Con for example.) However, one could say that putting time into Wii Fit isn't worth it when his R.O.B. is still beating plenty of top-level players and can do well even in harder MUs. This is likely one of the reasons why WaDi rarely goes WFT because R.O.B. still does fine for him and he doesn't want to lose too much grind time in R.O.B. by practicing Wii Fit.

B.) The vicious cycle of a character's results being low being tied to them being seen as bad. Now this is a tricky point to discuss as many people could say "Oh this character doesn't get results because they're Bottom 5 anyway" and it can apply to some characters like Kirby and King K. Rool, but for characters like Mewtwo and Corrin who are generally seen as mid-tier, they can be seen as having hidden potential that hasn't been reached yet because well, nobody plays them. Of course there's always the character specialists that spout stuff about their character's potential and are on occasion right (:ultpiranha: mains rejoicing after Brood showcased their character's potential in ledge-trapping), but we may never know just how good someone like Mewtwo can be without someone playing them at a higher level and showing all of the stuff that Mewtwo can do. Mewtwo's actually a great example of this because back in Smash 4, nobody wanted to put time into him until Abadango showed his tricks at Pound, and his playerbase only increased after Mewtwo got buffed to a low top tier character. If someone were to get great results with Mewtwo in this game after his buffs, perhaps more players would be interested in trying him out and bringing him at more top-ranked tourneys, thus proving Mewtwo's potential and improving his results to show that potential. However, the sad truth is that right now, a character like Mewtwo just doesn't have the results or the playerbase getting results, and thus will be looked down upon by other players except for those few that play Mewtwo mains and are like "GUYS MEWTWO IS TOP 25" on Twitter. (They exist and you know it, except maybe not for Mewtwo because nobody actually plays that character)

C.) The above point about Abadango's run with pre-patch Mewtwo in Smash 4 kind of ties into this next unfortunate point. Even though Abadango's run theoretically proves that a rare character that's perceived as low-tier can get good results (Brood's run too), the unfortunate reality is that for some characters they usually won't get the chance to make these results because their best players just aren't at the top level as players like Abadango, Brood, or Dabuz with Ultimate Rosalina. Like for Corrin, her playerbase is already tiny enough that it's hard to find good players for her, especially without Cosmos at the helm of her meta. Her best mains are players like LetsTickle and Shadic, who have achieved decent results at the tourneys they've gone to but no breakouts really. LetsTickle mainly uses Inkling too, which doesn't exactly help Corrin's argument here. What I'm trying to say is that even a best main for a rare lower-tiered character may be very good, they still may not be on the top-top level and thus won't achieve the best results. Another example I could say is my main Lucas. While I do believe that players like 8Mitsuki, Hakadama, and Mekos could achieve great results if they went to bigger tourneys more often (it hurts even more that two of the players I mentioned are Japanese and don't travel much at all), you can't really say they are PGR level because they haven't done anything too notable outside of 8Mitsuki winning some bigger tournaments in his region. This point can also be expanded to players who are clearly great, but don't have the opportunity to travel to prove their character's might. I'll use the Pits for this, as Trela has been a lot of time into them recently and we all know how good Trela is, so you'd think he can show up to a major and showcase those nice Pit buffs. Well, sadly, Trela hasn't attended anything outside of his region since his disappointing performance at Prime Saga, so Pit's results are still as good as dead at the moment. However, it's not impossible of course, because these players are always improving and may break out in the same fashion as Joker the :ultsamus: main who nobody knew anything about until he took Cosmos to Game 5 and got 9th at Low Tier City. This result improved some people's opinions on Samus after Joker showcased the amazing movement options and mixups that Samus has. You could even apply this to :ultdiddy:, as Dakpo got 13th at the same tournament (which was after Diddy's buffs!).


Overall, I just wanted to make this post just to give some of my ideas on this topic of these buffed characters and why they still haven't seen much exposure in tournaments after their buffs. Like I said, it's definitely not impossible to get notable results even if your character doesn't have a player that's on a Dabuz or Brood level. But it'll definitely be hard when the playerbase is small and nobody's willing to get into those characters. A harsh reality truly, although honestly I'd rather not see someone like Isabelle being played everywhere. :awesome:
An issue I did convey earlier is that we will run into a situation where there will be no top players left to represent a character given how large the roster is.

:ultmewtwo: He runs into three different obstacles. The first one is that Secret, despite all the success he gathered with pre-patch Mewtwo, now mostly focuses on PkMn Trainer and Joker. The second one is Mewtwo's absurdly high learning curve. While a lot of characters has this (all over the tier list), this issue is further boosted by the third obstacle. The third one is that most of Mewtwo's players back in SSB4 mained someone else back in Brawl or in SSB4 before 1.1.5. WaDi mained R.O.B., Rich Brown mained Olimar, Deathorse mained Wario, the list goes on. Why leave your main that is finally high-top tier in favor of a high learning curve character that is probably upper-mid tier at best? The Abadango Pound run could very well happen and new players will be introduced to the character (there are more players that picked him up at 4.0.0), but who would attempt to do that?
:ultcorrinf: In Corrin's case, the character is pretty much abandoned. Cosmos no longer plays her, Zackray no longer plays her, almost no that played her in SSB4 plays her in this game. The very few who does doesn't really do well. I am a little biased because I personally think Corrin is a mediocre character in this game (and most other former Corrin players agree with me), but whether someone can show up and get success with the character remains to be seen.
:ultpit::ultdarkpit: Pit is probably the biggest sufferer of losing his best player in this game. Earth cannot play the game competitively for an year (alongside Ranai, YB, and aMSa), who is the biggest proprietor of Pit back in both Brawl and SSB4. Now Pit has accumulated a decent amount of representation lately, but unfortunately no top player presentation. Hearing that Trela is trying his hand on Pit does make me hopeful though.
:ultlucas: Lucas no longer has Taiheita. He would be another similar case with Pit, but all the other notable players who mained him in SSB4 still plays with him in this game. However, his playerbase is not doing well with him, even the players from Japan, making virtually no impact in high level play, while doing okay-ish results in low to mid level play, which is definitely a far cry from what they did in SSB4.


FYI: Abadango's performances with Mewtwo came after 1.1.5.
 

Frihetsanka

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 26, 2016
Messages
1,935
Location
Sweden
https://old.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/ctk3iz/congratulations_to_the_winner_of_toryumon_32/

Some notable results: KEN won with solo Sonic, Tsu got second with solo Hero, beating players like HIKARU, Raito, and T, with Hero! And Hero is arguably one of the trickier characters to learn, and many people are already doing fairly well with Hero. Seems like the character is not as bad as people seem to think. I still think he's high or top tier when mastered, though at this point it's unlikely anyone has mastered him, and due to the social stigma of playing such an RNG-based character (and the risk of him getting banned) it's quite possible no top 20 player will ever try to master Hero.
 

The_Bookworm

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https://old.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/ctk3iz/congratulations_to_the_winner_of_toryumon_32/

Some notable results: KEN won with solo Sonic, Tsu got second with solo Hero, beating players like HIKARU, Raito, and T, with Hero! And Hero is arguably one of the trickier characters to learn, and many people are already doing fairly well with Hero. Seems like the character is not as bad as people seem to think. I still think he's high or top tier when mastered, though at this point it's unlikely anyone has mastered him, and due to the social stigma of playing such an RNG-based character (and the risk of him getting banned) it's quite possible no top 20 player will ever try to master Hero.
Raito and HIKARU used :ultpokemontrainer: and :ultbayonetta:, respectively, against Tsu.

I guess they want to fight Tsu, secondary vs secondary, for whatever reason.
 

Envoy of Chaos

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A point that co-exists besides Cheryl~ Cheryl~ 's point A is that a lot people already put in work with the character they are already playing.
Like, Ven was and will always be a Zelda main. There is no reason to change her for Pit who, despite the nerfs, became a much better character and let's say also better than Zelda (which imo isn't the case, but let's just go with it).
Now, why should he let the work he put into improving his Zelda go to waste in a game where all characters are all fairly close? It doesn't really make much sense to pick up Pit then because he didn't start with Pit from the beginning. So, if a character isn't picked up immediately from the beginning there's little chance this character will appear later on when the meta has progressed. DLC chars don't really count because unlike Pit, they weren't there from the start and people are eager to find out what Joker/Hero/Banjo or Bayo/Cloud can do.

Maybe that's what should be expressed with point A and my not-so-deep understanding of the English language didn't grasp that.
Thank y’all for your Yoshi insights he’s one of the few characters I legitimately know little about so that helped. I don’t know I still feel like his problems aren’t as exasperated but I guess results do speak in this case.

Regarding your point, people are going to use a character if that character is suddenly made good through patches, doesn’t matter how long the game has been out for. If characters like M2 and Corrin who have received buffs aren’t being used still it’s because one of three things.

1. The buffs haven’t done enough to address the issues with the character to the point it makes them much better than before if at all (Corrin probably falls in this category)
2. Players haven’t understood the changes fully yet and the characters are still being understood for what they are pre and post changes (Falcon probably falls into this category)
3. The characters player base hasn’t gotten to the level of other characters player bases and some buffs aren’t going to dramatically make them better players overnight (This kinda bleeds into the other two reasons but M2 is probably in this category currently given his best players don’t use him anymore)
 

blackghost

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yeah hikaru's bayo was not very impressive...
game 1 he did a total of 150 percent total damage and took 0 stocks and lost 2-0. (the opponent used kamikaze)
game 2 he lost 2-0 and only had one or two combo strings.
looks like a secondary bayo he used for fun.
 

$.A.F.

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https://old.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/ctk3iz/congratulations_to_the_winner_of_toryumon_32/

Some notable results: KEN won with solo Sonic, Tsu got second with solo Hero, beating players like HIKARU, Raito, and T, with Hero! And Hero is arguably one of the trickier characters to learn, and many people are already doing fairly well with Hero. Seems like the character is not as bad as people seem to think. I still think he's high or top tier when mastered, though at this point it's unlikely anyone has mastered him, and due to the social stigma of playing such an RNG-based character (and the risk of him getting banned) it's quite possible no top 20 player will ever try to master Hero.
Okay first of all it’s a weekly. A weekly really isn’t necessarily that serious especially compared to a larger tournament. Komota and Bocchi come to mind. Still I’d be wrong to write it off just due to that, only be skeptical. However an important detail that wasn’t mentioned is that neither used their main. Raito used Pokemon trainer and HIKARU used Bayonetta of all characters.
 

Lacrimosa

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And here we are (this was mentioned by another user in a different conversation): Sandbagging at locals can really be a "problem" in order to evaluate characters.
 
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|RK|

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Interesting topic on Twitter lead me to wonder...

Wtf happened to Inkling, again? Barely even got nerfed from the time she was considered #1

Now, I barely see her at most levels of play, and many top players have straight up dropped her
 

boysilver400

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It could be because people realized that there were better characters that are also easier to use like Wolf and Lucina. Cosmos has also been underperforming lately, so that might be a part of it as well.
 

Rizen

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I seem to remember Cosmos was unable to make it to a few tournaments. Inkling was never the best but definitely good. Her results will pick up when Cosmos returns.
And here we are (this was mentioned by another user in a different conversation): Sandbagging at locals can really be a "problem" in order to evaluate characters.
Playing new characters and sandbagging are 2 different things but I agree it would have been more impressive if he beat Raito's DH.
 

Ziodyne 21

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I seem to remember Cosmos was unable to make it to a few tournaments. Inkling was never the best but definitely good. Her results will pick up when Cosmos returns.

Playing new characters and sandbagging are 2 different things but I agree it would have been more impressive if he beat Raito's DH.

Inkling is almost kinda like the Smash 4 (post-patch) Sheik of Ultimate top-tiers. Undoubedtly very strong, but can stuggle to take stocks at least compared to many other chararcters conisdered top-tier. They are pretty technical and you gotta be brining your A game in every match.
Apparently they also have a somewhat Wonky MU chart. Inlking does decent vs most top tiere but from what I heard can have surprsing issues with random high-mid tier characters.
:ultyoshi::ultbowser::ultrob:.


But it only makes sense how most characters results can drop when thier best player is not around. I.E :ultsnake:
 
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KirbySquad101

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That's how I'm feeling about :ultinkling: atm myself; I still think the Mexico scene is ripe with strong Inkling players, but the problem is is that outside of Sparg0, Maister, Javi, and MKLeo, players in Mexico don't really travel around a lot to participate in big tournaments in general.
 
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blackghost

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Inkling is almost kinda like the Smash 4 (post-patch) Sheik of Ultimate top-tiers. Undoubedtly very strong, but can stuggle to take stocks at least compared to many other chararcters conisdered top-tier. They are pretty technical and you gotta be brining your A game in every match.
Apparently they also have a somewhat Wonky MU chart. Inlking does decent vs most top tiere but from what I heard can have surprsing issues with random high-mid tier characters.
:ultyoshi::ultbowser::ultrob:.


But it only makes sense how most characters results can drop when thier best player is not around. I.E :ultsnake:
but smash 4 shiek was at least appearing in top 8s. inkling doesn't exist presently. at least not for a character supposedly of that caliber.

like i've said before the name if the game is taking stocks you are not an elite character if you have a killing problem. in ultimate you have to finish your plate. this hinders some characters more than others depending on whether there are other things wrong with your kit or moveset but being unable to kill is a problem thta is hard to overcome that most people dont want to deal with.
 

NotLiquid

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Interesting topic on Twitter lead me to wonder...

Wtf happened to Inkling, again? Barely even got nerfed from the time she was considered #1

Now, I barely see her at most levels of play, and many top players have straight up dropped her
The only top players that dropped her from my recollection were Wishes and dyr. Abadango was never married to the character and still uses her regularly as a counterpick character. He used her recently at Umebura.

As for what happened? Character was overhyped early + people expected nerfs + internalized backlash + existing mains already doing the trick for most people. The character is easy to control but takes a lot of commitment to learn because their only consistent mid-to-high percent clutch plays are heavily reliant on things like jab locks, edgeguards and frametraps. I've been arguing since day one in this thread that she was never the best character in the game. That being said, I don't think Inkling has moved anywhere from being a top 10 contender in the grand scheme of things because she has some deceptively stupid stuff that goes largely underappreciated (BAir, splattershot, splat bomb), has a really well rounded MU spread for top level play, and overall is really strong at playing both offense and defense, despite most players always opting for the former.

Her only two major flaws is her inability to commit to good reads or clutch safety moves for stocks which can cause notable momentum problems (hot take 1: Inkling having "killing problems" is only 50% true and 50% overblown myth), and her occasional difficulty landing (hot take 2: an Inkling with a NAir hitbox that covers her body would be a free top 5 character).

There's also a lot of statistical noise happening right now with Cosmos being on hiatus, as he's not attending Shine. Inkling has a regional problem working against her where most of her best players are located in Mexico and Europe (Canada as well considering LetsTickle) - all regions that are comparatively less monitored than US an Japan - and those players aren't necessarily regional one-hit wonders given that Chag managed to place 33rd at EVO. Notably, Armada is going to be traveling again to attend tournaments, so assuming all that grinding has paid off, we may be seeing another top player step up to the plate.
 
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Emblem Lord

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If I may for a minute, I honestly don’t how :ultyoshi: does not see more success. Pardon my ignorance on the character but when I see his full package I don’t see how it doesn’t come together enough to make him a super good character. He has everything a character wants in this game.

Good OOS? Frame three sex kick nair that he can make safe by drifting away due to his ridiculous air speed.

A means to land? Dair shreds shields, let’s him cross them up easily, bair and nair work as they are safe, not slow, and again the air speed let’s him drift enough to be out of range of a lot of OOS options. Nair also crossups up well being a sex kick and only -4 on block. He also has B reverse command grabs that let him even further weave around hitboxes.

Good normals? Ftilt leads into his up tilt which reminds me of Fox’s Smash 4 up tilt. He lands one and he gets a 60% combo off the move which has an incredibly generous hitbox that comes in front of him some. Both moves are quick and while Ftilt doesn’t have the most range it’s enough to do what it’s designed to do. Jab is a good 2 hit frame three lets him get opponent out of his face. Dash attack is Snake’s expect without the intangiblity because the move pushes him so far forward he can cross shield up and be safe easily. His only “weaker” grounded moves his smash attacks while not safe kill when they need to. Fsmash allows for some ridiculous hurtbox shifting with how he tucks back and up smash has a lot of vertical range, like a Ridley up smash just not as large.

I’ve already touched on his bair and nair but I’d be remiss to not mention up air or fair. Up air allows him to get ridiculous damage outputs his Ftilt/up tilt and it kills well. Fair is slow but a strong spike that will kill off the side just as well as it spikes so bad spacing isn’t an issues also more big time hurtbox shifting.

Projectile? Eggs do everything he could need. Incredibly versatile in the way he can throw them to prevent grounded or air approaches, he can combo off them and lead into kills and they give him a lot of protection when he’s coming back to stage. Which brings me to recovery.

The point I thought he wasn’t supposed to be good at he’s honestly fine in. His air speed and floaty nature let him drift back from just about anywhere ( this also makes him a really good edge guarder). Until you can break his DJ armor he doesn’t have to worry about getting hit out of his jump and his mentioned eggs provide plenty of protection to the point he doesn’t need to rely on DJ armor. (Not even getting into his DJ covering a good deal of diagonal space).

This grants him great survivablity which is further complement by the fact he is quite heavy and can get out of a lot of strings and situations that other characters can’t due to DJ armor. So he has that going for him as well.

I know he’s supposed to not be so great against disjoints but he has the speed both grounded and airborne, good enough range and a projectile to all help him play around them.

So I ask what is actually holding this character back? I used to think he was just alright but I don’t know anymore.
What top tiers does he beat?

Because that's the bottom line.
 

L9999

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This a game with 70 characters, there is only so much talent in the world to showcase character potential. The characters with dead metas are the way they are because whatever attribute that you would motivate you to play them other character has it. The playerbase would have to get extremely bored of the meta in order to attempt to pick up the characters with dead metas.

On the subject of :ultinkling:, we said the same about :ultfox:, how he spiraled down and was dead, then Light came back and reminded us why Fox is good. :ultlucina::ultsnake: underperforming apparently means their meta is dead, even thought they are clearly superior to the rest of the cast. Inkling has great mobility, great frame data, great recovery, ink factor that can swing games in her favor, and she has a lot of great edgeguarding tools to cheese stocks. The character is not dead, and she still pretty good. You want a bag of potatoes with a dead meta? Have:ultsheik:, what has she done in the last 3 months? Are her meta MUs good?
 
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Lacrimosa

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Are characters that are "dead" really superior to other characters?
Only because we've seen Ally doing work with Snake doesn'T automatically mean he's actually superior when other people, most notably MVD, don't have the results to back the character up.
Also I wouldn't say that Inkling is dead or better said: She's as dead as Cosmos. And we know that Cosmos had health issues during SSC, so one has to take this tournament out of the euation when talking about Inkling's performance. There have been numerous Inklings in the Top 32 of Smash Factor 8.

Anyway, I don't really buy it that Snake and Lucina are superior to the rest of the cast, much less clearly superior. Same goes for Inkling.
I guess one could say that this goes for Snake the most as Ally and MVD are pretty close together skill-wise, however the other characters have one main player and then no one on the same skill level. There's a reason why we have so much character diversity in the Top 50 PGR: No one is clearly superior.
 

Rizen

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Someone did a bunch of testing on Hero and there's some relevant competitive information (like accelerate lowers Hero's weight).

I've played several Heroes and he has a higher potential for different playstyles than most characters. It makes sense with all Hero's different moves. One person used Utilt as an anti-air and it's a really good option. Some people fish for certain menu buffs, others try to minimalism RNG while focusing on side and neutral B and others use menu a lot and hope for the best.

Hero's a complex character who will take much practice both playing as and against to master. However, complex isn't always a good thing. He's very luck and adaptation reliant and you can consistantly pressure better with a top tier like Wolf.
 

Lacrimosa

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Looks like even more players are revealed on the PGR.
I assume that this up to Top 100 players, however the players listed there are in no particular order and they were evaluated based on an X-Factor survey it seems.

I'm not going to list another 50 players with their characters (it's all in the source at the bottom).
https://www.ssbwiki.com/Spring_2019_PGRU

And again I'm surprised that Ven didn't make it. With one Top 27 and two 33rd placements one would assume he's in there but nope.
Anyway, here it is.
 
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Frihetsanka

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could be because people realized that there were better characters that are also easier to use like Wolf and Lucina
I think Inkling is significantly better than both Wolf and Lucina. As far as I know, Inkling's worst matchup is Duck Hunt, while Lucina's are Shulk and Greninja, and Wolf's are Inkling, Pikachu, and Shulk. Duck Hunt is a good character but Shulk, Greninja, Pikachu, and Inkling are better. Inkling might beat Palutena and Snake as well, which is pretty notable.

Inkling was never the best but definitely good.
One character has to be the best, and Inkling is currently a strong contender for #1.

Cosmos no longer plays her, Zackray no longer plays her, almost no that played her in SSB4 plays her in this game.
Frozen, Ryuga, and Dexter dropped her as well (and Wishes, aka Vivid, dropped her before Smash 4 ended), and we probably won't see much from Promaelia in the near future. The character is fairly mediocre still and there's not much reason to play her when other sword characters are much, much better.
 

VodkaHaze

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I think Inkling is significantly better than both Wolf and Lucina. As far as I know, Inkling's worst matchup is Duck Hunt, while Lucina's are Shulk and Greninja, and Wolf's are Inkling, Pikachu, and Shulk. Duck Hunt is a good character but Shulk, Greninja, Pikachu, and Inkling are better. Inkling might beat Palutena and Snake as well, which is pretty notable.

One character has to be the best, and Inkling is currently a strong contender for #1.

Frozen, Ryuga, and Dexter dropped her as well (and Wishes, aka Vivid, dropped her before Smash 4 ended), and we probably won't see much from Promaelia in the near future. The character is fairly mediocre still and there's not much reason to play her when other sword characters are much, much better.
I also don't know if Corrin is widely popular among FE fans, which might contribute to it. Many people will main Samus because they like Metroid. Hell, people think King K. Rool and Bowser Jr. are worse than Corrin, but they get more representation than him/her.
 

KirbySquad101

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:ultcorrinf: does seem to suffer from a case of being much less popular than the rest of the FE cast (I know FE people hate Roy, he's got a ton of Smash fans to back that up); this isn't a really an excuse to defend her, but it does seem like more people were interested in picking her in SSB4 because she was one of the sword fighters that was an actual threat in that game.

There is a few seeds of hope for Corrin in the form of Ryo, who is currently using her over :ultike: after expressing dissatisfaction with Ike's playstyle between SSB4 and Ultimate. He hasn't been very active, but he is going to be participating in a decently-sized tournament (256 people) called the Gainesville Stock Exchange 100, so we could possibly see some Corrin in action there.
 
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Megamang

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Those characters have strong tools which are fun to use against people. Corrin has a few, but they're underwhelming. Krool had a big launch day/month but has fallen similarly.
 

Kairyu24

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To be specific among FE fans, if I may, Roy is just slighty infamous for being weak in FE gameplay, but has a decent reputation otherwise, especially in recent years. In contrast, Corrin is near universally panned for his/her personality and actions in the FE fandom(although fans do exist). His existence is smash is one of the more interesting results of ''everyone is here'', approach, since the inclusion as a marketing push doesn't have quite the legacy as the melee/brawl characters who got returned. With the new FE game going so mainstream recently, I don't see him returning in a future game with a slighty more conservative cast.

I do have a selfish hope he gets a few buffs to stand himself out more in this game though. Even a more casual player like myself could see his awkwardness compared to other swordies, and at best he makes me miss his SSB4 self, which I did enjoy.
 
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