Code votes

[kupo15]

and it seems as if we cant alter that stage so the next best thing is the blast zones. The best of course would be a workable character size mod but I doubt that is possible

I currently made the Dead lands the biggest stage we have so far. Once we get the code to make that stage bigger, it should bee sweet

 

[The Cape]

New DL64 in the works.

What I meant by bigger FD was more space to move around. Not possible to modify it with the same code as the Corneria one?

 

[kupo15]

GIVE ME DL64!!!!!

As of now...no. You can't use the corneria code to mod FD or else I would do it in a heartbeat. But you would still have to adjust the blast zones because they don't adjust.

here are the stages that so far can be adjusted.

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v406/modifier/

Someone just needs to bug YS for the rest! I would very much like have the codes for all the ones that are able to be edited.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

I disagree Falcon is excellent per se but it's irrelevant to the discussion. What is Falcon's sweetspot frames? 4 I think but I'm unsure. Zelda's was 2. Ask her mains what they want. Two extra frames to sweetspot with but a nerf to KO power or to keep it as is. My two cents. I'm against a buff to making sweetspots easier if it doesn't come with a nerf in KO power.

As I was not in this room to make a case about this before...

Zelda kick sweetspots are in fact only present for 1 frame on on Fair and Bair, as I tested with the debug pause. They are also tiny enough that simple movements such as the idle animations a character makes while standing still are enough to flub it. The flailing bodies of characters are tumbling are also make it seriously difficult to land even if you appear "spot on."

My suggestion was to keep the sweetspots 1 frame only to keep their required execution timing precise, but somehow increase the size of Zelda's Fair sweetspot to compensate for the difficulty of landing a kick of a tumbling character, or even just someone whose legs happened to spread a moment too soon. I wanted this to apply to Fair only, because it's already outclassed by Bair by a number of reasons:

-comes out slower
-more afterlag
-attack box occurs after leg extends. This is in contrast to Bair whose attack box occurs on the same frame her leg fully extends. This means Fair is more liable to be outprioritized rather than be capable of trade.
-Fair takes up the entire duration of a SH unlike Bair.
-Ranges are identical
-lower BKB than Bair for some reason

Doesn't need to be giant, but larger enough so that you can actually land it in these given-to-you situations, or stand a chance of hitting targets low to the ground. It would also give Bair and Fair unique applications rather than Bair simply being better than Fair in all ways.

Dair's sweetspot is much larger than Fair and Bair, but is still a 1-frame dealie like this. I'd like to see this be able to sweetspot on grounded foes.

 

[shanus]

Ryoko, we can't do it for Zeldas fair. IF we convert her flub to her sweetspot, her entire body becomes the sweetspot.

 

[The Cape]

And whats the problem with that when its only a frame or two?

Falcon knee hitbox is bigger, easier to hit, and more useful, and we still buffed that.

 

[kupo15]

We can't alter the size of hitboxes but I think it would be a good idea to make all sweet spots last longer

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Cape already informed me of that quirk. Probably has to be addressed in a different way.

Even I can admit Zelda's entire Fair/Bair hitbox becoming a sweetspot is ridiculous even if just for one frame. As far as CF's knee being buffed to what it is currently, I do have a bone to pick about that.

 

[kupo15]

The sweet spots I am talking about are knee(make the reverse 1 frame and extend the forward one), all three toes, lucas bair and pits bair (that's all I can think of). I think they should act like ness' bair. So it would be a global change to sweet spots

 

[shanus]

I thought the reverse and forward knee came out at the same frame point and had the same duration? That would make it impossible to edit it that way.

 

[Alopex]

The OP has Ivy's SideB buffed to 1.25x instead of 1.5x, a change that I wholly agree with and one that I see everyone else agreed with too.

So why is it still 1.5x in your latest set, shanus?


Also, I still think we should give 10 frame tech window a try. 15 frame is just too large, easy, untactile, and plain bad.


And really, I don't think any of the sweetspots need buffing. Stop removing a timing skill barrier.

 

[kupo15]

And really, I don't think any of the sweetspots need buffing. Stop removing a timing skill barrier.

I'm sorry but did you read this?

Zelda kick sweetspots are in fact only present for 1 frame on on Fair and Bair, as I tested with the debug pause. They are also tiny enough that simple movements such as the idle animations a character makes while standing still are enough to flub it. The flailing bodies of characters are tumbling are also make it seriously difficult to land even if you appear "spot on."

That sounds a bit ridiculous to me how you would still miss due to a tiny position change from an animation. I think the more important aspect to landing sweet spots should be location. For the zelda example, she is positioned in the correct location but the window is so tiny that its ridiculous that she can miss so easily. You make it sound like I am making the entire move sweet spot. If your location is not right, you won't sweet spot even with it being easier

 

[Alopex]

Did you know that I have no problems landing the sweetspot on Zelda's kick even with that tiny window?

I've mastered the timing and positioning. It's something I'm proud of. Something I worked for. Anyone who has issues with it just needs to practice more. It's that simple.

For the record, Rion, a very good Montreal Zelda main, had no issues whatsoever with landing LK sweetspots in Brawl+ and didn't even consider them as a change that needed to be made.
Zelda mains don't have a problem with the LK. When noobs are the ones who are having problem with a move, it doesn't warrant a buff.

 

[Revven]

So why is it still 1.5x in your latest set, shanus?

We changed it back. 1.25x was stupid slow and didn't allow Ivy to do anything from because 1) people can JAB the leaves to stop them from coming and 2) He still had too much wind-down to do much of anything from it. The wind-down at 1.5x isn't stupid good because Ivy's leaves have terrible priority in comparison to Falco's lasers who have no real way of stopping them.

 

[goodoldganon]

The OP has Ivy's SideB buffed to 1.25x instead of 1.5x, a change that I wholly agree with and one that I see everyone else agreed with too.

So why is it still 1.5x in your latest set, shanus?


Also, I still think we should give 10 frame tech window a try. 15 frame is just too large, easy, untactile, and plain bad.


And really, I don't think any of the sweetspots need buffing. Stop removing a timing skill barrier.

Teching is fine at 15 frames. We decided to go with the approach that you should choose when you want to tech, just like you choose to spot dodge or shield roll. If nothing else, I like keeping it easier for all the Brawl players who never touched Melee or 64 and don't know the importance of proper teching.

 

[The Cape]

I actually played Ivy and camped the side B as hard as I could with it set to 1.5x. It still was less effective than Falco lasers. First game is absolutely destroyed Kaotical and then after that he found more and more ways though the leaves, even with me mixing up fast and slow ones, SH, FH, and standing ones. No matter what I did he still found ways to get between the leaves and combo me. It was close matches all around and Ivy is actually better when played straight up.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Did you know that I have no problems landing the sweetspot on Zelda's kick even with that tiny window?

I've mastered the timing and positioning. It's something I'm proud of. Something I worked for. Anyone who has issues with it just needs to practice more. It's that simple.

For the record, Rion, a very good Montreal Zelda main, had no issues whatsoever with landing LK sweetspots in Brawl+ and didn't even consider them as a change that needed to be made.
Zelda mains don't have a problem with the LK. When noobs are the ones who are having problem with a move, it doesn't warrant a buff.

Giant yawn, revert knee by that logic. I'm just fine with the kick(s) too, but I just back air everything and use Fair if I mess up facing the right direction.

No master of timing and positioning can account for their center body being in kick range one frame but being out to the foreground range the next. You can hit the very center of their bodily mass and still flub in this case. You also won't be hitting anything a character who can turtle out of range with frame perfect timing. I'm not looking for a frame window increase, but a slight size increase, and then only to Fair so it isn't useless compared to Bair. If everyone had uniform, fat bodies like Meta Knight, Kirby, Pikachu etc. that didn't bend, then this wouldn't even be an issue at all. It's likely that this can't be addressed in this way until a hitbox size modifier arrives.

 

[Alopex]

Bringing up the reverse knee as a point against me is futile. I don't care for it nor any boost to Falcon's knee sweetspot. I've already stated before that I really don't see the point in buffing any sweetspot.

There is no double standard in my stance.

If you guys want to buff Zelda's LK, go ahead. It's buff to my character and I will be certain to make extensive use of it. But I wanted to make it clear, before any change was made, that it's not exactly a necessary change.

While we're add it, there are tons of other sweetspots to be buffed. Why aren't we buffing Pit Bair? Or fixing ROB useless Dair?

It's a slippery slope, but as long as it ends in buff, feel free to go down it.

I actually played Ivy and camped the side B as hard as I could with it set to 1.5x. It still was less effective than Falco lasers. First game is absolutely destroyed Kaotical and then after that he found more and more ways though the leaves, even with me mixing up fast and slow ones, SH, FH, and standing ones. No matter what I did he still found ways to get between the leaves and combo me. It was close matches all around and Ivy is actually better when played straight up.

"Camping as hard as you can" is vastly different from "effective camping".
It's like day and night. Like a bad Pit in vBrawl and a good Pit in vBrawl.

It's hard for me to take your results as definitive when I've seen those leaves used to such powerful degrees, with very effective camping. It's not broken, but it's not ideal to have them be so fast. I've been saying forever that 1.33x is the best number. 1.25 is too low, 1.5 is too high. I mean, go for 1.37x if you want a bit more speed, but there's no need to go higher.

 

[goodoldganon]

I'm not sure why we still talk about the reverse knee...

The reverse knee hitbox is laughable now compared to the actual sweetspot. Remember we weakened it by 30+%. It was a slight Falcon buff. I just really don't care that he got it. We had this discussion a while ago so hopefully we can drop it again. Falcon got a nifty little buff and that's all there is to it.

 

[kupo15]

While we're add it, there are tons of other sweetspots to be buffed. Why aren't we buffing Pit Bair?

I did mention it a couple posts back

The sweet spots I am talking about are knee(make the reverse 1 frame and extend the forward one), all three toes, lucas bair and pits bair (that's all I can think of). I think they should act like ness' bair. So it would be a global change to sweet spots

Or fixing ROB useless Dair?.

What is useless about it?

 

[Alopex]

What is useless about it?

It's pretty much like Ivy's old Dair, except with more start-up. And no one liked Ivy's old Dair.
It's a sweetspot in the sense of the spike hitbox, again like Ivy's.

 

[kupo15]

I thought the whole move spiked. Guess not

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Pit's Bair is timing-only. As long as the target was anywhere behind Pit I could not for the life of me not get it to "sweetspot."

 

[kupo15]

I was able to get a reverse sweet spot bair