Cloud Moveset analysis (including Gifycats + Frame Data)

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Sakruai is known for looking out for all of the details of a game and character. Cloud charging up a Limit Break, would be a completely misrepresentation of him and Final Fantasy 7. I can't see him making such a big mistake.
In my opinion Limit Breaks Animation will be triggered in some other way (like standing still after getting some damage).

I can be totally wrong, since it really looks like Cloud charges his bar, but it would be really strange in my opinion.

If Sakurai was 100% accurate with the source game, there'd be NO WAY he could use his specials if his Limit Gauge was not full since they are, in fact, Limit Breaks in FF7.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Dunno why people think Sakurai will be all about accurate representation if Ridley and Ganondorf exist. And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

 

[Iron Maw]

Cloud seems to be fantastic addition to roster so far!

Climhazzard is looking like it might be great OoS option (perhaps even D Tilt too). Seems to have very good range and speed. Wish we could have seen what other effects of LB version had. I'm also interested on how low D Tilt can go too.

Ugh, we do we have to wait until December?!

 

[Neo Zero]

Dunno why people think Sakurai will be all about accurate representation if Ridley and Ganondorf exist. And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

Third party chars have actually been very accurate, especially the Sm4sh 3rd parties.

Also, another note on the earlier gif where he jabbed right out of his dash, I wonder if it can be replicated with his tilts too, having an on demand access to his Dtilt for misspaced aerial approaches and to go under projectiles and perhaps even certain attacks could be an invaluable tool.

 

[The_Cardinal]

Jump-cancelled LB Cross Slash may actually be a good Oos option also if it really does have quick start up and invul.

 

[Burruni]

Dunno why people think Sakurai will be all about accurate representation if Ridley and Ganondorf exist. And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

One poorly represented fighter out of 63.
One poorly represented Assist Trophy/Boss out of how many?

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Here's a theory I have about LB Climhazzard; What if you can influence it direction to give it a horizontal boost like in the trailer?

 

[Virum]

What I really want to know (well, among many other things) is the projectile durability of blade beam, aka what projectiles it can beat or not. LB bladebeam also seems to be a bit like Robin's arcthunder. The multi-hit property seems to only activate when it collides with something, in this case when Olimer threw his blue pikmin (as opposed to Olimer getting hit directly himself). But because of the multi-hit vortex's massive hitbox, Olimer also got hit and sucked in (vacuum effect). Cloud seems to have enough lag to prevent follow-ups like Robin and her arcthunder, but maybe at close-range or even point blank?

Well projectile durability as an attribute per se doesn't exist in Smash (unlike, say, Ultimate Marvel vs Capcom 3). How projectiles interact with other moves is instead based on a handful of factors:

1) Their damage output. Moves within an 8% threshold of the projectile are able to clank with them and essentially beat them out.

2) Whether or not the hitbox is unclankable. Projectiles like Sheik's needle and Falco's laser cannot be clanked by other attacks and instead go straight through them.

3) Whether or not it's a 'trigger' projectile i.e. one that travels along then triggers another sort of hitbox upon interacting with something e.g. PK Fire/Arcfire/Arcthunder.

As a result if Blade Beam does less than 9% anything will be able to clank with it provided it isn't unclankable but if it were unclankable it would probably be pretty busted. LB Blade Beam however is very likely going to work like Arcthunder where the multi hits can trigger upon interacting with something.

 

[Neo Zero]

Given it's size and speed, I imagine it'd work similar to Ryu's Hadoken. We do see that LB Blade Beam does trigger based on it hitting something (in that case it was the Blue Pikmin throw) but we certainly don't know enough about it's rules at any rate, just the general rules of Sm4sh.

 

[MagiusNecros]

One poorly represented fighter out of 63.
One poorly represented Assist Trophy/Boss out of how many?

If you took the time to examine the whole roster complete accuracy boils down to about 60%.

Only the 3rd party characters were actually given a lot of royalties to accuracy.

 

[FlynnCL]

Random ramble here, you don't need to pay attention.

To me, forward air is one of his most interesting attacks and I still don't know what to make of it. It has the same "large wind up with an instant slash" animation where it appears to skip the swing itself (pictured is the frame before and frame after where Mario is hit). After the hitlag is over Cloud has already stopped swinging, showing that the slash might be over within 1-2 frames.

This has me really curious. Does this mean forward air will have almost no active frames after a large amount of start up?

Another worry I have is how "accurate" his hitboxes will be; as they'd usually be attached to the "bone" of a sword (like Marth, Ike, Shulk during their swings), if there's no clear swing animation they'll have to compensate that by placing hitboxes where his sword trails are. I just hope they do a generous job. Meta Knight has the instant slash trait too and his hitboxes were very strange.

Forward air also put Mario in a lot of hitlag compared to his back air, up tilt and jab 3. Unless it has a hitlag modifier as it's a meteor smash, it could imply that forward air does a good amount of damage. I really hope so because an attack like that could really benefit with some decent shield stun.

It seems like forward air will have little trouble hitting standing opponents on the ground from even a rising full hop (which is what I assume Cloud did in the picture), though unfortunately it still wasn't able to auto cancel. There's a hefty amount of range in this attack and I hope it sees decent use in edge guarding (maybe even hitting ledge-snap from the stage?). The landing lag also doesn't seem too bad either.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Cloud's Fair seems like Donkey Kong's just no start up.

 

[Iron Maw]

Third party chars have actually been very accurate, especially the Sm4sh 3rd parties.

Also, another note on the earlier gif where he jabbed right out of his dash, I wonder if it can be replicated with his tilts too, having an on demand access to his Dtilt for misspaced aerial approaches and to go under projectiles and perhaps even certain attacks could be an invaluable tool.

At very least I see it making people who use characters with projectile think twice about throwing them out mid range. There also combo oppuninties that presents.

Jump-cancelled LB Cross Slash may actually be a good Oos option also if it really does have quick start up and invul.

It very well look like might, I wouldn't be surprised if that standard for almost all of Cloud's LB variants except for Blade Beam.

Speaking of Cross Slash, I'm hoping Jab>Jab>Cross Slash becomes a thing. D Tilt>Up Tilt>Up B, D Tilt>Uair>Up B or D Tilt>Cross Slash being possible would be great too. I would like to exactly know how far the horizontal reach of Up Tilit is. Depending the height of who Cloud is facing he could pull some pretty tricky attacks with that overhead.

 

[Aetheri]

It's hard to say...what we see in the vid could be nothing more than just the cooldown animation...Ike's Bair works similarly as it doesn't turn him around but it requires a lot of cool-down in the air, but is relatively safe upon landing...

I wouldn't say either case is conclusive yet, but my bet is it probably won't turn him around...

Let me also remind Zelda's ridiculous cooldown on both her fair and bair as well....

 

[Avokha]

Cloud performs another back-air when it was showing off the Midgar stage and its summons. It shows a frame of his landing lag and I'm having a bit of trouble making complete sense of which direction he's facing.

I believe he's facing to the left with the Buster Sword stretched outward behind him.

Cloud isn't mirrored either like Mario or Bowser. He's using the same arm to hold the Buster Sword as the one in the back air landing animation, yet he's still facing left. This suggests that back air does not turn him around.

This additionally shows that back air might not be able to auto cancel very early. That worries me but it's only a trailer so I'll keep optimistic.

Interestingly, in the third picture with Lucas and Pit, Cloud is actually not experiencing landing lag from his Bair, but is actually completing his backwards roll animation, which coincidentally looks similar to Bair landing lag as seen here.

Whether or not Bair turns him around ala Marth is still up for debate, as Cloud seems to be looking over his shoulder during Bair landing lag, though this could arguably be merely an illusion caused by the angle of his (admittedly unusual) hair. Personally, it seems likely to me.

 

[Pedker]

Something that I've personally noticed in the trailer, and am very surprised to find not being discussed, is his up-air. Looking at the trailer, it seems to send the opponent at a very favorable angle. Not only that, but it also seems to come out decently quickly. From my speculation it seems to be a potentially devastating move, with lots of potential combos coming from it.
consider things like: falling up-air>ANYTHING, throw>up-air, throw>two up-airs, throw>up-air>anything.
Of course, that could all potentially be thrown out later depending on how much endlag/hitstun etc. it has, but it's good food for thought.

 

[ligersandtigons]

So GimR has put up an analysis video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-PtKZCjkQo

Summary taken from GameFAQS:
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/633202-super-smash-bros-for-wii-u/72833545

Jab frame 5 that's easily shield grabbed since it moves forward
Forward Tilt frame 7(which is good) but has a long cooldown
Down Tilt frame 9 and ducks under a lot of moves(i.e samus' missles)
Up Tilt frame 7 with low cooldown so might be like lucario's but longer
Dash Attack frame 9
Forward Smash frame 19 with a massive hitbox
Down Smash frame 7 which is very good
Up Smash frame 17, massive hitbox
Neutral Air active 7 frames but has landing lag and bad angles so is bad for combos
Forward Air frame 15 and goes from leaning back to sword out immediately, meaning it's amazing for trades. spikes and has 15 frames of lag
Back Air frame 9
Down Air frame 11 that spikes and is active 26 frames, which is pretty good considering falcon's dair is frame 14 and relatively fast
Up Air frame 6 and active 19 frames
Neutral B frame 19 but active for a long time
Side B frame 8 and multihits
Up B frame 7 and a massive hitbox
Down B is limit break which takes about 6 seconds to fully charge
Cloud can then use limit break once on any of his specials.
Cloud's Neutral B becomes a multihit, much bigger, and much more powerful.
Cloud's Side B becomes more powerful and kills horizontally. Also gains invinc on startup
Down B becomes a swirling attack that KO's off the top and has a camera angle similar to Mac's KO punch

*Credit to Thrill*

 

[Miley]

Neutral Air active 7 frames but has landing lag and bad angles so is bad for combos

I have nope for this n-air. The vid shows Cloud catching him w/ the very tail end of the hit box, from behind him. We'll have to see what it does when hit from in front.

 

[Virum]

It's difficult to base the number of active frames of a move based on how long their sword glow is active. Shulk is a shining example of this, with various moves in his moveset such as FSmash, UAir and DAir not having hitboxes to match how long their graphics last.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

So GimR has put up an analysis video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-PtKZCjkQo

Summary taken from GameFAQS:
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/633202-super-smash-bros-for-wii-u/72833545

Jab frame 5 that's easily shield grabbed since it moves forward
Forward Tilt frame 7(which is good) but has a long cooldown
Down Tilt frame 9 and ducks under a lot of moves(i.e samus' missles)
Up Tilt frame 7 with low cooldown so might be like lucario's but longer
Dash Attack frame 9
Forward Smash frame 19 with a massive hitbox
Down Smash frame 7 which is very good
Up Smash frame 17, massive hitbox
Neutral Air active 7 frames but has landing lag and bad angles so is bad for combos
Forward Air frame 15 and goes from leaning back to sword out immediately, meaning it's amazing for trades. spikes and has 15 frames of lag
Back Air frame 9
Down Air frame 11 that spikes and is active 26 frames, which is pretty good considering falcon's dair is frame 14 and relatively fast
Up Air frame 6 and active 19 frames
Neutral B frame 19 but active for a long time
Side B frame 8 and multihits
Up B frame 7 and a massive hitbox
Down B is limit break which takes about 6 seconds to fully charge
Cloud can then use limit break once on any of his specials.
Cloud's Neutral B becomes a multihit, much bigger, and much more powerful.
Cloud's Side B becomes more powerful and kills horizontally. Also gains invinc on startup
Down B becomes a swirling attack that KO's off the top and has a camera angle similar to Mac's KO punch

*Credit to Thrill*

Damn! Cloud is really quick!

I'm starting to like his moveset!

 

[meleebrawler]

I have a hard time believing that Cloud's ftilt won't have at least some IASA, as it doesn't really seem to have the power to justify that lag unlike fsmash.

That Cloud starts his nair from above and behind before swinging it forward will definitely make it a bit awkward for landing.

 

[Dhragen]

I think the fact that the Limit Break bar is chargeable could be a nod to the turn-based combat of Final Fantasy, having to "wait" before doing the next command, so, in his next turn get his limit break ready....well, that's what i believe, i could be wrong.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Personally, I believe that the Limit Gauge could have two different ways to charge up;

• The way that is accurate to how it works in the game; getting damage.
• Charging it manually, as if you were waiting for your turn, just like Dhragen just posted.

 

[DarkDeity15]

I wonder how Nair would be utilized since it's so unsafe by the looks of it.

Dat frame 5 jab tho.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I wonder how Nair would be utilized since it's so unsafe by the looks of it.

Most likely an unsafe approach tool.

 

[EnhaloTricks]

Most likely an unsafe approach tool.

From just looking at his moves now (and the rough frame data provided by GimR) it seems as if approaching is going to be a bit difficult for Cloud. Which sucks I want him to be a rushdown, rather than a bait-n-wait. It does seem like his punish game is gonna be top notch, though, which is perfect as I play Ness haha. He definitely seems like he's gonna have a "large" amount of BnB combos, though. At least at low percents.

The main thing I'm interested in at this point is how his cross-slash is gonna be used in the air. Is it gonna send him a large distance but put him in freefall afterwards, a la Ike? Or is it gonna give him a decent of horizontal push with large end lag on whiff like the Pits? Will it give him a small horizontal push with a hitbox with little endlag on whiff like Sheik/ZSS downB? I hope for the third, because his UpB looks pretty lackluster in its horizontal recovery but being able to sideB closer to the stage then UpB quickly afterwards would be awesome.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

From just looking at his moves now (and the rough frame data provided by GimR) it seems as if approaching is going to be a bit difficult for Cloud. Which sucks I want him to be a rushdown, rather than a bait-n-wait. It does seem like his punish game is gonna be top notch, though, which is perfect as I play Ness haha. He definitely seems like he's gonna have a "large" amount of BnB combos, though. At least at low percents.

I honestly don't care if he's a bait-n-wait; I usually play Bowser anyway, so I'm used to that playstyle.

The main thing I'm interested in at this point is how his cross-slash is gonna be used in the air. Is it gonna send him a large distance but put him in freefall afterwards, a la Ike? Or is it gonna give him a decent of horizontal push with large end lag on whiff like the Pits? Will it give him a small horizontal push with a hitbox with little endlag on whiff like Sheik/ZSS downB? I hope for the third, because his UpB looks pretty lackluster in its horizontal recovery but being able to sideB closer to the stage then UpB quickly afterwards would be awesome.

By the looks of it, it'll probably just stall him in the air, making him vulnerable to spikes if whipped in the air.

 

[ffdgh]

Hmm...I wonder if meteor rain is the second half of climhazzard's limit break variation. Would be odd for it to be the only one left out.

 

[Ffamran]

So GimR has put up an analysis video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-PtKZCjkQo

Summary taken from GameFAQS:
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/633202-super-smash-bros-for-wii-u/72833545

Down Air frame 11 that spikes and is active 26 frames, which is pretty good considering falcon's dair is frame 14 and relatively fast

*Credit to Thrill*

Nitpick: Captain Falcon's Dair is frame 16 and around frame 13 is when moves start becoming slow.

 

[TTTTTsd]

What do you do with Cloud's Nair? He swings it around his body like Ike, be creative! It doesn't knock at an intuitive angle but 16f of lag isn't incredibly terrible for wide hitbox coverage (personally). Pretty easy crossup and might even be better for edgeguarding with RAR or something.

His kit looks incredibly solid and the fact that he has Limit Break (which is 100% incentive to not camp Cloud because if you run away he'll just charge Limit) make him solid. I doubt he's going to be purely defensive, I imagine he'll have decent throws (even if his D-Throw has only ok IASA that Uair will probably combo off of it if D-Throw launches up because DAT SPEED). His mobility looks fine for a character that has a Limit Break mechanic, and need I remind you that his Fair looks INSANE? It's like DK Fair except faster and even less landing lag + A SWORD. Like, that's nutty as hell yo. That hitlag also implies a solid hitlag modifier on Fair at least which is great for shields considering he already has disjoint with the buster sword. Also sweet jesus that Dair, even if the glow doesn't represent the hitbox lingering, a FRAME ELEVEN SPIKE? That's INSANELY fast for a dunk in this game, and with THAT much vertical reach on it?

Gimr's analysis shows me that he won't have free approach options but I think he'll be able to go in and flex just fine. Going by his kit so far, anyways. If he somehow turns out underwhelming he'll at worst be in the middle of the roster, potentially above Marth IMO. Not going to say if he is or isn't now, but I feel like that's the WORST he'll be based on what we've seen. It's all idle speculation though. I just think he def looks good, even if literally nothing autocancels.

 

[Ffamran]

Not to mention that Cloud's Nair has a lot of range while covering his body like Ike and Shulk's. It's almost like Ike's Nair in the way it hits and Shulk's in range.

Frame 11 or 12 Dair spike on Cloud with about 20+ active frames is when we start questioning Falco, Ike, and Roy's frame 16 Dair spikes, especially when Ike and Roy have about 2 active frames while Falco's has similar active frames, but it's not a disjoint. Also, none of them have a fat hitbox like Cloud's.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Not to mention that Cloud's Nair has a lot of range while covering his body like Ike and Shulk's. It's almost like Ike's Nair in the way it hits and Shulk's in range.

Frame 11 or 12 Dair spike on Cloud with about 20+ active frames is when we start questioning Falco, Ike, and Roy's frame 16 Dair spikes, especially when Ike and Roy have about 2 active frames while Falco's has similar active frames, but it's not a disjoint. Also, none of them have a fat hitbox like Cloud's.

To go on, his DSmash looks ABSOLUTELY ridiculous. Like, whoa. Little Mac wasn't even flashing or blinking red, and I know he's light but like, holy crap! Frame 7 and it does THAT?! Like damn son.

There's no way this character can be really that bad, his kit looks deliberately tuned to beat people up. He might not turn up as amazing as Ike (or he might, no idea! Limit Break 2stronk?), but I think he'll be good in his own right. His FSmash also looks great for stopping things like armored landings. Probably really good for someone like Ryu, for instance.

 

[Ffamran]

They have to retune some of the characters if they're letting Cloud have some of these moves like his Dair which is apparently Luigi, the Pits, Marth, and Palutena speed, but has much more active frames while having similar or better hitboxes like being a disjoint unlike Luigi and Pally's kick Dairs.

 

[TTTTTsd]

They have to retune some of the characters if they're letting Cloud have some of these moves like his Dair which is apparently Luigi, the Pits, Marth, and Palutena speed, but has much more active frames while having similar or better hitboxes like being a disjoint unlike Luigi and Pally's kick Dairs.

Nah son this is just the power of the RPG protagonist. The same way Ryu can just demolish anyone in this game and has like no MU bad enough to switch off of (Ryu's been doing this whole fighting thing for quite a deal longer!)

This is just the power of Swordsman with a gimmick that isn't self-destructive or requires really strict balancing (Shulk can't be not laggy because reach and monado, unfortunately).

 

[meleebrawler]

They have to retune some of the characters if they're letting Cloud have some of these moves like his Dair which is apparently Luigi, the Pits, Marth, and Palutena speed, but has much more active frames while having similar or better hitboxes like being a disjoint unlike Luigi and Pally's kick Dairs.

I very much doubt it'd spike for the whole duration. Link's sure doesn't.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I very much doubt it'd spike for the whole duration. Link's sure doesn't.

Yeah like I don't think it's that much frames for a SPIKE perse, it just means if they AD it and it's active for long the sour hit will just clip them for more damage.

I mean, even if it was active for Frame 11-13 for instance, STILL RIDICULOUSLY FAST for a spike that's so disjointed. So gahlike <3.

 

[DarkDeity15]

They have to retune some of the characters if they're letting Cloud have some of these moves like his Dair which is apparently Luigi, the Pits, Marth, and Palutena speed, but has much more active frames while having similar or better hitboxes like being a disjoint unlike Luigi and Pally's kick Dairs.

This could mean that they intend to dish out buffs throughout the cast, though it would negatively affect Cloud's viability I'd imagine. There really isn't much to go on though since we just don't quite know enough about Cloud yet.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Hmm...I wonder if meteor rain is the second half of climhazzard's limit break variation. Would be odd for it to be the only one left out.

Sakurai could always make his up throw like Kirby/Meta Knight's, but make it look like a meteor.

Wouldn't really be the Meteor Rain we know and love, but it'd be something...

 

[Deleted member]

What do you do with Cloud's Nair? He swings it around his body like Ike, be creative! It doesn't knock at an intuitive angle but 16f of lag isn't incredibly terrible for wide hitbox coverage (personally). Pretty easy crossup and might even be better for edgeguarding with RAR or something.

His kit looks incredibly solid and the fact that he has Limit Break (which is 100% incentive to not camp Cloud because if you run away he'll just charge Limit) make him solid. I doubt he's going to be purely defensive, I imagine he'll have decent throws (even if his D-Throw has only ok IASA that Uair will probably combo off of it if D-Throw launches up because DAT SPEED). His mobility looks fine for a character that has a Limit Break mechanic, and need I remind you that his Fair looks INSANE? It's like DK Fair except faster and even less landing lag + A SWORD. Like, that's nutty as hell yo. That hitlag also implies a solid hitlag modifier on Fair at least which is great for shields considering he already has disjoint with the buster sword. Also sweet jesus that Dair, even if the glow doesn't represent the hitbox lingering, a FRAME ELEVEN SPIKE? That's INSANELY fast for a dunk in this game, and with THAT much vertical reach on it?

Gimr's analysis shows me that he won't have free approach options but I think he'll be able to go in and flex just fine. Going by his kit so far, anyways. If he somehow turns out underwhelming he'll at worst be in the middle of the roster, potentially above Marth IMO. Not going to say if he is or isn't now, but I feel like that's the WORST he'll be based on what we've seen. It's all idle speculation though. I just think he def looks good, even if literally nothing autocancels.

I get the feeling that RAR Nair offstage will be a nice gimp tool for Cloud, it doesn't semi-spike like Robin's Nairplane but it doesn't seem to launch higher than ~20 degrees above horizontal when it connects underneath Cloud as it did on Megaman in the trailer, and then on top of that it has nice reach beneath Cloud for said hitbox.

I'm hoping his F-tilt will have less cooldown than it seems to in the trailer, either that or good IASA frames because right now that move is looking super laggy and unsafe.

On the topic of his Dair, I think it'd be amazing if it had a lingering hitbox, granted it certainly won't be like Link's in terms of duration IMO because Link's is designed to sit out underneath him for a year but even if it did like 8% late contact damage after the spike hitbox ends I'd be happy depending on the trajectory it would have. (Link's Dair does 15% on startup for meteor, then 18% for fresh non-meteor contact (read: just after the meteor hitbox ends) and then 15% again for late non-meteor contact, FYI).

 

[TTTTTsd]

I get the feeling that RAR Nair offstage will be a nice gimp tool for Cloud, it doesn't semi-spike like Robin's Nairplane but it doesn't seem to launch higher than ~20 degrees above horizontal when it connects underneath Cloud as it did on Megaman in the trailer, and then on top of that it has nice reach beneath Cloud for said hitbox.

I'm hoping his F-tilt will have less cooldown than it seems to in the trailer, either that or good IASA frames because right now that move is looking super laggy and unsafe.

On the topic of his Dair, I think it'd be amazing if it had a lingering hitbox, granted it certainly won't be like Link's in terms of duration IMO because Link's is designed to sit out underneath him for a year but even if it did like 8% late contact damage after the spike hitbox ends I'd be happy depending on the trajectory it would have. (Link's Dair does 15% on startup for meteor, then 18% for fresh non-meteor contact (read: just after the meteor hitbox ends) and then 15% again for late non-meteor contact, FYI).

Ftilt is probably like Marth/Roy Dtilt where it has an actual cooldown animation but you can move out of it (you know, IASA lol), I'm almost positive that it's cinematic. Given that Marth Ftilt is barely slower than Cloud's but has less cooldown than Cloud's looked in the trailer, I imagine it's solely just polish animation that you can move out of if you desire. Smash is also a lot about presentation (especially this one, all the visual FX for instance, among other things).