Cloud Moveset analysis (including Gifycats + Frame Data)

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I get the feeling that RAR Nair offstage will be a nice gimp tool for Cloud, it doesn't semi-spike like Robin's Nairplane but it doesn't seem to launch higher than ~20 degrees above horizontal when it connects underneath Cloud as it did on Megaman in the trailer, and then on top of that it has nice reach beneath Cloud for said hitbox.

I don't think it deals enough knockback to actually gimp...

At least not at a distance that could allow Cloud to still recover (not counting LB Climhazzard)

I'm hoping his F-tilt will have less cooldown than it seems to in the trailer, either that or good IASA frames because right now that move is looking super laggy and unsafe.

I hate to sound like a broken record, but I gotta agree; Ftilit definetly has IASA frames. There's just no way that the move is as laggy as shown.

 

[meleebrawler]

Ftilt is probably like Marth/Roy Dtilt where it has an actual cooldown animation but you can move out of it (you know, IASA lol), I'm almost positive that it's cinematic. Given that Marth Ftilt is barely slower than Cloud's but has less cooldown than Cloud's looked in the trailer, I imagine it's solely just polish animation that you can move out of if you desire. Smash is also a lot about presentation (especially this one, all the visual FX for instance, among other things).

I'm sure Ffamran would back me up on this, basically there's no reason Cloud should be stuck there after ftilt for long with the way it ends up behind him, in the position it normally ends up in when he's moving.

They're really emphasizing the weight and broad size of the Buster Sword with things like his double jump and how some of his moves are basically just him shoving it into his opponent's faces.

 

[Ffamran]

I very much doubt it'd spike for the whole duration. Link's sure doesn't.

Neither does Falco, Luigi, or Marth's. Still, that kind of speed with that many active frames? Luigi and Marth's the closest with 5 active frames to an estimate of Cloud's 20+. Low active frame spikes are hitbox dependent like Ike and Ganondorf's and the only Dair to spike regardless of clean or late is Zelda's. Dairs in general are under-tuned and very situational for almost everyone.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

So here's a question... what characters do you think would help one practice up for using Cloud?

I would think Ike is relevant (similar jab, ftilt, bair, nair, dair, and fair to some extent) but are there any others?

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

So here's a question... what characters do you think would help one practice up for using Cloud?

I would think Ike is relevant (similar jab, ftilt, bair, nair, dair, and fair to some extent) but are there any others?

Don't pick a character because he has similar moves; they could end up being different despite having the same animations.

Instead, pick a character that fits with the fundamentals of Cloud.

For example, he has a lot of range, so you could pick Ike or Shulk to learn how to space properly with a bug weapon.

I could even suggest Bowser because he's slower and hitboxes aren't disjointed, forcing you to really be more efficient with your spacing to avoid being punished.

 

[jet56]

so ive been thinking about it, and we still have a lot of questions as to how much knockback and damage the moves that cloud has. however, i think it is possible to at least get a general range on the knockback and damage of clouds LB side b and down b moves by looking at the trailer.
Consider this: the rage mechanic in smash makes it so a character starts flashing red and has a steam coming above them when they are at a certain percent. it becomes noticeable at 100%, and becomes more prominent and seen up to 150%. however when cloud used his LB cross slash on fox and shiek, neither of them had this animation, EVEN AFTER cloud hit them with the LB side b. of course cloud could also have had rage, but cloud also did not have the rage animation for himself either, which means the rage, if any, was negligible. im going to low ball this and be safe, but lets say LB side b does 20%, meaning shiek and fox were AT MOST 79% when cloud hit them, so they would be at 99% when they died off the blast zone. so in short:
LB Side B: 20% damage, kills fox and shiek at about 80%, and this is me in my opinion low balling and assuming percent could be at its highest without the rage animation showing. and it was across FD.

Now lets use this same analysis for the move finishing touch, which killed roy and Link off the top, both of them being heavier characters. im going to assume that finishing touch does 15% damage meaning:
LB finishing touch: 15% damage, kills link and roy at 84% off the top.

now remember this is me speculating on damage and on percentage of the opposing characters, with cloud potentially having a small amount of range. but it should still serve to show the sheer power of Clouds LB moves, and this is me low balling it i think.

let me know what you guys think, or if i was wrong in using the rage animation as the basis for my hypothesis.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

so ive been thinking about it, and we still have a lot of questions as to how much knockback and damage the moves that cloud has. however, i think it is possible to at least get a general range on the knockback and damage of clouds LB side b and down b moves by looking at the trailer.
Consider this: the rage mechanic in smash makes it so a character starts flashing red and has a steam coming above them when they are at a certain percent. it becomes noticeable at 100%, and becomes more prominent and seen up to 150%. however when cloud used his LB cross slash on fox and shiek, neither of them had this animation, EVEN AFTER cloud hit them with the LB side b. of course cloud could also have had rage, but cloud also did not have the rage animation for himself either, which means the rage, if any, was negligible. im going to low ball this and be safe, but lets say LB side b does 20%, meaning shiek and fox were AT MOST 79% when cloud hit them, so they would be at 99% when they died off the blast zone. so in short:
LB Side B: 20% damage, kills fox and shiek at about 80%, and this is me in my opinion low balling and assuming percent could be at its highest without the rage animation showing. and it was across FD.

Now lets use this same analysis for the move finishing touch, which killed roy and Link off the top, both of them being heavier characters. im going to assume that finishing touch does 15% damage meaning:
LB finishing touch: 15% damage, kills link and roy at 84% off the top.

now remember this is me speculating on damage and on percentage of the opposing characters, with cloud potentially having a small amount of range. but it should still serve to show the sheer power of Clouds LB moves, and this is me low balling it i think.

let me know what you guys think, or if i was wrong in using the rage animation as the basis for my hypothesis.

Just to let you know, Smash trailers don't show the rage effect because it would look weird to see characters smoking and flashing.

 

[Hanku Hirru]

So here's a question... what characters do you think would help one practice up for using Cloud?

I would think Ike is relevant (similar jab, ftilt, bair, nair, dair, and fair to some extent) but are there any others?

Shulk would be another character to add to the list. Like Cloud, he wields a sword with considerable reach, his Monado Arts operates similarly to Cloud's Limit Break mechanics (i.e move set is enhanced by his down special) and he appears to share similar frame data (jab, Up B, etc.).

Frankly, I'd list Ike and Shulk as being the two characters with frame data and move sets comparable to Cloud, at least what we've been shown.

 

[DashGarnett]

I myself find clouds fair the most interesting. Not only does it seem to have little start up but it doesn't seem to last long. As well as it seems to spike making it look like a quicker version of donkey kings fair.

 

[jet56]

Just to let you know, Smash trailers don't show the rage effect because it would look weird to see characters smoking and flashing.

you positive on this? is there a confirmation from a staff member from nintendo stating this is the case? cause if its true, i look like an idiot then.

Edit: i looked extensively, and even looked at ALL the other smash character trailers and tested the same scenarios in the lab, and can say for sure that they do not take the rage animation out, but rather, avoided putting scenes involving the rage animation into their character trailers. a good example is roy's trailer, where he kills wii fit and toon link off the top at the same time with u smash. without rage, 97% is when they would die off the top to the wiley stage, omega and regular. other trailer scenarios with characters sending another character in the blast zone also fall under the same pretenses. and i looked, and could not find any confirmation as to the statement you mentioned as true. i could be wrong, but until i see proof otherwise, i find my hypothesis regarding clouds killing potential and using the rage mechanic as a basis as still valid.

 

[meleebrawler]

How does Climhazzard and it's Limit Break version look for OOS?

 

[Iron Maw]

Another analysis video, this time from Chibo. Be warned, it's around 40 mins:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHANBAntxCw

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Another analysis video, this time from Chibo. Be warned, it's around 40 mins:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHANBAntxCw

I already saw it.

His view on the moveset makes a lot of sense, imo.

 

[ligersandtigons]

How does Climhazzard and it's Limit Break version look for OOS?

Assuming Climhazzard is an f7 attack, I think it will be really good because in terms of frame data, it's comparable to popular OoS up B's like true shoryuken, shuttle loop, and farore's wind. However, Climhazzard has really good range, so it can catch attacks that would normally be safe if spaced properly against other characters.

For the LB version, it depends on how Climhazzard is effected by it. Does LB only buff its range, or does it give super armour and/or damage/knockback increase as well?

 

[The Legendary DJXYZ]

At this point Climhazzard looks like one of Cloud's best neutral options, and it most likely combos out of down tilt as well.

The Limit Break meter can probably be defensively charged in a similar way to the various charge shots, most specifically DK's Giant Punch since they seem to take a similar amount of time. It also seems that LB Blade Beam is the most versatile finishing option at mid-percent since it has very good range, and if the opponent shields it, its multihit properties earn Cloud a free grab.

 

[Vyseskies]

My main concern about Cloud now is how strong are the limit break moves after the charge. The charge itself seems to take a while to fill up so you have to think carefully on what move you'll use, and that knockback strenght will be a decisive factor on his competitive scene. (alongside good combos and throw follow ups which are a ? at the moment) His overall moveset looks average/below average in terms of overall lag, specially landing lag and this makes me a bit worried which will limits his follow up potential plus giving openings on him. I really hope that finishing touch be as strong as Mac's KO punch, but it covers a bigger area (even behind him) and that will make Cloud much more dangerous on meta. Cross slash having invicibility frames is great too, and might work as edgeguard tool as well (along side fair which spikes from side, while bair spikes enemies below), not to mention it looks pretty powerful. Climhazard will be useful for extra recovery, but it probably it does have increased damage as well. However It doesnt look a good OoS option since it seems to have some startup, but I hope it kills at least around 100-120%, because if dont there's no reason to waste the charge on it on stage. Same applies to Blade beam, unless if it works on a safe edgeguard tool, using it on distant enemies off stage midair and allowing you to come back to stage, then that's fine.

 

[RonNewcomb]

I'm wondering about that f-air. Does it only semi-spike, like Link's Meteor Bombs which basically do nothing until the opponent is north of 50%? Why do they give him two really good ways of spiking people to their doom? Is it to make up for a lack of KO power elsewhere in his moveset, like he can't KO without Limit Break or a well-charged Smash attack? Is it to make up for him having a lot of unsafe attacks, similar to Zelda: good punishes, unsafe everything, good d-air spike? Cloud certainly doesn't seem like he has good landing frame data from aerials, so he'd do even less air-to-ground pressure than Marth. Is the projectile + good anti-air u-tilt and u-air a fundamental part of his strategy?

Why do they give him two really good ways of spiking people to their doom?

 

[LunarWingCloud]

Calling it now Limit has absolutely nothing to do with pressing a button and the video was manipulated to make it look like he was "charging" it. He has too many of his actual Limits from FFVII for Limit to be attached to a button. It's gotta be activated like Mac's KO Punch gauge.

 

[ligersandtigons]

Calling it now Limit has absolutely nothing to do with pressing a button and the video was manipulated to make it look like he was "charging" it. He has too many of his actual Limits from FFVII for Limit to be attached to a button. It's gotta be activated like Mac's KO Punch gauge.

I disagree. All of his limits have been mapped to an input that makes sense.

B - blade beam
side B - cross slash
up b - climhazzard
down b - limit break ---> finishing blow

 

[Neo Zero]

Calling it now Limit has absolutely nothing to do with pressing a button and the video was manipulated to make it look like he was "charging" it. He has too many of his actual Limits from FFVII for Limit to be attached to a button. It's gotta be activated like Mac's KO Punch gauge.

Problem with that theory. Number of taunts

Taunt 1- The Sword Spin
Taunt 2- Sassy Cloud
Taunt 3- Casting Magic animation

Additionally, we've seen both of his idle animations. That leaves nothing left that could be the Limit Charge animation outside of a special input, in this case Down B

 

[Bladeviper]

I'm wondering about that f-air. Does it only semi-spike, like Link's Meteor Bombs which basically do nothing until the opponent is north of 50%? Why do they give him two really good ways of spiking people to their doom? Is it to make up for a lack of KO power elsewhere in his moveset, like he can't KO without Limit Break or a well-charged Smash attack? Is it to make up for him having a lot of unsafe attacks, similar to Zelda: good punishes, unsafe everything, good d-air spike? Cloud certainly doesn't seem like he has good landing frame data from aerials, so he'd do even less air-to-ground pressure than Marth. Is the projectile + good anti-air u-tilt and u-air a fundamental part of his strategy?

Why do they give him two really good ways of spiking people to their doom?

dosent dk have several ways to spike people too?

 

[meleebrawler]

I'm wondering about that f-air. Does it only semi-spike, like Link's Meteor Bombs which basically do nothing until the opponent is north of 50%? Why do they give him two really good ways of spiking people to their doom? Is it to make up for a lack of KO power elsewhere in his moveset, like he can't KO without Limit Break or a well-charged Smash attack? Is it to make up for him having a lot of unsafe attacks, similar to Zelda: good punishes, unsafe everything, good d-air spike? Cloud certainly doesn't seem like he has good landing frame data from aerials, so he'd do even less air-to-ground pressure than Marth. Is the projectile + good anti-air u-tilt and u-air a fundamental part of his strategy?

Why do they give him two really good ways of spiking people to their doom?

Because in Dissidia, bouncing people off the terrain is one of the best ways to extend combos. Of course in Smash there's a distinct lack of walls so they give him two meteors to floorbounce with.

Alternatively the fair spike is to make up for his lacking recovery mixups.

Cloud's basically a well-rounded bruiser, he leans towards power but not too much, and he's much less reliant on ideal spacing than the typical swordsman. His combos will probably not be long but made up by high damage per hit, and his spikes will open up plenty of tech-chases otherwise.

Really, outside of possibly his throws which we know next to nothing about, the bulk of his followups are likely going to come from following the opponent after getting spiked by fair or dair.

 

[-XTIAN-]

after watching the trailer 9001x i just noticed that limit break is indeed manually chargable - check the last frames out after the screen goes completly white, u will notice that cloud starts charging it after using blade beam

heres a picture from the japanese trailer

also blade beam seems to have some insane IASA frames lol if its true what i saw (after blade beam there are no waves around cloud, only at the time he charges limit break after)

and also heres the last frame of blade beam before the IASA frames start - look how different the pose is

well what do u guys think about?


EDIT: acutally after looking further into it, it seems like he didnt charge his limit break - but it fully charged once he dealt dmg (the effect around him was the same as the one when he "charged" it to maximum before) look at this picture

so it should also be charged while dealing dmg (and blade beam isnt broken lol)

 

[Neo Zero]

after watching the trailer 9001x i just noticed that limit break is indeed manually chargable - check the last frames out after the screen goes completly white, u will notice that cloud starts charging it after using blade beam

heres a picture from the japanese trailer

also blade beam seems to have some insane IASA frames lol if its true what i saw (after blade beam there are no waves around cloud, only at the time he charges limit break after)

and also heres the last frame of blade beam before the IASA frames start - look how different the pose is

well what do u guys think about?


EDIT: acutally after looking further into it, it seems like he didnt charge his limit break - but it fully charged once he dealt dmg (the effect around him was the same as the one when he "charged" it to maximum before) look at this picture

so it should also be charged while dealing dmg (and blade beam isnt broken lol)

Are you sure that isn't just the Midgar stage materia effect. Bahamut ZERO is still going off while that happens. Let's see

Oh, wow this is actually an inanely good discovery.

Still 1, Blade Beam going off towards Pit

Still 2, Blade Beam hits Pit, a circle effect is seen around Cloud

Still 3, Pit is hit up and caught in Bahamut's attack, the circle effect stronger

Still 4, The last shot before it becomes far to difficult to tell what's going on. Unsure where his sword position is now, however there is a VERY distinct blue glow effect around Cloud, while the Red glow seems to have been fading.

And for comparison sake, the Limit Charging special

There's no mistaking it, that's the same glow and ground effect imo. Seems Cloud builds limit by HITTING with his Normal Limit Breaks (as it only charged up once Pit was hit by Blade Beam).

 

[Deleted member]

If it's the case that Cloud builds meter by hitting with his normal Limit Breaks I hope it isn't the case that he loses a full Limit charge when he gets hit like Little Mac does.

 

[Neo Zero]

If it's the case that Cloud builds meter by hitting with his normal Limit Breaks I hope it isn't the case that he loses a full Limit charge when he gets hit like Little Mac does.

Punch Out rewards you as a player by NOT getting hit, Final Fantasy it's an inevitability and part of the games mechanics. Something tells me just on merit on source material we won't magically lose limit like that. Likely just on using it and by being KO'd

 

[Hanku Hirru]

This surfaced a few days ago and it appears people are split on if it's a Jab tech or bug. If it's a tech, imagine the possibilities!

Thoughts?

 

[TTTTTsd]

Are you sure that isn't just the Midgar stage materia effect. Bahamut ZERO is still going off while that happens. Let's see

Oh, wow this is actually an inanely good discovery.

Still 1, Blade Beam going off towards Pit

Still 2, Blade Beam hits Pit, a circle effect is seen around Cloud

Still 3, Pit is hit up and caught in Bahamut's attack, the circle effect stronger

Still 4, The last shot before it becomes far to difficult to tell what's going on. Unsure where his sword position is now, however there is a VERY distinct blue glow effect around Cloud, while the Red glow seems to have been fading.

And for comparison sake, the Limit Charging special

There's no mistaking it, that's the same glow and ground effect imo. Seems Cloud builds limit by HITTING with his Normal Limit Breaks (as it only charged up once Pit was hit by Blade Beam).

YO THAT IS LEGITIMATELY GODLIKE. If he builds limit while he hits people/takes damage.....yo this character LOL.

Even having it manually charge was already good but this is what makes a character legendary. It really is like Little Mac's gimmick if it wasn't crap (I'm inclined to believe tumble won't remove Limit considering it affects his recovery).

Oh, this is good...

 

[Neo Zero]

YO THAT IS LEGITIMATELY GODLIKE. If he builds limit while he hits people/takes damage.....yo this character LOL.

Even having it manually charge was already good but this is what makes a character legendary. It really is like Little Mac's gimmick if it wasn't crap (I'm inclined to believe tumble won't remove Limit considering it affects his recovery).

Oh, this is good...

Well right now all we know is that Blade Beam does (though the rest of the normal LB's are 99% fair game). No evidence his normals or throws would though (I find it doubtful personally).

There's also the matter of shielded and whiffed specials.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Well right now all we know is that Blade Beam does (though the rest of the normal LB's are 99% fair game). No evidence his normals or throws would though (I find it doubtful personally).

There's also the matter of shielded and whiffed specials.

It'd be incredibly weird if only his B moves built up limit. I mean, maybe? But it seems oddly specific for a game like Smash. Granted I know it seems really premature to say his normals do, Smash tends to work in universals when it comes to this stuff. Not even citing Little Mac but just how the game's formulas work in general.

Again, I dunno, but I feel like if Blade Beam does it, the likelihood that it's simply based on his attacks connecting (i.e. hits, successful damage) is probably not too loose to even consider given how much mechanics and formulas in this game are universal.

 

[Neo Zero]

It'd be incredibly weird if only his B moves built up limit. I mean, maybe? But it seems oddly specific for a game like Smash. Granted I know it seems really premature to say his normals do, Smash tends to work in universals when it comes to this stuff. Not even citing Little Mac but just how the game's formulas work in general.

Again, I dunno, but I feel like if Blade Beam does it, the likelihood that it's simply based on his attacks connecting (i.e. hits, successful damage) is probably not too loose to even consider given how much mechanics and formulas in this game are universal.

My train of thought is simply how Limit interacts with Cloud. If it interacted with his normal properties, I feel they'd have made that clear, but they only show that the rest of his specials get Empowered, as well as gaining one additional special. To me then, it's logical that all his B moves build Limit in one way (Down B being the most direct charging, the rest on hit, I imagine including hitting other objects like projectiles or shields, though just guesstimate there) which you use once it's fully built on an Empowered Special, where you then begin the process again. If Normals do build it, I have a feeling the amount they build is very low compared to the B specials.

 

[TTTTTsd]

My train of thought is simply how Limit interacts with Cloud. If it interacted with his normal properties, I feel they'd have made that clear, but they only show that the rest of his specials get Empowered, as well as gaining one additional special. To me then, it's logical that all his B moves build Limit in one way (Down B being the most direct charging, the rest on hit, I imagine including hitting other objects like projectiles or shields, though just guesstimate there) which you use once it's fully built on an Empowered Special, where you then begin the process again. If Normals do build it, I have a feeling the amount they build is very low compared to the B specials.

If I had to guess I'd agree with this mostly.

I'm just curious as to if it builds upon him taking damage because if Sakurai went for anything accurate here, it will. TIME WILL TELL. But I do feel like he'll build Limit on hit, although it's safe to assume the build is more rewarding if it's a special on hit.

 

[Skitrel]

For those wanting something new to discuss. The official Square Youtube put this Cloud video out for Dissidia today.

Having watched it, I'm seeing a lot of similarities in his moveset in Dissidia to what we saw in the Smash trailer.

Worth comparing.

 

[MagiusNecros]

The only thing I can compare is the massive diffeence in attack speed between Dissidia Cloud and Smash Cloud.

To the point I like Smash Cloud better.

 

[Skitrel]

The only thing I can compare is the massive diffeence in attack speed between Dissidia Cloud and Smash Cloud.

To the point I like Smash Cloud better.

His downB in Smash appears to be his projectile in Dissidia.

He has his upB in Dissidia, it functions the same, with the choice of the downward attack.

Cross Slash uses the same FF7 cross effect.

Many animations are identical, the most obvious is his downB in Smash which you can see performed at 0:57 (the last move) in the trailer.

I'm quite sure others will notice more than I have.

 

[MagiusNecros]

No Cloud now has two projectiles in Dissidia Blade Beam and Finishing Touch. Before finishing touch linked off an attack and was untrue to source material.

In Smash only Blade Beam has projectile properties. Finishing touch is a essentially a close range melee attack but in this new Dissidia he now has a tornado projectile as well.

Animations identical regarding attacks used yes. Playstyle and overall functionality? No.

In Smash Cloud is faster, and more mobile while in Dissidia he is slow, predictable and laughably easy to block.

 

[Vyseskies]

Roll:
Start: 1.404
End: 1.416 / 1.417
Frames: 12/13

Spotdodge:
Start: 1.134
End 1.145 / 1.146
Frames: 11/12

Sorry for the question but, paying more attention on this, isnt his roll and sidestep wayy too fast? 13 frames rolling animartion is twice faster than and which are the fastest ones. So these values are based on 30fps shown on video right?

 

[Kero the Invincible]

About the first post, when you're talking about Limit Break Climhazzard, did you mean to say "expends" limit break charge rather than "expands"? Or is there some mechanic I'm missing?

 

[Shadestars]

I'm wondering about that f-air. Does it only semi-spike, like Link's Meteor Bombs which basically do nothing until the opponent is north of 50%? Why do they give him two really good ways of spiking people to their doom? Is it to make up for a lack of KO power elsewhere in his moveset, like he can't KO without Limit Break or a well-charged Smash attack? Is it to make up for him having a lot of unsafe attacks, similar to Zelda: good punishes, unsafe everything, good d-air spike? Cloud certainly doesn't seem like he has good landing frame data from aerials, so he'd do even less air-to-ground pressure than Marth. Is the projectile + good anti-air u-tilt and u-air a fundamental part of his strategy?

Why do they give him two really good ways of spiking people to their doom?

Three if you count the Climhazzard spike. Guess his hair didn't make him spikey enough as it is

Edit: Hmm, I wonder if you could cancel climhazzard on the edge with the blade facing outward... that'd be a hell of a spike....

Double edit: now that I think about it, his edgegaurd game seems absolutely insane, multiple spikes, big range, blade beam gimps, good recovery....not to mention the Limit enhancements o3o

 

[The Legendary DJXYZ]

On a high recovery, the technique described in the post above (to Climhazzard spike) definitely looks like an option. But it doesn't seem like many characters have a need to recover high, except and , so this might be a rare opportunity-based technique.