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Colorado Smash - MVG Presents: REVELATION 2 - MIDWEST NATIONAL! MVG QUALIFIER! May 16-17

Mikezor

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 22, 2006
Messages
433
Location
Centennial, Colorado
Yang we haven't played yet either.

Ferdi you're right, next smashfest let's play some Melee please? BTW your Toon Link is the best right now. Just like the rest of Colorado (sans McMoney) OOOOOH DAYUM SON. I'm joking, it should really be (sans Heibrahi) OMG PWNTERED TOTALLY. Actually, that was false too. It really is (sans David). What? I'm not taking this one back.
 

spiritdragon

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 5, 2005
Messages
609
Location
Westminster, CO
Ok, here is my tier list WITH explanations and IN ORDER!!! Know that tiers only affect people who are competitively good and tiers can change over time.

ALL characters are now in the exact tier placing. I will get their explanations done when I can get to them. Note that these tiers are done assuming that the players are doing a 3 or 4 stock match without items and in Battlefield or Final Destination.

Top Tier

Toon Link - One of the fastest characters in terms of running speed as well as attack lag. There is nearly no down side to Toon Link, he's basically melee's Marth except with projectiles. Bair is extremely good, allowing you to chain more than one together, Dair not only spikes, but if it hits that shield it gets you away and leaves you safe. Fair/Nair/Uair all help in his already fast damaging game, and provide potent killing moves. His projectiles are amazingly good and very spammable, especially using the double arrow technique. His smashes are fast and very damaging, there is almost no way to escape the second hit if the first hit connects in both the Forward smash and the Down smash. Upsmash is also good as it kills and is his fastest smash. Dash attack has the highest potential to trip your enemy, which easily connects to an Fsmash. Tilts are ok, the only one outstanding is his Utilt as it has massive range and is very fast. His grab range is decent, providing a tether recovery if needed and all throws can be connected into something else. There is no downside to Toon Link as DDD's/Falco's chaingrab is escapable through a well times sidestep/airdodge, and no character flat out counters him aside from himself.

Marth - Also one of the faster characters to move. His aerials, aside from Dair, is very spammable and provide massive damage, especially if the tips connect. Fair to Bair, Fair to Fair, Fair to Uair are all good in order to pressure your opponent's shields and force a roll. Most of his aerials kill, particularly Fair, where it gimps easily if you can get a tip off the stage. Dair seems easier to connect and spike when trying to hit with the back of it rather than the front. Grabs are decent, his range isnt what it used to be, but Bthrow to Tippered Fsmash works at 0%, he can also chain a little when using Fthrow. Fsmash is the most notable difference in Marth's killing capability, due to it's much smaller range, doesn't mean it's bad, just harder to tip with it. Down smash is ok, Up smash is where it gets good, this now hits TWICE and still tips if you're hit from the side of the attack, this vertical killer is very good. Dtilt still has the capability to edgeguard, Utilt hits further back which you can utilize to mindgame, Ftilt is the only nerfed one here as it does only ok damage and tipping doesn't seem to do much more. His regular B now has AMAZING range and still takes out shields(so that's where the range from the Fsmash went), when fully charged, it's also a great recovery move. UpB now has invincibility frames during the first 6 frames, and comes out very fast, perfect shield to UpB is a preferred killing move as well as a good disruptor to anything. Side B dancing blade now comes out ridiculously fast, it's probably your most spammable attack, tacking on a down one at the end nets you more damage, but the regular one is more dependable. note that it doesn't help with recovery anymore, it helps keep your vertical momentum, but not horizontal, as it did in melee. Counter is better, as you can use it immediately from the ledge and it still has a long hang time. DDD's chaingrab is deadly to Marth, it's still capable of taking him all the way to the edge of a stage. Aside from that, Marth is fast enough to properly take care of them and come out on top.

Mr. Game and Watch - A ridiculously overpowered 2d fighter. GaW is able to utilize techchasing to its fullest extent, as many of his moves has amazingly high priority and is disjointed. Only one of GaW's throws is noteworthy, his Dthrow is the best in the game as it provides an easy Dsmash or another techchased grab, there is no way to get out of this relatively simple technique as all they can do is techroll which leads to more techchasing. Approaching is ridiculously easy as all of his aerials contribute to this. The Bair, the turtle, is so overpowered and stays out so long that if you hit their shield you can pretty much guarantee you get away scot free or end up damaging them at the end of the turtle's hitbox. His Fair is still good, giving you an edge with a disjointed hitbox. Nair now acts as a fishbowl is ok, leads people away from it after the first hit though unless they are large. Uair has the interesting property of pushing your enemies' up if you try to hit them with it from below them, at first look this may seem bad, when in reality you can push your enemies up and throw them off. You can airpush things such as Toon Link's and Sheik's Dair, which usually sends them straight down, but with this you can suspend them in the air and force them to screw up(note this doesnt work on B moves that sends characters straight down just as DDD's UpB and Kirby/Bowser's DownB). His Dair sends GaW straight down, it can still spike and the lag is minimal making this one of your choice moves. ALL of GaW's smashes are amazing, Fsmash stays out much longer than you'd expect, Dsmash is now full of **** as the edges will send them far horizontally away and the closer hitbox sends them up for a kill. Usmash is I believe the 4rd strongest and is also spammable like his Dsmash! The bucket absorbs a lot of things and can potentially kill at the lowest of percents, this gives GaW the advantage against projectile characters and can potentially kill Ness/Lucas recovery if you go down and absorb their PKT. Other noteworthy moves include the Dtilt which is nerfed but still good, and the judgment hammer. The number 1 hammer gives yourselves damage and the number 9 is still a kill at 0%. No glaring weaknesses other than against fast disjointed characters.

High Tier

Zelda - Sakurai put the biggest improvement from Melee to Brawl here. Zelda is now a usable character, and a strong one at that. SideB Din's fire is THE best projectile in the game, hands down, amazing maneuverability and ridiculous range allows you to chain more than one together, and helps with killing off the top. This is probably going to be your main way of doing everything, Din's fire to make them get close. Dash attacking is also a good approach as it has massive damage and knockback. The regular B is ok, with Brawl's overall slowless, it may see more and more uses. UpB recover is now also amazing as the end of the animation causes an explosion, making this very very safe. Don't even think about using DownB anymore guys. Ftilt and Utilt is amazingly useful, very high damage and knockback makes it favorable. Downsmash is so fast now that it's awesome to do out of shielding. Usmash is probably her best smash, hits all around any aerial sides making it hard for anyone to approach from the air, while ground approaches get punished by dash attack/Dsmash/Din's fire. Fsmash is still good, sucking people in and hitting them out just like in Melee. Moving right on, Fair and Bair is a double edged sword, it has great KO potential, but if you hit their shield it gives so much hitstun that they can do anything back at you. The move itself has a delay if it connects allowing the other person to DI better as well. Uair and Dair now does more than being just for show, Uair has amazing range and KO ability while Dair actually spikes. Zelda is ****ing good now, although prey to faster projectile spammers(Toon Link, Falco), she does very well against everyone, taking out non disjointed approaches with ease and killing with range.

Pikachu - I choose you, Pikachu! Should be what every player says at the start when using him. Moving on, Pikachu has gotten absolutely buffed in every possible way. Lets start with someone interesting, his Fthrow, has the ability to CHAINGRAB. That's right, chaingrab, the heavier characters(Bowser, DK, DDD, Ganon), all 3 spacies, Falcon, Marth, and possibly more but its hard to test(these characters fall back to the ground though, the ones that go up even slightly cannot be chaingrabbed, like Diddy and Zelda). The other throws are decent but Fthrow is where it's at. Dsmash, quite possibly the best smash ever, this thing outprioritizes so many approaches it's ridiculous, it's also very safe due to it's huge range, and if you hit even once Pikachu becomes safe. Fsmash and Usmash are ok, still good for killing, though not by much. Aerials are all godly, Nair kills, Bair usually hits with ALL hits it sucks people in, Fair is very safe and also sucks people in, Dair's massive improvement can be found upon landing, where there is an area of effect that hits you if you're too close. UpB is now applicable in comboing...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GshUovlVOew

DownB is ridiculous, one of the most potent killers in the game due to its high vertical range, you can kill someone off the top relatively easy if you can see their airdodge. SideB is not only a very damaging move(although you probably wont ever connect), but it helps a whole lot more in recovering. The regular thundershocks provide a decent projectile game for Pikachu as well. Utilt is probably the only tilt you'll be using, cause it provides a combo opportunity and goes nearly all over Pikachu. Killing with Pikachu varies from using Thunder, Fsmash, and Nair, but they are very powerful in terms of killing. There are very few counters to Pikachu as he has a very solid game against everyone aside from Zelda.

Ice Climbers - Only one thing to say. Chaingrab. The ICs may have been looked over by a lot of people, and what they don't realize is the amazingly easy chaingrabs that the ICs still have. For example, you can just Dthrow to more Dthrows, all across FD. Another is the Dthrow to Fair desynch chaingrab which works until 25%(maybe more but my next point is the highlight), and at that point, you can do a Dthrow to Fair to spaced ice blocks for an infinite, try it yourself. This happens when the enemy falls and is in a resting animation and the ice blocks will laser lock them, the trick is they only fall if the Fair gets the enemy to 27% or higher. The IC's SideB is ridiculously useful now, if done with both Nana and Popo the end will hit the enemy up and away from you, if done alone/desynched you can almost infinite with it, repeatedly doing Nana's and Popo's solo squall with timing and spacing. The UpB now does even more damage and knockback and the ICs are both able to grab the ledge now, as opposed to melee which only lets one of the climbers grab the ledge. Uair's disjointedness is still useful and Bair is still able to kill. Dair now takes the climbers straight down but it is a very laggy move. Fair is where most of the improvement happened in their aerials as it is a very good method for killing and comboing now. All of the ICs smashes save Fsmash is unfortunately nerfed, only Fsmash can kill but the other smashes can be used out of a grab by Nana to tack on further damage.

Fox - Space animals are immune to nerfing. Despite Sakurai's attempts to make Fox a crappy character, it didn't work. Fox is still fast, deals high damage, and combos with easy and simple moves. Dair, the most important move in Fox's arsenal, it hits multiple times and takes cares of shields as well as auto canceling which easily leads to either a Utilt or a Shine. The rest of his tilts also offer good spacing and knockback. Speed shining and waveshining(more like run n shine) exists which enables Fox to do simple cheap things. Speed shining is when you time your shines in order to make grounded shines as fast as aerial shines, and the run and shine is simply running into a shine and chaining more than one together, Fox is fast enough to do this. All of Fox's smashes are really good, Fsmash goes forward and kills, Usmash is still one of the best vertical killer, and Dsmash works almost like GaW's edge Dsmash and launches them horizontally. The laser is not as spammable although a full jumped triple laser can be cancelled into grounded lasers. The SideB illusion is better than ever, allowing a fast moving less laggier and more damaging illusion that can still be cancelled. His UpB recovery is where it gets interesting, by putting your control stick to the space between a diagonal and a direction, you can now curve your Firefox in order to suit your recovery better, so there are now 24 directions in which Fox can recover into, 8 of which are curved and may go through crappy edges. You must understand that the Shine is still capable of killing, I've shined a Falco out of his UpB recovery before, it is possible just harder due to the decreased hitbox size/longer hit startup frames.

Olimar
Lucas
Ness

Upper Tier
Falco
Pit
Diddy
Sheik
Peach
Snake
Jigglypuff
Donkey Kong
Wolf

Middle Tier
Ivysaur
Sonic
Charizard
Kirby
Lucario
Luigi
Metaknight
DDD
Bowser
Squirtle

Low Tier
ROB
Mario
Ike
Zamus
C.Falcon
Wario
Link

Bottom Tier
Samus
Yoshi
Ganondorf
 

Ryyudo

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 12, 2008
Messages
1
Location
Highlands Ranch, Colorado.
Isn't it a bit too early for a tier list? I mean Colorado hasn't even had its first tournament yet.
Doesn't hurt to speculate, right? :) I disagree with quite a bit of it, but that's just that, speculation.

Alright, after sleeping for about 20 hours due to sickness, I think I can keep myself up enough for some rounds of Brawl (though I admit, I dunno how long I can keep myself up, I just wanna play :|) AIM me (Jam102552) or post back. :laugh:
 

Zenjamin

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 12, 2006
Messages
1,244
Location
Reading, Pa.
DDD do you mean DDD debatable on high/mid?

he is a great charcter, and judged on his own i would claim him to be way up there, but here are certian popular characters who will counter DDD greatly i believe. Toon link among them.



/shrug

regardless, I wont take his tier placings into consideration.
I play DDD for three reasons
for fun, his inherent badassness, and his taunts.
 

Tranzworld

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 8, 2008
Messages
88
Location
Fort Collins, CO
I'm in Nite's base Stealing his COMBOS!

C-C-C-COMBO BREAKER ^_________^

Seriously though Nite, good games, your GaW is better than i thought, and i'm glad i'm not just another camper/spammer =P.

Colorado >>>>>>>> All. I would safely bet a $240 Million jackpot on this.

Now I just need to play IoZ and Mike, Zenja is out of the question for now seeing as he lags so badly.

I want to get better =D.

And Nite, I'm still stealing your combos lol.

Edit (God, I really should stop edditing EVERY **** post of mine):
After looking through your list Ferdi, I agree with most of it, I'll pull it up again in a second and Edit with my other opinions, but for now, it looks about right.

Edit2:
Alright, things i disagree with:
GaW - I actually think he needs to be a bit lower. His recovery is pretty much "Hey, SMASH ME~" and his ground game is just weak, especially with the dtilt nerf. I still think he's just too light to be competivily viable against some of the heavier, harder hitting characters.

Lucas - IMO (especially with the B-Stick applications he has) he deserves to be very high on the tier list(Maybe Top), his combos, while they can be DI'd, are hella annoying to get out of, and his Pk Thunder is a great mindgame to play.

Marth - Ah What the hell, Marth's the new Spacies. Ignore this.

Yeah, please debate with me if you disagree =D.
 
D

Draknodred

Guest
Sure, Yang, GGs with the FFA. Zelda for top tier?

Drak, watch your rolling, that's what netted me the 3 stockage. Also, Peach Bomber less, since it has atrocious priority, and stay on the ground more. She seems to have a solid ground game, this time around. Fair to kill/space, bair to rack up damage.

I'm sad that Sonic is so ridiculously hard to play with even the slightest bit of lag. It's dumb. D:
Thanks for the advice, I'm working on improving my ground game I just never know how to get in there for damage without getting rocked. I'm working on being able to fair from the ground with peach. Also were you !zzy? I get so confused with everyones names on WiFi, if I mistook you for someone else whoops but I played a handful of people tonight haha.

Seriously though I'll play anytime with people who are better than me, I never played SSBM so this is kind of new to me. I'm still learning a lot of the game mechanics so any and all criticism advice I really really appreciate. I'll be around tomorrow or late tonight for more games :)
 

DancingFighterG

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 29, 2003
Messages
557
Yo, this is DancingFighterG. Hey Colorado players, were trying to make CCCT the largest Brawl tournament in April. I have confirmation from players in Arizona and other places that they are showing up so can we all of you to sign up for registration so people know that it's worth there wild.

www.coloradocutthroat.com/signupintro.php

1 month until the big dance so let's get the signups going. :)
 

spiritdragon

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 5, 2005
Messages
609
Location
Westminster, CO
DDD do you mean DDD debatable on high/mid?

he is a great charcter, and judged on his own i would claim him to be way up there, but here are certian popular characters who will counter DDD greatly i believe. Toon link among them.
I put debatable on high/top. Did you even read my post o_O?

Colorado >>>>>>>> All. I would safely bet a $240 Million jackpot on this.

Edit2:
Alright, things i disagree with:
GaW - I actually think he needs to be a bit lower. His recovery is pretty much "Hey, SMASH ME~" and his ground game is just weak, especially with the dtilt nerf. I still think he's just too light to be competivily viable against some of the heavier, harder hitting characters.

Lucas - IMO (especially with the B-Stick applications he has) he deserves to be very high on the tier list(Maybe Top), his combos, while they can be DI'd, are hella annoying to get out of, and his Pk Thunder is a great mindgame to play.
Ok first of all, OMFG SWF!!! I ****ING EDITED A PART OF THE TIER LIST AND YOU DENY SHOWING IT WTF!?!?!? I wrote "currently, only the characters with explanations below them are accurately depicted in my tier list, the ones that are in the tier without an explanation are just put there, they are NOT all in order yet", and SWF is being gaaaaaaaaaaaay.

So this blows those 2 parts above about gaW and Lucas since you misinterpreted it, sorry about that. However, GaW is amazing on the ground whatchu talking bout? Play MY GaW if I need to prove it. Also, his recovery is amazingly unpredictable due to it being cancellable. You know how to do this, you know how amazing it is to cancel UpB to Dair to Fsmash.

Ugh, I will see if I can fix that go**** first part of the post.
 

Timotee

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 12, 2006
Messages
302
Location
Denver, CO
I look forward to more info from the Ferdi, though I are sad that the GaW guy did nots name me.

Saaaaad paaaanda.

Also, mikez is ugly
 

sparkyy

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 16, 2008
Messages
8
Location
Fort Collins
hey there Fort Collins here represent lol anyways hope everyone wants to play me once I get my dang wii code and brawl code right thanks for reading this bye. heh
 

Demolisho

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 15, 2004
Messages
101
Here we have my FC.
1504-5421-8708

I don't consider myself good or great. But I'm learning.
 

Zenjamin

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 12, 2006
Messages
1,244
Location
Reading, Pa.
Hey Ferdi, I would like to argue that high tier is the highest that DDD will be, even high mid tier is a possibility IMO.


DDD is excellent when you look at him on his own, statistically hardest character to kill, verry mobile in the air, chain-grab, strong, projectile, fair range, can WOP...

but against certain charcters, his speed and size will make for some verry difficult match-ups.
many of the projectile users can negate DDD's Dees, which are relatively slow, and many of those are the upper tier and popular charcters. so characters like TL, falco, and olimar can sit back and make DDD a huge spamable target and force him to come to them, and DDD's ground approach is his weakest aspect of his game.

further, DDD is unable to chain-grab about half of the cast, and all of those are in the upper half of your tier list. and the more popular ones at that. (except for marth... thank god)
 

Mikezor

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 22, 2006
Messages
433
Location
Centennial, Colorado
Hey Ferdi, I would like to argue that high tier is the highest that DDD will be, even high mid tier is a possibility IMO.


DDD is excellent when you look at him on his own, statistically hardest character to kill, verry mobile in the air, chain-grab, strong, projectile, fair range, can WOP...

but against certain charcters, his speed and size will make for some verry difficult match-ups.
many of the projectile users can negate DDD's Dees, which are relatively slow, and many of those are the upper tier and popular charcters. so characters like TL, falco, and olimar can sit back and make DDD a huge spamable target and force him to come to them, and DDD's ground approach is his weakest aspect of his game.

further, DDD is unable to chain-grab about half of the cast, and all of those are in the upper half of your tier list. and the more popular ones at that. (except for marth... thank god)
Or you just suck with him.

Beheheheheheh.
 

Tranzworld

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 8, 2008
Messages
88
Location
Fort Collins, CO
Holy ****! Timotee still visits these boards?!?! Then I hafta play him too.

And Jamal, I've already 'technically' played you. But we can play again!

@Ferdi:
When I said recovery, my mind said roll.

Recovery is amazing, i still am baffled as to why I put recovery.
 
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