Community Patch Project: Ganondorf

[~ Gheb ~]

What's good, Ganondorf players? Some of you have already seen that there's a community project for a patch is going on right now. A lot of suggestions for things that could or should be patched are coming in and a fair share of these suggestions are related to Ganondorf. Despite all the buffs he has received through the transition from Brawl to Smash 4 and the additional buffs he gained with the last patch, it's still undisputed that Ganondorf has a number of fundamental flaws in his character design that make it easy to counter Ganondorf to the point where there's virtually no reason to play Ganondorf in a competitive environment.

Please note that this is not an attempt to make Ganondorf high- or even top tier but to just fix the most pressing issues. There's no point in deluding ourselves that we will have an absolutely perfectly balanced product in the end but if there are obvious issues that don't need to be in the game then there's no point in not trying to do something about it, now that patches are actually a thing.
The following noteworthy suggestions have already been made:

*Decrease the start-up lag of the initial dash
*Increase the grab range
*Increase the duration of jab's active frames
*Adjust dsmash's knockback to give it some sort of consistency and reliability


For those of you who haven't seen it yet, here's the original thread:

http://smashboards.com/threads/community-patch-project.380574/

Please read that thread carefully before you post in here.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Alright, I'll just copypasta my beautiful Ganondorf throw summary for all you handsome gentlemen to see. I'm sure y'all will agree.

"To add some perspective to Ganon's grab, his range is still Melee tier but I think it should be a bit longer in this game ONLY BECAUSE I feel like they reused the range data but didn't quite think of why it had such bad range in melee.

Ganon's D-Throw in Melee was incredible. It CG'd, it basically guaranteed a followup regardless of DI IIRC, it was just a ****ing godlike D-Throw. How do you offset that? Make it hard to land.

Looking at Ganondorf's grab game in Smash 4, while I utilize it a lot thanks to the improvement of shields and grabbing out of shield, D-Throw is far from what it was in Melee (and this is perfectly okay! I think it's silly to have a D-Throw you can't even DI out of or avoid some form of punishment from), but the grab range remains absolutely pitiful. Just extend it by a little bit, his throw kit is substantially worse than Melee so I see no reason to keep Melee's D-Throw on him, especially on Ganon whose metagame is a lot about smart shielding and punishes. I doubt it would break him, yeah.

I'm with SamuraiPanda entirely. Having played Ganon a lot I feel like his throw range is a lazy port from Melee and should be updated to be a bit better to compensate for an overall nerfed throw game."

 

[Vermanubis]

Here's my post from there:

Honestly, a character like Ganon's delicate to balance, because if you give him too much, he'll become a monster.

My general wishlist for Ganon, is, more than anything, an improved grab range. When I think back to all of my most difficult matches, inadequate move speed has never been a problem, rather, the fact that attacking Ganon's shield is perfectly safe for most characters since he's apparently a Kung Fu man and likes keep his elbows close to his body when grabbing.

Beyond that, I'd say reduce the ending lag on choke by at least a 2 frames to make it possible to follow up on certain characters. The reason being because if you play against a very talented, defensive, shield-holding opponent upon whom you can't follow-up after choke, such as Zelda, at high percents, you're relegated to throws and some other obscure, heady method of killing. That being said, if such a character techs, they should still be safe, but I think Ganon's DTilt follow-ups should be universal. If someone techs, they deserve to escape, but if they fail to, then the toll is to be paid, as it were. This way, it's not an arbitrary reward to Ganon, but the removal of an arbitrary reward for failure on their part.

I'm open to any and all buffs, since I won't complain about having a more and more viable character. But in the spirit of fairness, giving Ganon his DAir back would be, as much as I hate it, a bit much (though if Nintendo sees it fit, see you all in the shadow realm). A reflector'd be neat, too, but that's not something I feel Ganon needs to be viable. What hurts him more than anything is the fact that certain VERY GOOD characters are completely immune to one of his most vital tools. This and his grab range are the only things about Ganon I find legitimately stupid and unbalanced.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Honestly, a character like Ganon's delicate to balance, because if you give him too much, he'll become a monster.

And exactly for that reason I think that buffing his grab range could be a poor decision. Ganondorf's throw game is pretty scary this time around so I believe the risk / reward ratio of Ganondorf's grab is actually just fine.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Bold statement: Brawl Ganondorf would have gone straight from bottom tier to legitimately upper mid tier with average grab range. Grab range may be the obvious solution to making Ganondorf more viable, but it also has the biggest chance of being a huge balance offender. In Brawl, he would still be held back by a below average recovery and vulnerability to abusive combos and DeDeDe's chaingrabs, and then Metaknight and the Ice Climbers making a joke out of the game, but the sheer extra safety he would have from a good grab and the increased viability of circumventing stale moves would very significantly improve all of his matchups. Imagine Ganondorf going about even with Snake. That's what a decent grab would likely do for him.

I believe for the most part, we have about two or so very blatantly unfair matchups even with customs. Sheik being the most obvious of them. And I believe the simplest way to address this matchup without affecting Ganon's other matchups noticeably is with a buffed Jab to discourage her from rushing Ganon down in midrange. Either speeding it up or increasing its hitbox duration I believe would likely make this matchup a LOT more tolerable.

 

[SaltyKracka]

And exactly for that reason I think that buffing his grab range could be a poor decision. Ganondorf's throw game is pretty scary this time around so I believe the risk / reward ratio of Ganondorf's grab is actually just fine.

...Uh, what exactly is scary about Ganondorf's throw game? His pummel is awful, none of his throws actually kills in any realistic scenario, and his ability to combo from them is far more exception than rule. He doesn't even get truly excellent damage from them, let alone anything that would justify him having one of the worst grabs in the game.

 

[Shogger]

...Uh, what exactly is scary about Ganondorf's throw game? His pummel is awful, none of his throws actually kills in any realistic scenario, and his ability to combo from them is far more exception than rule. He doesn't even get truly excellent damage from them, let alone anything that would justify him having one of the worst grabs in the game.

I think he means that in combination with Flame Choke, Ganondorf pressures shields extremely hard. You are right though, his throws are more about giving him positional advantage than about racking damage or starting strings.

 

[Vermanubis]

And exactly for that reason I think that buffing his grab range could be a poor decision. Ganondorf's throw game is pretty scary this time around so I believe the risk / reward ratio of Ganondorf's grab is actually just fine.

It's not so much about mitigating his risk ratios as it is about making it so he's not at a profound disadvantage in every defensive scenario. The idea isn't that Ganon becomes the grab king, rather, to have his grab as an option to discourage freely attacking his shield. I'm also open to A2Z's idea about a better jab to solve the same problem, but I can't foresee any dramatic changes coming about, were Ganon to be capable of OoS grabs. In the grand scheme of things, an increased standing grab range would mean nothing apart from hapahazard shield attacks getting punished.

Though, now that I think of it, I'd much rather have a faster-ending choke than increased grab range.

 

[MagiusNecros]

I think one of the main issues with the grab range is that with any other character you can dash grab with decent range while with Ganon you have basically no range at all. And by time you figure out you did grab your opponent unless you threw them right away they would break out of it. We are talking about a guy that has no projectiles, is slow, and can be bodied to death with a single mistake. Ganondorf has huge arms and his grab range is abysmal? I don't think so.

I guess your counter argument with not having an extended grab range is that Flame Choke is basically a extended command grab but that just begs the question of why implement having a grab to begin with under that reasoning.

I dunno about you but with characters I like to play and Ganondorf being one of them I like to have more then one option. Especially for grabbing opponents.

 

[_Magus_]

Typically with other characters decent dash speed can compensate for bad grab range...

.....but we play GanonTank.

I think his grab range could definitely stand a buff. I'm tired of whiffing shieldgrabs cuz they're not breathing down my neck :/

 

[Hydde]

GRAB

is his major flaw. No that he doesnt have others...but his grab range is an insult for someone that big

 

[A2ZOMG]

...Uh, what exactly is scary about Ganondorf's throw game? His pummel is awful, none of his throws actually kills in any realistic scenario, and his ability to combo from them is far more exception than rule. He doesn't even get truly excellent damage from them, let alone anything that would justify him having one of the worst grabs in the game.

Ganon's pummel is average this game. Does 3% a hit in this game rather than 2% in Brawl.

Also, Ganon does have legitimate low percent combos from D-throw that do very good damage. And F-throw is 13 damage, which in a number of cases is actually about as much damage as other characters do with D-throw -> aerial in this game. Also, Ganondorf has the potential to set up KOs from D-throw. Sure, he doesn't always have Diddy's braindead D-throw nonsense, but Ganondorf still gets very strong positional advantage from D-throw, which lets him get 50/50s, which for Ganon, are amazing when you consider how early he can kill.

The other thing that just has to be reinforced is the fact Ganondorf is a character that has a crapton of moves that are able to KO when he's able to land them. When Ganondorf does throw damage, that's damage that isn't staling one of his many, many KO options. Considering how reliant Ganondorf is on playing solid footsies to win, every successful throw you get is actually hugely gamechanging, even if in a rather roundabout way,

Honestly...if Nintendo does choose to buff Ganon's grab, it's not like I won't be understanding or happy for that matter. Just the game design obsessive part of myself believes while it's obviously the most direct way of fixing Ganon's problems, it also has the potential to take away what fundamentally makes him most appealing, both for Ganon players and his opponents: overcoming limitations with reads.

Ganondorf in my view is one of the best designed characters in Smash 4 currently. He has a clear gameplan with obvious strengths and weaknesses. He's a character with a lot of counterplay, but simultaneously a lot of potential to outplay his opponent. As much as it would be more than thematically appropriate for this type of character to be a literal standard competitively, I also feel like if he were made too good, it would make him less fun for everyone.

And this isn't something I'm trying to say with the intention of denying that Ganondorf deserves help addressing some of his bigger headaches. I believe fundamentally, we want everything that will make Ganondorf a more satisfying character.

 

[Rad]

I think if n-air was a sex kick with a bit of purple disjointy stuff it would compensate for his approach a lot. Having an aerial that can be spaced on shield and sent out in front of you without absurd lag or an awkward hitbox just adds so many options. In combination with aerudo it gives him something to work with from a SH. Especially if his initial dash gets stronger.

The way to balance ganon is to buff his footsies imo. Keep him just as bad on defense and scary on a punish but give him more ability to shine in neutral.

 

[MarquisElmdore]

Been lurking for quite a while but decided to make an account to join in on this discussion since smash 4 is the first game in the series I have the chance to play competitively.

I've been seeing a lot of discussion about Ganondorf's grab game, but I wanted to talk about his aerials and specifically what I find to be an incredibly unsafe landing compared to most of the roster. The ending lag on most attacks or even just hitting the ground on your feet feels like it leaves him far too open to just get knocked up again, and given the floatier nature of falling I feel like there's far too much air time for the opponent to space and wait for Ganon to fall back to stage, especially with his terrible horizontal movement. In the last patch his landing lag was reduced a bit, but it still feels like a bit much to me, I may be expecting too much though.

I feel like this would help his approach against projectiles significantly as well, too often I feel like trying to weave through multiples of them requires long periods of careful defense with too many opportunities for them to stop you, with a skewed risk/reward that can make certain matchups downright frustrating and just not fun to play(Link, Megaman, and Robin all drive me crazy most of the time.)

I also feel like Wizard's Foot could benefit from some increased priority, a move like that doesn't seem like it should be clanking with every dinky projectile it comes across(Megaman's pellets for christ's sake), especially since it doesn't seem that customs and the potential of Wizard's Dropkick are going to be a widespread thing for the time being at least.

If I'm overlooking some incredibly glaring approach options that invalidate some of these points then by all means tell me, I wouldn't mind the learning experience.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

It seems like a lot of people are in favor of improving Ganon's grab range because it gives him a decent option out of shield. I still think that just straight-up buffing Ganondorf's grab is a bit dangerous and am inclined to agree with A2 that Ganon is actually a nicely designed character beyond that. Furthermore, I think there's a high chance that giving Ganondorf such bad grab range was a deliberate decision by the developers since it used to be just as poor in previous smash games. For all these reasons I'd rather look for other ways to deal with Ganon's issues and only touch his grab range if we can find absolutely no other way to his issues.

On the other hand I completely agree that something needs to be done about Ganon's OoS game. It's one thing if a character has underwhelming options out of shield but having no option out of shield AT ALL is simply impossible to make up for in a game where shielding is such an essential move. Since changing grab is out of the discussion [at least for now] and usmash is definitely one of Ganon's better moves I'd like throw in the suggestion that perhaps something could be done about Ganon's upB. It's currently neither a good recovery option nor does it seem to have any noteworthy application as an out of shield move so a buff for that move would make sense and be rather easy to justify.

I believe for the most part, we have about two or so very blatantly unfair matchups even with customs. Sheik being the most obvious of them. And I believe the simplest way to address this matchup without affecting Ganon's other matchups noticeably is with a buffed Jab to discourage her from rushing Ganon down in midrange. Either speeding it up or increasing its hitbox duration I believe would likely make this matchup a LOT more tolerable.

The problem I have with this suggestion is that Ganon's jab is already not that bad a move and that buffing it just to help him in one or two matchup is kind of missing the point of the project. In your specific example I'd rather have that purpose - discouraging midrange rushdown attempts against Ganon - be fulfilled by another move that isn't as useful right now as jab already is. Dsmash would be an example. I don't think the move has too many applications and its inconsistency is pretty annoying.

To tell you the truth though, I find it hard to believe that your suggested change would be enough to make the Sheik matchup that much more tolerable. Not that this project is about balancing speific matchups to begin with, it just makes me sceptical of your suggestion.

 

[_Magus_]

Beyond that, I'd say reduce the ending lag on choke by at least a 2 frames to make it possible to follow up on certain characters. The reason being because if you play against a very talented, defensive, shield-holding opponent upon whom you can't follow-up after choke, such as Zelda, at high percents, you're relegated to throws and some other obscure, heady method of killing. That being said, if such a character techs, they should still be safe, but I think Ganon's DTilt follow-ups should be universal. If someone techs, they deserve to escape, but if they fail to, then the toll is to be paid, as it were. This way, it's not an arbitrary reward to Ganon, but the removal of an arbitrary reward for failure on their part.

This. This so much.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Maybe if they made Nair's startup time shorter Nair OoS could be good. Like, have the first kick come out 1-2 frames faster or something like that. It would at least be a nice anti-air OoS option if the grab range buff would be too excessive (even if I think it wouldn't since Ganon's throw game is solid but not nearly the best in this game especially not for a character of his crippling flaws.)

 

[A2ZOMG]

The problem I have with this suggestion is that Ganon's jab is already not that bad a move and that buffing it just to help him in one or two matchup is kind of missing the point of the project. In your specific example I'd rather have that purpose - discouraging midrange rushdown attempts against Ganon - be fulfilled by another move that isn't as useful right now as jab already is. Dsmash would be an example. I don't think the move has too many applications and its inconsistency is pretty annoying.

To tell you the truth though, I find it hard to believe that your suggested change would be enough to make the Sheik matchup that much more tolerable. Not that this project is about balancing speific matchups to begin with, it just makes me sceptical of your suggestion.

The way I see it, Ganon's Jab is realistically one of his worst moves currently, with the niche of being his fastest ground at 8 frames, and also simultaneously hitting high enough to cover air options. In the majority of situations, Ganondorf wants to poke with either his tilts, N-air, or F-air. Jab as it is DOES do an okay job of stuffing pressure, but you should realize that it's also one of the only Jabs in the game that is laggy enough to be punished by spotdodge (and it only does 8 damage tipped, 6 damage in close range, which is actually pretty low). And as I cited earlier, Ganon's extended limb while Jabbing is a problem in footsies, meaning the move is very whiff punishable, which against someone like Sheik who is hard to space against reactively, is a huge problem.

If you look at Ganondorf in Melee, a game with even more ridiculous rushdown, I don't know how else to explain how huge a reliable Jab was in that game (his Jab was a ridiculous frame 3 and able to start combos). The situations where you can throw it out to maintain your space against pressure are not trivial, and without that move, Ganondorf wouldn't feel nearly as satisfying to play. When I see the raw effectiveness of a more reliable Jab against rushdown, I believe that buffing Ganon's Jab is one of the safer ways of balancing him out against the few characters he has a very difficult time winning against competitively without risking throwing his other matchups out of balance.

D-smash honestly doesn't have many "direct" uses on Ganondorf (the first hit is frame 15). It's mostly just a great raw damage punish, so the primary reason we are fixing this move is more of a quality of life thing, though who knows. I've hypothesized before that fixed Ganon D-smash 2nd hit could be realistically used as a spacing tool if it pushed people away on block properly.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I'd say stick his jab in the middle, 5-6 frame startup. Melee speed with its range would be ridiculous with how Ganon is in this game, so if you really wanna buff jab I'd say that.

I'm still going with make Nair startup a bit faster cause Jump > Nair OoS would be baller.

 

[Z1GMA]

• 6 Frame Jab instead of 8.
• Slightly better range on Grab.
• AC SH Dair on flat terrian.
• And yeah, "Less lag" after a Gerudo.
• Volcano Kick (Utilt) should stop Launch Momentum like in Brawl.

 

[SaltyKracka]

On the other hand I completely agree that something needs to be done about Ganon's OoS game. It's one thing if a character has underwhelming options out of shield but having no option out of shield AT ALL is simply impossible to make up for in a game where shielding is such an essential move. Since changing grab is out of the discussion [at least for now] and usmash is definitely one of Ganon's better moves I'd like throw in the suggestion that perhaps something could be done about Ganon's upB. It's currently neither a good recovery option nor does it seem to have any noteworthy application as an out of shield move so a buff for that move would make sense and be rather easy to justify.

Gonna be honest with you, his current default upB is ****. Like, when customs get to be legal there is going to be absolutely nobody using it, because they can either use Dark Vault and get a move that actually helps recovery, or get Dark Fists and get a move that recovers just as well, but isn't actually **** for damage or killing. The fact that Dark Fists is actually an option for OoS punishes according to some of our posters just means that there's no real reason to ever choose Dive when there's an alternative.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Dark Dive is garbage, best version is Dark Fists by far. Better recovery and more reliable for damage and can be used right after Flame Choke on certain matchups such as Olimar which kills at 50%. Inescapable.

Dark Dive only had use for recovery which is crap and only really better then Little Mac's Recovery. And the occasional ricochet off the underside of a stage. And maybe the uppercut hit if someone fudged their recovery.

 

[jahkzheng]

• 6 Frame Jab instead of 8.
• Slightly better range on Grab.
• AC SH Dair on flat terrian.
• And yeah, "Less lag" after a Gerudo.
• Volcano Kick (Utilt) should stop Launch Momentum like in Brawl.

Maybe it's greedy, but yeah... I like all this.

I can definitely understand the desire to have the grab range but if I was to pick just one thing I'd still pick the AC dairs. I want protection for Ganon's achilles~

 

[HeavyLobster]

I do think Dark Dive needs to be buffed as it's currently useless. Making it come out quickly enough to function as a viable OoS punish would be one way to give it a unique niche over his other options. I think it currently comes out frame 14, and if that were sped up a few frames it might be a viable option, as the grabbox does have decent range, though it's still not very rewarding on hit and extremely punishable when missed, so it coming out quickly wouldn't be broken at all.

 

[Opana]

Increase air speed, I feel this will further boost his offstage game, although my main reasoning being recovery. So many times I feel I could've made it to the ledge if I actually moved a decent distance in the air after being launched, and when I am at barely recoverable ranges my recovery is extremely gimpable.

I feel his Up special has better control this time around, may just be me, but I don't think that's enough. Not even asking for a huge boost, but I just want a boost.

The only other change I'd request, if not his grab range, than a throw or two get buffed. I'd like one to be a respectable kill move at least, make grabbing them worth my while past early percentages.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Gonna be honest with you, his current default upB is ****. Like, when customs get to be legal there is going to be absolutely nobody using it, because they can either use Dark Vault and get a move that actually helps recovery, or get Dark Fists and get a move that recovers just as well, but isn't actually **** for damage or killing. The fact that Dark Fists is actually an option for OoS punishes according to some of our posters just means that there's no real reason to ever choose Dive when there's an alternative.

Yeah, when you bring this up, I believe QoL buffs to differentiate Dark Dive from the other Up-B variants would be good. Not to mention buffs to help out Wizard's Assault which just is really poorly designed generally speaking.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Yeah, when you bring this up, I believe QoL buffs to differentiate Dark Dive from the other Up-B variants would be good. Not to mention buffs to help out Wizard's Assault which just is really poorly designed generally speaking.

Wizard's Assault seems to be geared towards Free for All's since it goes through opponents on the ground. But as it stands WF and WDK are much better to use.

---------------------

One thing I must say though is that Up B needs to be buffed. If it still has crap knockback for the grab at 200% then something is wrong. And I personally think it should work like Dark Fists with a launch hit at the beginning to connect with the grab since connecting with it is super rare. Except no super armor.

Either that or give Ganondorf a new Up B. I like the rest and DF is a good replacement but in modes like FG we are stuck with a crap attack option alongside a crap recovery option.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Maybe if they made Nair's startup time shorter Nair OoS could be good. Like, have the first kick come out 1-2 frames faster or something like that. It would at least be a nice anti-air OoS option if the grab range buff would be too excessive (even if I think it wouldn't since Ganon's throw game is solid but not nearly the best in this game especially not for a character of his crippling flaws.)

Nair seems to be a pretty adequate move for various purposes after the patch though. I'd like to re-stress the fact that I'd prefer to see suggestions on how to make Ganon's bad moves work better if possible ... rather than improving the ones that seem to be good enough anyway. From a character and game design point of view, I think a solid nair and upB who both serve their respective purposes would be better to have than one move serving both purposes [in your suggestion's case that would be nair while upB would still be pretty awful in any regard].

Stuff on jab

You mention that Ganondorf's jab is the only one that can't punish spotdodges. That's actually a pretty fair point but I don't think increasing its duration to punish dodges is the buff that move could possibly need. If there's one defensie move that Ganon does absolutely not struggle to punish is spotdodging.

I'll admit though that by its nature jab does leave a pretty big hole in Ganondorf's character design and that it might be a good idea to buff it.

Gonna be honest with you, his current default upB is ****. Like, when customs get to be legal there is going to be absolutely nobody using it, because they can either use Dark Vault and get a move that actually helps recovery, or get Dark Fists and get a move that recovers just as well, but isn't actually **** for damage or killing. The fact that Dark Fists is actually an option for OoS punishes according to some of our posters just means that there's no real reason to ever choose Dive when there's an alternative.

The problem is that Custom Specials can not be counted on to be a legal option in the majority of tournaments, sadly. Rather than banking on that I'd still say that there will be no way around buffing upB in order to make Ganondorf a ... functioning character by design. And since it'd take care of two major issues for Ganon [complete absence of OoS options and poor recovery options in standard pay] we can actually keep the amount of suggestions low which is something I'm aiming for in the context of this project.

 

[A2ZOMG]

You mention that Ganondorf's jab is the only one that can't punish spotdodges. That's actually a pretty fair point but I don't think increasing its duration to punish dodges is the buff that move could possibly need. If there's one defensie move that Ganon does absolutely not struggle to punish is spotdodging.

I'll admit though that by its nature jab does leave a pretty big hole in Ganondorf's character design and that it might be a good idea to buff it.

That's actually not what I said. I more specifically said that Ganondorf's Jab is basically the only Jab in the game that gets punished by spotdodges. While spotdodge itself is not always a huge problem for Ganon, I used it as a comparison point to demonstrate that Ganon's Jab has some glaring design problems.

All the other multi hit Jab combos usually catch spotdodge on the final hit. Rapid Jabs or Autojabs straight up counter spotdodge directly. Zelda's slower startup Jab has 0 ending lag and consistently leaves her in an advantageous position on defenses. Basically, everyone else in this game has a Jab that can consistently force characters to stop and rethink commitments in close range. Ganon's Jab isn't fast or safe enough for this, even though he can use it as a spacing tool to useful effect, but this means the only commitments it is good for stopping are midrange commitments.

Ganon's Jab is basically more akin to a laggy F-tilt, has decent knockback, quick startup, good range, slightly low damage, but is very unsafe on whiff. It's also his best move for stopping pressure, but the noticeable lack of safety means in a matchup like Sheik who can both camp and pressure very well, it becomes way too risky to attempt using even Jab to try to limit her options when if you just whiff it, she can potentially hit your arm on reaction with a tilt or F-air, outside of the fact that she already gives Ganondorf a very hard time when he's forced to block her moves, which he already has to do a lot of when dealing with needle camping.

As I've said before, I believe Ganondorf by design primarily suffers in matchups where he is simultaneously camped (which forces him to shield a lot), and forced to deal with quick SH aerial pressure (which Ganondorf can't punish very well when he's forced to shield). Jab is the tool Ganondorf has that best covers options against quick SH aerial pressure, but it should probably be made more consistent.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Nair seems to be a pretty adequate move for various purposes after the patch though. I'd like to re-stress the fact that I'd prefer to see suggestions on how to make Ganon's bad moves work better if possible ... rather than improving the ones that seem to be good enough anyway. From a character and game design point of view, I think a solid nair and upB who both serve their respective purposes would be better to have than one move serving both purposes [in your suggestion's case that would be nair while upB would still be pretty awful in any regard].

I like the idea of both being solid yet not the most reliable option in either case, but IDK what they could to do vanilla up+B that wouldn't invalidate the existence of his custom Up+B, Dark Fists, as an OoS option.

Yo, balancing is really hard god ****ing damn. I appreciate the feedback!

 

[Man Li Gi]

For character as big, slow, and lumbering like Ganon who gets bogged down by any character with projectiles or fast moves, I think adding a UNIVERSAL 3% to his moves will make up for the general lackluster options he has and make sure that every hit counts. If Sakurai made him so that he punishes characters to the fullest, this should be obvious. Please make one of the return from Brawl: non techable Flame Choke or AC Dair as dair has little utilization, and he in general has a hard time racking damage, especially against rushdowns.

Ganondorf in total, is a flawed concept and here's why: Since he's a clone of CF, he has the same range as him for majority of his moves (no problems with that really). The problem is that the rate Cf gets doesn't match the reads Ganon has to make to get one hit off. Many hard commitments are needed for Ganon to even match CF or anyone for that matter. OK, I hear "He's supposed to be punisher, not an aggressor" and then I say yeah sure, but why is is his shield embarrassingly small? Why are his OoS options garbage? Why is his grab slow, poorly ranged? Why is he so slow? Why is is his recovery so easily gimped? With those traits, he is a fundamentally flawed design for a character. Comparing to Zangief ( best comparison), Ganon should have long range on all his smashes and tilts (Ftilt s still the same range as jab), and if there is a read made, it should mean death (but the window should be small). I'm tired of making great reads only to be let down by the character's design flaw.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

I definitely feel the armor on his warlock punch could be extended a few frames so that it can't be totally disrespected. It really only has 2 viable uses as far as I can tell:

1. lucky ledge guards (generally less effective than up-tilt for that in my experience)
2. punishing dazed state

If we are trying to improve his worst moves, I think up-b and neutral-b are good places to start. I do agree that he needs an OoS option, and like the OP said, making up-b that solution kills 2 birds with one stone.

 

[Big O]

If I were to tackle changing Ganon in this game, I'd have the following goals in mind.

- Patch up some of the holes in his design
- Raise consistency in his gameplay
- Flesh out and balance his customs so that they are all actually useful for their intended niche

Keeping the above points in mind I'll talk about what I feel should change. I try to be reasonable and objective about this, but I'm only human.

His jab sucks. It is the only jab in the game that completely fails to counter spot dodges. In fact, spot dodges counter his jab instead. It could be argued that he has the tools to beat spot dodging and that his jab behaving this way adds some flavor to the character. However, given the fact that Ganon's OoS game is poor and that his jab didn't always suck, (his Melee jab was incredible) I'd say that having a functional jab is the way to go. His Melee jab also added more flavor to him than Brawl's jab ever did imo. I've mentioned his Melee jab twice already and would love for it to return, but it doesn't need to be THAT good. If his jab were a little faster, lasted a little longer and had less cooldown, I'd be happy. This also lets it differentiate itself more from Dtilt/Ftilt which are better and more focused moves (Dtilt as poke Ftilt as anti-air).

- Frame data like 6-11/25 (attacking frames/total frames) instead of 8-9/34 would make his jab actually do what it's supposed to do, while still keeping the essence of his Brawl jab intact. He already leaves his arm sticking out for a while, so having the hitbox last longer wouldn't seem out of place considering how the move already looks.


His grab is just too bad. As long is his T-Rex grab whiffs against short characters and low to the ground landing animations, his shield is free against characters like Sheik. At the very least, that aspect of his grab should be fixed. Ideally I would also buff his grab range to the point where you actually have to space aerials to respect his grab.

-A decent grab would fix his biggest defensive issues.


Dsmash doesn't link properly sometimes. Should be fixed to link consistently.

Fair ends a lot earlier than it can AC. This is a weird oversight and making it AC at least as soon as it ends should be a good QoL fix.

Flame Chain sometimes misses the last hit. It's rare, but this shouldn't happen.

Flame Choke followups are unnecessarily inconsistent across the cast. In Brawl, the only character that he wouldn't have a followup on is himself if he were given 1 frame earlier IASA. In this game, since he is still the tallest character and the frame advantage is based on height I suspect this is still the case. If they don't tech the Flame Choke, there should be some sort of guaranteed followup. Some characters being immune to followups by virtue of being tall is both arbitrary and silly. The characters immune to his followups also tended to be some of his worst MU's too.

- Making him have IASA 1 frame earlier makes his BnB followups from a Flame Choke consistent across the cast (except vs himself which is cool).


Flame Wave is decent in FFA/teams, but is not that much better on grab than Flame Choke. The reward for landing this move is pretty good, but the setup potential and quicker/safer/longer grab of Flame Choke is the smarter choice.

- I would add Heavy Armor to the move to make it better suited for it's niche and give it some usability over Flame Choke.


Dark Dive needs better reward on grab. As a recovery it isn't better than Dark Fists and is worse than Dark Vault. As an offensive move it is better than Dark Vault, but worse than Dark Fists and overall very lackluster. As a defensive OoS move it has potential, but the lag after the grab, the low knockback, and the RCO lag you receive makes it a bad move. Currently, Dark Dive is a poor middle-ground option with mediocre recovery and poor reward on grab.

- At the very least, the RCO lag on grab (same for Dark Vault) should be fixed and the knockback increased to make it more of a reset to neutral instead of putting yourself in an awkward position. Earlier IASA frames post grab would be nice, especially in teams. It would be interesting if it were sped up a bit, making it slightly better OoS and at recovering, but that may be too much.


Wizard's Foot clanks with very weak projectiles. When even Mega Man pellets stop you in your tracks, this approaching tool leaves much to be desired. Unless you hit with the inner portion of the move, it does 10 damage and is one of his weakest moves knockback wise. Since it takes 9+ damage to outprioritize a move and projectiles will only come into contact with the outermost hitbox, the move only goes through projectiles that do 1% damage.

- If the damage of the move was buffed to do 12% damage on all hitboxes (+0/+0/+2), it would be able to beat some of the weaker projectiles and multi-hit moves.

Wizard's Dropkick with lower (or no) hitlag to spend less time clanking with projectiles would be great for making it excel at what it does and make it safer to use.

Wizard's Assault is basically like the FFA/teams variant of Wizard's Foot, but the speed/power is too low for what it is. I'd maybe add some weak Heavy Armor to it to make it a little more usable. Maybe a little more damage/kb too.


Having no Super Armor when in the air or B-Reversed for Warlock Punch and Warlock Blade is silly. They should both get reduced Super Armor frames or Heavy Armor in the air/B-Reversed instead of having nothing.

Warlock Thrust has too much cooldown for how weak it is. If blocked or whiffed it is a free anything for punishment. On hit it does 9 damage and resets to neutral, making the risk/reward extremely poor. If the risk were toned down, it would be a useful disjointed poke.

- It currently has 65 frames of cooldown. I'd cut it down to like 40.

 

[Watulio]

Got a few quick but sweet things I'd love to see changed from the big guy:

-Side B shall not leave you helpless. However, you can only do it once in the air, like sonic's homing attack. It already leaves ganondorf exposed for a brief time, so it wouldn't be broken.
-Give ftilta slightly weaker super armor compared to the one from the warlock punch.
-Make DSmash link correctly. It's a pain hitting someone once just to have him go away from ganondorf rather than being linked to the second one. The range of it is already bad to have such a mistake in it.
-Warlock punch should have a very short ending lag. It's current cooldown is unnecesarily long, especially considering how long it takes to do the warlock punch.
-Make his shield bigger.
-Makes his second jump go higher. It's pretty lackluster and the only utility I see from it is to stay a bit longer in the air as it doesn't last very long either.
-Makes his Dark dive's last hit stronger. Why? It's a pretty useful hit to do when recovering if an enemy is expecting you in the edge, but it usually isn't strong enough to keep them away for you to recover safely.

 

[HeavyLobster]

I've heard discussions about the difficulties with properly balancing slower, more powerful characters in such a way that they aren't oppressive at lower levels of play but are still good enough to compete at higher levels, and one of the methods for accomplishing this was through the use of armor frames. So one idea I had would be to give Ganon small windows of Super Armor on certain attacks that could enable him to trade in certain situations provided you read an attack and time your move precisely. I chose 3 frame windows because that's the margin for error you have when powershielding, and I felt said window would be appropriate for rewarding skilled players.
I propose:
Super Armor on frames 5-7 on Ganon's Jab
Super Armor on frames 7-9 on Ganon's Ftilt
Super Armor on frames 7-9 on Ganon's Dash Attack
I'd also like to see Fair autocancel correctly from a fullhop.

 

[AngryDeathBox]

I would like dair to have more hitstun so I can combo into more dairs.

But realistically, I'm on the bandwagon for the increased grab range. Maybe increased horizontal movement on up b (Because the grab range for it is already pretty decent) for a more reliable up b out of shield cause that's something I find fun.

 

[etecoon]

I'm probably alone on this but I have the opposite issue with Ganondorf that most have mentioned. I'm ok with Ganondorf having a bad OoS game and relying on it less than other characters, it's something different and Ganondorf's hitboxes are strong enough to overpower a lot of things and allow shielding to be more of a last resort. It's also true to character, Ganondorf doesn't fear your puny little attacks like you fear his. So that being my vision of the character

- Wizkick should have more priority to make it less safe to mindlessly throw out projectiles or other moves at long-mid range. It should at least clank with most projectiles anyway instead of outright losing most of the time

- Bring back untechable flame choke. Blocking against Ganondorf when he isn't right on top of you is already too easy to react to any attempt at a grab, at least make a failure to react in that situation a very serious error along with panic rolling away. I also just find oki throws fun and with this being techable and Snake being gone no one really has that in this game

- More super armor or maybe a little faster neutral B. Even with the absolute hardest of reads, no one should get hit by this move in it's current state ever. This is less a "Ganondorf needs this for balance reasons" thing and more of a "no one should have attacks that literally should NEVER be used" thing. Though it is kind of nice as the ultimate disrespect attack...

Maybe some improvement to utilt as well as it is mostly a gimmick for catching people that don't know better

 

[jahkzheng]

I would like dair to have more hitstun so I can combo into more dairs.

But realistically, I'm on the bandwagon for the increased grab range. Maybe increased horizontal movement on up b (Because the grab range for it is already pretty decent) for a more reliable up b out of shield cause that's something I find fun.

I think what you really want is the AC dairs of Brawl so you could thunderstorm again basically. If Dair had more hitstun, enough to follow with another dair after short hop, as the moves is now with it's landing lag... we'd be talking about a move that's hitstun would allow it to be followed up into just about anything else that isn't warlock punch or utilt. Would be broken, I daresay. You also seem to be implying that teching of the spike against the ground be removed as well perhaps.

Long story short. AC dairs allows for dairs following up into dairs without increasing hitstun and making the move brokenly good.

 

[Naroghin]

Three words: Flight of Ganon.

 

[MrGame&Rock]

He needs a new Utilt, one more in line with other characters that Ganondorf can use as an anti-air tool or to help his combo game or something. As it is, Ganon is basically missing a move. Maybe Volcano Kick can be repurposed into a chargeable Down Smash or Neutral Special or something, but having it as the up tilt is just crazy