Collections of Cognitive Dissonance

[Herbert Von Karajan]

the best part about taa

I like the farting animation

 

[Studstill]

Kabal is better than Cobr?
Hrrm, objectively I think so. Any evidence, y`all played?

mixa is hilarious. I caught like all three of those clever little posts. Nailing it, dude. Lmao.

 

[Cobrevolution]

kabal is better than me

however, we haven't played in over a year, so i dunno

he'll probably still win all the time in samus dittos

 

[MrMarbles]

whos kabal?

 

[Cobrevolution]

the most mejor samus main in america

 

[MrMarbles]

video plz?

 

[Cobrevolution]

uhh he's on youtube somewhere vsing a$ and matts i think

we played tonight, he won majority, but was pretty close games. fun

 

[kys]

Kabal is better at the horrific Falcon matchup from my experience, which is significant. Overall they're close, but Kabal has a slight edge there. Both are legit Sami

 

[The Star King]

I think Kabal is probably the type of player who won't seem like much in video. You have to experience him in game

 

[mixa]

that kind of statement doesn't make sense to me

pls elaborate

 

[Cobrevolution]

you'll watch a video of someone and be like, dude doesn't look like he's anything special, i can get around that pretty easily

but then you play him and realize you were wrong. he's deceiving or w/e

 

[Shears]

It means hes not flashy and fancy. Doesn't do anything that really wows the crowd from a showmanship standpoint. Instead, plays very smart and spaced and specific. Typically a play that looks great on youtube is offensive, play that doesn't look like much but is when you experience it in game is defensive. I've never played kabal but I imagine by SKs description, kabal plays more defensive and patient vs offensive and aggressive.

For example, MATTS comes across to me as a more exciting kirby to watch because he is offensive. M2K isn't exciting to watch on youtube because he is defensive. Playing M2K in person is still an experience because his talent isn't in wowing the crowd, its in his boring patience that is smart and successful.

Also take Wizzrobe for example. Watching him it looks like what hes doing is simple, I was convinced kefit would beat him and then I would beat him in losers at Apex. He just didn't do anything that was like, wow how the hell can that be stopped. Then he beat kefit and kefit beat me and I never played him until online and thats when I realized just how good he was. He isn't flashy and doesn't beat you by out teching you, he reads you, waits, spaces, does the little things, and just puts himself in positions that make him win and make you lose. Youtube won't do him justice, but playing him in person you realize that there is nothing you can do and he just outthinks you. z-cancel as much as you want, short hop, fast fall, shield drop, do it all it won't matter, he beats you with his mind not his hands. Thats what SK was getting at. Some people aren't fancy, they're smart.

 

[mixa]

i'm the guy who gets excited by watching the japanese play, and who thinks moyashi is amazing. clearly i'm not blinded by flashy/offensive playstyle. in fact, the more play-to-win the player is, the more i'll like him (read: i like m2k, stranded sucks)

the problem i have is why would some player's real talent be hidden, even if he's playing various decent opponents, while other players don't have that. do these deceiving players have "better mindgames", what?

 

[Shears]

Yes some play with better mindgames, some play with better tech. Tech is easy to see, mindgames aren't. So the deceiving players are typically the mindgame players. Some play with both and they're the ones like Isai and Boom that have truly mastered the game.

 

[Cobrevolution]

it's really just an experiential thing. like being on a basketball court and seeing someone play, thinking yeah i can guard this guy...and then you just...can't stop him.

which is why you need to come to apex MIXA

 

[Skrlx]

priority exists. example: pink samus has higher priority

black samus is only good in the japanese version

orange samus is only good if the player who's playing her is a salty samus main

wut

isn't this just port priority? I don't see how color makes a difference

 

[Sangoku]

That was mixa's joke. The rest of the claims made it pretty obvious.

 

[Shears]

wut

isn't this just port priority? I don't see how color makes a difference

Blue hat pika is the strongest. Fact. Priority therefore exists.

 

[Studstill]

i'm the guy who gets excited by watching the japanese play, and who thinks moyashi is amazing. clearly i'm not blinded by flashy/offensive playstyle. in fact, the more play-to-win the player is, the more i'll like him (read: i like m2k, stranded sucks)

the problem i have is why would some player's real talent be hidden, even if he's playing various decent opponents, while other players don't have that. do these deceiving players have "better mindgames", what?

Because the people watching don`t know what they are looking for, basically. When you play someone, you can feel it, like how soon they hit you, etc, move by move, approach by approach. For example I don`t care at all about tech, but if I see someone do some quick (frame/2frame stuff) moves in succession, even if it`s just moving, I can tell they had the forethought and ability to do that complex thing.
tl;dr: Need skill to recognize skill.

I think the term "tech" comes from fighting games?

Exactly, so does "priority". There is literally no reason to use "general fighting game" terms in Smash. This boggles me, the opposition to "not using words that don`t truly apply, not generalizing to the point of inaccuracy."
Really I don`t care re: current players. I just don`t want new players, of which I think their will soon be an influx of, to get the wrong idea about game mechanics due to sloppy/laziness/lassez faire attitude towards terminology. Literally had someone call a move a ComboBreaker, and wasn`t making an analogy. Why god why.

 

[Cobrevolution]

again, a combo breaker is a real thing. see: samus upb, pika upb. it can interrupt, or BREAK, a combo that is occurring. DI can be seen as a technique that breaks combos.

@ Fireblaster can give you a full list of everything about smash that makes it a fighting game, and there's no reason not to consider it one. it isn't doing the game an injustice by calling it a fighter. it merely isn't a traditional 2d fighter like MK.

if we call something a "pivot up tilt", and you say "no that's too confusing, i call it running, turning around, and doing the up kick"...there are two different things being discussed. if we break it down...

a PIVOT is turning around during your character's initial dash, of which each character has a different speed. a character's full dash (RUN) may be faster or slower than its initial dash. every character has a laggy turnaround animation when trying to turn around out of a RUN, as if they skid a bit and put the brakes on. this animation (and its accompanying lag) is not present when you turn around during the initial dash. it is why dash dancing is possible only in the initial dash and not a run.

referring to a move as an uptilt is more specific than the kind of move. all characters have the same inputs for their moves (tilts, jabs, smashes, up aerials, down b's, etc). therefore, you can pivot utilt with ANY character. it is most common with kirby, of course.

if we look at your explanation of it: the maneuver you are describing includes running (full dash), turning around (laggy animation), and performing the up kick. which, depending on the character, means a kick while holding the up direction...falcon has two "up kicks", his tilt and his aerial. how do we know which one to use? (this discrepancy is eliminated by using tilt instead of kick, because you cannot perform a tilt in the air)

when i was getting into the scene, i read the advanced guide. some of the terms i've only read there (ie, reflex tech, also called momentum canceling, which i think was borrowed from melee, but it's still something present in the game, illustrated here out of proportion to prove a point) and some were just obvious (all of my friends called edgeguarding edgeguarding and edgehogging edgehogging, without any knowledge of what the community's terms may be. they happened to be the same). anyway, all of the terms there, i found very easy to understand.

there's actually a bit in there about priority, saying that it doesn't exist in aerials and grabs, but only for grounded moves. i actually haven't read this in a while and should give it a look again. lots of interesting stuff in there. crouch pivoting what the ****

 

[Fireblaster]

Exactly, so does "priority". There is literally no reason to use "general fighting game" terms in Smash. This boggles me, the opposition to "not using words that don`t truly apply, not generalizing to the point of inaccuracy."
Really I don`t care re: current players. I just don`t want new players, of which I think their will soon be an influx of, to get the wrong idea about game mechanics due to sloppy/laziness/lassez faire attitude towards terminology. Literally had someone call a move a ComboBreaker, and wasn`t making an analogy. Why god why.

A descriptive measure of an attack's tendency to strike the opponent when that opponent is also attacking. In general, higher priority attacks always interrupt lower priority attacks. It's important to note that "priority" is usually simply a term of convenience - very few games actually have an internal mechanism that governs the resolution of attacks via priority. Instead, priority arises as a consequence of the characters' hit-box properties during a move. Typically, hit-box properties can lead to priority in two ways. First, during the move, the character's attacking hit-box can extends far beyond his target hit-box such that he can hit the opponent without being hit. Second, priority can arise when a move allows the character to attack another character while being invincible for a certain duration of the move (where such invincibility is usually the consequence of the complete absence of a target hit-box). An example of a high priority move is Ken's Shoryuken in the Street Fighter II series, a move which had extensive invincibility frames during its startup. In later renditions of Street Fighter II, the amount of invincibility frames was reduced, but even when not invincible, the attacking hit-box remained a great deal larger than the target hit-box for a relatively long duration of the move.
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Glossary_of_fighting_games#Priority

I think you need to tone it down on the usage of this word. It's been used in reference to the way the ACTUAL game mechanics are like for so many years now in gaming in general and you're the only one making a big deal out of it like it should be super special for ssb64 only or something.

On the other hand, "teching" is a fighting game term that has nothing to do with the way it's used in smash (getting up fast). In fact, in fighting games, teching refers to breaking throws. But the way it is now, literally the entire smash community refers to it as teching, and while I would like for them to use a more correct term, it's more trouble than it's worth to attempt to change everyone's minds about which terminology to use.

again, a combo breaker is a real thing. see: samus upb, pika upb. it can interrupt, or BREAK, a combo that is occurring. DI can be seen as a technique that breaks combos.

No, it doesn't break combos. Those are moves that let you escape "semi combos" (not true hitstun combos) where you have 1 or a few frames where you can pull out a move.

@ Fireblaster can give you a full list of everything about smash that makes it a fighting game, and there's no reason not to consider it one. it isn't doing the game an injustice by calling it a fighter. it merely isn't a traditional 2d fighter like MK.

There are so many things about smash that makes it a fighting game that I couldn't possibly list them all, much less explain them.

Footsies, blocking, mixups, okizeme (wake up vs techchasing), turtling, Rush that **** down, stage control, escaping the corner/ledge, keep away, zoning, pokes, combos, air vs ground approach, anti airs, guard break/guard crush (shield break), juggling, hitstun, reversals (what you keep falsely referreing to as "combo breakers"), etc.

The list goes on and on.

 

[rjgbadger]

I think in general Nubskill is refering to 'technical ability/tech skill' when he says 'tech.' Not quite sure though.

 

[mixa]

fgc terms are pretty cool, after all. i like 'reversal' a lot.

 

[Cobrevolution]

No, it doesn't break combos. Those are moves that let you escape "semi combos" (not true hitstun combos) where you have 1 or a few frames where you can pull out a move.

sustained. this is true, yes. but combo escaper sounds really weird. also, i use frame trap instead of semi combo, and i don't know where i picked it up. since smash lacks a reversal, i don't think it's a terrible travesty to call such moves combo breakers, but the term also isn't something i say more than once a year and hear from other people less, so it's a big chunk of whatever for me.


what the **** is turtling

 

[Fireblaster]

sustained. this is true, yes. but combo escaper sounds really weird. also, i use frame trap instead of semi combo, and i don't know where i picked it up. since smash lacks a reversal, i don't think it's a terrible travesty to call such moves combo breakers, but the term also isn't something i say more than once a year and hear from other people less, so it's a big chunk of whatever for me.

Reversal refers to moves that let you escape tight pressure and prevent frame traps from working. It isn't an inherent property of a move for it to be a reversal, it just has to have all the right things about it to be a good reversal. Mario, pikachu, and samus's upB have invincibility on frame 1, can be easily mashed, and either lets you get away from your opponent or hurts him during your invincibility frames.

Saying reversal sounds a lot better than combo breaker because in some fighting games there DOES exist a combo breaker mechanic that lets players escape legitimate true combos, and that's still different than doing a reversal out of a frame trap or dropped combo.

what the **** is turtling

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIPpVzqhWnk#t=780

 

[Cobrevolution]

oh STALLING okay

see i played wrestling games so a reversal brings to mind when some husky ************ has your arm behind your back and you spin around and reverse it so you have him in that position

 

[Fireblaster]

No it's not stalling. Turtling is about creating an impenetrable defense.

 

[asianaussie]

i feel reversals are an odd term to use in smash due to the nature of blocking and wakeup

and combo breaker is a term that should be limited to the MK breakers, arcsys bursts and MB spark type counters (aka. break out while you're in the middle of a true combo)

 

[MrMarbles]

good di can arguably be a combo breaker

 

[Sangoku]

No because DI dun exits.

 

[MrMarbles]

POSITIONAL INFLUENCE.

 

[Studstill]

It`s surreal. It`s like we`ve all just agreed that priority, combo breaker, reversal, etc are not terms that should be used to describe Smash 64, but we`re gonna use them anyway. Personally, I find it offensive and degrading to the game to have this need to put it in the box with "thugh fiteing gamz".
Fire: It is worth the trouble. Seriously. Also, I`m confused:

"I think you need to tone it down on the usage of this word. It's been used in reference to the way the ACTUAL game mechanics are like for so many years now in gaming in general and you're the only one making a big deal out of it like it should be super special for ssb64 only or something."
What? I`m saying it should never be used and I have never said it myself, except in the sentence "priority is a sloppy and incorrect way to describe Smash 64, we shouldn`t tone done it`s usage, we should cease using it entirely." So I`m genuinely confused by this statement?

Cobr: Why do you need a goddamn word/phrase. Just say "Pika UpB`s first frame is invulnerable, allowing you to use it in situations where you have very few frames to avoid/attack an opponent."
DONE. ACCURATE. HELPFUL. WHY WOULD WE TALK ANY OTHER WAY?
There are literally no excuses for this, and I think in lieu of shame for allowing game to be "discussed" in this way you all should cease saying these inaccurate phrases; leading directly to better and true discussion of the game and eliminating the confusion of new players.

@Hip: No, I fully object to the use of the word "tech" to describe Breakfalls or Rolls. I capitalize these because they are not generic "fighting game" terms, but proper nouns given by Nintendo to the moves in the game. No one had any right to start using other words, much less to demand that I conform. It`s ludicrous, confusing, and I literally don`t understand the reason for it. I`m not insisting that you cannot use whatever slang you want, but you must acknowledge it is slang and confusing and that the correct Nintendo terms are accurate, not the other way around. Again, Hip, your confusion on what I meant is a perfect example of what we should all try to prevent.

I am new to THE SCENE, not to THE GAME. Before the break, I have smashed for 3 times (Cobr) and 8 times (Steve) as long as you. I read that guide in the first 5 minutes of finding SB, and found it to be an excellent guide for beginners, but again, full of weird slang. You pretend like: everything I know from tens of thousands of gameplay hours < "hitting the Z button before you land to eliminate landing lag"; literally the simplest thing in the game (timing a single button press). Please stop acting like I am a new player that needs to be educated. AND DO NOT RESPOND TO THIS WITH SOME HORSE **** CASUAL vs. COMPETITIVE ASSERTION. In fact, don`t respond to this at all, other than to have the requested change in tone or not. I`ve been in your "scene" for two months, I have read almost all of SB, and I assure you (since you seem not to know) the majority of the work on this game was done by very few people, and I have yet to see a post from either of you detailing the mechanics of the game in regards to any subject. I`m not being insulting, merely pointing out that you should take this in to account when speaking with me about the game. Seriously, I mean no offense by this, sorry if it comes off wrong.

 

[asianaussie]

It`s surreal. It`s like we`ve all just agreed that priority, combo breaker, reversal, etc are not terms that should be used to describe Smash 64, but we`re gonna use them anyway. Personally, I find it offensive and degrading to the game to have this need to put it in the box with "thugh fiteing gamz".
Fire: It is worth the trouble. Seriously.

stop it, this is the exact attitude towards smash that i abhor in the scrublands of the FGC, just with the word 'kiddy' over 'thugh'

also, nobody really uses 'reversal', and 'combo breaker' isnt really used... we just talk about being able to escape things with some characters' up-Bs

@Hip: No, I fully object to the use of the word "tech" to describe Breakfalls or Rolls. I capitalize these because they are not generic "fighting game" terms, but proper nouns given by Nintendo to the moves in the game. No one had any right to start using other words, much less to demand that I conform. It`s ludicrous, confusing, and I literally don`t understand the reason for it. I`m not insisting that you cannot use whatever slang you want, but you must acknowledge it is slang and confusing and that the correct Nintendo terms are accurate, not the other way around. Again, Hip, your confusion on what I meant is a perfect example of what we should all try to prevent.

actually, in some fighting games, such as soul calibur and melty blood, the action of waking up from a soft knockdown is referred to teching, and im fairly sure that actually carried over from smash itself

and in that vein, communities come up with names for things, and they stick - 'greenhand' for gief's banishing flat, or 'scissor kick' for dictator's knee press in SF4 - these are fanmade terms that are nothing like the 'official' terms, but they work and nobody needs to object to them

when it's become so deeply ingrained into every smash game, there really isn't a need to campaign for a renaming of 'teching' to 'breakfalling' or 'rolling', especially when rolls already refer to something completely different

oh yeah, and time means pretty much nothing when it comes to how good or knowledgeable you are about a game, so you can honestly throw that argument away - the ones who improve the fastest are usually the ones who stop assuming they already have a good grasp on the game

 

[Sangoku]

Can I call you 张先生 Studstill?

IIRC Sirlin said something I really liked. It went along the lines that "practice makes perfect" is wrong and it should be "perfect practice makes perfect". This is especially true in smash where every random noob have played the game for as long as the best players. So yeah time is the least relevant argument in smash.

 

[KnitePhox]

nobody most (>99% of) smashers will never use the term "breakfall" to describe a tech

smashers will refer to it as tech and if you can't even convince us (very small amount of 64 players) to start using it what hope is there for the rest of smashers at large?

 

[Studstill]

nobody most (>99% of) smashers will never use the term "breakfall" to describe a tech

smashers will refer to it as tech and if you can't even convince us (very small amount of 64 players) to start using it what hope is there for the rest of smashers at large?

Perhaps, there still might be some confusion: I do not care one bit about "Smashers at large". This game can and should stand on it`s own as the best. Melee, I have some experience, and a piddling amount with Brawl, but I don`t really see the relevance in cross-game strategies. Further I don`t care for either of those games. I`m not waging a campaign on verbiage, or I suppose I might have on accident, but our goals at the site are far grander. Specifically:

(very small amount of 64 players)

This is exactly what we at the site aim to change. Tournaments such as pidge_zero`s and others attract new players every month, half the people I know that play this game are barely older than it. I`m optimistic about it`s future growth and current stability as an active game. You know a large glimpse from being on FU, the game is being played! With some final, but major changes being implemented this weekend(or week) we will be well in place for that tournament, and Zenith, or even non-64 events as an outreach mechanism. I believe in this game, that it is not the problem, but some external or market forces affect it being more widely accessible. Obviously there are also some infrastructure that needs to be built, as this is the task we are working on now

Can I call you 张先生 Studstill?

Sure, seeing as I don`t speak Japanese (Chinese? IDK, lol) and am inclined to think you`re not insulting me.

So yeah time is the least relevant argument in smash.

oh yeah, and time means pretty much nothing when it comes to how good or knowledgeable you are about a game, so you can honestly throw that argument away - the ones who improve the fastest are usually the ones who stop assuming they already have a good grasp on the game

Again, either some confusion or just some weird desire to repeatedly make that^ point. To be clear, again: I only brought that up in response to dismissive half-assed 'critiques' of my opinions on Smash. Thus, in the context of my views it was meant serve as an admonishment to straight ignorance of the merit of my views based on the fact that I haven`t been hanging out on SB for a few years, not as a stand alone fact proving I`m correct. Although, re:SB knowledge: I assure you I`ve probably read more of the site than most of you, my eyes are bleeding from the past two months, lol. The Kero noob talk from a years ago is straight gold.
I understand that am idiot child could just generate playtime by drooling on a controller, but when you remind me of this fact it seems as if you`re implying I was drooling, instead of devotedly mastering the game. I don`t assume I`m good, you assume I`m not. Take 3-4 years off the game and see what it does.

stop it, this is the exact attitude towards smash that i abhor in the scrublands of the FGC, just with the word 'kiddy' over 'thugh'

No idea what you mean here^
also, nobody really uses 'reversal', and 'combo breaker' isnt really used... we just talk about being able to escape things with some characters' up-Bs
Fair enough. I feel strongly about it, for sure, but it is rare and further IDC really what people say, just that we`re all clear on what the correct term is and the slang. Whatevs, I feel like we`ve beaten this into a conclusion. XD

actually, in some fighting games, such as soul calibur and melty blood, the action of waking up from a soft knockdown is referred to teching, and im fairly sure that actually carried over from smash itself
These are all pretty shaky etymologically, like Fireblaster, I could grab a definition, but there are any number of them:
Teching[edit] [from wikipedia]
Also known as "Softening", is when you counter your opponents throw attempt. This was first implemented by players in Street Fighter II.

and in that vein, communities come up with names for things, and they stick - 'greenhand' for gief's banishing flat, or 'scissor kick' for dictator's knee press in SF4 - these are fanmade terms that are nothing like the 'official' terms, but they work and nobody needs to object to them
Yeah, I agree that names for things are cool, but not if the meaning of them is defined or is similarly inaccurate:
i.e "doug hug", which I hate, but is accurate and doesn`t mean anything else, maybe some weird sexual thing, so who cares. It isn`t going to confuse anyone like a commentator saying teching, which can mean any number of things.

On this note, and in anticipation of our major update of the site, we`ll be creating a thread of the wish-list variety. We would love to hear what you would like from the site, anything and everything you`d wanted to go alongside Smash 64, either console, online or tournament, literally anything! Do it! Even if it`s "Have a kickstarter to force Studstill to admit he`s a noob!", we want to know!
http://smashboards.com/threads/supersmashbros64-com-wish-list-tell-us-what-to-do.357470/

 

[Sangoku]

Sure, seeing as I don`t speak Japanese (Chinese? IDK, lol) and am inclined to think you`re not insulting me.]

I'm not insulting you. Let's wait to see who gets it, then I'll tell you why.

 

[rjgbadger]

wow nubskill [sic] has been playing for 8 times as long as Karajan, yet he can't even best him in a single game when Steve uses keyboard instead of controller.

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[Herbert Von Karajan]

I capitalize these because they are not generic "fighting game" terms, but proper nouns given by Nintendo to the moves in the game. No one had any right to start using other words, much less to demand that I conform. It`s ludicrous, confusing, and I literally don`t understand the reason for it. I`m not insisting that you cannot use whatever slang you want, but you must acknowledge it is slang and confusing and that the correct Nintendo terms are accurate, not the other way around. Again, Hip, your confusion on what I meant is a perfect example of what we should all try to prevent.

I actually own Nintendo's OFFICIAL Smash 64 strategy guide. Do you know the real names of all the moves bestowed on us from nintendo?

Here, try to guess what moves these are, using our UNAMBIGUOUS terminology
(1) Slow spin kick (kirby)
(2) Spinning kick (kirby)
(3) Air flame (samus)
(4) Flamethrower (samus)
(5) Kick (samus)
(6) Low Shove (samus)
(7) Super low sweep (samus)
(8) Stretch kick (falcon)
(9) Shoulder charge (falcon)
(10) Shove (jigglypuff)
(11) Middle Kick (jigglypuff)
(12) Side Kick (jigglypuff)
(13) Kick (jigglypuff)

Not even boomfan can get a 100% on this without using the stragtegy guide. Oh, and sheilding is actually called a "Block", a term borrowed from fighting games. Oh and the freaking smash booklet that comes with the game calls it a non-typical fighting game.

Please stop acting like I am a new player that needs to be educated.

Do you honestly think you are better than me and you are above my advice on how to play better?

wow nubskill [sic] has been playing for 8 times as long as Karajan, yet he can't even best him in a single game when Steve uses keyboard instead of controller.

I let him beat me once when I tried to play like him so I could get him to agree to a money match the next week on console. I showed Fireblaster the match and we both lol'd pretty hard. I also felt too bad for trying to take his money. One of the first matches we played on console I was falcon vs his kirby, I let him get me down to one stock then I had a 5 stock comeback ROFL. Probably shoulda utilted more

 

[Cobrevolution]

you've been playing longer than most people and most people are better than you at the game

what does that tell you?


regardless, this is the point i was making

full of weird slang.

a "pivot utilt" is more accurate than saying "turning around while running then doing the up a or up kick"

i think you're underestimating how quickly and effortlessly people understand these terms, and i think it boils down to the fact that you simply do not agree with them. fireblaster disagrees with like 90% of what we say but he doesn't rant about it. i've heard him say guard and block before, and footsies, and it took me a moment to realize what he was talking about...but i didn't go HEY JAVI PRICK YOU NEED TO USE OUR LINGO. cuz i understood it fine.

but that stuff isn't unambiguous...like the above example.