Code votes

[The Cape]

In the interest of the back room reformation I have the entire current change list posted here (changed as we make decisions). I also will post my personal opinions on it in the second post. This is to determine as a whole what we as the entire backroom feel is needed for the project as we know that some of these changes need tweaks or are superfluous.

Please read over the change list and post your opinions on changes and such.

Alpha Changes: Beta 4.1:
Hitbox Changes:
-Charizard fair (Hitbox 4 no flinch) -> KBG176 from 0, BKB 10 from 0
-Zelda UpSmash Final Hit, BKB to 40 from 20
-Lucas Bair Final hexagon hitbox angle changed from 361 (special 20 degrees) to 280 degrees
-Ivysaur Bullet Seed (both hitboxes) KBG 60 from 40, BKB 15 from 10

Frame Speed:
-Char Uair frame 18, 1.75x
-Char Dair frame 0, 1.5x, frame 18, 1x, frame 20, 1.5x
-Char Glide Start animation2x
-Lucas Double Jump 1.25x (Starts second frame to remove "Super Zap Jump")
-Lucas now has 35% ALR
-Lucas U-smash 1.15x (Comes out 24 instead of 28, ends 85 instead of 98)
-Lucas Dash attack 1.35x
-Lucas PK Fire 1.75x until frame 21, then 1x (PK Fire comes out on 12 instead of 21, same projectile speed / cooldown)
-Removed ROB downsmash nerf
-Got rid of pika dthrow nerf until the knockback can be adjusted
-Lowered Ivy Razor Leaf from 1.5x to 1.25x

Physics Changes:
-Lucas Down Gravity 1.05 from 1.00
-Lucas Full Gravity 1.025 from 1.00
-Lucas Fast-fall 1.3 from 1.2
-Lucas SH and FH 1.025 from 1.00

Code Changes:
-Added New Glide Code
-Online Handicap Disable v1.0 (YOU MUST SET YOUR HANDICAPS TO BE IDENTICAL OR DESYNC)
-Texture Hack Support (File replacement and disable custom stages)
-Reverted to old CSS yet again till we can make this one work :(


Beta 4.0 Official Total Changelist
[B][U][CENTER]Brawl+ Plussery Official Set 4.0 Codes in effect:
[/CENTER][/U][/B] - Hitstun changed from Brawl Default 0.48 to 0.4865
 - Aerial Lag Reduction (ALR)
	-Most characters reduced to 50%
	-Captain Falcon reduced to 40%
	-Ivysaur reduced to 30%
	-Link reduced to 35%
 - Characters individual Short Hop, Full Hop, Fast–Fall, Down Gravity and Normal Gravity have been optimized (See chart below)
 - Characters retain momentum when performing a running jump (see chart below)
 - Individual Move Knockback, Knockback Growth, Damage, Damage Type, and Launch angle have been modified (see below)
 - Individual move frame speeds have been modified (see chart below)
 - Brawls teching system changed from distance to frame window: Tech window = 15 frames
 - Handicap no longer gives handicap, the value/10 equals your buffer frame window
 - Lagless Ledges (Constant 40800000)
 - Dash Dancing window has been improved
 - You can now Cancel a dash with a crouch
 - You can now shield during a dash dance
 - Shieldstun follows New Stun=(10*OLDSTUN+20)/5
 - Pokémon Trainer has Infinite Stamina and Pokemon no longer swap on death
 - Hold Shield to Swap Pokemon after death
 - Hitlag Modifier: NewHitLag=.7*OldHitlag
 - Electric Hitlag set to 1.0
 - Techrolls sped up 1.3x
 - No Autosweetspot Ledges during up B's
 - No Stale Moves
 - No Random Tripping
 - No C-Stick Fastfalls
 - Reversed levels (i.e. stage hazards / changes have been removed): 
		-Pokémon Stadium 2
		-Warioware
 - Luigi's mansion is now loaded without the mansion
 - Triple Jump Glitch is fixed
 - 2 Frame Powershield window instead of Brawls default of 4
 - Default Settings now set to 4 stock, team attack on, 8min
 - Nametags are now saved in replays
 - Infinite length replays
 - Custom Character Select Screen


[U]-Hitbox Code v1.1(BKB = Base Knockback, KBG=Knockback Gain)
[/U]	-Falcon: Reversable Knee
	-Falcon Raptor boost BKB set to 86, KBG set to 43
	-Jiggs: Rest BKB@118 from 100, Dmg Increased to 25, KBG to 50, 45 angle, fire
	-Sheik Ftilt: KBG@21 BKB@63 base (Orig: KBG@100 BKB: 20)
	-Sheik Fair BKB 0 from 0, KBG 135 from 108
	-Links Up+B First hitbox boosted BKB from 72 to 85
	-Link Up+B Semi spike angle changed from 269 to 16 for 2nd and 3rd hitbox and 4th hitbox
	-Link Dtilt will now always spike at 64 BKB from 90
	-Link Fsmash angle at 25 from 361
	-Samus Fsmash now provides KBG@90 and BKB@56  from  KBG@100 BKB@20
	-Samus nair (first hit), BKB to 22 from 10, KBG to 120 from 80
	-Samus Super missile – BKB 40 from 40, KBG 80 from 65, DMG 15 from 10, angle 40 from 55
	-Samus Chargeshot KBG 70 from 56, BKB 32 from 31
	-MK Downsmash both hitboxes KBG changed to 80 from 93, BKB changed to 30 from 40
	-MK Shuttle Loop BKB 55 and KBG 100, from 90 and 60
	-MK Fair outer hitbox on 1st and 2nd swipe now does nothing 
	-Snake third jab BKB 45 and KBG 95, original growth 115, original base 60
	-Bowser Fsmash final hitbox BKB 50 and KBG 90 and fire, original growth 81, BKB 22
	-Bowser Bair angle decreased to 20 from 35
	-Squirtle Utilt BKB increased to 40 from 31 
	-Lucario utilt BKB increased to 50 from 43
	-ROB utilt tweaked slightly to remove an infinite
	-ROB (trap hitbox) fixed to remove infinite
	-Ganon Up B (first hitbox) set to BKB at 50 from 31, Angle 45 from 65

[U]Frame Speed Modification[/U]
	-Grab Release Combos have been removed
	-Ganons jab frame 0: 3.5x, frame 20: .5x, frame 28: 3x
	-Ganondorfs sweetspot fair frame 15 extended 4x till frame 16 when it returns to 1x
	-Ganondorf fair ALR reduced to 40%
	-Ganon's choke is now techable, after hitbox sped up from 1.2x to 1.25x.
	-Bowser Utilt on frame 13, 1.5x faster
	-Bowser Ftilt 1.2x faster
	-Bowser ALR set to 40%
	-Bowser has 50% less lag on up+b landing
	-Bowser Grab Release set to 23 frames.
	-Yoshi exits shield at 2x
	-Charizard ftilt cooldown now 1.75x faster
	-Pika downthrow slowed to 70% 
 	-Zelda Ftilt 1.2x
	-Mario Dtilt speed up 1.33x after hitbox 
	-Mario fair 1.1x faster
	-Sonic Charged B 2x on exit, 2x on floor hit
	-Kirby F smash windsdown 1.2x slower
	-Rob D smash comes out at .65 speed
	-G&W D smash windsdown 1.5x slower
	-G&W Key set to 100% ALR, global ALR reduced to 50%
	-Ike Nair winddown decreased
	-Sped up Lucas Utilt by 1.35x
	-Samus' homing missles after frame 20 is 2x faster
	-Samus' super missles after frame 25 is 2x faster
	-Ivy Dair Winddown 2x faster
	-Ivysaur Razor Leaf after frame 10 is 1.5x faster.
	-MK Downsmash it now at .85x speed
	-Standing tether GRABS (standing ranged grab) have had their end lag sped up:
		- Lucas Standing Grab is now 1.5x faster after hitbox
		- Samus 1.6x wind-down
		- Link 1.5x wind-down
		- Toon Link 1.5x wind-down
		- Lucas 1.5x wind-down 
		- Yoshi 1.5x wind-down
		- Ivysaur 1.2x wind-down

[U]Other:[/U]
	-MK's whorenado now cannot change vertical height due to increased gravity

[U]-Character Specific Momentum Settings
[/U]	Pikachu: 85%
	Lucario: 75%
	Lucas: 120%
	D3: 70%
	MK: 75%
	Sonic: 175%
	ZSS: 110%
	Global 92.5%

[U]-Character Specific Gravity and Jump Power Modifications
[/U]Chara	ID	SH	FH	FF	DGrav	Grav	Filler
Mario	0	0.900	1.025	1.200	1.175	1.050	0
DK	1	0.850	1.000	1.400	1.000	1.000	0
Link	2	1.000	1.025	1.200	1.150	1.000	0
Samus	3	0.900	1.025	1.300	1.175	1.000	0
Yoshi	4	1.050	1.025	1.200	1.175	1.000	0
Kirby	5	1.000	1.000	1.100	1.000	1.000	0
Fox	6	0.900	1.050	1.150	1.200	1.100	0
Pikachu	7	1.000	1.000	1.150	1.000	1.000	0
Luigi	8	0.950	1.000	1.200	1.000	1.000	0
Falcon	9	0.900	1.050	1.150	1.200	1.100	0
Ness	A	1.000	1.000	1.200	1.000	1.000	0
Bowser	B	0.950	0.950	1.200	1.025	0.950	0
Peach	C	0.950	1.025	1.200	1.175	1.050	0
Zelda	D	0.900	1.000	1.200	1.000	1.000	0
Sheik	E	0.950	1.025	1.200	1.150	1.050	0
Clim 	F	0.800	1.050	1.300	1.000	1.000	0
Marth	11	1.000	1.025	1.200	1.175	1.050	0
G&W	12	1.000	1.000	1.100	1.000	1.000	0
Falco	13	0.900	1.050	1.150	1.200	1.100	0
Ganon	14	1.025	1.050	1.100	1.000	1.000	0
Wario	15	1.000	1.000	1.200	1.000	1.000	0
MK	16	0.900	1.000	1.300	1.100	0.950	0
Pit	17	1.000	1.025	1.200	1.000	1.025	0
ZSS	18	0.900	1.000	1.200	1.050	1.000	0
Olimar	19	0.950	1.025	1.200	1.175	1.050	0
Lucas	1A	1.000	1.000	1.200	1.000	1.000	0
Diddy	1B	0.950	1.025	1.200	1.150	1.050	0
Chariz	1D	1.000	1.025	1.200	1.150	0.950	0
Squirt	1E	0.900	1.050	1.300	1.050	1.000	0
Ivysaur	1F	1.025	1.025	1.200	1.050	1.000	0
Dedede	20	1.000	1.025	1.150	0.950	1.000	0
Lucario	21	0.900	1.025	1.200	1.175	1.050	0
Ike	22	1.000	1.050	1.100	1.025	1.025	0
ROB	23	1.000	1.025	1.200	1.150	1.050	0
Jiggs	25	0.950	1.000	1.300	1.000	1.000	0
Toony	29	1.000	1.000	1.300	1.150	1.000	0
Wolf	2C	1.025	1.025	1.200	0.850	1.100	0
Snake	2E	0.950	1.100	1.200	1.175	1.050	0
Sonic	2F	0.950	1.000	1.300	1.250	1.000	0

 

[The Cape]

My opinions:

Overall Keeps:
- Personal grav for chars defined
- Momentum at 92.5%
- Tech window is now 15 frames
- Handicap buffer
- Lagless edges
- Dash dancing window was improved
- Dash cancel
- Sheild during DD
- Sheid stun increase
- Hitlag change (and electric)
- No autosweetspot ledges
- No random tripping
- No C-stick FFs
- Reversed/frozen levels
- Luigi mansion deadlands
- Triple jump glitch fixed
- Default settings
- Name tags in replays
- Infinite replays
- Pokémon Trainer has Infinite Stamina and Pokemon no longer swap on death
- Grab release combos were removed
- Tether grabs were sped up on miss
- Hold Shield to Swap Pokemon after death

Edits to make:
- ALR to 50% overall – Consider 40% overall to at least test
- Tech Rolls sped up to 1.3x – slow em down a bit
- No Stale moves – need damage staling only
- Powersheild window 2 frames – too easy, make it one
Things to add:
- Damage staling
- Meteor Cancelling window

Bowser:
- Bowser Fsmash final hitbox BKB 50 and KBG 90 and fire, original growth 81, BKB 22: might be too strong
- Bair angle decreased to 20 from 35
- ALR set to 40%
- F tilt 1.2x faster
- U tilt has faster cooldown
- 50% less landing lag on up and B
- Bowser grab release at 23 frames

Captain Falcon:
- ALR set to 40%: change it to individual moves that need it (knee)
- Reversable Knee: superfluous, I vote to take it out
- Raptor boost BKB set to 86, KBG set to 43

Charizard:
- Uair frame 18, 1.75x
- Dair frame 0, 1.5x, frame 18, 1x, frame 20, 1.5x
- Glide Start animation2x
- fair (Hitbox 4 no flinch) -> KBG176 from 0, BKB 10 from 0
- F tilt cooldown reduced

Diddy:

Donkey Kong:

Falco:

Fox:

Ganondorf:
- Ganon Up B (first hitbox) set to BKB at 50 from 31, Angle 45 from 65
- Jab sped up
- Fair sweetspot extended
- Fair ALR to 40%
- Choke sped up

Ice Climbers:

Ike:
- Nair has less cooldown

Ivysaur:
- Razor Leaf is sped up 1.25x
- Bullet Seed (both hitboxes) KBG 60 from 40, BKB 15 from 10
- ALR set to 30%: Change it to specific moves and the base back to 50% (bair and fair)
- Ivy dair windsdown faster

Jigglypuff:
- Rest BKB@118 from 100, Dmg Increased to 25, KBG to 50, 45 angle, fire: Too strong?

King Dedede:

Kirby:
- F smash windsdown slower
Link:
- ALR set to 35%: Specific moves (thinking 40% dair and 30% uair)
- Links Up+B First hitbox boosted BKB from 72 to 85
- Link Up+B Semi spike angle changed from 269 to 16 for 2nd and 3rd hitbox and 4th hitbox
- Link Dtilt will now always spike at 64 BKB from 90 (lower BKB)
- Link Fsmash angle at 25 from 361

Lucario:
- utilt BKB increased to 50 from 43
- (Could add in the double speed up and B)
Lucas:
- Double Jump 1.25x (Starts second frame to remove "Super Zap Jump")
- now has 35% ALR
- U-smash 1.15x (Comes out 24 instead of 28, ends 85 instead of 98)
- Dash attack 1.35x
- PK Fire 1.75x until frame 21, then 1x (PK Fire comes out on 12 instead of 21, same projectile speed / cooldown)
- Down Gravity 1.05 from 1.00
- Full Gravity 1.025 from 1.00
- Fast-fall 1.3 from 1.2
- SH and FH 1.025 from 1.00
- Bair Final hexagon hitbox angle changed from 361 (special 20 degrees) to 280 degrees
- U tilt 1.35x

Luigi:

Mario:
- Fair 1.1x faster: I think this is warranted, and Shell has some KB changes for it as well. Mario needs a good solid aerial kill move and this one could be it.
- - D tilt sped up 1.33x after last hitbox: Superfluous, but cool (Can go either way)
Marth:

Metaknight:
- MK Downsmash both hitboxes KBG changed to 80 from 93, BKB changed to 30 from 40
- MK Shuttle Loop BKB 55 and KBG 100, from 90 and 60
-MK Fair outer hitbox on 1st and 2nd swipe now does nothing
- D smash at .85x speed

Mr. Game and Watch:
- Key has 100% ALR
Ness:

Olimar:

Peach:

Pikacku:

Pit:

ROB:
- utilt tweaked slightly to remove an infinite
-ROB (trap hitbox) fixed to remove infinite
- (Fix D smash coming out? Would like to see it come out slower than frame 2)

Samus:
-Samus Fsmash now provides KBG@90 and BKB@56 from KBG@100 BKB@20 (Too strong)
-Samus nair (first hit), BKB to 22 from 10, KBG to 120 from 80
-Samus Super missile – BKB 40 from 40, KBG 80 from 65, DMG 15 from 10, angle 40 from 55
-Samus Chargeshot KBG 70 from 56, BKB 32 from 31 (Too strong)
- missiles came out faster

Sheik:
- Ftilt: KBG@21 BKB@63 base (Orig: KBG@100 BKB: 20)
- Fair BKB 0 from 0, KBG 135 from 108
Snake:
-Snake third jab BKB 45 and KBG 95, original growth 115, original base 60
Sonic:
- Neutral B works faster
Squirtle:
- Squirtle Utilt BKB increased to 40 from 31

Toon Link:

Wario:

Wolf:

Yoshi:
- 2x sheild release
Zelda:
- UpSmash Final Hit, BKB to 40 from 20
- F tilt 1.2x
ZSS:


Add no fall special to:
- Giant Punch DK
- Ike side B on hit
- Lucario up and B
- Ganon Side B (Think Diddy)
- Lucas and Ness PKT1
- Zelda forward B

Bring Back Boozer Dont care

Changes as I play more this weekend.

 

[shanus]

Ill post at the end of the weekend

 

[goodoldganon]

My opinions:

Overall Keeps:
- Personal grav for chars defined
- Momentum at 92.5%
- Tech window is now 15 frames
- Handicap buffer
- Lagless edges
- Dash dancing window was improved
- Dash cancel
- Sheild during DD
- Sheid stun increase
- Hitlag change (and electric)
- No autosweetspot ledges
- No random tripping
- No C-stick FFs
- Reversed/frozen levels
- Luigi mansion deadlands
- Triple jump glitch fixed
- Default settings
- Name tags in replays
- Infinite replays
- Pokémon Trainer has Infinite Stamina and Pokemon no longer swap on death
- Grab release combos were removed
- Tether grabs were sped up on miss
- Hold Shield to Swap Pokemon after death

All of these are good. I see no reason to question them.

Edits to make:
- ALR to 50% overall – Consider 40% overall to at least test
- Tech Rolls sped up to 1.3x – slow em down a bit
- No Stale moves – need damage staling only
- Powersheild window 2 frames – too easy, make it one
Things to add:
- Damage staling
- Meteor Cancelling window

ALR is fine. You should have to consider the lag on your aerials before using them. Not single character has completely unsafe, huge lag aerials as far as I know.

Yes, tech rolling needs to go down in speed

Powershielding is fine on 2 frames.

Damage staling and Meteor cancellings are a must.

Bowser:
- Bowser Fsmash final hitbox BKB 50 and KBG 90 and fire, original growth 81, BKB 22: might be too strong
- Bair angle decreased to 20 from 35
- ALR set to 40%
- F tilt 1.2x faster
- U tilt has faster cooldown
- 50% less landing lag on up and B
- Bowser grab release at 23 frames

All of these are fine. The F-smash is hard to hit with, don't set yourself up to it.

Captain Falcon:
- ALR set to 40%: change it to individual moves that need it (knee)
- Reversable Knee: superfluous, I vote to take it out
- Raptor boost BKB set to 86, KBG set to 43

Reversable Knee was a good fix to the knee. It adds more uses to it and makes it less of a chore to hit with. Many of are perfectly fine with a slight knockback nerf to compensate for it.

Charizard:
- Uair frame 18, 1.75x
- Dair frame 0, 1.5x, frame 18, 1x, frame 20, 1.5x
- Glide Start animation2x
- fair (Hitbox 4 no flinch) -> KBG176 from 0, BKB 10 from 0
- F tilt cooldown reduced

Diddy:

Donkey Kong:

Falco:

Fox:

Ganondorf:
- Ganon Up B (first hitbox) set to BKB at 50 from 31, Angle 45 from 65
- Jab sped up
- Fair sweetspot extended
- Fair ALR to 40%
- Choke sped up

All these are good, but add 'Give Ganon his D-tilt, F-tilt, and Jab options off the Choke'

Ice Climbers:

Ike:
- Nair has less cooldown

Ivysaur:
- Razor Leaf is sped up 1.25x
- Bullet Seed (both hitboxes) KBG 60 from 40, BKB 15 from 10
- ALR set to 30%: Change it to specific moves and the base back to 50% (bair and fair)
- Ivy dair windsdown faster

Jigglypuff:
- Rest BKB@118 from 100, Dmg Increased to 25, KBG to 50, 45 angle, fire: Too strong?

King Dedede:

Kirby:
- F smash windsdown slower
Link:
- ALR set to 35%: Specific moves (thinking 40% dair and 30% uair)
- Links Up+B First hitbox boosted BKB from 72 to 85
- Link Up+B Semi spike angle changed from 269 to 16 for 2nd and 3rd hitbox and 4th hitbox
- Link Dtilt will now always spike at 64 BKB from 90 (lower BKB)
- Link Fsmash angle at 25 from 361

Lucario:
- utilt BKB increased to 50 from 43
- (Could add in the double speed up and B)

We need to discuss the ICs as a group back here.

I'd consider looking into Razor Leaf at 1.2 speed.

Jiggly rest is fine

Lucario needs a little more knockback on the u-tilt

Lucas:
- Double Jump 1.25x (Starts second frame to remove "Super Zap Jump")
- now has 35% ALR
- U-smash 1.15x (Comes out 24 instead of 28, ends 85 instead of 98)
- Dash attack 1.35x
- PK Fire 1.75x until frame 21, then 1x (PK Fire comes out on 12 instead of 21, same projectile speed / cooldown)
- Down Gravity 1.05 from 1.00
- Full Gravity 1.025 from 1.00
- Fast-fall 1.3 from 1.2
- SH and FH 1.025 from 1.00
- Bair Final hexagon hitbox angle changed from 361 (special 20 degrees) to 280 degrees
- U tilt 1.35x

No comment

Luigi:

Mario:
- Fair 1.1x faster: I think this is warranted, and Shell has some KB changes for it as well. Mario needs a good solid aerial kill move and this one could be it.
- - D tilt sped up 1.33x after last hitbox: Superfluous, but cool (Can go either way)

Marth:

Metaknight:
- MK Downsmash both hitboxes KBG changed to 80 from 93, BKB changed to 30 from 40
- MK Shuttle Loop BKB 55 and KBG 100, from 90 and 60
-MK Fair outer hitbox on 1st and 2nd swipe now does nothing
- D smash at .85x speed

Mr. Game and Watch:
- Key has 100% ALR
Ness:

Olimar:

Peach:

Pikacku:

Pit:

ROB:
- utilt tweaked slightly to remove an infinite
-ROB (trap hitbox) fixed to remove infinite
- (Fix D smash coming out? Would like to see it come out slower than frame 2)

Mario doesn't need his D-tilt sped up at all.

Return ROBs D-smash to normal. Annoying? Hell ya! Broken? Not in the least.

Samus:
-Samus Fsmash now provides KBG@90 and BKB@56 from KBG@100 BKB@20 (Too strong)
-Samus nair (first hit), BKB to 22 from 10, KBG to 120 from 80
-Samus Super missile – BKB 40 from 40, KBG 80 from 65, DMG 15 from 10, angle 40 from 55
-Samus Chargeshot KBG 70 from 56, BKB 32 from 31 (Too strong)
- missiles came out faster

I've been playing a lot of Samus recently and she is fine. A slight knockback decrease in the F-smash might be in need, but leave the charge shot alone. Unless you're opponent is garbage you can only hit on the wakeup or if you combo into it from a d-air or perfectly spaced u-tilt, both of which are tough to use on good opponents.

Sheik:
- Ftilt: KBG@21 BKB@63 base (Orig: KBG@100 BKB: 20)
- Fair BKB 0 from 0, KBG 135 from 108
Snake:
-Snake third jab BKB 45 and KBG 95, original growth 115, original base 60
Sonic:
- Neutral B works faster
Squirtle:
- Squirtle Utilt BKB increased to 40 from 31

Toon Link:

Wario:

Wolf:

Yoshi:
- 2x sheild release
Zelda:
- UpSmash Final Hit, BKB to 40 from 20
- F tilt 1.2x
ZSS:

Return Snake's jab to normal. Lower his weight and the percentage of some of his moves instead. In all honesty, he isn't broken. He's being unfairly singled out cause he rocked in vBrawl.

Add no fall special to:
- Giant Punch DK
- Ike side B on hit
- Lucario up and B
- Ganon Side B (Think Diddy)
- Lucas and Ness PKT1

I'd argue Lucas and Ness's PKT1, but the others all sound great so we can try em I guess.

Bring Back Boozer Dont care

Changes as I play more this weekend.

He doesn't need it and I'll do the same.

 

[leafgreen386]

You think you could've made your character specific changes a little easier to read, cape? lol

I disagree on the PT thing being for keeps. Check out the thread by Retro Gamer in the workshop to see what kind of change I'd like to see on this.

As for dropping ALR down to 40% universally... we should at least give this a try. Just because it's "fine" doesn't mean it can't be "better." I've been saying we should try this for a while now.

As for the "superfluous" changes you mention... the very fact that they won't have a huge influence on the character should be reason enough to say that it isn't necessary that we take them out. Especially with something like falcon's knee. The reverse hitbox could be slightly weaker to compensate if we really need to weaken it. Not something I feel should be removed outright, though.

As for making ganon's sideB not go into freefall afterward... why? Really... why?

 

[goodoldganon]

I disagree on the PT thing being for keeps. Check out the thread by Retro Gamer in the workshop to see what kind of change I'd like to see on this.

As for making ganon's sideB not go into freefall afterward... why? Really... why?

Didn't see the thing about PKMN Trainer and I agree with everything in that topic.

A recovery buff? Not needed but I won't argue it.

 

[kupo15]

A recovery buff? Not needed but I won't argue it.

Ya, you better not argue to add it when we have down b resets for both falcon and ganon. (new code btw)

I think momentum should be upped and the reverse knee kept for loss of killing power. Its not superfluous

I also agree to the powershield change. In fact, I already implemented it

 

[shanus]

I'm of the opinion that falcons recovery is already epic awesome and doesn't really need his downB second jump anymore. I partially believe this cuz his warp distance is just SO mammoth that I never get gimped as him unless its against ROB and im already recoverying from below and couldnt use downB again.

Ganon down B up B sounds awesome

Not sure what other people think just my 2 cents and I main falcon haha

 

[The Cape]

This may work:

Peach jab:
0C108048 3F000000
0C118048 3F800000

Sheik jab:
0E108048 3F000000
0E118048 3F800000

Falco jab:
13108048 3F000000
13128048 3F800000

Adds one extra frame of lag to Peach and Sheik jabs and two to Falco's due to the frame data.

Test it and find out? (Will do so myself tonight)


Also, two more things:
MK Uair
16008065 3F000000
16028065 3F800000
16048065 3F666666


Lucario Up and B 2x faster
21000114 40000000

Would like to see these tested again as well.

Lucario up and B is good due to the fact that his recovery does not hit anything and the extra speed may help him not get gimped from it as easily. MK uair is changed mostly for planking purposes.

Also, can we PLEASE add landing lag to MK tornado? It still distorts some matchups badly. Some chars can just hit right through it, some cant beat the move basically at all (except from the top) and its really spammable for that purpose.


Got the MK tornado information if we want to consider it:

MACH TORNADO

minimum time frame breakdown:
1-11 startup
12-58 hitbox out
59-87 cooldown (this is a grounded nado)

maximum time frame breakdown
1-11 startup
12-104 hitbox out

Cooldown: this is interesting. Cooldown will ALWAYS be 29 frames. Landing lag adjusts to this. So if your nado ends in midair and you free fall for 10 frames your landing lag will be 19 frames. The botched up landing is 30 frames.

The really interesting part is the cooldown. Is it possible to increase the total to something more along the lines of 45 frames as it makes the move a bit more punishable?

 

[Revven]

Basically, keep the necessities however, I would like to try Retro Gaming's idea for PT if it is possible (if not, go back to the CSS wild pogeymans and PT being different and get rid of the hold R to autoswap). Just gonna take Cape's post and put my own opinions on the stuff. Maybe we shouldn't even have DD? RyokoYaska had some great points about why it shouldn't be in. Guess you'll have to hear them when he's actually back here.

Things to add:
- Damage staling
- Meteor Cancelling window
- Ledge Teching (needed)
- Modifiable throws

Bowser:
- Bowser Fsmash final hitbox BKB 50 and KBG 90 and fire, original growth 81, BKB 22
- Bair angle decreased to 20 from 35
- ALR set to 40%
- F tilt 1.2x faster
- U tilt has faster cooldown
- 50% less landing lag on up and B
- Bowser grab release at 23 frames

Captain Falcon:
- ALR set to 40%: change it to individual moves that need it (knee)
- Reversable Knee: Remove it, doesn't need it, not necessary at all
- Raptor boost BKB set to 86, KBG set to 43

IMO, we should try to change Falcon a bit so he isn't exactly like Melee Falcon.

Charizard (haven't tried the new changes yet therefore no opinion).

Diddy:

Donkey Kong:

Falco:

Fox:

Change Fox up a bit so it isn't just Dair all dai and Nair.

Ganondorf:
- Ganon Up B (first hitbox) set to BKB at 50 from 31, Angle 45 from 65
- Jab sped up
- Fair sweetspot extended
- Fair ALR to 40%
- Choke sped up

Make choke able to have its old options from before.

Ice Climbers:

Ike:
- Nair has less cooldown

Ivysaur:
- Razor Leaf is sped up 1.25x
- Bullet Seed (both hitboxes) KBG 60 from 40, BKB 15 from 10
- ALR set to 30%: Change it to specific moves and the base back to 50% (bair and fair)
- Ivy dair windsdown faster

Mostly agree with Cape here, not sure on BS change though, have to try it out.

Jigglypuff:
- Rest BKB@118 from 100, Dmg Increased to 25, KBG to 50, 45 angle, fire

I think Jiggs' rest is fine.

King Dedede:

Kirby:
- F smash windsdown slower
Link:
- ALR set to 35%: Specific moves (thinking 40% dair and 30% uair)
- Links Up+B First hitbox boosted BKB from 72 to 85
- Link Up+B Semi spike angle changed from 269 to 16 for 2nd and 3rd hitbox and 4th hitbox
- Link Dtilt will now always spike at 64 BKB from 90 (lower BKB)
- Link Fsmash angle at 25 from 361

Agree with ALR specificness.

Lucario:
- utilt BKB increased to 50 from 43
- (Could add in the double speed up and B)
Lucas:
- Double Jump 1.25x (Starts second frame to remove "Super Zap Jump")
- now has 35% ALR
- U-smash 1.15x (Comes out 24 instead of 28, ends 85 instead of 98)
- Dash attack 1.35x
- PK Fire 1.75x until frame 21, then 1x (PK Fire comes out on 12 instead of 21, same projectile speed / cooldown)
- Down Gravity 1.05 from 1.00
- Full Gravity 1.025 from 1.00
- Fast-fall 1.3 from 1.2
- SH and FH 1.025 from 1.00
- Bair Final hexagon hitbox angle changed from 361 (special 20 degrees) to 280 degrees
- U tilt 1.35x

I'm not so sure if Lucas needs all these changes... about how many of them actually balance him out as a character without making him so good?

Luigi:

Mario: (Don't use Mario, no comment)

Marth:

Metaknight:
- MK Downsmash both hitboxes KBG changed to 80 from 93, BKB changed to 30 from 40
- MK Shuttle Loop BKB 55 and KBG 100, from 90 and 60
-MK Fair outer hitbox on 1st and 2nd swipe now does nothing
- D smash at .85x speed

Add lag to 'nado I suppose, would allow people to punish bad use of it. Add Uair startup lag so he can't plank as good.

Mr. Game and Watch:
- Key has 100% ALR
Ness:

Olimar:

Peach:

Pikacku:

Pit:

ROB:
- utilt tweaked slightly to remove an infinite
-ROB (trap hitbox) fixed to remove infinite
- (Fix D smash coming out? Would like to see it come out slower than frame 2)

Dsmash should remain the way it was in Brawl.

Samus:
-Samus Fsmash now provides KBG@90 and BKB@56 from KBG@100 BKB@20
-Samus nair (first hit), BKB to 22 from 10, KBG to 120 from 80
-Samus Super missile – BKB 40 from 40, KBG 80 from 65, DMG 15 from 10, angle 40 from 55
-Samus Chargeshot KBG 70 from 56, BKB 32 from 31
- missiles came out faster

All this is fine.

Sheik:
- Ftilt: KBG@21 BKB@63 base (Orig: KBG@100 BKB: 20)
- Fair BKB 0 from 0, KBG 135 from 108

Maybe lower the growth some, might be too much. (try 125).

Snake:
-Snake third jab BKB 45 and KBG 95, original growth 115, original base 60

This is unnecessary. You can tap DI out of the first two hits and punish Snake for the third hit. I vote we take it out. If you want to change something, change his Ftilt and Utilt damage so they both don't do ridick amounts of damage.

Sonic:
- Neutral B works faster
Squirtle:
- Squirtle Utilt BKB increased to 40 from 31

Toon Link:

Wario:

Wolf:

Yoshi:
- 2x sheild release
Zelda:
- UpSmash Final Hit, BKB to 40 from 20
- F tilt 1.2x
ZSS:

Yeah, those are my opinions so far. We may need to change hitlag some and I believe the glide code should be put in as well (even though I've yet to try it).

If I play B+ today with someone, I will post my opinion about Zard's changes.

 

[kupo15]

I'm of the opinion that falcons recovery is already epic awesome and doesn't really need his downB second jump anymore. I partially believe this cuz his warp distance is just SO mammoth that I never get gimped as him unless its against ROB and im already recoverying from below and couldnt use downB again.

Ganon down B up B sounds awesome

Not sure what other people think just my 2 cents and I main falcon haha

We need to reduce the ledge rab range anyway.


Falco, no matter what, he still acts like brawl falcon. No point in striping the beauties of falcon because you "don't want him acting like melee falcon." The biased against falcon getting what he deserves is absolutely mindblowing! Maybe if the plussery set didn't use such high hitstun as to not make things so easy for him, you would see differently.

If you don't think the knee fix does too much, then why are you so adamant about removing it? It has situational uses, yes, and not only does everyone else have the ability to reverse attacks, but it adds some options and interesting aspects to the characters game play. If you take away everything that is unique and make the characters interesting, you have a boring game that you can only do things only so many ways and your limited in being able to show off. This is important to have a game where you can vary up your tactics instead of having to rely on the ones that work the most.

 

[The Cape]

Few more to consider:

ZSS, Link, Lucas, Samus tethers speed up, no others
Remove FF on GW key
Less KB on F and D smash for GW
More ALR on turtle for GW
Samus charge blast less damage
ZSS pieces gone
PT training force switch and wild

Fix hitlag to what it was (try my jab fixes) and we can change the hit angle on those if need be as well.

Also, lower sheild stun a bit more? I have been wondering if really low sheild stun is really a bad thing?

 

[The Cape]

For Metaknight tornado, as it still distorts matchups. I have a few ideas for it.

- Increased landing lag (maybe double it)
- Give it a horizontal movement nerf to match the vertical one
- Make it so that it cannot be extended in length

What I personally would like to see is the following:
Make it move half speed, but have its full range of motion and add some more landing lag so it can be punished.

Metaknight himself is fine, but this move is still ridiculously overpowered and beats some characters all by itself.

 

[goodoldganon]

Nerfs to G and W? People would rage, hard. He doesn't need nerfs since he can't combo into the smash attacks.

 

[The Cape]

Oh but he can.

Land bair early into D smash is a combo
Land early nair into D smash is a combo

Also the fact that game and watch is basically a wall of priority means that he needs some nerfs. His smashes kill as low as 90% and have such quick IASA frames that they can be used as an almost wall to keep people away. I was playing him last night and I was this first hand. (as and against)

If we can modify IASA frames we could fix GW smashes without hurting him too much.

 

[The Cape]

Well since we made the Knee better, what about helping out a char that needs it?

Zelda's fair
Hitbox 1:
0D145F22 03169033
145F2203 01690000
FFFFFFFF

Hitbox 2:
0D045005 00169033
145F2203 01690000
FFFFFFFF

Hitbox 3:
0D046005 00169033
04600500 01690000
FFFFFFFF


Zelda's bair

Hitbox 1:
0D146028 03169033
14602803 01690000
FFFFFFFF

Hitbox 2:
0D045005 00169033
145F2203 01690000
FFFFFFFF

Hitbox 3:
0D046005 00169033
04600500 01690000
FFFFFFFF

Thinking of doing a hitbox change like that on Falcon's knee. Anyone else agree that its fair and justified?

This basically entends the time that her kicks will sweetspot.

Try it out.

 

[goodoldganon]

As far as I can tell the Diamond Toe is already reversable. Whatever I need to be writing a paper about it. Ask Kupo, since he discussed this way back when.

 

[The Cape]

Its not about the reversable, its the the sweetspot is nearly impossible to get consistantly and Zelda is not an excellent character, Falcon is.

 

[goodoldganon]

Its not about the reversable, its the the sweetspot is nearly impossible to get consistantly and Zelda is not an excellent character, Falcon is.

I disagree Falcon is excellent per se but it's irrelevant to the discussion. What is Falcon's sweetspot frames? 4 I think but I'm unsure. Zelda's was 2. Ask her mains what they want. Two extra frames to sweetspot with but a nerf to KO power or to keep it as is. My two cents. I'm against a buff to making sweetspots easier if it doesn't come with a nerf in KO power.

 

[kupo15]

Fix hitlag to what it was (try my jab fixes) and we can change the hit angle on those if need be as well.

Also, lower sheild stun a bit more? I have been wondering if really low sheild stun is really a bad thing?

If jabs are the only problem with hitlag, why are you changing the parts that worked thus slowing down the pace of the game? There is a break point in the code for a reason. Use it!

I think slightly less shield stun on weak hits would be good

I disagree Falcon is excellent per se but it's irrelevant to the discussion. What is Falcon's sweetspot frames? 4 I think but I'm unsure. Zelda's was 2. Ask her mains what they want. Two extra frames to sweetspot with but a nerf to KO power or to keep it as is. My two cents. I'm against a buff to making sweetspots easier if it doesn't come with a nerf in KO power.

its 2

 

[The Cape]

Kupo, I didnt change the hitlag and am sorely against it.

 

[Dark Sonic]

I think slightly less shield stun on weak hits would be good

THIS THIS THIS!!. Currently many multihit moves LOCK people in shields. As in, even if you let go of the shield button, your shield stays up for the entire move because you are in shieldstun the entire time. I think this is a problem. If I want to just let go of my shield and take the hit, I should be able to do that instead of just having it wear down on my shield.

 

[kupo15]

Kupo, I didnt change the hitlag and am sorely against it.

Well, whoever did, why did you change the entire hitlag for ALL moves when you could have just targeted jabs using the break point??

 

[goodoldganon]

Well, whoever did, why did you change the entire hitlag for ALL moves when you could have just targeted jabs using the break point??

I guess it didn't occur to them. Not to sound too rude, but if you don't like it then make the code fix yourself.

Falcon's Knee and Zelda's Toe deserve the same frame of sweetspots.

I agree with lowering jab shield stun. Don't see why it wouldn't be possible.

 

[Dark Sonic]

I don't like it. I think most people don't like the increased hitlag actually.

 

[goodoldganon]

I don't like it. I think most people don't like the increased hitlag actually.

I don't think anyone does. I phrased myself poorly. What I should have said is:

I assume who ever made the fix just applied a bandaid fix, without the intention of keeping it permanent. Instead of complaining about it someone should make the fix.

 

[kupo15]

I don't think anyone does. I phrased myself poorly. What I should have said is:

I assume who ever made the fix just applied a bandaid fix, without the intention of keeping it permanent. Instead of complaining about it someone should make the fix.

I hate bandaid fixes and they prove to not work (see: pika dthrow) and furthermore, I didn't know it was changed until I actually looked at the code.

I never had a problem with the hitlag and its not that hard to adjust

 

[goodoldganon]

I repeat I'm sure who ever made the fix had other more important things to do. Schoolwork, their girlfriend, a party. Either way, a dumb argument. If you'd be a doll and do the code for the rest of us I'd love you long time. Because yes, the game is noticeably slower now a days.

 

[shanus]

During the podcast, Almas and SMK mentioned a bunch of people thought hitlag was too low so i raised it from .5 to .7. Clearly people dont like it so we revert to .5 with higher breakpoint. I said this earlier in this thread or the other

 

[CT Chia]

because i never commented on it before, i do not think the zelda fair bair change is justified

i cant keep up with all of these random suggestions. cant we do this in a more organized manner?

 

[Alopex]

I'm the resident Zelda person here, it seems, so I'm just going to quickly chime in.

I've mentioned it to shanus many times that her Fair, Bair, AND Dair are all fine. It's a skill barrier, and a just one. There's no need to make things require less skill to perform when that skill isn't arbitrarily tech-based. Zelda's LK's are all timing skill based and are pulled off very consistently by any dedicated Zelda main. I've even Dair-spiked a Wolf mid-SideB (it was pretty epic).

That's the way it should be. You shouldn't be able to pull off all of a character's tricks just from picking up the controller. If Zelda mains had a problem pulling off her LK's, then that would be a problem worth looking in to. But, as one of those people, I just don't see the necessity.

I want people to be impressed by my skill at landing LK's! I don't want my awesomeness trivialized!

P.S.- You guys are discussing a lot of stuff and I just can't keep up with it all at the moment. It's finals time. My last final is on April 23rd, so I'll be pretty quiet until then. But after that? I'll be here in full force!

 

[The Cape]

Alopex, after today I will also be quiet until around then as training is going to pick up.

Got alot of ideas out there that are worth testing and also I have been speaking to Ryoko about this project alot. No offense to you, but I will take his word on Zelda over anyone else's anyday.

 

[Alopex]

I don't understand why everyone pen0r rides Ryoko like he's the be-all end-all of Zeldas...

It's fine if you'll take his word over mine, I've got no problem with that, but I don't see any evidence that proves his words deserve as much weight as people give it... more weight than my word, sure, but not as much as it receives...

If you're going to take his word for it with that much importance, then you need to ask him WHY. Ask him for his reasonings as to WHY the buff is needed, WHY it should be easier for everyone, WHAT he wants the buff to accomplish, and WHO is the buff targetting. I gave my reasonings here and multiple times, and I always give justifications to my changes and rejections. That's something I don't often see around here. And I'll be dammed if I'll accept a change based off the justification that "Ryoko said so". Even if it was M2K, that wouldn't suffice.

 

[The Cape]

Considering I have been playing Ryoko for five years I know first hand how good he is and how much his knowledge, experience, and opinions matter.

I try to take into consideration what he says and at least look at it from a perspective to understand why he would want a change. Like not being able to DI out of Zelda smashes.

Also, he gives me whys and everything else. We talk on AIM about this stuff a good deal lately.

 

[kupo15]

I'm also questioning the "faith" you have with Ryoko over Alopex. Not only is he new to brawl+ and Alopex has been here for a while, but I didn't like what I saw on the IRC last night. He wants to remove dash dancing, was questioning the Rest buff as well as several other head turning comments.

I also can't keep up with all the suggestions thrown out and it seems like many have no reasons behind them. And people are up in arms about the down b jump resets being "unnecessary" and I see this!?

 

[CT Chia]

i also trust ryoko over others, but that doesnt mean i throw away everyone elses opinions. i personally liked and agreed with everything alopex said here

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=7145875&postcount=31

it doesnt matter if ryoko is more trustworthy (might not be thr word im looking for) but its no reason to put down alopex

 

[kupo15]

Some things to try

Fludd buff
6E006400 12037000
00960012 001E0000
00000000

Kb from 100 to 150
Angle from 55 to 30

And some widened blast zones. From testing, this is really sweet. You need to brush up on your edge guarding game.


Death boundary data
* 065A9000 00000040
* 02F0EF61 0A000000
* 30F0F080 F8000000
* 01F0F0D0 F3000000
* 1CF0F3D0 C3000000
* 21F0F190 E7000000
* 0DF0F190 E7000000
* 14F0EFE1 02000000
* 04F0EE31 1D000000

I tested against mario with a mario dsmash from the center of the stage. Here are the stages I widened and by how much using this method

Stage................... Difference
Final destination.......... 10
Battle field........... 7
Corneria............. 7
Wario Ware............ 12
Yoshi's island.............. 5
Smashville.............. 5
Deadlands............. 10
PS2........... 5

 

[The Cape]

Wario Ware and Corneria at least sound like a good idea (need a bigger Corneria too)

And I would like to try out the Mario FLUDD. Sounds like a good idea. (Squirtle neutral B too?)

 

[kupo15]

Try out the other ones. You would be surprised how much more fun they are to play on when its not as claustrophobic.

 

[The Cape]

Also, we need bigger FD too.