Collections of Cognitive Dissonance

[Herbert Von Karajan]

I think yall should move the stuff that Studstill wants to talk about into this thread please.

In this post I'll also compile a list of things Studstill is wrong about:

Feel free to point out other stuff he is incorrect and address why it is wrong. Maybe this could evolve into a FAQ for noobs.

Spoiler: Priority does not exist

There is no priority: Get any hitbox into a hurtbox and success!

Clanking/priority I feel are not terms that apply to SSB64

Spoiler: Momentum matters

(He probably means velocity; the definition of momentum is p = mv, where p is momentum, v is velocity, and m is mass... I dont think studstill knows physics)

I still believe there is a momentum component to interactions.
...
The interaction between hitboxes/hurtboxes is defined by some base attributes such as damage and knockback, but also depends on when (within the move) they connect, and based on character momentum.
...
This is really the only example I can clearly give of why I think there is a "momentum" component to both knockback and hitbox interaction (re:sametime, cancel). You can sometimes break Yoshi`s jump with a Nair, if you time it right. I haven`t messed around with this TAS wise, but it seems that Kirby`s momentum and the "internal momentum" (when in the Nair they connect) are factors, again making priority a sloppy way to talk about it. This is even more obvious with the Bair, much more rare that you can break Yosh jump with this move, but I`ve done it.
.

Spoiler: Hitbox Behavior

AFAIK: A hitbox is a hitbox; has certain size, damage, and base knockback attributes depending on what move it came from, but doesn`t interact differently if it's a special move or aerial or smash that generated it.

Note: He either means that hitboxes are constant depending on whether or not they start in the ground or in the air (false, see DK upb) or he might be saying that all hitboxes behave the same way, which is also wrong (see fox laser)

Again, I do not believe that hitboxes are different re: move they came from.

OK so he is saying hitboxes all behave the same, so its still wrong.

Spoiler: Combos Don't Exist

This game has no combos. You can string together moves, sure, but it isn`t like other fighting games, or other games at all and I don`t understand the comparison. No other game has the freedom of movement that 64 does, even with 3D.

>>>>>No other game has the freedom of movement that 64 does, even with 3D.

WAT

Spoiler: Samus' Up B Time Travels

Yes. I did. And if you listen to the sounds, and or you can see it, the upB`s invincibility frame allows for instant blocking or even cancelling of hits that have already connected. Compared to the other moves inability to do this, I referred to it yes as 'turning back time'. See how if you take what I say and don`t purposefully take it out of context, it ends up being correct. Again, feel free to apologize for the cognitive dissonance betwixt "Cobr and Steve know what they are talking about," as you all keep stating, and the apparent fact that you know nothing about the game past simply hitting the buttons.

This is wrong. Samus just has 3 frames of invincibility in the beginning of the up-b. (11 frames in japanese version). Even if studstill was right about this, he would be contradicting his belief on hitbox interaction.

http://smashboards.com/threads/tournament-rules-super-smash-bros-64.359825/#post-16986194

 

[Herbert Von Karajan]

Re: terminology. I don`t know really how to resolve this. I feel like "the terminology that everyone in the community uses" is literally that, just terminology the community uses. Clanking/priority I feel are not terms that apply to SSB64, they have been puled in from other video games. Using "HOP" instead of "JUMP" is just ****ing stupid, so NO, I will not stop saying:
"half-jump" (C button < 3 frames)
"fixed height jump" (C Button)
"maximum jump" and "variable height jump" (stick jumping)
BECAUSE THAT`S ACCURATE AND HOP SOUNDS REALLY DUMB. Who doesn`t understand what a half-jump is?

(1) From now on, you should only refer to the priority definition that I gave in this post:

definition

Because thats what every other person means when they talk about priority.

(2) "Half jump" is dumb because (A) Half the height of what? the maximum jump? or the fixed height jump? AMBIGUITY => NOT ACCURATE (B) It probably doesnt even go half the height

(3) "fixed height jump" (C Button) is dumb because you can change the height depending on your horizontal velocity. If you argue that there are like, only 4 heights you can get from that, therefore it is still fixed height, then you are still ambiguous because a stick jump has a fixed number N of DISCRETE heights (standing still its < 128 fixed heights)

 

[NovaSmash]

Cool, making a thread to bash someone you don't agree with, what a douchebag.

 

[Studstill]

(1) From now on, you should only refer to the priority definition that I gave in this post:



Because thats what every other person means when they talk about priority.

(2) "Half jump" is dumb because (A) Half the height of what? the maximum jump? or the fixed height jump? AMBIGUITY => NOT ACCURATE (B) It probably doesnt even go half the height

(3) "fixed height jump" (C Button) is dumb because you can change the height depending on your horizontal velocity. If you argue that there are like, only 4 heights you can get from that, therefore it is still fixed height, then you are still ambiguous because a stick jump has a fixed number N of DISCRETE heights (standing still its < 128 fixed heights)

I disagree that this changes the "height" even though it does. Think of your jump height at maximum, straight up. Yes, if you jump non-straight up you will not go as "high" but you still ahve the same jump "length" i.e. it`s just a semicirle, of equal radius for different jump locations, there is just the decision on how much of that jump "length" is devoted to vertical movement or horizontally.
This is not accounting for char momentum, assuming standstill jumping for simplicity`s sake.

Oh lol, I didn`t even realize. Hilarious, the social thread has been reclaimed! Thanks steve, although the title is perfect, I wouldn`t say you all are being cognitively dissonant. Oh you meant me? LOL. Get some homie, I hope we figure it out. Thanks agin for the central location.

I`ll have to learn how to use spoilers or whatever....hrmm.

 

[Sangoku]

The problem is even standing, a >3 frames c-jump isn't twice as high as a =<3 frame c-jump (for example Yoshi's =<3 frame c-jump is more than a half >3 frames c-jump, whereas Fox's =<3 frame c-jump is less than a half >3 frames c-jump).

Edit: before learning spoilers I'd suggest you learn to edit, by clicking on "Edit" (like I just did).

By the way, this thread is kind of inappropriate, do you feel insulted by its existence Studstill? If so I'll lock it.

 

[Shears]

Question about momentum. The game does have momentum right? For example, on Hyrule if you get hit inside the tent and tech, the character will stop and then keep going a bit depending on the knockback (velocity) of the character being hit. With all characters having weight, you have mass*velocity which creates momentum as seen by the change in slide a character gets when teching. Am I wrong on this and the determination is based on something that seems similar to momentum or is it momentum? I'm not arguing for momentum in the way studstill used it or against it, just seeing the word made me curious if it does exist in the game, albeit in a setting that is independent of hurtbox-hitbox interaction.

If the thread gets locked I'll move this to the ask a question thread.

 

[Sangoku]

Just realized that momentum is quantité de mouvement. After all these years of reading that word, I had come to the conclusion it meant élan.

Alright, that will close the debate. Here are the new names:
-what was formerly known as a short hop shall now be called a LoEt3FCJ
-what was formerly known as a full hop shall now be called a Mt3FCJ

 

[Herbert Von Karajan]

By the way, this thread is kind of inappropriate, do you feel insulted by its existence Studstill? If so I'll lock it.

Removed the insults;

3 pages of the social thread is just arguments with studstill, so i figure we can pop the little bubble he lives in over here instead.

 

[Sangoku]

Alright, I'm cool with this. Just the insults seemed off.

 

[Madao]

This is why I give up lol... Too much stubborness.

I'll throw out one thing though. You guys should use better terms. Priority is ambiguous and the term could cause a missunderstanding.

Question about momentum. The game does have momentum right? For example, on Hyrule if you get hit inside the tent and tech, the character will stop and then keep going a bit depending on the knockback (velocity) of the character being hit. With all characters having weight, you have mass*velocity which creates momentum as seen by the change in slide a character gets when teching. Am I wrong on this and the determination is based on something that seems similar to momentum or is it momentum? I'm not arguing for momentum in the way studstill used it or against it, just seeing the word made me curious if it does exist in the game, albeit in a setting that is independent of hurtbox-hitbox interaction.

If the thread gets locked I'll move this to the ask a question thread.

I'm not sure I 100% what you mean, but weight just effects initial knockback. I believe this momentum you are refering to is the fact that you continue to move a bit while teching. It sounds like while teching, the knockback velocity doesn't automatically go to 0, but gets reduced. I know that when you bounce off objects the angle changes and the velocity is reduced by some %, i forgot the exact number.

 

[Sangoku]

Nothing ambiguous with LoEt3FCJ and Mt3FCJ, so I expect you guys will follow me in using these terms.

 

[Herbert Von Karajan]

This is why I give up lol... Too much stubborness.

I'll throw out one thing though. You guys should use better terms. Priority is ambiguous and the term could cause a missunderstanding.

http://smashboards.com/threads/soci...d-to-talk-about.216422/page-735#post-16840099

 

[mixa]

well, as you might be aware, americans are crazy about their acronyms, so unless you find a way to pronounce LoEt3FCJ and Mt3FCJ, it's not gonna be adopted.

too bad, i say

 

[Cobrevolution]

I disagree that this changes the "height" even though it does.

-_-

stationary jumps are the highest, and each walking speed has a different height, coupled with each different height from the distance the stick is pressed

a slanted c jump from pika will not allow him to get from the bottom right of hyrule to the middle, but a vertical c jump will. a slanted stick jump will let him get out, though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqIrZRA1XDs

 

[Madao]

http://smashboards.com/threads/soci...d-to-talk-about.216422/page-735#post-16840099

I don't think 1 word should describe multiple things. It would be better to have 1 specific word for each thing. One thing is hitbox location offset + hitbox size, and the other, I forgot the official term for it, but it decides what happens when 2 hitboxes colide. The game itself has more than 1 variable for determining what you guys call priority. That's my reasoning anyway.

I'm not here to take anyone's sides on this argument. I already know what you guys mean by priority, although no one here has a complete list of data for the attacks. Maybe someday, I should complete the list myself.

 

[Shears]

Well that would be momentum. A force is applied to the character, this creates momentum which means different velocities depending on character weights because the weight of the character is inversely proportional to velocity in momentum. The airspace applies a counter force (friction basically) that slows the character and allows them to get back to the stage. Teching is the application of a much stronger force that reduces the momentum significantly, but if the momentum is very high, the slide is more noticeable. Seeing that they can't program infinity into the game, they cut corners and do the best job they can with adding pseudo momentum into the game. In these momentum states the character is uncontrollable until momentum reaches 0 (or some value in the game) to which they are then free of momentum and can move like they do normally. I believe momentum only exists in tumble states, or momentum states. I could be wrong, but my quick observation suggests it functions similar to this, its how they determine trajectory and distance of attacks.

 

[The Star King]

On Skype cobr and studstill were arguing about Kirby or something idk. studstill said Kirby lacked strong moves, and I said that Kirby's FSmash is one of the strongest in the game. He was like nope most of stronger, and I was like no way and listed a bunch I thought were stronger. bloodpeach then said that Kirby's was second strongest at 100%. so yeah.

I was wrong about Link's though, his FSmash was stronger than Kirby's when I didn't think it would be, so I'll give him that. I guess it's because Kirby's has a much better trajectory for killing people off the side since Link's tends to hit them towards the corners -> longer knockback distance needed for the KO (think Melee DI), so that's why Kirby's *seemed* stronger to me.

I see you lurking BATTLECOW.

 

[Madao]

Well that would be momentum. A force is applied to the character, this creates momentum which means different velocities depending on character weights because the weight of the character is inversely proportional to velocity in momentum. The airspace applies a counter force (friction basically) that slows the character and allows them to get back to the stage. Teching is the application of a much stronger force that reduces the momentum significantly, but if the momentum is very high, the slide is more noticeable. Seeing that they can't program infinity into the game, they cut corners and do the best job they can with adding pseudo momentum into the game. In these momentum states the character is uncontrollable until momentum reaches 0 (or some value in the game) to which they are then free of momentum and can move like they do normally. I believe momentum only exists in tumble states, or momentum states. I could be wrong, but my quick observation suggests it functions similar to this, its how they determine trajectory and distance of attacks.

It's a shame my controller broke. It's one of the main reasons I don't play as much and hardly ever test new things now. It's way harder to debug when I have to use keyboard lol. I wish I debugged teching more. The closest thing related to what you're talking about that I tested was ground spiking.
Are you talking about the time period where you can move in the air during knockback? It sounds like you're refering to when hitstun = 0, but knockback velocity > 0.

On Skype cobr and studstill were arguing about Kirby or something idk. studstill said Kirby lacked strong moves, and I said that Kirby's FSmash is one of the strongest in the game. He was like nope most of stronger, and I was like no way and listed a bunch I thought were stronger. bloodpeach then said that Kirby's was second strongest at 100%. so yeah.

I was wrong about Link's though, his FSmash was stronger than Kirby's when I didn't think it would be, so I'll give him that. I guess it's because Kirby's has a much better trajectory for killing people off the side since Link's tends to hit them towards the corners -> longer knockback distance needed for the KO (think Melee DI), so that's why Kirby's *seemed* stronger to me.

Since knockback is somewhat complicated, there are a lot of factors. Some moves are stronger are early percentages and vice versa. I don't see why people would argue this kind of stuff, when they can just check the nearly complete list of knockback data for moves.

 

[The Star King]

yeah I know. I believe Kirby's fsmash was down there at 0% (AKA relatively low base knockback). but not really what we were talking about since we were talking about KO moves, and Kirby's fsmash had one of the highest knockback scaling, was the point. so it's usually one of the strongest at relevant KO %s.

 

[Studstill]

On Skype cobr and studstill were arguing about Kirby or something idk. studstill said Kirby lacked strong moves, and I said that Kirby's FSmash is one of the strongest in the game. He was like nope most of stronger, and I was like no way and listed a bunch I thought were stronger. bloodpeach then said that Kirby's was second strongest at 100%. so yeah.

I was wrong about Link's though, his FSmash was stronger than Kirby's when I didn't think it would be, so I'll give him that. I guess it's because Kirby's has a much better trajectory for killing people off the side since Link's tends to hit them towards the corners -> longer knockback distance needed for the KO (think Melee DI), so that's why Kirby's *seemed* stronger to me.

I see you lurking BATTLECOW.

IIRC It was along the lines that I think EVERYONE just ignores the downsides to Kirby. Lightness, difficult to incorporate B moves, and what y`all are referring to:
(I think I said)
"Kirby doesn`t have any kill shots." Meaning DK/Falcon Punch, Samus/yoshi back air, rest, Luigi UpB etc.
SK did respond like he said, and I think I was trying to say that FSmash doesn`t count because it`s a smash attack, and I was referring to the like aerials or non-smash, etc. The main point of that convo was just me arguing that Kirby`s downsides are really only apparent at high levels of play and most of the half-good crowd just thinks it`s literally repeating uptilt, which rankles me.

 

[Shears]

It's a shame my controller broke. It's one of the main reasons I don't play as much and hardly ever test new things now. It's way harder to debug when I have to use keyboard lol. I wish I debugged teching more. The closest thing related to what you're talking about that I tested was ground spiking.
Are you talking about the time period where you can move in the air during knockback? It sounds like you're refering to when hitstun = 0, but knockback velocity > 0.

What I'm talking about is when you get hit under the tent in Hyrule, you tech the bounce at the ledge and at high damage you stop for a second and then like roll glide off the stage uncontrollably but still remain close enough to the stage to recover because of the tech. Why does this happen?

I'm pretty sure there is pseudo momentum in the game and that is why it happens. It wouldn't make sense to program a million different exceptions when you could just program simple physics and treat teching as a force counter to this momentum where it is equal to say 90% of the characters momentum, and so at higher percent the 10% left over is more noticeable as it requires the air friction to slow the character down the rest of the way. Instead of having some crazy advanced formulas for every move and every character, it would be easier to program momentum and have knockback determined by a power value of the move, scaled by the damage percent of the character and then divided by the characters weight to determine velocity, which applied into a while loop with decrements of constant air friction, causes it to reach a knockback distance that we are familiar with. Until this loop completes, the users control over the characters movement is disabled since they are flagged in this "momentum" state. The same function could control all knockback and trajectories and teching, and would explain the event I mentioned above. They don't program every single individual thing, they create functions and design an "engine" that takes inputs and delivers outputs based on constraints and formulas they designed, one of which I believe is based off momentum, hence the significance in character weight on knockback.

The numbers I used were hypothetical. They are not to be taken literally, instead used to exemplify the idea.

 

[Studstill]

Alright, I'm cool with this. Just the insults seemed off.

It seems there is some desire to put me into a box with the rest of the crazies over the years, I don`t really get where it comes from, but I`m 29 and pretty secure emotionally. I can handle insults, as long as I understand the intent is not to hurt me or be an asshole, i.e. I get Karajan, and we chat/quasi-friends on skype. To be clear:
I appreciate your concern Sangoku, good moderator instincts, but any possible insult to me is outweighed by the fact that we have an engaging discussion of the game mechanics going. I don`t think the forum environment is great for final static display of knowledge, but it is definitely good at locking said knowledge down among various contributors. So much has been done by a few, but it is scattered and largely unappreciated, IMO.

 

[The Star King]

Cognitive Dissonance

I think I was trying to say that FSmash doesn`t count because it`s a smash attack, and I was referring to the like aerials or non-smash, etc.

lol wow

The main point of that convo was just me arguing that Kirby`s downsides are really only apparent at high levels of play and most of the half-good crowd just thinks it`s literally repeating uptilt, which rankles me.

Yeah the main point is between you and cobr bro

 

[Madao]

yeah I know. I believe Kirby's fsmash was down there at 0% (AKA relatively low base knockback). but not really what we were talking about since we were talking about KO moves, and Kirby's fsmash had one of the highest knockback scaling, was the point. so it's usually one of the strongest at relevant KO %s.

Well I don't know the full extent of the argument, but I think my point still remains valid. Ness can KO with the bat at lower percentages than most fsmash iirc, but at higher %'s it no longer has that advantage over other fsmash attacks. Even the stage, coordinates, and angle matter.
My point is that all the important data has been provided already.In 1 minute, you could compare at least 3 moves, by using a calculator.

What I'm talking about is when you get hit under the tent in Hyrule, you tech the bounce at the ledge and at high damage you stop for a second and then like roll glide off the stage uncontrollably but still remain close enough to the stage to recover because of the tech. Why does this happen?

I'm pretty sure there is pseudo momentum in the game and that is why it happens. It wouldn't make sense to program a million different exceptions when you could just program simple physics and treat teching as a force counter to this momentum where it is equal to say 90% of the characters momentum, and so higher percent the 10% left over is more noticeable as it requires the air friction to slow the character down the rest of the way. Instead of having some crazy advanced formulas for every move and every character, it would be easier to program momentum and have knockback determined by a power value of the move, scaled by the damage percent of the character and then divided by the characters weight to determine velocity, which applied into a while loop with decrements of constant air friction, causes it to reach a knockback distance that we are familiar with. Until this loop completes, the users control over the characters movement is disabled since they are flagged in this "momentum" state. The same function could control all knockback and trajectories and teching, and would explain the event I mentioned above. They don't program every single individual thing, they create functions and design an "engine" that takes inputs and delivers outputs based on constraints and formulas they designed, one of which I believe is based off momentum, hence the significance in character weight on knockback.

Alright now, I get what you're saying. I could never figure that one out either. Not that it was too hard, but I was busy trying to find the complex angle formula for when you bounce off a wall or ground during knockback. Maybe if I find a way to deal with this controller issue I can try to figure it out. Reverse engineering is fun.
Having a cheat engine table is very helpful :D .

 

[Studstill]

Right. Sk, man, I don`t think we`ve talked, formally:
Thanks for all the info/work/research you`ve done over the years. I`m working hard to assemble and combine this data so that an actual, technical, "guide" to the game can be made. Let me know if you are interested in continuing to generate stuff, or if there is a central location for all you`ve discovered.
Madao, man, you`re a treasure to this community and I can`t say thank you enough for all that you`ve done. We at the site would be happy to mail you a new controller, do you mean OG 64?

 

[Shears]

Yeah I think its something like this:

Player.determineKnockback(Player2.attack);

CONST double AIRFRICTION=Y;

Player.blockMovement();
while (Player.momentumn.velocity>X) {
Player.momentum.velocity=Player.momentum.velocity-AIRFRICTION-Player.getTech().velocity;
}
Player.unblockMovement();
while (Player.momentumn.velocity>X) {
Player.momentum.velocity=Player.momentum.velocity-AIRFRICTION-Player.getTech().velocity;
}

I'm just guessing but it would explain those events and knockback and be simple from a programming standpoint and achieve the feeling of in game physics.

Obviously this is pseudo code.

 

[Madao]

Lol they use mostly floats, although this angle stuff was ridiculous. For sin and cos, they used some crazy formula. I attempted but couldn't fully figure it out, since it kept doing weird stuff. I need to find a way to print out asm instructions instead of me manually writing them down. I feel like a noob now lol.

I already figured out the deceleration for knockback. Which is something like 1.7 * sin(angle) for y and 1.7 * cos(angle) for x. The part I don't get is when you colide with the ground or wall.

Madao, man, you`re a treasure to this community and I can`t say thank you enough for all that you`ve done. We at the site would be happy to mail you a new controller, do you mean OG 64?

Lol thanks. I appreciate the offer. I do have n64 controllers, but they are in bad condition. I actually prefer pc controllers since I play on emulator. Since I actually set my emulator up right, I get to enjoy it a lot. I used a very unconventional controller, and they don't even make em anymore, so I don't know if I want to spend 46$ on a controller that isn't durable. I just loved the button layout and it was big. I can't stand small controllers cuz my hands are big.

What's this input issue people talk about with emulators?

 

[Cobrevolution]

you don't need KILLSHOTS when you are Kirby, pika, or fox. Gimps are where it's at.

 

[Shears]

So Y would be 1.7 * sin(angle) which would equal AIRFRICTION in my pseudo code for the y-coordinates, and same thing except use cos for the x-coordinate. Figuring out the tech deceleration is probably something involving the angle hitting the wall or ground, so sin(angle)*Player.momentum*Z where Z is the coefficient to determine how much of the momentum (or knockback) should be reduced, and it would be the momentum at the time of contact, not the initial value.

 

[Studstill]

(1) From now on, you should only refer to the priority definition that I gave in this post:



Because thats what every other person means when they talk about priority.

KARAJAN. "Priority" has always been a sloppy way to refer to game mechanics, it`s a simplification and I abhor simplifying especially when it leads to inaccuracy. It`s lazy and unnecessary. As I understand it:
Priority = grouping moves into classes or types, for the purpose of saying X move beats X move everytime, or in general. It refers to move v move not hitbox v hitbox.
That does not exist in SSB64.
Here`s a link to some SF guys talking about it, and a quote in there from one of them I`ll highlight. I know this is about another game, but as I`m trying to prove a negative, so #allowed.
http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/97804/priority-in-fighting-games
"Short answer: no.

Saying something has good priority is just a simple way of saying its got a good hitbox or quick startup."

 

[Madao]

So Y would be 1.7 * sin(angle) which would equal AIRFRICTION in my pseudo code for the y-coordinates, and same thing except use cos for the x-coordinate. Figuring out the tech deceleration is probably something involving the angle hitting the wall or ground, so sin(angle)*Player.momentum*Z where Z is the coefficient to determine how much of the momentum (or knockback) should be reduced, and it would be the momentum at the time of contact, not the initial value.

Yes what I call deceleration, you called AIRFRICTION. I wish I was good with math formulas, I'd probably be able to figure out the formula without having to read through the giant mess of likely unoptimized MIPS assembly code.

I know that when you hit the ground after being spiked, the knockback velocity is multiplied by 0.8 iirc. It's so nice to use savestates with a debugger.

Lol for ground spiking formula stuff, I just used fixed numbers since there aren't many spikes in the game xD.

 

[Shears]

You have the MIPS assembly code for the game?!?! Can I get that? All questions about the games mechanics will be answered. Give me a little bit guys and then you can lock that silly ask a question thread.

 

[Studstill]

Just realized that momentum is quantité de mouvement. After all these years of reading that word, I had come to the conclusion it meant élan.

Alright, that will close the debate. Here are the new names:
-what was formerly known as a short hop shall now be called a LoEt3FCJ
-what was formerly known as a full hop shall now be called a Mt3FCJ

I agree but propose LT4FCJ and MT3FCJ.
I suppose I`m just weirded out by calling something defined by the game like "rolling" or "breakfalling" some **** you just made up. It seems rude, and weird. Also "teching" implies some like technique which implies skill, in fact, most of my problems with the community are centered around this obsession with "the moves" or "teching" when that stuff is pretty irrelevant in the context of how movement affects the game.
Also, can we get an appropriate poll on the top of this, I like the anonymity of those. KARAJAN: the 3rd def of combo is the classical one, and what I`m referring to with doesn`t exist.
Maybe:
As a way to describe combat interactions between two characters, the word "priority" is:
1. Inaccurate, sloppy, and/or plain incorrect.
2. Correct.
A combo in SSB64 is:
1. A series of moves that all connect, without your opponent having access to a recovery frame.
2. A series of moves that all connect, without your opponent striking you.
3. A pre-made set of button inputs that causes the character to do a "guaranteed hit" series of moves.
Hyrule should:
1. Not be banned.
2. Be banned.

Don`t underestimate the magician!

You have the MIPS assembly code for the game?!?! Can I get that? All questions about the games mechanics will be answered. Give me a little bit guys and then you can lock that silly ask a question thread.

What's this input issue people talk about with emulators?

SuPeRbOoMfAn could better answer this than me. i SuMmOn SuPeRbOoMfAn!

 

[Madao]

You have the MIPS assembly code for the game?!?! Can I get that? All questions about the games mechanics will be answered. Give me a little bit guys and then you can lock that silly ask a question thread.

Well, some of the formulas you could see in the actual rom, but idk about all of them. The game uses compression, so you won't be able to find hitbox data in the rom itself without decompressing it, same with most of the character physics.

Basically with any emulator with proper debugging features, you can set breakpoints and step through instructions. Nemu64 has the best one afaik, although it's very outdated. If you do use Nemu64, be sure to use a different gfx plugin!

If you already know the location of the code in the actual rom, then use a MIPS disassembler like LemASM to display MIPS assembly of the rom. I honestly just prefer using Nemu, because you can see the values of the registers and any memory addresses. This stuff takes a lot of time to analyze, unless you have lots of experience and use hotkeys.

Some things are really complex like the jumping formula for Mario, Luigi, & CF's Up B's as well as Ness and Yoshi's mid air jump. I honestly just gave up on those lol. Just to find part of the formula for CF's Up B, I had to step through thousands of instructions. Hotkeys ftw! There may be a better way for me to find that stuff though.

 

[tehz]

Dear Jesus Madao, I get exhausted reading through like 20 instructions. I second the nemu recommendation though. Nemu + Glide64 seems to work really well for me, although I can't figure out how to turn-off glide's backspace hotkey for graphic filters.

I think the term "tech" comes from fighting games?

 

[Madao]

Dear Jesus Madao, I get exhausted reading through like 20 instructions. I second the nemu recommendation though. Nemu + Glide64 seems to work really well for me, although I can't figure out how to turn-off glide's backspace hotkey for graphic filters.

Rofl, I didn't mean that I had to read through thousands of lines, although that formula for angle change on collision of walls and ground is probably > 100 lines. I just had to step through thousands because Idk how to set a breakpoint on DMA reads and writes. I dont think nemu supports those kind of breakpoints, although I was able to set a read breakpoint on the crc. I used the COUNT register's value as a reference to know exactly how many times I had to step through instructions if you're curious about that. Although savestates messed up the numbers a bit, so I set the hotkey to do a little less than the number calculated, then manually did the rest.

 

[Herbert Von Karajan]

Priority = grouping moves into classes or types, for the purpose of saying X move beats X move everytime, or in general. It refers to move v move not hitbox v hitbox.

OK so your claim is that this priority does not exist?

(1) Fox Laser goes through some other moves "every time"

Spoiler: Other examples

(2) Yoshi Parry beats virtually everything everytime (parry is a move, like you said we arent talking about hitboxes)
(3) Essentially any move that has a hitbox that comes out faster than another move has "priority" for the "in general" sense that you have as part of your definition.

Q.E.D

Priority exists with Your definition
Priority exists with My definition

Do you still think it does not exist? If so, tell me why example (1) is not an example of priority with your definition. And remember you must actually show me what part of your definition excludes my use of fox laser as an example.

 

[Fireblaster]

.

Priority = grouping moves into classes or types, for the purpose of saying X move beats X move everytime, or in general.
That does not exist in SSB64.

Yes it does, several people and I have given several examples of this happening and you keep ignoring it.

Fully Charged Samus Shot > Fireball
Falcon's Fsmash will always plow through any fireballs
Samus's uair against yoshi eggs will always get samus hit while hitting the egg with nair/bair/dair will always let samus plow through the egg unharmed

Yes, in most scenarios in this game, what determines who gets hit is actually which hitbox is more disjointed and who has better reach/timing. But in the few scenarios that it does happen, priority exists in ssb64.

 

[mixa]

priority exists. example: pink samus has higher priority

black samus is only good in the japanese version

orange samus is only good if the player who's playing her is a salty samus main

 

[sman865]

orange samus is only good if the player who's playing her is a salty samus main

Or Kabal. That guy kills it.